WWJ IX: Psychotic Penguins: The Crossing of Helcaraxë

[the phantom]

Here I am, with just minutes to spare!

For those of you wanting my to explain things- you'll just have to wait. My schedule has just been too rough today. If I'm alive tomorrow I promise I'll answer any silly little question you have about me.

At this time, I am unwilling to vote for Firefoot, Jenny, Spawn, Lalaith, and Mac. They could be WPs playing extremely well (in which case I'll be onto them soon enough), but I think it's more likely that they are innocent.

Now, Boro and Anguirel- one of them is a WP. Maybe both. Who knows? They've both done a couple things to make me suspicious. Boro has displayed a certain trait in such a way that it reminded me strikingly of myself when I've been a Wolf in the past.

I will vote for....

+ + Boro

Sorry if you're innocent, old boy, but you just struck the wrong chord with me in my hurried read-through of the day's events. If I read more slowly and carefully maybe I'd clear you, but alas, I haven't the time.

Phantom are you aware that you have again placed an arrow in your posts?

Yes.

Are you trying to make yourself look good?

I don't have to try.

Or is this a plan to make people think you are gifted?

Nope.

I always use arrows. I've had arrows next to my posts for... oh... almost four years on the Downs.

I think You would indeed make a good and well played stinky Cobbler!

Thanks! I readily admit that I would absolutely love to be a Cobbler some time, but I'm not the Cobbler in this village.

Good luck surviving the Night everyone.

[Kitanna]

--Anguirel
++Boromir

[Lalaith]

Ok, I think I'm safe. Poor Kitanna, I'm sorry you got dragged into this.

[Roa_Aoife]

And Lal is safe! Good job Naria! Boromir now has 5 votes.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Ok, I think I'm safe. Poor Kitanna, I'm sorry you got dragged into this.

I figured you were innocent, so I planned to retract my vote for myself at the last minute even before you came forward. You'll be safe for at least one more night.

[JennyHallu]

Way to go, guys. I'd have helped, but I already used my retractable.

[the phantom]

*gasp*

Wow. A lot happened while I was rereading the first couple pages and writing my last post. The parts about Lal and Boro probably sound a bit stupid now that we know the facts.

[Thinlómien]

Please stop voting and discussing now.

Boromir's death up soon.

[Roa_Aoife]

That was the most nerve-racking ten minutes of my month.

EDIT: Cross posted with mod again. I have to stop that.

[Thinlómien]

They had been informed about their horrid situation by the Parrot when they reached the Great Hall. Had they been humans, they would have been at each others' throats in minutes. There would have been the usual banter of Men, accusations thrown randomly around and people offended by others’ harsh words and attitudes.

Happily humans hadn’t yet been invented.

And behold! These noble Elves sat around the table in the Great Hall and started a civilized and learned discussion about possible options and theories – even speculating the nature of theories in general and their usefulness. There was also some debate on the nature of the horrid bird-creatures haunting them, arguments concerning the theory of probability and the correct mathemathical deductions from it and naturally stories of old were recounted.

“I knew those beastly little birds were no good the minute I laid eyes on them! I wanted to beat them off the ice, but noooo... you all said ‘Oh, they're cute, don't hurt them’ and ‘They're just pulling us to safety’”, began the phantom.

All the Elves hadn’t had similar feelings though:
“Those poor pretty penguins...I just never expected they might be evil!” Jenny said, evidently shocked.

“I have failed in my duty to protect the Lady Eonwe, and I am greatly shamed for it” Roa, Elenwë’s personal guard, admitted, “I will try to regain my honor by taking revenge on the beasts who harmed my mistress.”

“Failed to protect the "Lady Eonwe", huh? I believe you meant "Lady Elenwë". Are we preoccupied a bit there Roa?” Eonwe replied, pulling a face to her – clearly recalling the numerous times in the past he had been taken for a female.

“I say we get all of this over with quick and kill EOMER! Yar! Hahahahahahahaha!” Dimwë the half-wit suggested. Then, with a sigh, she continued: “Ha. Er, what was that? Well pffifle it all.”

“Well, this is all very civilised”, Lalaith commented.

And for a while it continued in a civilised manner as especially Boromir and Roa were entangled in a debate.

“Roa there is a common misconception about theories, everyone seems to think it's just baseless and preposterous. Now a true theory is a hypothesis based UPON facts. So, the facts are sitting out there and then based on those facts you form a hypothesis which = theory”, defined Boromir.

“As I stated previously- I said I wasn't one for theories, but I never said don't state them. I did, however, say that we should be wary of baseless arguments, because they are, in fact, baseless”, argued Roa, “The truth is, you can postulate all day long, but in the end hard evidence, like what is provided in summaries and analysis, can't be denied with any sort of reasonableness, unlike a theory which can be shown false.”

“There's a difference between going through every post on each person and reciting what they said (which is a summary) and going through the posts and staying one's feelings on everyone (which I would call analysis)”, Boro replied with yet another definition.

“While theories are supported by facts, they are not, in themselves, fact, and someone who seems eager to have us adhere to one theory as fact is directly misleading us”, Roa claimed.

