The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Nogrod]

An interesting choice indeed.

Well they both share some common traits, first and foremost the fact that they were both lured by something larger than themselves and were corrupted by that - and finally destroyed by it.

Asking why Gollum was lured by the craft of Sauron is a no-brainer - even if Gollum's story is touchy and tragic.

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects ) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)


Heh, the classical choice between the intellectual excitement vs. the emotional "being moved"...

I may need to abstain from voting this day. Let's see.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But with Saruman things get a bit more intersting. First he was lured by curiosity and knowledge (which I personally value much higher than just some dull shiny objects ) but then somehow Sauron managed to twist him. Now how come that be as they were both of the maiar? What really happened there between the two an what were they thinking? Of these Tolkien doesn't but give a few little hints...

Sauron? What? No, no, good mister! Now you are being unjust to poor Saruman! It was all only his own fault, his own achievement to fall! He met Sauron only much, much later!

Though Saruman's downfall I have always found a bit anti-climatic. Not that every major character should exit the scene with a loud bang and some stupenduos fireworks, but somehow that whole "Sharkey" -episode with his personal revenge to the hobbits is just bad looking it from the point of view of Saruman's character. (From the hobbit POV it's different; they needed the final trial for the story to end)

I actually find his end really great, this Sharkey-thing. Being completely destroyed, losing everything this way? Fascinating, I say. "A little mischief in a mean way", that summed it pretty well, and it's just great!

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him. I like Gollum (the original one, whenever I happen to discard the movie imagination of him), but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Oh my, this got me really to think again about Saruman. I have never possibly seen a more complex and more fascinating character than him.

While Saruman is in and of himself interesting, what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman. The aura of production and breeding, the design and craftswork of the Numenoreans' unbreakable tower now being used by this ultimate character completely carries me away.

Originally posted by Legate
but against Saruman, simply nobody stands a real chance.

All the way no one could dream of standing within about 50 miles of Saruman.

The word "cool" understates him.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

Ya, what he said!

++Saruman

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I would have to say

++Saruman

if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy. Gollum got sucked in by the Ring so fast, I can't help but think he was already something of a stinker at heart.

[Lalwendë]

Alright, time for me to stop being facetious.

I must make a decision and even though Gollum is a far better literary creation, I have to hold up my 'white hands' right now and admit that I find Saruman utterly cool and always have done. So if I had to live without one or indeed spend time with one of them, it would be Saruman and I'd be a fool to deny it. He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.

++Saruman

[Boromir88]

++Saruman

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature.

[Ilya]

++ Gollum

He's the only ringbearer who actually accomplishes exactly what he sets out to do.

[Nerwen]

Well... let's see... Gollum is much the more sympathetic villain, but

++Saruman

is cooler.

(Besides, I came out as him on the character quiz.)

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

Funny you should mention that because I've just decided to implement this rule, only with the slight alteration that it is my vote that carries the extra weight. Must save the precious, yesss.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

These

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

what I really find enthralling (as an addition to perfection, if you know what I mean) is the whole of Isengard and Orthanc as a stronghold, base of operations, and center of doings for Saruman.

three

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

if for no other reason than that he apparently was, at one time, a good guy.

things

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

He's just so clever and interesting with his 'Third way' of doing things, thinking he could do things his way apart from either the Valar or Sauron.

reflect clearly the variety of possibilities for which one can like Saruman: that's exactly the variety inside him which I was talking about! Many-colours, indeed...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hands down the most effective liar in the history of literature.

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

[Boromir88]

Aye Legate, and his "crows and gibbets" speech is purely a thing of beauty.

[Aganzir]

++ Saruman

The silver-tongued white-handed red-hot wizard of many colours indeed.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And skip, you may be the starter of this thread, but if you try to undermine our voting efforts, we are going to drop a Palantír on your head.

Okay, okay, those things are really heavy!

Saruman wins 9-4

Match 9 of round 1

Next up is another exiting encounter. Both are bearded, old and in possession of supernatural abilities but whereas one lives for his work, the other lives for pleasure.

Gandalf vs Tom Bombadil

[Gollum the Great]

Definitely

++Gandalf

Wielder of the Flame of Anor. Wise old counselor. Reminds my of my grandfather, full of intelligence, speaks in riddles, stern at times yet lovable.

[Groin Redbeard]

Bombadil is too silly for me. He is, at least to me, the ultimate ADD patient. Therefore I would have to pick Gandalf.

