I Found the Entwives!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

nothing. with you.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

We know the ents procreated and had entings, and Fangorn identified younger ents at the entmoot. I'm trying to recall any further info regarding ents in HoMe, without doing further research on a lazy holiday weekend.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event.

Yes, the mandatory picnic was part of the third prophecy of Mandos.

Anyway, rather like the alternative version of orkish origins being that orc bodies were inhabited by Maiar, but then somehow devolved into mortality, there is often an ambiguity or possible alternative. The entwives, however, are more an enigmatic mystery rather than ambiguity. And one I don't think Tolkien ever wanted solved. Mysteries along that line obviously amused him.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

thats interesting. I wonder if after they were 'awoken' if their physical bodies died they would then slumber or dream, and their dream would inhabit the land. Dont native Australians call their spirit world Dreamtime? or something similar.
I often wonder about Goldberry being some kind of water spirit too. Sometimes even inanimate objects like Elven rope seem to have a kind of intelligence of their own, maybe not spirit but a kind of sympathetic Elven magic maybe.

[Galin]

Technically Treebeard says that Elves began waking up trees and teaching them to talk, but it is a bit confusing, as earlier Treebeard seems to explain that some of 'us' are still true Ents, lively enough, but many are growing sleepy or tree-ish...

'Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. This is going on all the time.'

'(...) Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk.'

Does this simply mean that some 'true' Ents can get tree-ish, while other awoken trees [who began as trees] can get Entish, emphasis on the -ish part... but if so, yet if some are actually 'limb-lithe' and can talk to Treebeard, are they 'becoming' Ents?

And with respect to The Silmarillion text and the 1963 letter, are the Elves awaking the [or some] spirits summoned by Yavanna -- that is, sleeping souls inside trees, as Galadriel thinks is possible, in part [see below]. Although one would think they were all ready awake or waking, as long as the Elves appeared first.

Hmm.

The text that seems to have been the source for Of Aule And Yavanna appears to date 'at the earliest to 1958-59, but may well be later than that (...) This was followed by a text made on my father's later typewriter (see X. 300) that expanded the first draft, but from which scarcely anything of any significance in that draft was excluded. It bears no title, in the published Silmarillion it was used to form the second part of Chapter 2 Of Aule and Yavanna (...) This was of course a purely editorial combination.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, War of the Jewels

And then we have a draft letter dated 1963:

'No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took on the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees.'

Christopher Tolkien writes that it seems likely enough that this part of the letter, and the text about the spirits summoned by Yavanna belong 'to much the same time'. Arguably so, but the draft letter could actually be later too, as on X. 300 Christopher explains that the earliest letter made on his father's later typewriter dates to 1959.

It's interesting (maybe) that in the text used for The Silmarillion, one gets the feeling that the Ents were surely referenced in the Music [referenced as these spirits anyway], if one gave enough heed to all the voices. The description even seems to say that Eru himself did not miss this, of course...

... but yet in the letter the High Elves in general say otherwise, even if some, including the great Galadriel, appear to have a similar opinion as was chosen for the construced Silmarillion.

Or something else

I any case this chapter is an edited part of the early Silmarillion, again raising the question of how Tolkien himself intended to introduce the Ents in an 'origin context' is his ultimate Silmarillion -- which was arguably to be characterized as largely Mannish [according to various late characterizations by JRRT himself], if based on a measure of Elvish thought or texts, and contact with Elves.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Farael

A couple of days ago a friend told me that he thought the entwives were mentioned at the very beginning, when Sam is talking to Ted Sandyman and mentions that his cousin had seen a man, as huge as an elm, walking outside the Shire. If that was true, it could have been easily an ent-wife as I don't think hobbits would be able to tell the difference between ent and entwife.

Regarding the entwifes being mentioned on The Two Towers, I must have missed it.

Was just thinking that. Also the ents' lack of knowledge regarding hobbits makes them more likely.

Add in the Shire is some of the remaining unspoiled "gardens"

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Was just thinking that. Also the ents' lack of knowledge regarding hobbits makes them more likely.

Add in the Shire is some of the remaining unspoiled "gardens"

But that can't be what the person ("Teleporno") quoted in the original post was talking about- if indeed he wasn't merely a troll, which is the vibe I'm getting.

Speaking of which, I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Speaking of which, I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

Sadly, I don't recall that he ever did.