The debate went on and on. Some of the Elves found it a bit boring, but Boro and Roa obviously didn’t.

“I say we lynch Lalaith. She tries too hard to seem helpful”, Encaitare suggested.

“Nah, let’s lynch Kitanna. She’s too careless”, spawn disagreed.

“No! Boromir is the most suspicious. He’s over-defensive”, Lalaith said.

All of them got some support, especially lynching Lalaith.

When the situation started to look quite bad for her, she sighed: “An innocent Lalaith, might, as Ang so nicely says, be an asset to the village but a Seer Lalaith is definitely so.” She added: “Boromir is a werepenguin, by the way.”

“Oohh! You tricksey”, Valier cried, “Let’s kill him!”

“Alright”, Macalaure agreed.

“Let’s kill Lalaith – no, let’s kill Boro!” Naria dropped in suddenly, a bit confused.

“Yes, let’s cast him to a gorge!” the phantom called.

“And let’s chain him first so that he can’t escape” added Kitanna.

They carried the chained Boromir to the cleft they had marked when they had gotten ashore last evening. As they reached the cleft, they felt their burden lighten. To their horror they saw Boromir morph. He shrunk and started to grow black feathers, his arms changed to little wings and his eyebrows became long and yellow.



Scared, the Boro-penguins carriers dropped him down. The Rockhopper penguin faced them defiantly, ignoring his chains. “I still say that a summary and an analysis are not the same thing”, he screaked.

“That’s enough!” Roa shouted, “Push him down!”

“Down with the werepenguins!” Lalaith agreed and helped Roa push the Rockhopper into the void.

He screamed as he fell.

~ The Dead ~
Nogrod - a troubadour, singer – mod, blowed up in the Big Bang on Night1
Thinlómien - a troubadour, harpist – mod, blowed up in the Big Bang on Night1
Boromir88 - The Mouth of Turgon – werepenguin, cast into a gorge on Day1

~ The Living ~
Anguirel - Lalwende's semi-canonical lutenist and Findis's demi-canonical flautist
dancing spawn of ungoliant - animals' dung cleaning specialist
Diamond18 - Dimwë the half-wit second cousin of Elenwë
Encaitare - A standard-bearer
Eonwe - Turgon's herald
Firefoot - Aredhel's friend
JennyHallu - An Embroiderer, lost, not related
Kitanna - servant who empties and cleans chamber pots
Lalaith - Aredhel's tutoress
Macalaure - Turgon's nephew and part-time-repentant kinslayer
Naria - Family's goat herder
the phantom - Ecthelion's hotheaded nephew and personal squire
Roa_Aoife - Elenwë's personal guard
Valier - Elenwe's personal chamber maid

Night 2 begins now.

Werepenguins start PMing.
Seer, ranger and penguins send your picks to Nogrod.

[Nogrod]

The Chinstrap was restless. One of the penguins was already dead, after only one day.
“We’ll all die soon. The Master’s plan is madness”, the Chinstrap muttered, walking in circles on the basement floor.
“No we don’t. We have the wit to stay alive. Only, of course, if no Rockhopper-like foolishness is performed”, the Emperor remarked coldly, entering the room.
“I think he was brave”, the Chinstrap feebly disagreed, but the Emperor didn’t bother to pay attention.
“Now, let’s go. We have an operation to accomplish.”

As the penguins reached the corridor from different directions, they saw just what they had expected to see. Kitanna was standing in front of a door leading to one of the bedrooms, her beautiful Elven ranger’s sword unsheathed. As planned, the Chinstrap started towards her easily, waving its head from side to side cheerily, looking as innocent as a penguin can look.
“You won’t get her!”, Kitanna yelled and took a step towards the Chinstrap, raising her sword to a swing.
“It’s not her we are after. It’s you.”, the Chinstrap answered politely.

Damn we don’t have the Rockhopper anymore, the Emperor cursed to itself, jumping a bit clumsily to peck Kitanna’s neck from behind as her attention was drawn to the Chinstrap. Still the Emperor managed to hit Kitanna to a nerve and stunned her immediately. The Chinstrap was nervously glancing around as The Emperor started the logical operation. Slowly it peeled the layers of Kitanna’s mind with the help of “the Methodological Doubt”. Finally, after putting under doubt all her earlier sensations, memories, affections and beliefs, it got to the roots it had been searching for. To the extreme certainty of one’s existence offered by the link between matter and mind, the assurance of feeling to be here and now. The Emperor snapped that link off with an argument on behalf of the soul’s autonomy and grinned foully. The totally disconnected soul of Kitanna’s vanished in a puff of logic.

