Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[A Little Green]

Bah, I'll just vote now.

++ Groin

No proper suspicion as I have that on no one - this is based almost entirely on gut-feeling. He has been one of the least innocentish toDay and I don't quite like the tone of some things he has said.

ToMorrow I'll have an eye on at least Lommy and, well, just about everyone.

Good night darlings.


EDIT: x-ed with Fea and Legate

[Nogrod]

Okay from the beginning onwards then...

Sally looks from the beginning a bit too, how should one call it, up to the real thing? I mean maybe I'm just a paranoid but this really made me worried as Sally's second post - after a comforting nonsense-babble of her first post:

Originally Posted by Sally

I'm fairly optimistic about toDay actually. Like a couple others have said, our chances of finding a baddie aren't too shabby. And two for the price of one always makes me happy.

The problem is that once night hits a big chunk of this village is going the way of the dodo, so we best hope to indeed get baddie(s) today so they can't kill off so many in the Night.

I mean all of this is right and straight. But it's Sally saying this! Somehow the general attitude looks like it betrays Sally is not her normal self but tries something she isn't.


Also I'm a bit weary of Fea as well. Not because she brings up the rule-discussion but because she acts like a helpful and reasonable villager. Now to my experience she likes to toy around when she has nothing more interesting to do to keep her interested in the game. Now she has been ashtonishingly active for her on Day1 and soo sensible! It just cries evil to me. My only doubt is would she be that readable and is it only a change of tactics?


And to add my two cents to the discussion about the relative profit of voting the quiet ones / submarines toDay. I'm absolutely for it!

Normally we always risk just getting our numbers down by one but in this one we have a chance of bringing down the real player (however the roles are spread between them) who's tied with the submarine if we hit.

Okay. Need to take a short break. Back soon...


EDIT: X'd from my last one onwards...

[Macalaure]

I just skimmed the entire thread again to find the post in which Legate gives his reasons to suspect me as strongly as he does. I did not find it. Would you help me out, Legate? Either I completely overlooked it (I really hope I didn't - that'd be embarrassing), or I finally have a valid reason to suspect you.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My only doubt is would she be that readable and is it only a change of tactics?

A couple responses to this: the last few games I've played in, I've been absolutely swamped with school work and the deadlines were at absolutely horrid times for me. In this game, I'm awake for all but a couple hours of the day. I mean, I'm asleep for the first few hours and maybe for the last one or two, but the midsection? For the first time in ages, game time occurs when I'm wide awake and not busy. Also, midterms have passed and I'm in the lazy spot before finals become a legitimate concern. I've literally finished all the reading homework assigned for the rest of the semester for one of my classes, I'm for once that far ahead. My term paper for another class? Practically written already. I seriously have nothing better to do.

I was also cracked out on caffeine for most of today, thus leading me to not only post a lot but to start a new painting, write a story, do reading homework, clean and organize my room--

Yeah. Anyway. Caffeine + good deadline - scary schoolwork = more involved player.

Besides- I'm fascinated by Di's manipulation of us all. It reminds me of a game I'd mod. And we all know I'm interested in myself more than I'm interested in most others...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

About Lommy's list, then. I'm too lazy to look for it again, but I noticed that at almost every single point there was some kind of "seems a bit suspicious because of xxxxx, but then feels quite OK and it's silly to draw conclusions at this phase". I know we can't be sure of anything at this phase, but the way she has to emphasise it so often in order to sort of soften her points seems a bit exaggerated.

I noticed it too but didn't pay it any more attention back then - at least consciously.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I assure you with all seriousness and all understanding of the implications of the statement: if I was going to slip something, I'd do it on purpose.

I can believe that. However, let's say you were a lover who wasn't sure her counterpart could avoid slipping. It works also that way.

Originally Posted by Fea

What in the world makes you think I want to be honest?

It was a nice way to say you were suspicious.

Originally Posted by Fea

Sorry, stupid question: Lovers know each others' identities, right? They're not fumbling in the dark hoping they don't accidentally kill their counterpart?

I would assume they do. I can't see the sense in it being any other way.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Unnecessarily getting yourself provoked, I'd think... though of course nothing against your intentions to vote Mac.

I'm not. His comment really was wolfish. Now that the first bandwagon has started to form and I say I could vote for her since I've been suspecting her anyway, he suddenly finds it wolfish. I don't like how Mac's hesitating whether or not to suspect people who suspect him - or so it seems to me.

edit: xed with Mac and Fea

[Eönwë]

Is it just me, or has everyone just said- "Vote me and you're evil"?

[Nogrod]

Just adding to my comments about Fea in light of her latest one...