Perhaps he just intended it to be a piece of gossip to lend a certain ominous tone to that part of the story.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm inclined to think the creature described by Sam was also merely a troll- but did Tolkien ever clarify that? Anyone know?

In Letters, Tolkien says nothing about the strange creature seen in the Shire. However:

There are or were no Ents in the older stories-because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three.

Letter 247

In HOME I Christopher Tolkien notes that the conversation in the Green Dragon about the Tree-men was present in the original draft, and posits that it could indeed have been a "premonition" of the Ents.

Back in Letters, Tolkien says:

Though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it is now.

Letter 180

With that, I think I lean to the idea that Tolkien had put the line in the hobbits' talk at the inn to presage the undeveloped adventure with the 'Tree-Men', and then just forgot about it (after all, it did take him a long time and a lot of rewriting to finish the book).

[Nerwen]

Thanks, Zil. So it's another "Balrogs' wings" situation, with no definite answer.

That said, I don't think it fits for the creature to be an Entwife (as opposed to an Ent). I mean, what's she supposed to have been doing for the entirety of the Third Age?

[Galin]

My guess is that Tolkien was thinking of giants when he began this description, and that through revision, Sam uses "tree men" because whatever was seen was as big as a tower or a tree.

I take Sam's "Elm remark" as part of the comic flow of the conversation: he begins with the Elm as a comparison for size, and an Elm then enters the conversation more generally (as a probability that it was simply an Elm), with Sam adopting this in his response (correct or not he hadn't actually seen the being in question in any event). Even if that's off target, it's interesting what is said later in the narrative, surviving into the published tale:

"He [Sam] had imagined himself meeting giants taller than trees, and other creatures even more terrifying, some time or other in the course of his journey, but at the moment he was finding his first sight of Men and their tall houses quite enough, indeed too much for the dark end of a tiring day." Three Is Company

I note that in the early writing giants were mentioned in narration right before the conversation in the Green Dragon is described. But for the sleep inducing textual history (as far as I could wrangle it out, and only hopefully correctly) see below the line of dread. As noted, Christopher Tolkien comments:

"(Was this passage (preserved in FR, p. 53) the first premonition of the Ents? But long before my father had referred to 'Tree-men' in connection with the voyages of Earendel: II. 254, 261)."

As far as the final version of the passage is concerned, the being described is too tall for an Ent or Entwife in my opinion, and its stride too long, unless one prefers to see the description to have "grown" in the telling, and that Hobbitish fancy has embiggened this being to great heights.

What might be safe to say is that at the time of writing the drafts of the conversation, Tolkien had yet to invent "Ents" as we know them, so that I doubt the history of the Ents and Entwives splitting apart was in his mind.

That said, beyond the line of dread lurks a very tall "Tree Giant" who seems to have followed close enough in the draft progression; again not Treebeard or Ents as according to the conception arrived at later (as Tolkien recalls), but giant Tree Beings.

_________________________________ line of dread


There appears to be at least a couple of years between the writing of the Green Dragon discussion and the writing of the chapter Treebeard, and I think we should take Tolkien at his word, that he invented Ents when he came to the particular chapter Treebeard -- that is, in the sense that it was only here that Ents came to be fully realized -- as compared to the idea of there being any tree-like giants in the story. These came earlier.

So whatever Tolkien meant with his early addition of Tree-men: in probably late Sept 1938, or early October 1938, he writes the chapter Ancient History (partially based on some earlier material), within what is called the 'Second Phase', this will include the descriptions:

"Trolls of a new and most malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry."

"(…) But what about these what do you call 'em -- giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' [changed at the time of writing to] 'But what about these Tree-Men, these here -- giants? They do say one nigh as big as a tower was seen up away…"

From probably mid October 1938 -- December 1938 the 'Third Phase' is completed, meaning Tolkien returns to the beginning of the story making a new fair copy manuscript of the whole work as far as the conversation between Frodo and Gloin at Rivendell. This phase includes the mention of Gandalf being imprisoned by 'Giant Treebeard.' Thus a reference to Giant Treebeard (however conceived, with his admittedly suggestive name), exists quite close on the heels of the first version of the conversation in the Green Dragon. In this Third Phase the passage concerning giants becomes:

"Trolls and giants were abroad, of a new and more malevolent kind, no longer dull witted but full of cunning and wizardry."