The Chinstrap was looking at the now soulless body of Kitanna in amazement and then asked somewhat apologizingly “So she’s not there any more, right? Just like that? But how...?”
“You see. No matter means no extension and no extension means not occupying a place in space. And before you ask it, no I don’t know what happened to her soul – I only know that logically it can’t be in any “place” any more, and so not in her body, or anywhere around either. And that’s enough for us. Lost. Just vanished!” The Emperor answered almost patiently. Then its beak made something comparable to a smile “We’ll get back to bed now, but you surely should pay a visit to the Master’s lectures one day?”
-------------------------------

When the Elves woke up, they were dreading what would they find. They came out to the corridor, and found one of them missing.
“Where’s Kit?” Jenny, the lost Embroiderer asked worriedly.
“I fear she has been killed by the maniac birds”, the Chamber Maid Valier answered.
“No, there she comes!” the semi-demi-canonical musician, Anguirel, cried out, pointing to the stairs.
To their relief, they saw a bruised Kitanna climbing up the stairs.
“Oh, Kit, we were so worried about you! I’m so glad to see you ali...iv...” Firefoot called, stopping suddenly. She had noticed the same thing as all the others. Kitanna wasn’t normal. Her eyes were empty, and she was tumbling with every step. Never before she had been that clumsy; her occupation as a servant who empties and cleans chamber pots had required the ability of walking in stairs without fumbling.
“Kit, what has happened to you?” the Herald Eonwe asked, terrified.
There was no answer. Kitanna turned and started walking towards the wall.
“No, Kit, stop!” her kind of colleague spawn cried, but that had no effect. Kitanna tumbled head first to the wall and fell.
Lalaith, the tutoress, ran to help her up. She forced Kitanna to face her and asked “What’s wrong, Kit?” There was no answer, only an empty, mindless stare. No word, no expression, no recognition. No one in her.
“Braindead, hehe. I’m not the most stupid one anymore. Haha! Me wiser than Kit? Mwahahaa”, Dimwë the half-wit commented, voicing the fact all the others had feared.
“I’m afraid it’s more than that! She’s a zombie, a living dead, a wrap without a content, an elf body without a soul to inhabit it.” Said the horrified phantom, “I said these creatures are made by Melkor!”

The shaken elves stood there, quite at loss as to what to do with Kitanna’s animated, soulless body. It seemed to walk around slowly by itself, crushing and tumbling on everything on its way. As long as it moved it would had felt wrong to bury it, but then again, without a permanent watch it would just hurt itself even more. No one liked to figure out how “she” would look like in the evening with all the bruises...

“Breakfast. Downstairs. Breakfast downstairs”, croaked the familiar voice of the green parrot from the Great Hall.
“Naria and Roa, you are used to take care of the others. Could you bring that one down with us?” asked Encaitare, “I’m confident only with bearing standards.”
Just as they were all starting downstairs Lord Turgon’s nephew, Macalaure, noticed Kitanna’s ranger’s sword at the floor. It had gone totally unnoticed so far. He picked it up and yelled after the others “Did you see this? We’ve lost our hidden protector!”

No one disagreed the gloominess of the news.

~ The Dead ~
Nogrod - a troubadour, singer – mod, blowed up in the Big Bang on Night1
Thinlómien - a troubadour, harpist – mod, blowed up in the Big Bang on Night1
Boromir88 - The Mouth of Turgon – werepenguin, cast into a gorge on Day1
Kitanna - servant who empties and cleans chamber pots – ranger, body and soul separated by Cartesian Dualism on Night 2

~ The Living ~
Anguirel - Lalwende's semi-canonical lutenist and Findis's demi-canonical flautist
dancing spawn of ungoliant - animals' dung cleaning specialist
Diamond18 - Dimwë the half-wit second cousin of Elenwë
Encaitare - A standard-bearer
Eonwe - Turgon's herald
Firefoot- Aredhel's friend
JennyHallu - An Embroiderer, lost, not related
Lalaith - Aredhel's tutoress
Macalaure - Turgon's nephew and part-time-repentant kinslayer
Naria - Family's goat herder
the phantom - Ecthelion's hotheaded nephew and personal squire
Roa_Aoife - Elenwë's personal guard
Valier - Elenwe's personal chamber maid

Day2 has now begun.

Penguins stop PMing.
Everybody start discussing.

[Lalaith]

Good morning/evening, fellow elves and werePingus.
Well, it is as I feared. Poor Kitanna, a hollow, non-existential shell of her former self. It is good that we got a penguin but not so good that we had to out both the ranger and the seer on the way.
Well, on to the business of toDay.
Firstly, and most importantly: the person I dreamt of last night was not on the evil side. What else s/he might be, I will of course not divulge. The question is, whether should I reveal the identity of the elf in question.
I am inclined to reveal - even though, now Kit is no longer among us, it endangers the individual concerned. Because it will give the innocents someone to rally round toMorrow, after I am dead. However, I would like to hear a few opinions first.

Secondly, and less importantly, I’d just like to explain, in case some of you were shaking their heads at my recklessness yesterday, the strategy I was trying to carry out – a strategy which alas backfired. In the past, if I die before the end, it is usually at the hands of the wolves rather than the lynch mob, because I am generally considered innocent. So in an attempt to ensure safer nights, I tried to pick a few fights and garner more suspicion during the Day than I usually do. I also thought that voicing my suspicion of a WP might make the WPs more reluctant to kill me, even if I didn’t succeed in getting the WP in question lynched.
However, I was clearly a little too successful on the suspicion front..
...speaking of which, Diamond, my dear old bean, are you familiar with the works of Douglas Adams? I am starting to feel like the bowl of petunias (aka Agrajag) to your Arthur Dent.
I’ll come back with more once I get some feedback on the revelation question.