First I thought it looked liked her becoming more to her normal self but then this last one kind of caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Fea

Sorry, stupid question: Lovers know each others' identities, right? They're not fumbling in the dark hoping they don't accidentally kill their counterpart?

She has played if not more games than I have but definitively she's been around for a longer period. But I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other (I may be wrong though and wish to be corrected in that case). And if - and when - I'm right I'm just wondering what was that remark of Fea for as she should know it? To give the impression she is not one of any of the pairs because of her total ignorance over the basic rule? Somehow I can't bring myself to fully support even that conclusion... at least yet.

Of course Di said we will not know how the dynamics of the game will work and that is true. She might have come up with an idea about blind lovers... or then my memory or experience have just failed me.

EDIT: X'd from Fea onwards. Good to hear what you say about your energies!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

However, let's say you were a lover who wasn't sure her counterpart could avoid slipping. It works also that way.

If I'm a lover then our dear Moddess thought it would be hilarious not to tell me who my counterpart was.

[Lalaith]

Having read over the thread, here are some thoughts on the lot of youse.
First, the ones that I'm feeling ok with...
Nogrod seems quite calm and sensible.
Mac has made some good points too.
Brinniel asks a lot of questions but they are questions I'd pondered too, so I'm not terribly worried about her right now.
Eomer is nonchalant, his points are sensible and he seems ok for now...
Then the don't knows.
Gollum, no idea. Never played with him, of course.
Kitanna and Little Green...both have voted, but strangely that's not helping me get an idea of them.
Lommy, Fea and Rikae - well, I'd always be watching you girls closely... the most suspicious of you three right now, to me, is Fea.

Then there's the no-shows - McCaber, Shasta and Gwath. I think its best to leave them for now, they can die with their lovers, if they are guilty.

So, on to the ones I am finding most suspicious right now.

Legate is just being weird.

There's a group of semi-participants that I'm feeling uncomfortable about: Groin, Sally and Eonwe. Groin gives a kind of semi-analysis of a handful of players, leaving lots of people out...Sally is giving an impression of being cheerful and breezy but doesn't have the sincerity of innocence, and Eonwe's ingenue act is not quite sincere either.

And as for Aganzir's hyperactivity...could be due to a number of reasons. One thing I wondered is the mention of a Basilisk in Di's old rules post. Is Agan trying to get dreamed of, or lynched, for some nefarious purpose of her own?

My real problem is that usually I go by helpfulness as a way of distinguishing innnocence but in this game the baddies will all be very helpful, catching rival baddies. Sigh.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

If I'm a lover then our dear Moddess thought it would be hilarious not to tell me who my counterpart was.

What in the world makes me think you want to be honest?

edit: xed with Lal

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

She has played if not more games than I have but definitively she's been around for a longer period. But I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other (I may be wrong though and wish to be corrected in that case).

I've played in a lot of games, but you may have not noticed that I consign myself to 'old school' games with just wolves, a seer, and maybe a ranger or something. I hate the confusion. I've never played a lovers game before, hence my apparent idiocy.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

This comment of Mac's doesn't sit right with me and makes me more inclined to vote for him instead. It's wolfish.

No, it's not. Yes, you stated your suspicion of Rikae before, but #103 looks a lot like a wolf (or lover thereof) trying to get a bandwaggon rolling without getting her fingers too dirty.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't like how Mac's hesitating whether or not to suspect people who suspect him - or so it seems to me.

It is beyond me how it seems to you that way. I never seriously suspected Rikae. I suspected you in a bantering way in the beginning, thought you innocent-ish thereafter, and only increased my suspicion now that you started posting wolvish things. No hesitation whatsoever.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

What in the world makes me think you want to be honest?

Touchè.

[Thinlómien]

Okay, maybe I'm paranoidly self-centered, but I don't like Mac's suspicion of me because it seems so... easy. He often suspects me, and he's generally been quite good at reading me. This time, he jumps on me all too easily. It looks like an evil Mac who has found a good culprit - someone he often suspects (won't raise eyebrows) and someone he is reputedly rather good at reading (might persuade people to agree with him).

There have been interesting points against Groin and Kitanna. I'm inclined to agree but I'd rather reread and see for myself. The only problem is that it's rather late here...

I find it fascinating that first there's this wave of votes and suspicion against Rikae, and then there comes a huge wave of defending her. Makes me raise my eyebrows.

Originally Posted by Mac

I'm not comfortable with the general focus of suspicions at the moment (almost exclusively me, Rikae, Aganzir, and Lommy). Too many people got by without anybody noticing. Please, have a closer look at things each of you. There's an incredible number of submarines right now.