So giants of some sort are still around in the same phase as the mention of Giant Treebeard. No notable revision (with respect to our purposes here) is made to the passage concerning the conversation in the Green Dragon, noting that this version would appear to still contain as big as a tower but without or leastways a tree. Pausing to consider the final, published passages:

"Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."

"… Tree-men, these giants as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away…"

I don't know when these final revision were made, but Tolkien will take out the reference to giants in the passage where trolls are noted, and revise the comparison to a tower to a comparison to a tree -- so now not 'as big' as a tower, or as big as a tree -- but bigger than a tree.

It would be interesting to know when this revision was made, especially if it came after Treebeard became much smaller. Nothing of note here seems to have been altered in the 'Fourth Phase' of this chapter, and Hammond and Scull generally explain (unless I missed something earlier) that in 1946-47 Tolkien would make further alterations to books I and II (as well as later), which would be after the chapter on Treebeard in any event.

Back to the 1930s: from Dec 1938 we jump a bit to February 1939, where Tolkien states in a letter: "though there is no dragon (so far) there is going to be a Giant."

Jump to Summer: on a letter dated 27-29 July 1939 "Treebeard" emerges: in this short text Frodo thinks Treebeard's leg is a tree-trunk and he has a "rootlike foot and many branching toes." Treebeard is in league with the Enemy here, pretending to be friendly. An outline page dated August 1939 reads: "Adventure with Giant Tree Beard in Forest."

Continuing with the tale, Gandalf (in the house of Elrond) will warn of the Giant Treebeard who haunts the forest between the river and the South Mts. And at about this time Tolkien will write an outline in which its described:

"Fangorn is an evergreen (oak holly?) forest. Trees of vast height. (…) If Treebeard comes in at all -- let him be kindly and rather good? About 50 feet high with barky skin. Hair and beard rather like twigs. Clothed in dark green like a mail of short shining leaves. He has a castle in the black mountains and many thanes and followers. They look like young trees [?when] they stand. (…) The tree-giants assail the besiegers and rescue Trotter &c. and raise siege."

So not relatively long after the conversation in the Dragon was written, Tree-beard is certainly more like a tree than simply being as tall as one, and he has thanes that look like young trees. Later when Tolkien is working on the chapter for Galadriel, Christopher Tolkien notes:

"Here the name Entwash clearly implies that Treebeard is an Ent, and he is specifically so called (for the first time) in the outline just given; but since Treebeard was still only waiting in the wings as a potential ingredient in the narrative this may be only a slight shift in the development of the word. The Troll-lands north of Rivendell were the Entish Lands and Entish Dales (Old English ent 'giant'); and only when Treebeard and the other 'Ents' had been fully realized would the Troll-lands be renamed Ettendales and Ettenmoors (see p. 65 note 32)."

CJRT, commentary, Galadriel

In The Story Forseen from Lorien there is an interesting note: "it could be Merry and Pippin that had adventure in Minas Morgul if Treebeard is cut out" [this was struck out]. We also have an description of Fangorn that now seems to indicate that Fangorn forest itself was not gigantic (along with Treebeard being so giant), as implied earlier with the huge flowers, since the description seems to say that the forest was once part of a larger forested area.

Before we get to the actual chapter Treebeard there is a page of notes about how Ents came to be, including statements like: "Did first lord of the Elves make Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees?", or wondering about what they are, with: "hnau that have gone tree-like, or trees that have become hnau?" and other details. But by the end of 1941 -- beginning of 1942: Tolkien finishes book II and began book III, completing the chapter Treebeard around the end of Jan 1942.


Another interesting thing is that Christopher Tolkien quotes his father's letter about Tolkien having no recollection of inventing Ents, and writing the chapter without any recollection of previous thought and so on. Christopher Tolkien comments: "This testimony is fully borne out by the original text. 'Treebeard' did indeed very largely write itself."

And so at this point we begin to find out about Ents as Tree-shepherds, and Entwives and so on, or Ents as readers will come to know them.

Tree Tall

The "Giant Treebeard" is ensmallened when he becomes "Treebeard the Ent", then Treebeard the Ents embiggens again, but not back up to about fifty feet! In an early draft for the chapter itself, Treebeard was originally ten feet tall, revised to twelve, and then to "at least" fourteen, which while obviously tall, and even more so to Hobbits, is yet not really close to, say, the height of a fifty to one hundred foot oak or pine.

