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#121 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Yes, but to repeat yet again, there is not necessarily a one to one correlation in the power conveyed to the Witch King or any of the Nazgul by Sauron. If this WAS the case, then why don't we hear more of the Witch King and the Nazgul back in the 2nd Age? Why wasn't the Witch King back then defeating the Numenoreans??
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#122 | |
Haunting Spirit
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We know the lesser Maija and the High Elves have a power not totally unlike the other, we have seen evidence that High Elves can endure physical conflict with the Maija - and it was physical conflict. The emphasis of 'power' in various writings of the encounters between Elf and Maija or Valar is minimal, it takes rather a more hardy standpoint on the physical prowess of those concerned. A common example of the "seemingly" weaker foe is Glorfindel. You may argue that his status as one of the Elite Eldar gives reason enough for him to triumph over a balrog, a demigod. Who can say they saw it coming that Glorfindel on the impression they had already gained of him would win? I know i thought he was a terrific character, but defeating a Balrog in a 1 Vs1, i may have doubted.
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A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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#123 | |
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#124 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Nazgul stand or fall with Sauron, naturally. But Sauron does not stand or fall with them, so this relationship is not equivalent to Sauron's relationship with the Ring. Come on, you shouldn't have needed me to explain that to you.
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Why am I answering these questions? Crack a book. |
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#125 | |||||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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Nowhere is it equated with status close or equal to that of lesser maiar.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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#126 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Which is patently untrue.
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Seriously, think before you post. Are you just trying to distract me while someone steals my belongings? Or what? |
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#127 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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My two cents: Before pitting these 'creatures' against each other in a fight, one might want to look at the creatures involved. To me, the Balrog may lose the fight due to its unwillingness to engage in battle. Morgoth's Balrogs are like bodyguards, gate wardens and subcaptains of war. When did any of them set up shop on its own? Even the Roggie in Moria just sits around reading '101 Ways of Cooking Dwarves' until Gandalf shows up. Attack Lothlorien? Naa. Attack during the Battle of Azanulbizar? Naa, just keep them pesky Dwarves from coming in the door.
Without Morgoth's and/or Sauron's prompting, the Balrog would be sitting in the corner after the bell rang. The Witch-King is another matter, having an extended resume of accomplishments pre and post wraithdom.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#128 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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#129 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#130 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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#131 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#132 | |||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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#133 | |
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I cannot believe the mods did not delete this post. I think it is time to unleash a taste of Gandalf's staff on some naughty Hobbits out there! ![]() ![]() |
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#134 | |
Haunting Spirit
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A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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#135 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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In the same spot where a balrog once fought the Witchking: adjacent to the communal outhouse by the cottage in Crickhallow (hence its geographical significance in The Lord of the Rings).
P.S. Look, Mansun, I don't know why you are so up-in-arms regarding this. It's not like the original premise of the thread was anything more than fanciful conjecture. It is rather like any such Morgoth vs Sauron vs Smaug vs WitchKing post. Given the fact that Tolkien infers that the greatest foes of the Free Peoples (and that would be Morgoth, Sauron, Smaug, et al) were most likely to work in tandem against the West and not against each other, the discussions along this line are merely idle banter. The only record of such in-fighting occurs amongst the degenerate orcs, who had no real conception of their leaders' grand schemes, or perhaps the renegade Saruman, who, coveting the Ring, rebelled against his original allies and betrayed Sauron as well.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 07-20-2008 at 11:13 AM. |
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#136 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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Morthoron, thanks for steering us back towards the topic of this thread.
Please continue discussion of 'The Balrog vs The Witch King' here. ![]()
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#137 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Legolas, please stop doing deals with Morthoron with regards to favouritism. Mods are not so mighty yet that they are above legislation and the rights of posters.
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#138 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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So, rather than waste my time trying to convince you, I shall only say I have never spoken to Legolas, sent him/her pm's, nor was I even aware that there was indeed a mod named Legolas. In addition, I shall no longer reply to your posts, as better discussions can be had elsewhere with less...drama.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#139 |
Night In Wight Satin
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,043
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You two need to stop talking to one another and get back to discussing the topic.
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The Barrow-Wight |
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#140 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Does this mean we can elect a parliament of peers to run the site? Ooh! Ooh! We could vote on things!... (the above post was entirely sarcastic, although the author believes the idea has a miniscule amount of merit)
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"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." |
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#141 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1
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#142 | |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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#143 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Ecthel, Welcome to the Downs! That image takes a bit to download; maybe you can give us some information regarding the same to mull over while we wait.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#144 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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Echtel, welcome!