Ooh Mac says something I totally agree with!

Originally Posted by Greenie

Let's see... How about electromagnetic wave equations?

Wikipedia says: "The electromagnetic wave equation is a second-order partial differential equation that describes the propagation of electromagnetic waves through a medium or in a vacuum." and I can support this view 100%.

I'm entertaining myself with the thought of Mac and Agan being lovers...

Lastly, I don't like the fact that I suspect Mac and Rikae probably the most at the moment. I haven't played with them for ages and I love playing with them so I don't really want to see them go early... *grumblegrumblegrumble*


edit: xed with Agan's #125 and everything after that...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It is beyond me how it seems to you that way. I never seriously suspected Rikae. I suspected you in a bantering way in the beginning, thought you innocent-ish thereafter, and only increased my suspicion now that you started posting wolvish things. No hesitation whatsoever.

Hmph the thought of you suspecting me just stuck in my head. But what are these wolfish things you are referring to?

edit: xed with Lommy

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I've played a quite a few games myself as well, also with lovers, but I don't recall a game were the lovers would be blind to each other

They wouldn't really be lovers then, would they?
More a sort of secret admirer.

edit: x-ed since Fea #128

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hmph the thought of you suspecting me just stuck in my head. But what are these wolfish things you are referring to?

Your reaction to the two votes for Rikae and in particular your reaction to my criticism of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I just skimmed the entire thread again to find the post in which Legate gives his reasons to suspect me as strongly as he does. I did not find it. Would you help me out, Legate? Either I completely overlooked it (I really hope I didn't - that'd be embarrassing), or I finally have a valid reason to suspect you.

Now looking through my posts, to my embarassment I see I really have not been voicing that much, but I have been thinking about it from very early in the game, since this post:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Mac - joins the general joking around, but does not forget to put a quite lengthy helpful summarisation of our situation (with putting the emphasis on "our" as innocents). That might be a preventive behavior by which he is trying to prove that he is "normal", even though he is a Werelover actually.

This was the first mentioning, and since that time, I had you marked as suspicious, and I kind of counted with the fact that you are No.1 on my list, and everything I saw just made me affirm that. Then I said this:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not feeling anything especially strange about Rikae, and I have not been paying much attention to their exchanges (rather because I am really not the one for deep analysis of these exchanges), but Mac at least seemed weird to me from the beginning, and I have him marked as one to eventually vote for.

Which was quite plain, if nothing else. And since then you may have counted on that. You were just behaving all the time along the lines "I am your friend, people of Congo", the way you spoke to and about Rikae... okay, although now after reading all that again, you don't seem as suspicious to me as you did before. However there is my problem - I often reevaulate, and either for good or for bad of the concerned person, after re-reading. But now the question is whether I should take heed to this reevaluation and not rather stay behind my former opinion, for which I had some grounds.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Is it just me, or has everyone just said- "Vote me and you're evil"?

Not everybody, but I wonder if it is me who is stupid or the others around here.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Okay, maybe I'm paranoidly self-centered, but I don't like Mac's suspicion of me because it seems so... easy. He often suspects me, and he's generally been quite good at reading me. This time, he jumps on me all too easily. It looks like an evil Mac who has found a good culprit - someone he often suspects (won't raise eyebrows) and someone he is reputedly rather good at reading (might persuade people to agree with him).

There have been interesting points against Groin and Kitanna. I'm inclined to agree but I'd rather reread and see for myself. The only problem is that it's rather late here...

The problem, darling, is that you raise your eyebrows at many things and go on with many things that the crowd does, yet otherwise behaving un-conflictingly (no suspicions of your own production, so to say). I cannot say I really like that... starting to suspect Mac coming from defending yourself makes me raise eyebrows a bit.

EDIT: x-ed since Lommy

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Your reaction to the two votes for Rikae and in particular your reaction to my criticism of it.

I reacted to Rikae votes the way I did because I suspect her and rather vote for someone who has already a few votes than a suspect of mine who doesn't have at all.
I can see why you think my reaction to your criticism looks wolfish, but then on the other hand so does your criticism itself. You know I'm an intuitive player more than a rational one, and something in that post is bugging me.

Are you sure you didn't criticize me just because I said I'd actually prefer voting you?

edit: xed with Legate

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Lastly, I don't like the fact that I suspect Mac and Rikae probably the most at the moment. I haven't played with them for ages and I love playing with them so I don't really want to see them go early

I definitely agree with you there... even if you are suspicious (and silly)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As this debate is getting confusing, and I started to question myself about voting Mac, I am now starting to think more and more about voting Groin instead. But then, is one post really enough grounds? Otherwise, there will be for example Kitanna... but that is rather this Mac-defense thing, so I would rather vote Mac and see if she goes as well.