"an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least, probably 4 ft a stride."

Hammond and Scull, Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings

A 4 foot stride is yards away from a 7 yard stride

And in The Road to Isengard, three Ents are described "as tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more..."

A Tall Tale

"(...) it thus became a jesting idiom in the Shire to speak of 'on Friday the first' when referring to a day that did not exist, or to a day on which very unlikely events such as the flying of pigs or (in the Shire) the walking of trees might occur."

The Return of the King, Appendix D, footnote

This is the short version of my response!

[Nerwen]

So... the cryptid in question was not an Ent as such, but may have started out as a tree-sized giant- the concept which eventually morphed into Ents.

Would you accept that as the even shorter version, Galin?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So... the cryptid in question was not an Ent as such, but may have started out as a tree-sized giant- the concept which eventually morphed into Ents.

Would you accept that as the even shorter version, Galin?

Well, I certainly like the word cryptid in any case! Though the ellipsis slowed me down a bit

And one reaction to all of my above is: "well maybe so, but after the Ents were invented maybe Tolkien let the earlier Green Dragon discussion stay as was, to suggest an Ent/wife, 'cause tales about cryptids can grow in the telling."

[vladimir]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed and dealt with somewhere. Rereading the Two Towers, I noticed a brief passage that might be the one Teleporno was referring to.

In the chapter "Journey to the Crossroads", Frodo, Sam and Gollum have traveled for about 3 days since parting from Faramir, and they are nearing the crossroads. It is night, and the sinking moon is ringed with a sickly yellow glare. Gollum wants them to hurry, as where they are is too open to remain by day.

The pertaining paragraph reads as follows:

"He quickened his pace, and they followed him wearily. Soon they began to climb up onto a great hog-back of land. For the most part it was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of recent fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould."

Note the description of the gorse-bushes. They are leggy below; ents have legs yet can be mistaken for trees. In addition, there is agreement with a couple details in Treebeard's description of Entwives in the chapter "Treebeard".

Like most gorse they have yellow flowers. Treebeard says the Entwives' hair was parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn. That color matches.

Treebeard also says Entwives were bent and browned, with cheeks like red apples. Large varieties of gorse are like small trees that are often bent, and their brown bark is sometimes splotched with red.

Larger varieties of gorse grow to around 7-10 feet in height. That seems to fit.

A couple days before reaching the land described above, the area the hobbits passed through was described as partly open, with ilexes, ash, and oaks surrounded with launds of grass dappled with flowers. This agrees with part of Treebeard's description of the Entwives' preferences in environment.

Teleporno also hinted something about the Nazgul being a threat. The east road from the nearby crossroads leads directly to Minas Morgul, the stronghold of the Nine, and the passage does indicate recent fires in the area.

As posted earlier by Galin, there is another possible connection with Minas Morgul: "In The Story Forseen from Lorien there is an interesting note: "it could be Merry and Pippin that had adventure in Minas Morgul if Treebeard is cut out" [this was struck out]. " That might correspond to a later idea of Frodo and Sam having a related adventure as they neared Minas Morgul.

Where it stands, the gorse description is a little odd. Tolkien's descriptions are usually either directly bound to the story line or they frame an integrated context. Any loose ends are often explicitly proclaimed as such. However, at the described point in the hobbits' journey they are entering the fringes of Mordor, and the context being set is one of their leaving more or less normal woods and entering an area of corruption and danger and evil. Why then remark on the glimmering flowers and sweet scent of these old, tall gorse trees? One might be forgiven for taking it is a clue.

The passage above may or may not be what Teleporno was alluding to; I suspect it is. There's no indication of sentience by the trees; there's nothing about entish eyes. Whether the description was consciously meant to indicate Entwives, or it's just gorse, remains up to individual readers. For me it's pleasant to imagine that the Entwives did not entirely disappear.

[Huinesoron]

Vladimir - I think you're onto something! I've made something of a sad little study of this weird thread over the last couple of weeks, and I'm pretty sure you've found something no-one has pointed to before.

First things first: Tolkien was very clear that he never wrote the Entwives into the books. Teleporno was almost certainly wrong. But we can still try and figure out what he was looking at - and I think you've done just that.

So what do we need to be looking for? Ardamir collected it all in the first post: Teleporno believes the Entwives are 'alive and living' in Book 4, that they're a sort of in-joke referencing the Suffragists or women like them, that we need to look at clusters of certain types of words, and that they're in danger from the Nazgul.

