Feedback and Suggestion Box

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The final LotR thread is up and we have managed to finish this project before 2005 ends! I hope there will be some posting on the Appendix F thread.

Congratulations to us all on an interesting project; special thanks to Fordim for initiating it, and an additional special thanks to davem and Lalwendë, who are, as far as I am aware, the only forum members besides myself to post on each and every thread!!

It took me a little longer to prepare the Appendices threads than I originally thought; thorough reading revealed more substance than I recalled from previous skimming.

I look forward to discussing The Hobbit with many of you in the coming year; I plan to begin with the first chapter in mid-January.

[davem]

Well, its over. (As Sam might have said).

I don't think I'll be joining in The Hobbit disscussion. Without opening up old wounds , I have to repeat what I said about TH not being a part of the Legendarium - which is not to say it doesn't have a special place in my heart (in memory at least). I haven't read it for a while - last time was when I read The Annotated Hobbit two or three years back.

Its either a wonderful children's book when taken for itself, & I'm not sure its possible to analyse it in the way we have LotR. With LotR you can peel away layer after layer & find new depths of meaning & relevance. With TH I fear it would be more like 'breaking a thing to find out what it is made of...

Or, its an 'essay in the craft' which like the productions of the Elven Smiths of Eregion leading to the creation of the Three, led to the creation of LotR. The existence of LotR does away with the necessity of TH as a part of the Legendarium, because all the themes & issues it deals with are dealt with more profoundly & effectively in LotR. The Hobbits of LotR & their world exist because of TH. The Three exist because of those 'essays in the craft - but what happened to them is not known, because they aren't relevant to the big picture.

In short, if its a (great) children's book - which I think it is - we risk ending up pulling it to pieces & ending up like the people in the Beowulf essay allegory with a pile of old stones & no means to look out upon the Sea, & if we treat it as a part of the Legendarium we won't have much to say about its meaning & themes which we haven't said in our CbC discussion of LotR.

Or I could be completely wrong....

I look forward to reading the discussion.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Congratulations to us all on an interesting project; special thanks to Fordim for initiating it, and an additional special thanks to davem and Lalwendë, who are, as far as I am aware, the only forum members besides myself to post on each and every thread!!

I have not posted on all of the threads, alas. I missed some of the earliest ones as that must have been at the time the monitor on my old PC was broken, and some others I think I missed as I was away and discussion had shot off into the distance by the time I returned - notably the thread on the Lothlorien chapter!

But there is always time to add some new points to old threads - there may even be more time to go back and revisit them now.

[Bêthberry]

While I'm sure we are all proud that the discussion did prevail and continue to the conclusion of the book, I think special commendations are called for. Estelyn's work in setting up week by week by week (even planning around her holidays and absences) the discussions and guiding the threads has been outstanding. Without her diligence and enthusiasm for the project, I doubt it would have continued.

Well done, good and faithful servant! (Well, we are the dead, right?)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for the roses! (I hope you came to praise me, not to bury me! ) And thanks to all those who enjoyed the introductions so much that they bestowed reputation points upon my posts. I appreciate the feedback, and it's nice to know that the discussions are read, even when the posting has sometimes been meager.

This weekend we will begin the chapter-by-chapter discussions of The Hobbit. I may be opening the new thread earlier than Monday; Sunday was often my best day for posting on the LotR discussions, and depending upon my real life schedule, some threads will be up earlier than that. I hope many of you will join in; these chapters are usually shorter and faster reading than LotR, so it should be easier to keep up. I look forward to an enjoyable time!

[Alchisiel]

This may be off topic but I was wondering if there are any plans to read the Sil after The Hobbit is completed. I have many questions about the Sil and would enjoy discussing it chapter by chapter.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think there are enough members interested to make the Sil a worthwhile CbC discussion. Whether or not I will be the one opening the introductory threads I don't yet know. The Hobbit discussions should take us to late spring or early summer; after that we shall see how much interest there still is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm sorry for those few who are anxiously awaiting the begin of the next chapter discussion of The Hobbit, but a painful finger injury (small but severe burn) is keeping me from typing more than the briefest of lines today. I hope it will be better tomorrow so that I can post then.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have found an online source which shows Tolkien's own drawings for The Hobbit, for those of you who do not have them for reference:

Tolkien Hobbit pictures

Enjoy!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The CbC Hobbit discussions, which are moving very slowly right now anyway, will have a break for the Easter weekend. The next chapter thread will be posted sometime next week. For those who have time, there's still lots to discuss on the existing threads!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Chapter 14 thread is open for discussion, just in case it has escaped your notice! This is a pivotal chapter and introduces an important new character, so please do join in. I look forward to your posts.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This week's discussion concludes The Hobbit. Thanks to those of you who participated! The threads remain open for all who want to join in later.