Huh. So hard to choose.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post, not that it changes anything...

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's do votes (not many, but...):

Eomer: Rikae
Kitanna: Rikae (2)
Greenie: Groin

I think that's it. It just helps for me to see them all in one place.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As this debate is getting confusing, and I started to question myself about voting Mac, I am now starting to think more and more about voting Groin instead. But then, is one post really enough grounds? Otherwise, there will be for example Kitanna... but that is rather this Mac-defense thing, so I would rather vote Mac and see if she goes as well.

While that post of Groin's is suspicious, it doesn't sound so untypical to him that it would necessarily indicate guilt. Therefore at least I would rather vote someone I suspect more, and see what to do with Groin later when he has had a chance to post more.

[Eönwë]

I should probably sleep, but I haven't got any good ideas yet.

What makes it harder is I'm afraid to accuse a gifted.

[Nogrod]

I still think the basic idea fits and there are three or four lover-pairs of which one is an innocent and another is a baddie (whatever weresalmon or wererhinoceros they are). Di said there might be adjustments, but not that there would be a total overhaul of the lovers game.

That means many baddies (and innocents with evil intent) will attack other baddies (and innocents with evil intent) as they both don't know about each other and because they wish to do away with the others.

That's all for the village to gain!

And even if we go "Hoy Bresil" -style the individual wolves would easily go after the lover of a buddy-wolf. Although Di said there are no wolves in this game which kind of confirms to me the first interpretation...


So we must also read the Days after this one a bit differently than we are used to. The normal patterns do not hold. And hopefully the carnage of the next Night will actually teach us something about the build-up of this game.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

"Hoy Bresil" -style

Hoy Bresil...?

[Eönwë]

What worries me is that there is a significant number of evil people, and if they do know each other, as has been suggested, then they might be enough to shift the votes. Now that it scary.
If not, then we might get lots of votes for different people (the lovers probably trying not vote the same as their other half) on the later days. This could mean that potentially anyone could change the lynchee.

We shall see how it turns out.





And now Nogrod seems to talk sense...

[Thinlómien]

I reread the whole thread with no apparent results.

This caught my eye though:

Originally Posted by Mac

Eonwe ~ another one who's being too nice

Too nice? I think he's rather been suspecting everyone. One more point against Mac?

And now I'm toying with the idea of lover pairs of Mac&Fea (he could really pull it off declaring her innocence like that) and Legate&Agan (they're a bit too careful in their interaction).

I'm a little tempted to vote Eomer for submarineishness in case he won't reappear.

Greenie strikes me as pretty innocent even though I really don't understand why does she always suspect me on Day1.


edit: xed with Legate's #138 and onwards...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hoy Bresil...?

Hoy Bresil...?

Others: "Hoy Bresil...?"

Nogrod: It's only a model.

All: Shh!

[Lalaith]

Guys, don't you listen to your Moddess, or you trying to be deliberately confusing?

But I do feel moved to note that there are no "Werewolves." This is a "Lovers" game

That's what she says in the Admin thread. So, no, no Hoy Bresil.

Oh, and I am also now even more slightly suspicious of Fea's veracity, when I see that she is claiming to "hate confusion."

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

If not, then we might get lots of votes for different people (the lovers probably trying not vote the same as their other half) on the later days.

Why? I see no problem with them doing that.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And now I'm toying with the idea of lover pairs of Mac&Fea (he could really pull it off declaring her innocence like that) and Legate&Agan (they're a bit too careful in their interaction).

Yeah, we both are so loyal to you, aren't we Legate my love?
Mac & Fea pair occurred to me as well.

edit: xed with Lal

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Oh, and I am also now even more slightly suspicious of Fea's veracity, when I see that she is claiming to "hate confusion."

Why do you think I only ever play really simple games and mod the nutty ones? I need everything to be obsessively laid out in front of me for me to function on a human level. I don't do so well dealing rationally with too many variables. I'd have skipped this game entirely if I didn't so badly want Di to play in my upcoming game- which is, in fact, going to be rather insane. [/shameless advertising]

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

While that post of Groin's is suspicious, it doesn't sound so untypical to him that it would necessarily indicate guilt. Therefore at least I would rather vote someone I suspect more, and see what to do with Groin later when he has had a chance to post more.