What a great picture - awesome!!! Is it your own drawing? If so, congratulations, you are a fine artist! |
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#145 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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Yes, welcome to the Downs Ecthel.
And that is a picture to be proud of.
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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#146 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the caboose pulled by the unseen.
Posts: 23
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I'd say sorcerous is a word. What is 'Gift of Men'? In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time." I've barely read anything on this site in relation to its mass of information. This post is my ignoring the shallow end of the pool. What is the general consensus of the interpretation of the above quote, or any-one individual who might want to chime in with their two cents? I'm only curious about the deep end. Going back to the shallows now. Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I? Just a riddle for fun. |
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#147 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#148 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Death!
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Hi, Antaeus.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#149 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Anórien, at the foot hills of the Ered Nimrais
Posts: 9
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#150 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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As far as I remember, it was not Sauron, but Gothmog the Balrog who was head of Morgoth's army. So who of the two was Morgoth's second remains a question.
Also we don't know if Sauron had been friends with Gothmog and other balrogs back in the First Age. They might have been bitter rivals. I am not sure that Sauron himself would fare well if pitted one to one against a Balrog, even the Moria one, much less Gothmog. In the Third Age Sauron was fully incarnated, even self-reincarnated (twice) and that weakens a Maia. The Balrog was likely still a shape-shifter. Sauron might have won, but it would cost him dear. Quote:
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Nothing to look forward to, thus the Witch-King must have been much more reluctant to die than any mortal Man. He never fought against a stronger opponent when he could help it. As for mortal Men, they were not as weak as some tend to think. Three Men killed a dragon (Turin, Fram and Bard), yet we know of no elf who had achieved the same. Beren fought Celegorm and Curufin and was in Angband, there were Turin, Tuor Elendil... but you know the story. The Witch-King still had the same body he was born with. Albeit invisible, he had the high stature and strong muscles of a High Numenorean lord - and those were quite similar to Elves: Quote:
I would say he had some chances against the Balrog - at least to make it even. ![]() Last edited by Gordis; 08-27-2008 at 01:45 PM. Reason: "Balrog" spelled wrongly |
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#151 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Um... Gordis... what's a Barlog?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#152 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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Well, sorry, I often tend to type rl instead of lr . Another typical mistake of mine is "Erlond"
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#153 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the caboose pulled by the unseen.
Posts: 23
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I wish I had read the books. I watch the movies everytime they come on. I always read for escape and that ended long ago. I find it a shame that I can't sit down with a book anymore. Now its just study all the time. Even when I purchase books, I go online to read them. I'm a bit rediculous that way. I think I read on this forum that Gandalf is a maia, so my question is now not relavent. I like effortless grace, thanks for the reply. |
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#154 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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Balrog vx WK
If the Witch King had to fight a Balrog I would think that the Balrog would win. I don't believe the WK would ever consider doing such a foolish thing but if he had to the Balrog would have a better chance of winning. No man can kill the WK but that leaves a lot of things that can. I always wondered why elves hadn't killed the WK....because they don't belong to the race of men....or if it was refering to a man same thing...
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#155 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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#156 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#157 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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That's right, he saw Glorfindel coming and he blew town...
Also, in my opinion some have misread the encounter between the Witch King and Gandalf in the books (Peter Jackson for sure)--I think the WK decided to postpone the matchup. Hearing the horns of Rohan is not much of a reason to leave...
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#158 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
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Yes, that is the reason why Glorfindel didn't kill him, obloquy. But you know quite well that Glorfindel was no average Elf. Actually, the reincarnated Elf was quite unique - closer to Maiar in strength.
In Rivendell there were but few who could openly ride against the nazgul - most likely only three (see Glorfindel's words explaining his presence on the Great Road to Aragorn). The rest of the Elves were hardly more capable than a Man to withstand a nazgul. At least none had tried: Quote:
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The WK always hated to put his life in danger - and not because of cowardice, as I have tried to explain in my previous post: Quote:
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#159 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar. Gandalf was not overly impressed when he explained that Frodo had seen "an Elf lord revealed in his wrath." In any case, the distinction you've drawn between Glorfindel and "the Elves" is a false one: if Glorfindel had slain the Witch-King it would not be unacceptable to say "the Elves killed the Witch-King," so in this case it is also rightly said that the Witch-King fled from the Elves. He did flee specifically from Glorfindel, but Glorfindel was not the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.
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#160 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,635
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The Witch King's entire army was destroyed, I don't think that gives him much reason to stay.
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
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