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, after what happened yesterday, I can't say I'm surprised at Kitanna's death. I assume Lal will tell us her dream when she signs on. Even if she dreamed of an innocent, we at least have decided the were-penguins' moves for the next two nights. Well done, Kitanna and Lal.

In the mean time, I'm going to go back and sort Boromir's reactions to others, and other's reactions to Boromir, and I encourage others to do the same.

EDIT: Cross-posted

Lal, if you think the person is likely to end up lynched, reveal them. otherwise, it might be pointless. However, keep in mind that the goal of the individual villager is not survival forself, but survival for the village. If you can keep us from lynching an innocent person it will help us narrow the field of suspects, if even by a little.

[Valier]

I agree I think you should tell us Lalaith who the Ordo is unless they are gifted. that will clear up at least something. It totally sucks that we have virtually lost two of our gifteds on the first day, but at least we got a WP in there. If we know another innocent it may help in narrowing this down.

[Roa_Aoife]

Actually, if the person is the hunter, you should definitely tell us who they are but not tell us that they are the hunter. The hunter is no good unless they get killed. Otherwise, I don't think it will hurt the village to have a known innocent.

[the phantom]

Tell us, Lalaith.

Sure, that guarantees the WPs will kill him/her, but at least the village will have one person tomorrow that has an agenda they can trust, and can rule out one person when rounding up suspects.

Kitanna died to give you another dream. You might as well tell it. We'll look like idiots if, three days down the road, we lynch someone and after the game we learn that the person was a proven innocent.

[the phantom]

Just so everyone knows, it was primarily this post that made me suspect Boro of being a WP. There was just something about the way he listed his suspects and the way he addressed their guilt and innocence that set off an alarm. When I read posts, I try to look past their actual words and get a feel for what they're really saying, or where they are trying to lead me.

I didn't really have time to do that yesterday, but when I skimmed that post by Boro, it was like I didn't even have to try and interpret it. I'm guessing it's because he and I are similar in some ways and also because the two of us have been Wolves together in past villages. His post said to me "I'm a WP and I'm trying to hide my fellow WPs on my lists, trying to put some seeds of accusations in the minds of others without coming out and doing it, trying to sound generally positive about people so as to not attract a backlash, and definitely trying to show how truly clueless I am as to the identity of the WPs."

It reminded me of my thoughts when I've been a wolf.

I picked up on that sort of mood a bit from Ang too which is why I listed him with Boro as a suspect near the end of yesterday.

Right now I'm trying to analyze the voting order. I'm thinking I'll have time to do that and post some thoughts a bit later.

Any theories about the Boro post I linked to, and where on his lists he put his fellow WPs?

[Macalaure]

Finally some time to really read through everything that has been posted yesterday. I think I like nights, if only there wasn't this, well, bloodshed at the end of it. *shudders*
Poor Kitanna. I regret ever having voted for her. She wouldn't have revealed herself if I didn't.

One thing that troubled me when I reread, was that known villain Boromir88 was very quick at calling me innocent, for no real reason. Now I realized that, too, Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today). Interestingly, except Firefoot each of them is on the top half of my suspicion list. On the other hand, spawn and Valier, who are in the lower half, raised more or less reasonable concerns about me.

Let's have a word about Anguirel.
He defended the vicious Boro against Roa. Maybe, like admittedly myself, he was just fond of Boro's innocence and found, again like me (though I didn't write about it), Roa's points to be weak. Then came Post 84. So Boro didn't need to defend himself, yet Ang does so for several posts? Irony? A slip? Maybe...

But later he says he doesn't like Lalaith to be lynched, at a time, when Boro was still/already in danger.

Then he voted for Kitanna. But then, of course, I did, too.

I hate people who are suspicious and unsuspicious at the same time. It makes me suspicious about them.


Now, this was supposed to be followed by an elaborate analysis on why I don't believe Kitanna to be the true ranger. So much for that. I still don't understand why she revealed herself, she wasn't pressed so severely. She could be alive now and still saved Lalaith.


Lalaith, whether you reveal the innocent or not, I don't think we will rally around him/her. Could be the cobbler, after all.
I agree on Roa. Don't tell us whether s/he's the hunter. That will give the penguins something to chew on and the innocent a chance not to be killed this night.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Firstly, and most importantly: the person I dreamt of last night was not on the evil side. What else s/he might be, I will of course not divulge. The question is, whether should I reveal the identity of the elf in question.
I am inclined to reveal - even though, now Kit is no longer among us, it endangers the individual concerned. Because it will give the innocents someone to rally round toMorrow, after I am dead. However, I would like to hear a few opinions first.

If it was me, go ahead, because I have this feeling I'm more useful as a half-witted known innocent than an unwitting cobbler stumbling around, as I seemed to have been yesterDay. If you dreamed of a different ordo, I really can't say.... I suppose, if I were you, I'd keep mum unless it seemed that person was about to get lynched. If it's the Hunter, I'd keep mum either way, I think, because they might have a good chance of nabbing a Penguin should they be lynched. But, as I'm not the Hunter, they may have a different opinion. So I'm rambling pointlessly. *sigh* The one time I was a Hunter I was rather suicidal and it turned out badly, so maybe sparing the Hunter from doing something stupid (apologies to our Hunter, whoever you may be, you smart person you) is worth a reveal.