Indeed, I'd wait for him to post more too, however, what I thought was of course that it would be typical of him, but that's exactly the point. I said "that's something which a WereGroin could do" - doing something that would go well with his general behavior, but simply using it to his advantage. Nevertheless, yes, probably better to let him post more and then see what to make out of it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I still think the basic idea fits and there are three or four lover-pairs of which one is an innocent and another is a baddie (whatever weresalmon or wererhinoceros they are). Di said there might be adjustments, but not that there would be a total overhaul of the lovers game.

That means many baddies (and innocents with evil intent) will attack other baddies (and innocents with evil intent) as they both don't know about each other and because they wish to do away with the others.

Hey, wait, wait, I didn't get it probably in that case. My original thought was that there were (at least in the previous game) simply four or how many pairs of lovers, but in fact, it was more like that they were (technically) four teams of wolves by two, whose fates were entwined. Because otherwise, it has no sense to say that one of the lovers is an ordo and the other is a baddie, since they both pick a kill, and kill somebody, not? Or how is that? I don't get it.

EDIT: x-ed since Eönwë before Lommy

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Why? I see no problem with them doing that.

I edited *gasp* my post to make it understadable. Well, not really edited. Just added a bit.

Basically, my point is that because the posts are so spread out, a groou of misguided villagers or one dtermined couple could change the fate of the village.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The problem, darling, is that you raise your eyebrows at many things and go on with many things that the crowd does, yet otherwise behaving un-conflictingly (no suspicions of your own production, so to say). I cannot say I really like that... starting to suspect Mac coming from defending yourself makes me raise eyebrows a bit.

I assure you, if I was a wolf I would have fabricated some nice little suspicion of my own in order to look better. And I know I'm just raising my eyebrows at stuff, but really, what else could I do if a lot of things look a little suspicious to me but nothing really looks mightily suspicious?

And as for all this "Hoy Bresil" stuff, wasn't the game actually called "Hy Brazil"?


edit: xed with Agan, Fea, Legate and Eönwë

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, I'd wait for him to post more too, however, what I thought was of course that it would be typical of him, but that's exactly the point.

Yes, last time we (well not me) killed him before he even had a chance to say anything. At least let him defend himself.

Then again, we only account for the first half of toDay. We (or at least I) won't be able to finalise anything

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah, we both are so loyal to you, aren't we Legate my love?

Of course

Mac & Fea pair occurred to me as well.

Not to me, unless I had to reevaluate Dr. Huhlenstein's fifty-three laws on how things look and what they are.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I assure you, if I was a wolf I would have fabricated some nice little suspicion of my own in order to look better. And I know I'm just raising my eyebrows at stuff, but really, what else could I do if a lot of things look a little suspicious to me but nothing really looks mightily suspicious?

Yes, well. But sure you don't mind if I raise my eyebrows and find you a little suspicious

And as for all this "Hoy Bresil" stuff, wasn't the game actually called "Hy Brazil"?

And I always thought it was Huy Braseal...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hoy Bresil...?

Gah...

Okay.

I'm a bit suspicious of Kit's way of defending Mac.

I'm a bit suspicious of Sally's way of posting.


That I have said already.


I'd like to add the following.

Eomer's self-assured vote-post (the only one he made) bothers me a lot.

With Groin I have a problem of separating a possible blatant chauvinism out from a possible mischievous link to Legate in this game.


Fea's explanations about more time in hand and playing the old-school games is enough for me, toDay at least. She has been very reasonable toDay.

The same (reasonableness) goes for Lalaith and in a way to Brinn as well.


So a slight reason to vote:
Kit
Sally
Eomer

A slight reason to vote for being a submarine, hopefully in a pair:
McCaber
Shasta
Gwath

Of the disputed talks of the town toDay I'd prefer leaving Agan and Rikae alive toDay.

I'm very much at loss with Mac, Legate and Lommy. There are reasons why I should vote each and every one of them but I'm afraid they all are not baddies - God forbid they are! But what I said about the probable dynamics of this game we'll be much more informed toMorrow - and I really think we should have those who talk around rather than those who give us no food for thought and only need to be guessed at in random...

That said, I'm going to sleep and will try to wake up early enough to read & vote in the morning before the deadline.

EDIT: X'd after Fea's Hoy Bresil remark...

[Lalaith]

Ok, my Downs clock right now says 10.29pm. How long til deadline? I'm confused.

[Aganzir]

Well to be honest I only thought they could be a couple because Fea looked like she could possibly be someone's lover and Mac labelled her innocent to straightforwardly. Apart from that I haven't really had a look at their communication with each other, and won't do it now since I don't have time.

I'm planning to vote soon and think I could go for Mac.

edit: xed with Nog & Lal