There are five passages in The Two Towers which people have pointed to (I said I'd looked into this... I've combed all three threads in case someone came up with something):

The Taming of Smeagol

The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink.

For a long time, this was my favoured option. Treebeard is originally described as looking like a stump, there are references to both fir and birch at the Entmoot, and the Emyn Muil is directly adjacent to the Brown Lands. The idea of Suffragists being on the edge of a cliff, or willing to throw themselves off a cliff out of spite, sounds plausible as a Tolkien opinion. There's also the notion that Sam's rope (which was tied around one of the stumps) was untied by a kindly Entwife.

Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

All about them were small woods of resinous trees, fir and cedar and cypress. and other kinds unknown in the Shire, with wide glades among them; and everywhere there was a wealth of sweet-smelling herbs and shrubs. The long journey from Rivendell had brought them far south of their own land, but not until now in this more sheltered region had the hobbits felt the change of clime. Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green-fingered, small flowers were opening in the turf, birds were singing. Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.

The plants of Ithilien are strongly anthropomorphised - the word 'dryad' is a key one, as are the green 'fingers' of the larches. Nearby paragraphs also specifically reference the Northfarthing of the Shire (which is where Sam's tale of a walking tree comes from, plus Treebeard thought the Entwives would like the Shire). It's inarguable that the Entwives would feel right at home here. But... there is also a specific mention of 'falling into untended age', and (of course) no suffragist jokes.

Journey to the Cross-roads 1

"[The staves given by Faramir to Frodo and Sam] are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning."

This is a quite horrifying idea I came across... 'lebethron' means something like 'polished fingers' or 'finger-tree', which is highlighted as a perfect name for an Ent, and the link to finding and returning is a good one. But I can't quite believe that Teleporno believes the Entwives were being chopped up for use in walking sticks...!

Journey to the Cross-roads 2

For the most part it was covered with a thick growth of gorse and whortleberry, and low tough thorns, though here and there clearings opened, the scars of recent fires. The gorse-bushes became more frequent as they got nearer the top; very old and tall they were, gaunt and leggy below but thick above, and already putting out yellow flowers that glimmered in the gloom and gave a faint sweet scent. So tall were the spiny thickets that the hobbits could walk upright under them, passing through long dry aisles carpeted with a deep prickly mould.

On the further edge of this broad hill-back they stayed their march and crawled for hiding underneath a tangled knot of thorns. Their twisted boughs, stooping to the ground, were overridden by a clambering maze of old briars. Deep inside there was a hollow hall, raftered with dead branch and bramble, and roofed with the first leaves and shoots of spring. There they lay for a while, too tired yet to eat; and peering out through the holes in the covert they watched for the slow growth of day.

But no day came, only a dead brown twilight.

As discussed by Vladimir immediately above. I would add that the 'hollow hall', 'stooping', and specific use of 'dead brown' as a descriptor in the following paragraphs are words that could easily evoke the Ents/Entwives - and also that the idea that suffragists could easily be 'prickly' when confronted with 'foolish, boorish men' (per Teleporno's description). The presence of a suffragist joke which isn't a massive stretch is what's convinced me that this is the best candidate.

Journey to the Cross-roads 3

Presently, not far ahead, looming up like a black wall, they saw a belt of trees. As they drew nearer they became aware that these were of vast size, very ancient it seemed, and still towering high, though their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them, but had failed to kill them or to shake their fathomless roots.

[...]

At length they reached the trees, and found that they stood in a great roofless ring, open in the middle to the sombre sky; and the spaces between their immense boles were like the great dark arches of some ruined hall.

Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king's head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. `Look, Sam!' he cried, startled into speech. `Look! The king has got a crown again!'

This is one of my favourite passages of The Two Towers, and the conspicuous formation of living trees - specifically noted to be ancient - at a location associated both with attacks from the Nazgul and a gardening-type miracle caught my eye. I really wanted this to be Teleporno's reference - perhaps suffragists liked to hang out in circles? - but I don't think it can be. These are gigantic trees with massive roots, which... isn't how the Entish folk are described. Alas.