By the way, now that I see you're the Seer, your strategy yesterDay makes perfect sense. I should have seen it, or at least guessed it, before you revealed, but I'll plead general paranoia and temporary stupidity due to being time strapped.

However, I was clearly a little too successful on the suspicion front..
...speaking of which, Diamond, my dear old bean, are you familiar with the works of Douglas Adams? I am starting to feel like the bowl of petunias (aka Agrajag) to your Arthur Dent.

Yes, I am familiar with them. I've read them all! I know Arthur Dent very well (and identify with him endlessly) but the bowl of cherries is slipping from my memory.

I bookmarked all of Boromir's posts, and intend a read-though/analysis. It is a bit unlucky to have two of our gifteds revealed and one down for the count, but on the up side, I now I have plenty of solid info to go on, which makes me feel less like whimpering and more like analyzing.

EDIT -- X-posted with, like, everyone since Lal. Also, bad English, and not the musical kind.

[the phantom]

Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today)

I'll answer that later. Er... actually, I suppose I have time right now.

My response to you dates back to a Werewolf plagued village long ago in which my ancestors lived (WW III). A fellow by the name of Fordim put forth a Seer protection plan, and the responses it got were interesting. My ancestor was an Innocent in that village, and tried as hard as he could to determine if the plan would truly help the Seer (because as an Innocent he obviously cared about the Seer's well-being).

For a time he went along with it just to test reactions, but then came out strongly against it and pointed out the odds of someone making an incorrect dream declaration, thus narrowing the Seer list for the wolves.

You, Mac, did the same exact thing yesterday. You went out of your way to point out the danger of the plan, even going so far as to do a probability calculation. In other words, you were behaving like me when I was innocent and a similar plan was introduced.

That's why I quickly moved you into the innocent column.

[Lalaith]

That's why I quickly moved you into the innocent column.

And you, my dear phantom, have been moved into mine. I dreamt of you last night, and as I seem to have your permission, I reveal this now.
No Mac, phantom cannot be a cobbler, the rules for this game state that if I dream of the cob, I am informed of the fact. But whether phantom is anything more, I leave for the penguins to find out, if they dare.
I thought long and hard about who to dream of, as this would be my last. In that horridly churlish and ungrateful spirit that WW breeds in one, I pondered on both my allies of yesterday, Ang and Roa. If either were a WP who suspected my pursuit of Boro as Seerish behaviour, it would make them look very good to either defend me, as Ang did, or help me pursue my quarry, as Roa did.
Of course, both have perfectly good alternative reasons for their actions. I have had reason to be grateful for Ang's chivalrous nature in past villages, so his defence of me was not unexpected. Roa could easily have picked up on dodgy stuff in Boro's posts off her own bat, as Phantom has just explained he did.
So in the end I chose Phantom for the following reasons:
1. Because I worried about his "whoops I didn't read all the thread" vote for Boro, it made him look rather good, and therefore, in my eyes, suspicious.
2. If he turned out to be innocent, and thus the known innocent on Day Three, he would probably encourage the village to do something sensible.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

One thing that troubled me when I reread, was that known villain Boromir88 was very quick at calling me innocent, for no real reason. Now I realized that, too, Ang, Diamond, phantom and Firefoot thought me innocent, all for little or no reasons (I'm quite curious about what tp might bring up today).

Hmm, well, I can't speak for others, but you just seemed a bit too guileless and overt in all your opinions/thoughts and that's why you felt innocent to me. Problem is, I felt more or less the same way about Boromir. So, if it makes you feel better, I am now paranoid about you.

But seriously, it is quite easy for a newbie to be very quiet and sail along for a bit on the "newbie" card. People will chalk it up to the person being cautious or overwhelmed, and magnaimously "give them a chance" for at least a few days. So, if a newbie is a wolf, their compatriots may council them to take advantage of this and lay low no matter how competent or comfortable they may actually feel. You didn't do that, hence, I didn't see much contrivance in your posts. You seemed to be operating on your own.

All of which explains my thinking yesterDay. Boro's guilt has shaken my confidence in my gut feelings from yesterDay. The one thing I did get right was Kitanna, though. I knew she wasn't being careful and quiet enough to be her usual evil self, but then, I have experience with Kitanna. Still, I'd like to think that if I'd been thinking clearer I would have seen through Boro. *grumble grumble*

Lalaith, whether you reveal the innocent or not, I don't think we will rally around him/her. Could be the cobbler, after all.

No, s/he couldn't. Says so in the roolz.

Originally Posted by Roolz

In this game, the cobbler will be seen as the cobbler by the seer when dreamed of, but counted as an ordo in the tallies.

edit, X-posted with tp and Lal

[Lalaith]

For Diamond, with reference to this and the previous WW game...(look under Agrajag)

(It came to mind when I said "oh no not again" yesterday. It was what the petunias said as they fell through space...)

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

For Diamond, with reference to this and the previous WW game...(look under Agrajag)

(It came to mind when I said "oh no not again" yesterday. It was what the petunias said as they fell through space...)

