Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

If you've been to York, perhaps you can imagine what it was like 1100 years ago, and use it as a sort of blue-print for Edoras, using your imagination of course!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

Well we're out of the Hall now and on our way into town Form. But we have a slight problem in that I have no idea what is around the place that Kara can show you! Any ideas? What would Nain like to see?

Merry Christmas to everybody! Enjoy your days.

Náin would likely, shortly after first arriving in Edoras, have been to Meduseld to see the King (his presence being a boon from King Thorin III to King Eomer), but I doubt if he's seen much else of the town. Of course, all this does is comfortably eliminate the only landmark of which we are really familiar with in Edoras.

Hmm... I suppose there are the mounds of the Kings. Or maybe a graveyard area in general. As a stone-carver, Náin's professional interest would be anything that's stone, and a graveyard seems like the best place to look for stone carvings, though I don't know that headstones would have been the norm...

Other than that, what else might be stone in Edoras? Let's work with that as a basis, since Náin is both interested in stone, and anything with stone would most likely be the grandest place in town. What does one normally see when sight-seeing? Churches, palaces, natural vistas...

Well, Churches are out, this being Middle-Earth, and I'm not thinking of any real equivalent, other than the King's Hall, which Náin has already seen.

Palaces= Houses, manors, castles, villas, mansions... There might be one or two houses of note in Edoras, but how much sight-seeing could one really do, people living there and all?

And natural vistas...

I'm guessing that if one went out of the city, there could be all kinds of things here, this being right in the foothills of the mountains and all. There could be waterfalls, lakes, streams, caves. Is any of this really suitable for the sort of day we seem to have been leading up to though?

And that leaves... well, I'm thinking places of burial, be they mounds, graveyards, or whatnot... Could there be a town square in Edoras- possibly with some of the finest buildings in town around? Náin may be a stone carver, but wood-carving would interest him. Maybe a town fountain? Or is Edoras "green" enough to have parks/royal preserves/etc...?

I think the problem I'm encountering is that most of things one goes normally to "tour" are the sorts of things that only really appeared come the Renaissance... which is a bit post-Rohirric in nature. Could there be any old Gondorian ruins in the area? Gondor ruled Calenardhon for two and a half millennia. Maybe there was a big ranch house or something in the vale...

Lots of random speculations... note sure where we're going.

[littlemanpoet]

I would not protest if you use the movie as a guide to what might be found in Edoras, since I trust the two primary artists for their faithfulness to Tolkien's settings far more than I do the director's faithfulness to Tolkien's characters and themes. So if you have the movie, take a look at Edoras on that, and proceed accordingly.

Having said that, I tend to think that the Edoras of the movies is a rather spartan business, and does not account for the variety of trades that had to exist in the Third Age of Middle Earth in Rohan. Rex Anglorum may help in this regard.

Tanners
Wainwrights
Carpenters
Stone shapers
Goatherds
Horse breeders
sellers of various dry goods
fletchers
smiths
teamsters
the list goes on.....

[Lhunardawen]

I'm sorry for my long and sudden disappearance! And to prevent this from happening again, I'll say as early as now that I'll be gone from the 28th (wait...that's tomorrow!) until probably the 2nd of January. I'll run off to read the thread now and post while I may.

[Kath]

Well now if we combine these ideas we might be able to form some kind of tour for Nain and Kara.

We're going into town first so we could start with wandering that and looking at all the different trades going on. Nain is a craftsman (or dwarf) after all so might he be interested in that?

Then we could head out of town to some of these Gondorian ruins. Those would presumably be made of stone? Perhaps it could be like when you go to an old castle and all you can see of how it was is the small inch or so high remains of the walls.

By this time it would probably be lunch and so we could head to the more picturesque parts of Edoras with open plains and little waterfalls, and stop in some nice place for a bite to eat.

And then on the way home we could pass old burial mounds and Nain could have a wonderful time explaining the old customs and how tombs were shaped to Kara.

If this sounds like absolute rubbish please feel free to tell me.

[JennyHallu]

I'm back!

LMP, when is Eodwine going to address Marenil?

And what is the time of year, again? I'm lost, time wise.