~

Finally, since we're doing Entwife theories: my personal pet theory is that Treebeard (and Tolkien) got their fate precisely backwards. The Brown Lands and their inhabitants were burned during the War of the Last Alliance - but not by Sauron. Whose country did they live right next to? Who did the men they taught agriculture to serve, obey, and worship? Who would absolutely sympathise with the Entwives' efforts to bend their entire country to their will, setting it all into neat rows with nothing out of place? Who, in point of fact, would be utterly wasting his time trying to stop the Last Alliance by burning the Brown Lands, seeing as most of his enemies would probably come up from the south (by way of Gondor and the Gap of Rohan)?

Exactly. The Brown Lands were the Breadbasket of Sauron, and were burned by the Men and Elves to stop them from supplying his armies any longer. When the Ents came looking, they would have looked around shiftily and said, "Er, yeah, I've seen them, they went... south. I mean west! Definitely west. Go back that way."

(What, you don't think? ^_^)

hS

[vladimir]

Huinisoron, I'm not quite down with your Brown Lands / breadbasket theory. Admittedly, Tolkien omitted any explanation of how Sauron would provision his forces, and that's a bit of a hole in things, given that plants don't grow in Mordor. No doubt orcs can get by on smegma and guano, and trolls can just eat dirt (though it makes them cranky at potty time,) but food is needed for the legions of Southrons and Easterlings et al. Maybe Sauron can pull some wizardry like the loaves & fishes thing. But then there's all the industry to forge weapons and arms, and all the other requirements of an immense army. Of course, there are evidently no female orcs, just sayin', so maybe Sauron gets a bit of a break in that regard.

But the idea that Entwives were servants of Sauron is just too untidy in the big picture. It would break Treebeard's heart.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Brown Lands were the Breadbasket of Sauron

Originally Posted by vladimir

plants don't grow in Mordor.

What about Nurn? It was the largest part of Mordor, and was completely given over to farming to feed Sauron's armies.

Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by vladimir

Of course, there are evidently no female orcs, just sayin', so maybe Sauron gets a bit of a break in that regard.

Yes, and if you look at Trajan's Column, you'll see clear evidence that Roman legionaries reproduced asexually, with females only existing amongst their captives...

I don't think there's much grounds for the 'no female orcs' theory, since the only place we ever meet them is in military camps (or, if we're including Goblin Town, in a context where our protagonists hardly had time to go checking for pigtails and petticoats, as it were). We know orcs can breed - Azog had a son, Bolg, and there are sundry half-orcs in the later stages of the books - so assuming that they didn't (because... what?) seems to be in violation of Occamwë's Razor (which states 'Do not unnecessarily multiply entities, or they'll be like this razor - completely useless, what do I need with a razor, do I look like I'm in my third stage of life?!').

Back towards (though not on) topic... I should clarify that the Breadbasket of Sauron theory shouldn't be taken entirely seriously, since it does go directly against the closest we have to an authoritative statement from Tolkien. It is rather depressing - but is it more so than the flirted-with notion that Luthien died early because wearing the Silmaril burned her out? 'The Entwives fall to evil by their love of Order' is at least more nuanced than Saruman's fall, which seems to have been 'because power is fun'. It's on a level with Denethor's, I think, which also ends in fire.

Zigûr, Nurn is indeed the biggest argument against the necessity of the Breadbasket; without it, I would probably be convinced by my own theory (Lorien help me). But it's always possible to theorise inconvenient facts away (maybe Nurn wasn't yet farmed, due to being not as fertile), and it doesn't address the big question of whose side the Men taught by the Entwives were on...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't think there's much grounds for the 'no female orcs' theory

To take it further, there is in fact quite hard evidence of the existence of female Orcs from the pen of Professor Tolkien himself, as seen in the 'Munby Letter', quoted at the Tolkien Gateway here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Mrs._...1_October_1963
Professor Tolkien told his correspondent that

There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

To take it further, there is in fact quite hard evidence of the existence of female Orcs from the pen of Professor Tolkien himself...

! Perhaps we need to take a cue from Teleporno the Entwife-finder and go on a hunt for any obscure passage that might indicate the presence of the Orcwives? Here, I'll start:

Originally Posted by Book 6 Chapter 2: The Land of Shadow

To their surprise they came upon dark pools fed by threads of water trickling down from some source higher up the valley. Upon its outer marges under the westward mountains Mordor was a dying land, but it was not yet dead. And here things still grew, harsh, twisted, bitter, struggling for life. In the glens of the Morgai on the other side of the valley low scrubby trees lurked and clung, coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with the stones, and withered mosses crawled on them; and everywhere great writhing, tangled brambles sprawled.