Oh dear, yes, now I do remember. Happily, though, I haven't actually suceeded in killing you either time. Does it mean anything that I wouldn't have voted for you that last day, had I actually showed up in time to vote?

[Roa_Aoife]

This is a quick summary of Boromir's reactions and other's reactions to him. I've noted all our "knowns" and listed the overlapping behavior. If I've made a mistake in someone's view on the matter, I apologize (this was done quickly). Please feel free to correct it as needed.

NOTE: This is as things were previous to Lal's reveal (except for the phantom, as he crossposted his suspicion with the reveal and all the chaos that ensued)

People Boromir Suspected

Lal
Roa
Kitanna
Ang

It should be noted that two of the above are known innocents

People Boromir though innocent

Valier
Mac
Jenny
Spawn
Eonwe

People Boromir wasn't sure about

phantom
Firefoot
Naria
Encaitare
Diamond

Note: one of the above is a known innocent

People who suspected Boromir

Lal
Roa
Phantom

Note: Two of the above are known innocents

People who thought Boromir innocent

Valier
Ang
Jenny
Diamond
Mac

People who didn't know either way

Eonwe
Naria
Kitanna
Spawn
Firefoot
Enca

Note: one of the above is known innocent

Overlaps

Mutually suspicious

Lal
Roa

Note: One of the above is known innocent

Mutually Trusting

Valier
Jenny
Mac

Mutually Ignored/ Unsure

Firefoot
Naria
Eonwe
Enca

[Lalaith]

Oh, and one other thing, before I go:
Mac, you say that Kitanna didn't have to reveal herself. Well, I can see why she did. Things were getting very fraught, right up at deadline, and we were considering falling back on lynching her if people didn't come forward to lynch/retract on Boro. I wonder if at least one of the people around at the time was a WP, biding their time to see which way the votes were going. It was looking pretty good for the WPs at one point, both the front runners (ie Kit and I) in the voting being innocents.
Any thoughts, elves?

[Naria]

Well this looks awfully grim for us. Yeah we caught a wp, but at the seer's and ranger's expense. And now one of the two(kitanna) is dead toDay. Not good at all. Btw can anyone answer one question that has been confusing me since it happened. Why did Kitanna feel the need to reveal herself? Hmmmm....maybe I'll find the answer myself when I go back and reread everything. I'll be back after I'm done.

[Macalaure]

Thanks to the phantom and Diamond. This now may look suicidal, but I think I would have done the same if I had some secret feathers. I couldn't have remained quiet, and messing up a plan by not just saying NO (like Boro and Ang(!) ) but giving random pros and cons - that's me.

Oh, and I am overwhelmed. I'm just acting.
You seem to see hints in posts that I can't even see when pointed out.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, and I'm going to need a mod ruling on this one, if I remember correctly since the Cobbler is an ordinary villager, if the Seer dreams of the cobbler all the seer is told is that person is innocent. Since the cobbler is a villager...just a twisted villager.

Somehow, this kept sticking in the back of my head. Curse you, penguin!

What troubled me about Kitanna was that in one post she said she saves her retraction for possibly retracting on herself, and in the next it's "I need to remain alive - only I can save Lal."
Made no sense to me, but doesn't matter anymore, now.

EDIT: Well, goodnight. Read you tomorrow.

[Roa_Aoife]

Why did Kitanna feel the need to reveal herself? Hmmmm....maybe I'll find the answer myself when I go back and reread everything. I'll be back after I'm done.

Well, it started with Ang, previous to Lal's reveal, who decided to try to lynch Kitanna to save both Boromir and Lal. Mac joined it, though he'll have to speak for his own reasons. After Lal's reveal, we were concerned, since Lal was leading the votes and there wa so little time left, that we would lynch our seer. At that point, Kitanna was second in votes, and she said that if enough people didn't show up to vote Boromir, she would change to vote for herself. Later on, Lal and I agreed with this sentiment, and stated that if no one had voted for Boromir by a few minutes till, we would change our votes to Kitanna as well, to save our seer. Then Kitanna pointed out the fatal flaw in all of this by revealing herself. I don't know what she was thinking when she offered to vote for herself in Lal's place, but perhaps she wasn't expecting it to get to that point. I guess as time drew closer, she realized that it might, and decided that she needed to reveal to protect both herself and Lal.

[the phantom]

I dreamt of you last night

Well, that's fine and all- I often dream of you too, my lovely little Lalaith, but I don't go telling everyone.