++Gandalf

I don't vote for Gandalf because I dislike Tom Bombadil (lots of people in this thread are simply voting the other way because they don't like the match up), but because I really enjoy Gandalf better than that crazy "jolly Tom". Tolkien's way of sanctifying a prophet in his myth, Gandalf shows the true selflessness of a leader, and he is the only one out of the five Blue Wizards who stay true to the original purpose of Eru. We see the best of him as a care free old wander while in the Shire (as a rule only, as Aragorn states) and we see the cunning wise wizard that he is while he executes his plan to unite the free peoples of Middle-earth to fight against the forces of evil. Yet for all that we know about him there is still a sense of mystery around him, not even Galadriel knew his full purpose.

Anyway, I think Gandalf sayed it best in the comparision between him and Bombadil when he said: "He is a moss gathere, and I am a stone doomed to rolling."

[Thinlómien]

++Gandalf

Such a lovely mix of gentle wisdom, pity, true caring for citizens of Middle-Earth and a flaring temper with more than a little "toughness". Besides, he has an incredibly funny sense of humour at times.

Jolly old Tom is rather sympathetic too, but he just can't compete with one of my all-time favourites.

[Morthoron]

++Gandalf

Bombadil's gear is just too flamboyant, and his poetry is horrid.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

he is the only one out of the five Blue Wizards who stay true to the original purpose of Eru.

I think you mean one out of the five Wizards. Only two of them were Blue, and Gandalf was certainly Grey.

Speaking of him,

++Gandalf

Another great personality, and there's lot about him to admire, and besides, there's so many tales which could be told about him, so many things about which we know just hints! (To name just the most "obvious" ones: How exactly did it go when he as in Dol Guldur? What did he do in Moria when he was there for the first time? What did he do in Angmar or Nurn?!?!) Old TB is not a bad guy, but... he just is not as interesting.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Okay, okay, those things are really heavy!

Saruman wins 9-4

Match 9 of round 1

Next up is another exiting encounter. Both are bearded, old and in possession of supernatural abilities but whereas one lives for his work, the other lives for pleasure.

Gandalf vs Tom Bombadil

Seriously, Skip, I have you pinned now. I've got your number. I know who you are.

You, sir, are the evil pixie who lives in the bottom of the machine thing that they draw numbers out of for FA Cup Fixtures and who nixes it and makes for evil match-ups.



Anyway, as much as I lurve (yeah, lurve, bleurgh) Tom Bombadillo, it has to be Gandalf as he's runner up Best Wizard Ever.

++Gandalf

[Boromir88]

Oh come on where's the TB love?

++Tom Bombadil

I don't think any other character has as many thread dedicated to him than ole Bombadil.

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags, and he eats hobbits.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Smaug , oh wait, he wasn't invited
to this contest

Well, then + + Tom Bombadil , since
he wasn't invited to PJ's movies.

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags, and he eats hobbits.

And he assaults noble Stewards of Gondor (Hey, it must be true, it's on tape)!

[Nogrod]

Olórin learned to cry with Nienna but no one knows where Tom learned to laugh.

Gandalf is just one wizard-maia - even though the greatest of them by any means - but what is Tom? No one knows where did he come from or how long has be been around?

Gandalf is weak enough to be afraid of the master-ring but Tom just toys with it.

Do I need say more?

++ Tom Bombadill

Even if silly, he's the coolest guy in the whole ME. He carries something of Aristotle's megalopsykhia with him, the highest virtue - to be enough for himself not to count his worth on the opinions of others, and secure enough to be able to hold his ground (or those he cared / were good) if challenged.

One should not step on the toes of a wizard... but even less should one make Tom angry. (Tom just sang the Barrow-Wight away... Gandalf would have needed threats, magic + fire and brimstone to that effect!)


To be honest I do love Gandalf as all of you others but we need some competition here - and Aganzir painted my boots yellow anyway!

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Besides...Gandalf is the perpetrator of the horribe "Gandalf uncloaked!" gags

All the more reason to vote for him. I must agree with Lal in that this is a difficult match up indeed.

++Tommy

His taste in women is much better than Gandalf's

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Gandalf

Because he pretty much literally saved my life. (long story, on my website)

[Nogrod]

Gandalf leads only 7-4!

[Ilya]

Oh, this is a tough call, but I gotta go

++Gandalf

Gotta love a made who can always handle white, and has the sense not to sing too much.