Is there still enough interest in these discussions for the Silmarillion? If so, Aiwendil is willing to contribute his expertise and write the introductory posts. I look forward to reading them and to posting occasionally.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

This week's discussion concludes The Hobbit. Thanks to those of you who participated! The threads remain open for all who want to join in later.

Is there still enough interest in these discussions for the Silmarillion? If so, Aiwendil is willing to contribute his expertise and write the introductory posts. I look forward to reading them and to posting occasionally.

Well, as someone who said that he'd definitely participate in a Hobbit discussion... I'm probably not the best person to be saying he'd participate in a Silmarillion discussion... but I will anyway.

Maybe the greater (slightly) obscurity of the work will work in its favour.

I was unable to access my account here for several months, and couldn't post for The Hobbit readings. I'm planning on being here for the Silmarillion readings.

Thanks to Estelyn and all you other folk who keep these discussions going. It is a labor of love, but a labor, nonetheless!

Cloudberry

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Count me in for any venture into the Silmarillion.

[symestreem]

I would also be interested in doing the Sil, though I suspect my head would regret it...

[Alchisiel]

I would be thoroughly interested in a chapter by chapter read of the Silm. It is becoming one of my favourite books by Tolkien. Who will lead us through it?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aiwendil is the "designated driver mod" for the Sil discussions. I don't know just when he intends to begin them.

[Aiwendil]

I'm sorry that I haven't been that communicative about this. Summer has proven quite busy. I've been thinking that perhaps it would be best to start in early September (if there's still enough interest); I imagine this might be better for some people as there won't be conflicts with vacations and such.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

If I don't show up in September, please know that I will in October. September is looking like a very busy month.

[Alchisiel]

Sounds good to me. I am in the process of reading LotR at the moment and I should be done by then. See you in September!!

[Aiwendil]

Provided there is still interest, I'm about ready to start the Silmarillion chapter by chapter discussion. I aim to have the Ainulindale intro up and the discussion started this weekend (i.e. September 9 - 10).

The Silmarillion discussion presents some interesting challenges not encountered in the previous discussions. As I see it there are two issues:

1. Each chapter of the Silmarillion covers significantly more plot than a chapter of LotR or The Hobbit.

2. The Silmarillion's unique history makes it less practicable to consider only the text as finally published.

I'm open to suggestions on how to deal with these issues. My thoughts for the moment are:

1A. We may want to allow a longer time (i.e. longer than one week) for each discussion before beginning the following chapter.

1B. Another possibility is to further sub-divide the chapters (particularly the later ones).

2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

[Alchisiel]

I think if UT and HoME were included I think it would be more daunting of a task not only to the readers but to you also. But I can also see your point of including those books. I also think that it would be quite intimidating to readers not as knowledgeable as some of the more experienced readers here. I think the easiest solution that you gave would be to allow a longer time between chapters.

I am still very, very interested in the cbc of The Silm.

[Thinlómien]

I second longer time; two weeks (or even three) could be okay.

I wouldn't include the Ut or the HoME in the official CbC - nothing prevents individual members still referring to them.

[Lalwendë]

Aiwendil - I'm looking forwards to this, especially as you're knowledgeable on the Sil! I've been wanting to examine it in more depth for a while and improve my own understanding.

Now I would also second the call for a longer period than a week to consider chapters, and would also welcome chapter breakdowns - say half a chapter a fortnight in some cases, as it is such a dense text with so many refereences to consider - and work is also very intense for me too right now!

Not scared of using HoME as there's some fascianting stuff about how the ethos of the Sil changed with the years and its interesting to get to the original sources and find what remained!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

While I don't have a complete set of HoME, I also would opt for references at least to the texts in UT and HoME, so that that we know where to find additional material and earlier versions etc. I also agree that a slower pace would be a good thing here, as the Silm sometimes strikes me as an outline for a very large series!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

While I don't have a complete set of HoME, I also would opt for references at least to the texts in UT and HoME, so that that we know where to find additional material and earlier versions etc. I also agree that a slower pace would be a good thing here, as the Silm sometimes strikes me as an outline for a very large series!

The Silmnopsis?

Oh never mind....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Provided there is still interest, I'm about ready to start the Silmarillion chapter by chapter discussion. I aim to have the Ainulindale intro up and the discussion started this weekend (i.e. September 9 - 10).

2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

Good to hear you will be doing this, Aiwendil.

I'm looking forward to following this discussion, if not joining in. I think a longer period of time might be suitable, but a period longer than two weeks for each section under discussion might be at risk of losing people, as once they've posted their main ideas, they might lose the habit of keeping up, so to speak. Brisk moving threads seem to keep people interested--as long as they aren't too fast! Sub-division a good idea.

I don't think including reference from UT and HoMe would be intimidating. Boring maybe, but not intimidating.