Roa- nice list. Thanks for doing that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the votes fell like this-

(PI=Proven Innocent, WP=Werepenguin)

Ang for Eonwe---------- Eonwe-1
Enca for Lal (PI)-------- Lal (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Jenn for tp (PI)--------- Lal (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Spawn for Kit (PI)------ Lal (PI)-1, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Firefoot for Lal (PI)----- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Eonwe-1
Lal (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-1, tp (PI)-1, Boro (WP)-1, Eonwe-1
Ang for Kit (PI) (RETRACT Eonwe)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-2, tp (PI)-1, Boro (WP)-1
Jenn for Roa (RETRACT tp)--- Lal (PI)-2, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-1, Roa-1
Boro (WP) for Lal (PI)--- Lal (PI)-3, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-1, Roa-1
Roa for Boro (WP)------- Lal (PI)-3, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1
Di for Lal (PI)------------ Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1
Kit (PI) for Ang---------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1, Ang-1
Mac for Kit (PI)---------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-2, Roa-1, Ang-1
Val for Ang--------------- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-2, Ang-2, Roa-1
Val for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Ang)--- Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-3, Ang-1, Roa-1
Naria for Lal (PI)-------- Lal (PI)-5, Kit (PI)-3, Boro (WP)-3, Ang-1, Roa-1
Mac for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Kit)--- Lal (PI)-5, Boro (WP)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
Naria for Boro (WP) (RETRACT Lal)--- Boro (WP)-5, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
tp (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Boro (WP)-6, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1
Kit (PI) for Boro (WP)--- Boro (WP)-7, Lal (PI)-4, Kit (PI)-2, Ang-1, Roa-1

I'll make some detailed comments on the voting later. For right now, I'll just say that from the voting alone, Valier looks suspicious. Anguirel, Diamond, and Mac also make votes that would be the logical vote for a WP to make at the time it was cast. Firefoot's too, though a bit less so.

[Roa_Aoife]

I have a question for those who have played with Boromir (I've only known him as sub-mod):

Two of the people Boromir suspected are known innocents. This casts a bit of spotlight on myself and Ang. I know I'm innocent, but no one else does (except the wolves) but is Boromir the type of wolf to cast suspicion on a comrade or the kind to direct attention away from his comrades? I wouldn't be surprised if it was the former, since that's what I would do, but if it is the latter, then I'd like to be able to put Ang on my "slightly less suspicious list" since it's kind of short at the moment.

[Diamond18]

I've only played with Boro when he was the Seer. Which is making it a bit difficult for me to glean anything useful from his posts. I may dig through the Grimoire to find games in which he was a Wolf. But since tp played with him as a wolf, and is a known innocent whom we can trust, that seems like an awful lot of work, so I think I'll hold off for the moment and see what tp says.

[the phantom]

I'm a little busy right now, but I'll try and dig some stuff up later. I have a historical book at my disposal containing snippets of private messages sent by Wolf-Boro to Wolf-Phantom and Wolf-Lalaith in WW X.

[Roa_Aoife]

Alright, then, in themeantime, we should move ahead with our analysis. A couple people are pinging on my radar screen- Ang and Jenny- and I'm going to look further into them. (Hence why I want to know about Boro-pengiun's gaming habits.)

Originally Posted by phantom

I have a historical book at my disposal containing snippets of private messages sent by Wolf-Boro to Wolf-Phantom and Wolf-Lalaith in WW X.

I don't want to be picky concerning this, but I don't think we're allowed to use pm's as evidence, just as we can't reference other threads outside of previous games, though we'd need a mod call on this one.

[JennyHallu]

Hey I'm around...but I'm likely to be very quiet toDay. And I'm tipsy. Don't mix Scottish ancestry and whiskey...makes me a snappish drunk. But it was tasty.

Anywho...my readings over Boro's posting made Mac ping, once again, on my radar screen. No offense to your test, TP, but Boro certainly didn't expect to get killed yesterday, and it just seemed that he emphasized and re-emphasized Mac's newbieness and innocence. Made me nervous.

[the phantom]

Anywho...my readings over Boro's posting made Mac ping, once again, on my radar screen. No offense to your test, TP, but Boro certainly didn't expect to get killed yesterday, and it just seemed that he emphasized and re-emphasized Mac's newbieness and innocence. Made me nervous.

I'll take a look at those posts later. There may be something to that. Of course, Boro emphasizing Mac's innocence could have been done just so we'd lynch an innocent Mac. You know how nasty those penguins are.

And I don't want you to think that I'm not considering Mac whatsoever, though. If he was completely off my list, I wouldn't have included his name in my list of possible Penguinish votes.

And about the history book I have containing interviews with Boro88's great great grandfather and known werewolf, Boro85, I think I'm allowed to use it, Roa.

The rule about not using pms to verify what someone is saying- it seems fairly obvious to me that the rule is meant to guard against someone giving a direct quote from the pm sent to them by Nogrod or Lommy that assigned them their role. I doubt they had in mind a villager recalling a past conversation with another villager that was not in any way written with this current village in mind.

[Diamond18]

I'm in the midst of reading over TiG X right now.... Tell me, did any of you post PM's at the end? If so, they've become public knowledge just like any game posts from that game, so I would think could be used just the same.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm in the midst of reading over TiG X right now.... Tell me, did any of you post PM's at the end? If so, they've become public knowledge just like any game posts from that game, so I would think could be used just the same.

Caran did, at the end, but Boromir wasn't in that game that I recall. The Wolves were Jenny, Caran, and myself, the seer was Naria, and the ranger was Zali.

I'm not finished with my summaries and analysis, but I need sleep now, so I'll try to finish them tommorrow (RL).

