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04-07-2008, 01:04 PM | #121 | |||
Mellifluous Maia
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"His foes were on an island in deep water" - clearly the water is a problem - which it would not be if he preferred to attack by air. "if he plunged into it" - it appears he has a choice between his plan involving the bridge, risking "plunging into" the water, and what he subsequently does (attack by air). "it would quench him before he could pass through". Now, there is no sense in saying this unless, were it otherwise, he would try to "pass through" - which means, if the water would not quench him, he would have attempted a land (or water) attack. Now, this may not be the best possible interpretation of the passage, but I haven't heard a more plausible one proposed. |
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04-07-2008, 01:10 PM | #122 | |
Mellifluous Maia
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Last edited by Rikae; 04-07-2008 at 01:56 PM. |
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04-07-2008, 01:28 PM | #123 |
Cryptic Aura
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Where was this done, please? Who stated we wanted to ignore the illustration? Who said we should pretend it does not exist?
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04-07-2008, 02:07 PM | #124 | |||||
Fading Fëanorion
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-The Dwarves, who have more of a resistance to fire (due to armour and nature) than Men, managed to injure Glaurung - under heavy losses. -An army of walking dragons destroyed Gondolin. All this they did with unprotected bellies, which makes them less effective ground attackers than Smaug. Glaurung was killed by one of the greatest men in ME-history - who had to hide and surprise-attack him. We are not told that any other dragon has ever lost his life (prior to the War of Wrath, that is). Again, I did not claim wings are useless to dragons. They add a deadly alternative attack to them, plus the many other benefits like speedy transportation and elevated perspective. Flying makes a dragon more powerful, but it is stated nowhere, I think, that it becomes their chief kind of attack. Quote:
You say it isn't so. If you do not accept it, then what other conclusion do you draw? |
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04-07-2008, 02:15 PM | #125 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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from Rikae
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from Bethberry Quote:
from davem today at 2:12 on this very page Quote:
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04-07-2008, 02:24 PM | #126 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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from Macalaure
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Although we are told that he greatly enjoyed the game of killing and hunting the people and intended to do that to those who escaped. Perhaps killing those trying to also escape by bridge was just the first round in his cat and mouse game? I really do not know for a fact and neither does anyone else. |
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04-07-2008, 02:27 PM | #127 | |
Fading Fëanorion
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About the picture: If it wouldn't show something which is contradicting to the book, nobody would be willing to discard it. You seem to try to use the picture in order to disprove the book, which is - I'm sorry - ridiculous. |
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04-07-2008, 02:32 PM | #128 | |
Mellifluous Maia
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Furthermore, why add "if he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through" if all he had in mind was a cat-and-mouse game involving the bridge (why would there be any question of him "plunging into" or "passing through" the water at all in that case?) Why explain, that is, why he can't risk falling into the water or pass through it, if that were never an issue anyway? |
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04-07-2008, 02:40 PM | #129 |
Haunting Spirit
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Why would Smaug need to land at all? I have never understood why he would need to land at all. Of course I am thinking that stealth bombers actually do better in the air than on land. I don't know if that is a fair comparison, but if I could breath fire, destroy towns and fly, I wouldn't be caught walking across a bridge.
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04-07-2008, 02:58 PM | #130 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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here is the description by JRRT in the text
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04-07-2008, 03:17 PM | #131 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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On Smaug fearing to cross the bridge:
Well, dragon legs seem very stable and low to the ground. For someone to cause this misstep, he would have to get past the fire-breathing, sharp-toothed, hungry head of the dragon to apply some force to get Smaug off balance. I don't think that Laketown had any warriors with that sort of strength and toughness.
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04-07-2008, 03:20 PM | #132 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Smaug himself could make a sudden move while under attack and execute that "misstep" all on his own. An arrow in the eye or near it could also cause him to move rather quickly and misstep crashing into the water.