[littlemanpoet]

I believe, without taking a close look, that it's late May. I'm going to have to start posting the date at the beginning of each new Day. I can see that now.

Jenny, since Eodwine is a rather unorganized chap, he does what comes into his head. If he happens to see Marenil about, he'll be sure to remember to talk to him. If he doesn't, he's apt to forget until something else reminds him. Every character has weaknesses, and absent mindedness is one of Eodwine's glaring ones.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

If this sounds like absolute rubbish please feel free to tell me.

Not like rubbish at all. Sounds like a plan to me. Which means that either you need to post, or I do (well, I guess it's my turn...).

Assuming that I'm going next, look to the computer screen ere tomorrow night (or later, you being in England).

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kath

Then we could head out of town to some of these Gondorian ruins. Those would presumably be made of stone? Perhaps it could be like when you go to an old castle and all you can see of how it was is the small inch or so high remains of the walls.

If this sounds like absolute rubbish please feel free to tell me.

Actually, just one piece of rubbish..... other than the rundown ruins themselves..... the ruins are Numenorean, not Gondorian. I imagine that this distinction might not be lost on the Dwarf.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Actually, just one piece of rubbish..... other than the rundown ruins themselves..... the ruins are Numenorean, not Gondorian. I imagine that this distinction might not be lost on the Dwarf.

No, the ruins are Gondorian.

And the distinction would most certainly not be lost on Náin.

Númenoreans started settling in Middle-Earth in the mid-Second Century, but it is quite clear from the Appendices and extra-LotR writings that they didn't settle much beyond the Anduin delta, around Pelargir, and in Eriador, near the realm of Gil-galad.

Neither area includes Calenardhon.

It is only after the fall of Númenor, and the establishment of the realms of Gondor and Arnor under Elendil and his sons that the Dúnedain settle further inland. The hundred years or so under Isildur and Anárion is a time of great expansion and fortress-building in Gondor. (The Argonath, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, the Stone of Erech-- for sure.) Undoubtedly, these earliest architectural structures would have been as Númenorean in style and design as any ediface lining the streets of Andúnië or Arminelos, but they were constructed under Gondorian rule.

Furthermore, Gondor continued to rule over Calenardhon for another 2500 years, until the arrival of the Éotheod half a millennium before the War of the Ring. And as Kath's castle examples from England will show, five hundred years is plenty of time for impressive stone edifices to become forlorn ruins. Thus, any time between the arrival of the Dúnedain (and the founding of the Kingdom of Gondor) and the arrival of the Eorlings (and the ceding of Calenardhon by the Gondorians) would be a candidate for the construction of any "ruins".

Additionally, since Calenardhon was never densely populated, a time somewhere in the middle of that time period (well past when "Númenorean" would have been an applicable term), after Gondor's population had reached its zenith, but before it began to wane, would be a sensible time for some moderately-sized ruins in the Edoras region to have been first planted. Let's give it an approximate date of... 1000 T.A., a full 1100 years after the fall of Númenor.

So it is Gondorian. Not rubbish at all.

And um... yeah... I should go direct my energy to something useful. Like a post. Or maybe a PM reply. Anyway, no personal animosity is intended or felt... I just haven't let my picky side out in a while.

[littlemanpoet]

Very well, I stand corrected. Carry on. And post to the rpg thread.

[JennyHallu]

I think perhaps we should say "serving girl" rather than "wench".

"Wench", according to the Houghton Mifflin thesaurus, means a vulgar woman who flouts propriety. Seems to have definite connotations on the wanton side of things, and though it would be common practice for a medieval innkeeper, I doubt any Middle-Earth lord such as Eodwine rents out his girls.

[Folwren]

Elempi, I don't know if you're aware, but you posted your last post twice on the game thread. I thought you might like to be told.

And I hope to finally post something tonight. We'll see.

-- Foley

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I think perhaps we should say "serving girl" rather than "wench".

"Wench", according to the Houghton Mifflin thesaurus, means a vulgar woman who flouts propriety. Seems to have definite connotations on the wanton side of things, and though it would be common practice for a medieval innkeeper, I doubt any Middle-Earth lord such as Eodwine rents out his girls.