[Mister Underhill]

I think Bb's right -- more frequent threads and smaller chunks might be the way to go, though I haven't looked at the text to see if there's an easy way of accomplishing that. The challenge here will be to get everyone on the same page, literally.

Also, from a "marketing" standpoint, here's another two cents: I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details).

I like the idea of HoME and UT references in the intro posts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Also, from a "marketing" standpoint, here's another two cents: I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details).

Since I will be out of town this weekend, I would personally like this particular chapter discussion, which happens to be my all time favorite too, to start another time.

[Lalwendë]

And Oxonmoot is on 15th - 17th, too, so please don't start then.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

If suggestions from a mostly-lurker may be entertained:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

1A. We may want to allow a longer time (i.e. longer than one week) for each discussion before beginning the following chapter.

I think that a longer time is an excellent idea, but why tie down to a fixed period for each discussion. As the eariler chapter discussions show, some chapters elicit much discussion, give and take, and point and rebuttal. Others generate 2 or 3 posts and then nothing for five days (although it would surprise me if Silm has that affect).

How about this: each chapter is open-ended, with the moderator announcing two or three days in advance that, since discussion seems to be drawing to a close, the new chapter will be posted on...

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

1B. Another possibility is to further sub-divide the chapters (particularly the later ones).

If you can find logical starting and stopping places, then by all means.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

2. I wish to encourage, in addition to direct discussion of the chapter as found in the published Silmarillion, discussion of the history of each tale (i.e. of related material in UT and HoMe). But I certainly don't want to frighten off readers unfamiliar with the additional material. I plan to include a list of references in UT and HoMe for each chapter, and also to give a short introductory note on the textual evolution of each chapter. Does this sound like a good idea or might it be too intimidating?

I think that this sort of material in the introduction and inserted by the more knowledgeable and well-read members would be most welcomed, even by the casual reader (will there be any casual readers of these threads?) So far, the source material that has been referenced has been included in a way that is straighforward, non-confusing, and adds to the experience. Kudos to those, especially in the LotR discussions for that!

I have only read UT, so don't know what Silm material is included in the other volumes of HoME, but I know that the stuff from UT was either totally fascinating (the complete Fall of Gondolin, or the creation of the sun and moon), or failed completely to hold my interest (the evolution of the story of Earendil, for instance). I know that everyone's experience is different, and therefore encourage the inclusion of source material and "historical" refrences as part of the discussion.

Thanks for listening.

[Aiwendil]

Mister Underhill wrote:

I think shooting for the weekend after the coming weekend at the earliest would be best. It would give time to post an Announcement and build some awareness before the project rolls. Also, a lot of people start school up again this week; might be better to let them settle in first (not to mention that it will give us time to iron out the technical details).

Quite sensible. Let's make it the weekend of the 16th - 17th then.

I'm inclined to try a two week discussion period. Longer than this would certainly not be advisable. But I see no reason that the length must be set in stone at the outset. If two weeks proves too long, it can be reduced.

[Mister Underhill]

Sounds good. I'll throw an announcement up today. Aiwendil, I think I've set you up to be able to start threads in CbC -- check on that if you would. We'll also have to set the naming conventions for the threads.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

What about starting on the 15th, and catching the anniversary of the Silmarillion's publishing date?

[Aiwendil]

The first Silmarillion discussion will be opened shortly. I hope this is not a problem for those attending Oxonmoot; in any case, the next discussion is not set to start until two weeks from today, which should give everyone who's interested time to participate in the Ainulindale.

I will be including some comments on the textual history of each chapter, as well as some references to Unfinished Tales (UT) and The History of Middle-earth (HoMe) for those who are interested in reading more. Please note: these additional readings are not required for participation! I hope that the discussions will appeal to first time readers of the Silmarillion just as much as to venerable HoMe scholars.

[Aiwendil]

I thought that with the Silmarillion discussion now well underway, it might be good to check in with people for any feedback or suggestions. What do you think of the two week time period? It seemed about right to me for the Ainulindale and Valaquenta discussions, but QS chapters 1 and 2 have so far been much quieter (though ch. 2 is, after all, pretty slight). What do others think?

Is there anything else in the way of feedback or suggestions? Anything I could be doing to improve the discussions? (Not that I'm not happy with them so far).

[Aiwendil]

Due to the general business of the end of the semester, the opening of the next discussion will be delayed until late next week. Judging by the activity level of the last few discussions, this will not be of much import to anyone, but I just thought I should let you know.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Aiwendil, just wanted to let you know that though I have not been able to post on the threads, I am still following along albeit at a delayed rate, and hope to catch up before the end. My apologies for the silence.

[Břicho]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Aiwendil, just wanted to let you know that though I have not been able to post on the threads, I am still following along albeit at a delayed rate, and hope to catch up before the end. My apologies for the silence.

Hmm, has there been a change for the Silmarillian discussion?