Why could his misstep occur only on the docks and not on the bridge? It would seem that both present the same problem. |
04-07-2008, 03:31 PM | #133 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Going back to the first mention of Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain we find: Quote:
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04-07-2008, 03:31 PM | #134 | ||
Mellifluous Maia
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(Or are you, with the scare quotes, suggesting that you have no 'theory', but rather access to some sort of "fact" about why Tolkien brought up the issue of plunging into the water?) |
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04-07-2008, 03:33 PM | #135 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
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davem points out that perspective is wrong in one illustration. Tiny Bilbo Perhaps the next step is to examine and cross examine all of Tolkien's illustrations to see if this characteristic is present in the entire spectrum of Tolkien's illustrations. And then we could discuss the merits of perspective per se. But davem's call was based on some evidence. Ibrin provides a quotation from Tolkien himself, from the Letters: My own pictures are an unsafe guide. That tag for the link is a quotation from Tolkien; Ibrin says it is in Letter #27. Perhaps someone could check to verify if she has quoted it correctly and fairly and within context? I'll reiterate the full quotation from Tolkien just so we can see what reason she offerred for suggesting that the illustrations do not have authorial authority: Quote:
So therefore, based on the examples of these two posters, davem and Ibrin (the latter of whom StW completely ignored) would appear that the arguments of only one person at least fall into this category: Quote:
And as for Boxers and Dragons, well, let us enjoy ourselves with contemplating these possibilities:
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04-07-2008, 03:33 PM | #136 |
Mellifluous Maia
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04-07-2008, 03:37 PM | #137 | |
Mellifluous Maia
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04-07-2008, 03:46 PM | #138 | |
Fading Fëanorion
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The view I (and almost all others) presented is the only plausible one, despite all you said. If your only point is that no statement can be made, and that Tolkien isn't beyond all contrivable doubt clear in what he says, then have it. |
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04-07-2008, 04:14 PM | #139 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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davem & others
the faults on one picture do not apply to the picture of a different subject. The behavior of Smaug - and some of that behavior is inferred by you - does not mean he behaved like that in each and every case. One does not prove or disprove the other. You push on my meaning of this ... okay .... your wish is my command what does this mean Quote:
Happy now? |
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04-07-2008, 04:19 PM | #140 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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04-07-2008, 04:24 PM | #141 | ||
Fading Fëanorion
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04-07-2008, 04:47 PM | #142 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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from davem
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Smaug could have intended to destroy the bridge himself for sheer enjoyment and was thus foiled in that plan. Smaug could have intended to trap fleeing townspeople on the bridge and had hopes of incinerating many with one quick blast and was foiled in that plan. And, as I have repeatedly said, if it was his intention to go on the island he had ample space on the docks which are clearly even wider than the bridge. He did not do so. You infer that he intended to cross the bridge to justify the order to destroy the bridges. Even though that order is somewhat silly and poor military strategy against a fire breathing creature who is attacking you from the air. Its poorly, planned out and poorly written. Burn me at the stake for that. I have no doubt that if this were LOTR, JRRT would have fully fleshed it out so that it made sense. |
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04-07-2008, 05:02 PM | #143 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I'd rather have a dragon attack from the air where he can only burn. On the ground he can burn the same buildings as from the air, destroy them directly, and feed on the townsfolk.
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04-07-2008, 05:20 PM | #144 | ||||
Mellifluous Maia
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04-07-2008, 05:23 PM | #145 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It is foolish to go back and forth on this since we obviously see this so very very differently. We are repeating ourselves over and over again.
I do not see things your way. I do not see these things the way that you do. I do not make the same assumptions that you do. I do not make the same inferences that you do. You are willing to make jumps in reason and supposition that I am not willing to make. Where you see sense - I see nonsense. |
04-07-2008, 06:45 PM | #146 |
Cryptic Aura
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a violin, E flat, 10 seconds
After all this downing of the Bridge, I hope you won't be drowning in the Browning paper, Rikae.
yes indeed; it's not The Boxer; it is The Dangling Conversation. But I did appreciate the small refrain of Bridge Over Troubled Waters which two of our members played. And I want everyone to know that I could not find one pair of Lord of The Rings boxers. I found Star wars ones, and Harry Potter ones, and Shrek ones, but not one having anything to do with Tolkien. The Welsh dragon was the closest.
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04-07-2008, 07:31 PM | #147 |
Sage & Onions
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Un-bridging
Evenin' all,
at the risk of putting the cat firmly back amongst the pigeons (or should I say Dragon amonst the Lakemen), I believe the bridge as shown in the drawing of Laketown (somewhere a few pages ago, you know, the first one) is easily 'cut-able'. From the side view illustration the bridge seems impressively stoutly constructed. However, no top-view is shown. Therefore it is as likely as not that the 'road surface' along the bridge is made of big planks (I can see no other practical alternative). By all means good solid planks the size of railway sleepers indeed, but planks all the same. Now IF these are laid across the supporting beams and not 'tied in' to the rest of the structure by being jointed or nailed (which is, I think, entirely plausible, for obvious defensive purposes), then you could quite easily get a gang of chaps, or indeed chapesses, to lever them up with crowbars and chuck them over the side of the bridge. One could even simply drag the planks back to the town-end if desired. Although this would not stop individual people precariously making their way across the framework in single file (such as at Worcester in 1651), I think that it would make it very difficult for Smaug to get across. Therefore the bridge would be 'cut' (in the same way as one 'cuts' a road) and the bridge planks would be 'thrown down'. Et voila! From Smaug's point of view the town is now effectively an island. PS. Is someone running this thread for a bet?
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04-07-2008, 08:20 PM | #148 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Sorry for the digression from this fascinating discussion, but I said all that was necessary regarding this diatribe many posts ago (from my point of view, of course).