Obviously what we have here are the Gardens of the Orc-wives, where they grow their orchards and their berries. It's a miserable life - the Orc-wives are 'harsh, twisted, bitter, scrabbling for life' (obviously an in-joking commentary on the lives of the wives left behind by the poorer soldiers of WWI) - but it's all they've got. Note the specific use of the word 'glens', pointing us towards the Scottish highlands where the women stayed at home while the men went a'warring; the name 'Morgai' could also be another hint, since it evokes 'Morgan', as in le Fay, noted for being a women who was not attached to a man. And of course, i think we can take this passage as proof that all Orc-wives were named Marge...

(And, come to think of it, there's no reason not to claim the 'low scrubby trees' who 'cling' and 'lurk' are another one of those endless hints at Entwives, too...!)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Taming of Smeagol

...

For a long time, this was my favoured option. Treebeard is originally described as looking like a stump, there are references to both fir and birch at the Entmoot, and the Emyn Muil is directly adjacent to the Brown Lands. The idea of Suffragists being on the edge of a cliff, or willing to throw themselves off a cliff out of spite, sounds plausible as a Tolkien opinion. There's also the notion that Sam's rope (which was tied around one of the stumps) was untied by a kindly Entwife.

I hate to come back to this, but on further consideration, I've swung back towards this passage. The key piece of evidence is the 'clusters of words' concept. Compare this:

Originally Posted by Treebeard

In the face of the stony wall there was something like a stair: natural perhaps, and made by the weathering and splitting of the rock, for it was rough and uneven. High up, almost level with the tops of forest-trees, there was a shelf under a cliff. Nothing grew there but a few grasses and weeds at its edge, and one old stump of a tree with only two bent branches left: it looked almost like the figure of some gnarled old man, standing there, blinking in the morning-light.

[...]

They came at length to the edge of the shelf almost at the feet of the old stump; then they sprang up and turned round with their backs to the hill, breathing deep, and looking out eastward.

With this:

Originally Posted by The Taming of Smeagol

Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff's brink. The bottom of the gully, which lay along the edge of a rock-fault, was rough with broken stone and slanted steeply down.

[...]

The outer fall was indeed no longer sheer, but sloped outwards a little. It looked like a great rampart or sea-wall whose foundations had shifted, so that its courses were all twisted and disordered, leaving great fissures and long slanting edges that were in places almost as wide as stairs.

[...]

With that he stood up and went down to the bottom of the gully again. He looked out. Clear sky was growing in the East once more.

[...]

He took up the rope and made it fast over the stump nearest to the brink...

Teleporno made a big deal of 'clusters of words', and in these two passages we have a whole heap of matching pairs:

• 'Something like a stair' versus 'almost as wide as stairs'.
• 'Rough and uneven' rock versus 'rough with broken stone'.
• 'One old stump' versus 'old broken stumps'.
• 'Gnarled' old man versus 'twisted' birch.
• M&P 'looked out' eastward; Frodo 'looked out', also to the East.
• M&P move 'to the edge of the shelf almost at the feet of the old stump'; Sam ties his rope 'the stump nearest to the brink'.

Both quotes also make a point that very little grows where they are, and on a trivial level, both descriptions of the view (not quoted) include smoke.

I don't think Tolkien wrote the two sequences as intentional mirrors to each other (for one thing, you can see how broken up the description in Book 4 is), but I think it's entirely possible Teleporno thought he had. It fits with the claim that they're in danger from the Nazgul (we get a Nazgul screech in the Emyn Muil sequence), and, as I said before, the Emyn Muil is right where you would expect to find fleeing Entwives: on the edge of their old lands, run right up against a cliff.

But I still rank vladimir's thicket as a close second. ^_^

hS

[Morthoron]

Teleporno...perhaps the most unfortunate name in the whole of Tolkien's canon.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Teleporno...perhaps the most unfortunate name in the whole of Tolkien's canon.

Poor J.R.R.T never dreamed that the term could one day be used for an actual prurient operation.

I still think Sam's mention of the "Tree-man" was 1. An RL move by Tolkien to foreshadow the "giant" episode he planned; and 2. An in-book appearance of a Huorn from the Old Forest.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Poor J.R.R.T never dreamed that the term could one day be used for an actual prurient operation.