The rule about not using pms to verify what someone is saying- it seems fairly obvious to me that the rule is meant to guard against someone giving a direct quote from the pm sent to them by Nogrod or Lommy that assigned them their role. I doubt they had in mind a villager recalling a past conversation with another villager that was not in any way written with this current village in mind.

As I said, I'd like a mod ruling on it- I'm all for catching wolves, but I'm more for playing by the rules. Honestly, you could just tell us what he's prone to do- there's no reall reason to use them.

[Encaitare]

I feel that Boromir is a savvy enough player to have placed a fellow wolf in his suspicious list, which leaves us only with Roa and Anguirel. Nothing's definite, of course, but it is still a possibility.

Roa

Was the second person out of 7 to vote for Boro. Lalaith was first, and Roa cast her vote long before Boro's penguin-ness was revealed. Roa said that she was suspicious of Boromir since his second post, which read:

Originally Posted by Boromir88, post #14

Some quick comments on people so far before I must be off...

Valier and Eonwe are acting too strange to be evil penguins. I don't think wps would act in this manner in the very early goings of the game.

Firefoot brought up useful comment on the cobbler, one which I completely forgot about, seeing as I have no remembrance of a cobbler for a very very long time now. So Firefoot I'm ok with for now, a very logical sensible person to have around.

I can't find much significance in Roa's, phantom's, or Diamond's, posts yet, so there's nothing for me to go off of.

I shall now depart.

In post #72, Roa explains why she found Boro so supicious. In the post quotd above, Boro said that her posts were not very significant, but later cited one of those posts as grounds for suspecting her. He was also contradictory in other small ways. At the time I felt like Roa was being nitpicky with the way she compared every little thing he said, but now I'm glad she did. With the way Roa and Boro were going back and forth so heatedly yesterDay, I think it's safe to say that Roa is innocent.

Anguirel

He writes in a Day 1 post:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Anyway, at this stage I'd rather have no hints at all. We shouldn't be too absorbed in our assets-the Gifted Ones will make themselves known at the right time-instead we should have an eye to our insidious enemies.

Incidentally, phantom old chap, are you still into killing Ordinary Elves on Day One to prevent the accidental lynching of a Gifted? I'm not.

Perhaps Ang and the phantom are just two very different players with two very different styles. Yet I feel like the suggestion that there be no attempt to divert attention away from the gifteds is a bit suspicious.

Originally Posted by Anguirel, post #55

So with little time to lose I am going to have to vote for Eonwe with the shoddy justification of his quietness.

It's true that Eonwe was very quiet, only posting a couple of times without any analysis, and didn't even cast a vote. But this makes me wonder why Ang chose to vote for Eonwe when he wasn't the only quiet player. I hadn't even posted at all by the time Ang voted. I suppose it was the lack of substance in the posts rather than the absence which made Ang make the choice he did.

Conclusion about Ang: inconclusive. He doesn't seem terribly suspicious to me at present, but I am not placing him on my probably-innocent-list.

[Diamond18]

Okey dokey, I've read through TiG X and gleaned just a couple things from it. In the early stages of the game Boro mostly ignored his fellow wolves or voiced only slight suspicion of them -- they were never amongst his top suspects. He barely interacted with Lalaith but did exchange some posts with tp. He latched onto the innocent Kuru and for most of the game treated him as innocent, only voicing any real suspicions late in the game, and only backed off when Kuru revealed himself as the Hunter. Other players he seemed to vary on as one would expect a convincing sort of innocent to do... I didn't find much that seemed to matter on that score. Some interesting early posts of Boro's were: #107 #200 & #256.

Note that in #200 he names phantom among the least suspicious and Lalaith only in the somehwat suspicious.

So, to compare that to this game...

Borrowing Roa's handy list:

Originally Posted by Roa's handy list

People Boromir though innocent

Valier
Mac
Jenny
Spawn
Eonwe

People Boromir wasn't sure about

phantom
Firefoot
Naria
Encaitare
Diamond

If Boro is following his usual wolvish behavior, then it's QUITE likely that there is one Werepenguin per group. From the second group I can rule out tp and myself, which leads me to want to look closely at Naria, Firefoot, and Enca. Unforunately, we have no knowns from the first group (unless you are an innocent in that group, then you can rule out yourself, happily). But I am fairly certain that the two wolves do not share a grouping.

If Boro was following his usual wolvish behavior, this group is looking pretty good at the moment:

Originally Posted by Roa's handy list

People Boromir Suspected

Lal
Roa
Kitanna
Ang

Well, obviously Lal and Kit are innocent. I'm inclined to look favorably on Ang and Roa for the time being, since Boro has shown a proclivity for being less supicious of his fellows in the early stages.

Of course, as I'm sure some are eager to point out, there is one inherent flaw in looking too closely at the parallels between TIG X and our current game. Boro may not have been behaving exactly the same. Boro has only been a werecreature once before, so we do not know whether he is the sort of mix it up or stay the same when evil. I'm inclined to think he's more likely to stay the same, but that's just me. Also, he most definitely had different compatriots for this game since Lal and tp are both innocents. Unless, that is, Lal is lying a blue streak and all three were once more teammates, oh horror of horrors, but as we have had no true seer step forward to declaim her, I'm not going to weird myself out with that prospect too much.