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04-08-2008, 03:14 AM | #149 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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How about if I move this thread to the Mirth forum so that it loses the rancour?!
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04-08-2008, 04:51 AM | #150 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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*artificial laughter* Of course, hobbit women would be wearing their "smalls"! *raucous artificial laughter* Esty: YES! |
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04-08-2008, 10:22 AM | #151 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I'd like to thank whomever posited the observation that Smaug may not have wanted to attack the city entirely from the air, but as there was no bridge or boat to get him to the city, he was forced into plan B, namely to burn the city and hope that the treasures therein would somehow be salvageable. He may even have let some persons go, as they would do the hauling for him for cheap, and when the treasures reached the shore, later he could gather them up along with a snack or two.
Anyway, I finally figured out how the bridge was brought down, and had to look no further than LotR. What aquatic creature was typically found living outside dwelling places which existed that could rip down large wooden structures in seconds? Why, it's the Watcher in the Water! Why couldn't the Laketown persons, like the Morian orcs, have entered into contract with a cousin of said creature? It could feed on any garbage or other stuff dropped down to it, and in return it would guard the bridge. Surely you didn't think that Bard and a few stout fellows were all that protected the town? When Smaug appeared, the creature could have easily thrown down the bridge and then hid in the safety of the deep water, 'cleaning up' those Laketown persons that were 'sinkers.'
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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04-08-2008, 10:57 AM | #152 |
Odinic Wanderer
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If one can reason witha creature like the watcher, then there is nothing speaking against your theory.
The thing is that we have absolutely no reason to think that there was such a creature, if there was then it would have been mentioned. I am absolute confident that if they brought down the bridge in some amazing or elaborate way, then it would have made the story. Since we are not told about it on has to assume that it was done in a relatively normal and uninteresting way. . . as I said before: Bridges are often thrown down, just because a bridge looks solid it does not mean that it has to take a very long time. We know that the bridge Turin let build was impossible to destroy in a hurry as it was hughe and made of stone, much unlike the bridge if Esgaroth. Their bridge was wooden and seemingly not amazingly big, Actually the fact that Tolkien points out that the bridge over the Narog is difficult to tear down, sugest that normally throwing down a bridge was not very difficult. |
04-08-2008, 11:27 AM | #153 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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"I will flood all of Middle Earth and make it a large pond. All will bow down to me and drown in despair (and all of that water)!" And just what was the origin of said Watcher? Melkor can mock, not create, and so to make a Watcher, he started with a Washer of the Water, which was a cheery creature that would scrub the undersides of Elven boats that they might not mar or stain the beaches or docks of fair Avallónë. Quote:
Surely Tolkien didn't take the time to detail the creature or the mechanism as it would have slowed the story and all. There's that pacing thing. Quote:
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04-08-2008, 12:25 PM | #154 |
shadow of a doubt
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Maybe it was just a mistake from the beginning? Through the dark and murky waters the Washer might have mistaken Frodo for a mop with that wooly hair and all. He was merely trying to clean up his pond.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 04-09-2008 at 07:14 AM. Reason: Schpelling |
04-08-2008, 03:05 PM | #155 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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To sum things up, I'd like to offer a recitation from Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy album:
I'm just trying to find the bridge... Has anybody seen the bridge? Have you seen the bridge? I ain't seen the bridge! Where's that confounded bridge?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
04-08-2008, 09:29 PM | #156 |
Odinic Wanderer
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So Alatar, lets say the watcher is unhappy with the number of dwarves he can eat at the gates of Moria. . . what does he do? For me it seems that these kind of creatures has a very limited habitat and no great possibilities of migrating.
It attacks Frodo first, but you and I know that the orcs of Moria had no idea the fellowship was comming therefor they could not tell the watcher what to look out for. How do you suppose the master would keep it from everybody else that a humongous creature was living under the town? How would he "reason" with it and not reveal it? Anyways it needed not be bad for buisness if there was a Watcher that could be reasoned with, that would only increase the safty of Esgaroth and make it a better place for trading. I appologise for not having quoted you in my reply, but it seemed like an awful work. . . . anyways In Conclusion: I am correct and win! |
04-09-2008, 06:29 AM | #157 | |
Flame Imperishable
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Characters: The watcher's third cousin, twice removed
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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04-09-2008, 06:42 AM | #158 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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In fact it could become a tourist attraction...
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04-09-2008, 07:13 AM | #159 |
shadow of a doubt
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Not so sure about that.
I can see trouble with the whole arrangement too. Just imagine the watcher grabbing some kid with a toy ring and hoisting him up the air while his mother on the bridge cries: "Try to reason with it, dear!"
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04-09-2008, 07:23 AM | #160 |
Odinic Wanderer
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but if the watcher graps a child like that then it surely cannot be reasoned with. . . and Alatar's idea based on the assumption that it can be reasoned with.
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