If he didn't, he showed a surprising ignorance of Greek for a Classical exhibitionist. Teleporno is the Greek prefix Tele (roughly 'remote', 'at a distance' cf Television) and porno, from póron 'harlot, prostitute' (e.g. in pornocracy*). JRRT could be remarkably stubborn about his projected audience reception, as in his insistence for years that readers would associate gnomes with knowledge and wisdom as in gnomic, gnomon, and not garden ornaments.






*Apparently describing the tenth-century government of Rome.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

If he didn't, he showed a surprising ignorance of Greek for a Classical exhibitionist. Teleporno is the Greek prefix Tele (roughly 'remote', 'at a distance' cf Television) and porno, from póron 'harlot, prostitute' (e.g. in pornocracy*). JRRT could be remarkably stubborn about his projected audience reception, as in his insistence for years that readers would associate gnomes with knowledge and wisdom as in gnomic, gnomon, and not garden ornaments.

Hmm. If he was aware, maybe he just didn't think, or at least hoped, that the average English-reading consumer wouldn't make any negative association.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think it's probably more complicated than that. Whatever associations somebody might make, that was the proper form according to the phonological rules JRRT had laid down. To change it to something else would mean inventing a reason for the exception or rethinking the rules themselves, potentially having to change dozens of other names distributed around a frightening array of manuscripts. Also Tolkien preferred to write his way around problems like this rather than simply remove them. In any case, this sort of coincidental double meaning crops up in natural languages all the time. I found a reference once to a Persian personal name Nazgül, meaning 'shy rose'.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hmm. If he was aware, maybe he just didn't think, or at least hoped, that the average English-reading consumer wouldn't make any negative association.

... which would be an interesting hope, given that the word 'pornography' is attested as far back as the 1840s. Actually, 'porno' itself shows up in the OED by the '50s... I think 'Teleporno' is a 'late writings' name from Tolkien, so probably the late '60s or even early '70s.

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

I think it's probably more complicated than that. Whatever associations somebody might make, that was the proper form according to the phonological rules JRRT had laid down. To change it to something else would mean inventing a reason for the exception or rethinking the rules themselves, potentially having to change dozens of other names distributed around a frightening array of manuscripts. Also Tolkien preferred to write his way around problems like this rather than simply remove them. In any case, this sort of coincidental double meaning crops up in natural languages all the time. I found a reference once to a Persian personal name Nazgül, meaning 'shy rose'.

This I think hits close to the mark, though I'd make two additional (and slightly contradictory) points:

-I don't know that the 'Valinorean Celeborn' writings were ever aimed at publication; they could just have been Tolkien 'thinking on paper' (so to speak). He could even have had a quiet chuckle at how The Youth Of Today would probably read the name.

-'Teleporno' isn't the pure Quenya form (which would be 'Telporno') - it's Telerin, a language that... well, wasn't used for much at all. 'Alatariel' and 'Telperion' are the only other words of note that use it - and 'Telperion' uses a different form of the word for 'silver'! Obviously 'Telpeorno' would sound <i>horrifying</i> to Elvish ears, but I'm sure Tolkien could have come up with a different form if he'd felt the need. The compound form 'Telep(i)' was literally never used other than in 'Teleporno' itself, and he actually rejected 'Telepimpar' for 'Telperimpar' as a translation of 'Celebrimbor'. So we could have had 'Telperorno'.

(Yeah, there's a tele-pimp as well as tele-porn, I know, I know.)

hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't know that the 'Valinorean Celeborn' writings were ever aimed at publication; they could just have been Tolkien 'thinking on paper' (so to speak). He could even have had a quiet chuckle at how The Youth Of Today would probably read the name.

The first part seems reasonable, the second: not so much. Tolkien just doesn't give the appearance of a man who would have found that amusing.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The first part seems reasonable, the second: not so much. Tolkien just doesn't give the appearance of a man who would have found that amusing.

I'd generally agree, but... there is that fact that he created a handful of Gnomish & Qenya words relating to sexuality. While he generally comes across as being almost entirely uninterested in that sort of thing, it's always worth considering that one's private thoughts can be very different to one's public presentation.

At the very least, we know that he enjoyed wordplay; so while he may not have been amused himself, I'm sure he wouldn't take offense at us being so.

hS