[Eönwë]

++Tom Bombadil

How can you not vote for him‽


edit: Yes, I'm aloud to use strange punctuation marks.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

++Tom Bombadil

How can you not vote for him!

Listen, I nearly abstained, this is getting ridiculous! I'm a Libran, this is literally torture to me.

[Nerwen]

++Gandalf

because he's one of my favourite characters ever.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

[skip spence]

++Bombadil

He's got enough confidence in his manhood to wear outlandish outfits and colour-combinations and to strut around like a fairy despite the conservative environment he is in. Plus, I've heard Gandalf beats Hobbits. Or Eats. Probably both.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I've heard Gandalf beats Hobbits. Or Eats. Probably both.

Actually, that's a misreported rumor. It's said in Mordor that Gandalf was
a "headhunter" for Smaug, sending him nice scrumptious hobbits under
the pretext of being treasure hunters until one of them, to Gandalf's astonishment, actually helped killed the worm!

note: Saruman objected to Gandalf's actions (on ethical grounds) and was known
to send messengers to try rescue hobbits from danger and bring them
safely to Orthanc.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Groin

Anyway, I think Gandalf sayed it best in the comparision between him and Bombadil when he said: "He is a moss gathere, and I am a stone doomed to rolling."

Yes, that's fitting - and when I read that passage, I'm immediately much more fascinated by the moss-gatherer. We have seen many of those rolling stones, but moss-gatherers not nearly as much.

++ Bombadil

I love the sense of mystery about him, the way no one knows what he is or where and when he came from. Yeah, Gandalf is cool and all that and I like him a lot, but he doesn't have the same intrigue as Tom. He's a trifle too hero for my taste. No can do, folks - Ol' Gandalf just doesn't interest me as much as Tom does.

[skip spence]

Is a remarkable comeback under way? Gandalf raced to a 6-0 lead but Bombadillo has clawed himself back into it and now trails only by 9-7. Tom was the first to walk the hills and fields but will he also be the last man standing? Sing up a storm Tommy!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, Skip, I have you pinned now. I've got your number. I know who you are.

You, sir, are the evil pixie who lives in the bottom of the machine thing that they draw numbers out of for FA Cup Fixtures and who nixes it and makes for evil match-ups.

Now that's just plain ridiculous! I'll have you know I'm just a regular run-of-the-mill pixie who isn't evil in any way and wouldn't dream of mixing with the draw of any competition, in association football or otherwise. Besides, pixies don't fit into lottery machines, everybody knows that! What the FA Cup and the Popularity Cup have in common though is that there's no seeding.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To be honest I do love Gandalf as all of you others but we need some competition here - and Aganzir painted my boots yellow anyway!

++ Tom Bom, jolly Tom

One of my favourite characters. His carefree attitude is something I try to remember myself - why worry about minor things? All in all he's a better role model to me than Gandalf.
I guess the most important things why I like him are his independence and freedom. I would love to live like him in a small house in the middle of a creepy forest, not being afraid of it because it has no power on him. And yes I agree with morm - his taste in women is way ahead of Gandalf, although having read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, one might want to question his means.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

You cannot vote for an enigma, that woul just be silly!

++Gandalf

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

You cannot vote for an enigma, that woul just be silly!

Well, I wouldn't say voting for an enigma is actually silly. That's actually what many people like. But still, I prefer Gandalf simply for what he is like. And speaking of it, even Gandalf himself is, from part, an enigma...

As much as everyone is, for that matter.

[skip spence]

That's it, despite a late scare Gandalf has defeated Tom Bombadill 10-8. Perhaps Tom will find comfort in Goldberry's warm bosom.

Match 10 of Round 1:

Finally it's time for the first woman to enter the competition. Eowyn, the shield maiden, is up against lore-master Elrond.

Elrond vs. Eowyn

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Finally it's time for the first woman to enter the competition. Elrond vs. Eowyn

Ummm...which one is the woman?

Sorry, was having a movie moment. Actually, I'll go with ++Elrond, who is more feminine than the manly Eowyn.

[Thinlómien]

What a difficult question! I don't know... Elrond is a great person, no doubt, but he's also a bit boring. I like Éowyn's personality and her story is most touching, but her end kind of irks me. Why does it have to be so that a woman only finds peace when she gets married and learns to accept the place society has given her? But if I put away my feminist grudgings, I actually like her, and even her story... Hmm... Must think about this.