From Online Etymology Dictionary comes this:

wench
c.1290 wenche "girl or young woman," shortened from wenchel "child" (12c.), from O.E. wencel, probably related to wancol "unsteady, fickle, weak," and cognate with O.N. vakr "child, weak person," O.H.G. wanchal "fickle." The word degenerated through being used in ref. to servant girls, and by 1362 was being used in a sense of "woman of loose morals, mistress." The verb meaning "to associate with common women" is from 1599.

"The wenche is nat dead, but slepith." [Wyclif, Matt. ix.24, c.1380]

In Rohan we are dealing with a culture that is pre-1362.

Thanks, Foley, I will correct the error.

[Lhunardawen]

In the words of Sam, Jenny, and a lot of other people, I'm back!

I'll be posting tomorrow...I hope.

[Kath]

Right I've posted for Kara and I have just noticed lmp that you did in fact come into the kitchen with Ginna (seems I haven't been keeping up!) so I'll wait to see what Lhuna wants to do before I post for Frodides.

[Celuien]

Here's the thing...

Everytime I reread the thread, "wench" is really jumping out at me. While it may have had a proper use to refer to servants pre-1362, the current connotations of the word for a post-1362 reader are a little disconcerting.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

wench
c.1290 wenche "girl or young woman," shortened from wenchel "child" (12c.), from O.E. wencel, probably related to wancol "unsteady, fickle, weak," and cognate with O.N. vakr "child, weak person," O.H.G. wanchal "fickle." The word degenerated through being used in ref. to servant girls, and by 1362 was being used in a sense of "woman of loose morals, mistress." The verb meaning "to associate with common women" is from 1599.

"The wenche is nat dead, but slepith." [Wyclif, Matt. ix.24, c.1380]

Also, I'm wondering about the original connotation of the word (which , of course, I can't personally attest to, not having been around in the 1300s ).
Connections to being fickle aren't quite complimentary, and I just have to wonder if the connotation of the word was ever particularly good, especially considering the meaning of loose morals that it took on between 1290 and 1362 - not a particularly long period of time.

*shrugs* I'm no linguist, but I think I would personally prefer serving girl to wench.

Sorry to stir things up and run, but I'm going to be away for the next few days. See you by Tuesday at the latest.

[Folwren]

It cracks me up how much you guys are hashing over the meaning of that word. I don't care what you decide doing. I've mainly heard it in the past in a Robin Hood movie of ours, when Robin called over the serving girl in an ale house.

-- Foley

[Formendacil]

I'm with Folwren in not caring... but I'm with Celuien in disliking the word. And here's why:

In the Lord of the Rings, Tolkien used MODERN English for all of his peoples. The idiom and nomenclature of the Rohirrim and Dúnedain is certainly more archaic in phrasing and in vocabulary, but the entire nomenclature is readily understandable to a 20th century (or 21st) English-speaker with a decent vocabulary and/or basic dictionary.

At least... I fit that category, and found it so.

Tolkien's English throughout is modern. For the nobler cultures it harkens back in style to the Elizabethan, but it has modern spelling and modern usage. A word like "wench" therefore, would be used in an Elizabethan or modern usage, not a pre-Chaucerian usage (unless it was in Old English, and thus Rohirric). For the sake of following Tolkien's lead, I would be opposed to the usage of the word wench, personally.

But it's really just my opinion. I don't honestly care.

(A post for Náin should be up before this time tomorrow. Want to get a post in ere I go on retreat this weekend.)

[Nogrod]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion over etymologies and the proper use of different ages old English (or the need of it). Interesting and teasing, but at this hour I can't meddle in, happily so perhaps...

I have been having a lot of troubles with my net access and also having some pretty nice holidays. I will be spending some more "quality-time" with my daughters for a couple of days but will then come back to see if our family (from my part) should have anything to do with the things going on. At least Cnebba and Garmund might be taken to their tasks and what follows thereof.

Lommy will be back one day or another pretty soon, but will probably be able to make an actual post the next week at earliest (as I myself).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Noggie

Lommy will be back one day or another pretty soon, but will probably be able to make an actual post the next week at earliest (as I myself).

Indeed.

I must say you've all been pretty active while I've been away. But that's a good thing and I think you've all written great posts!

As to serving wench, I have come across with it quite many times in different occasions, and it doesn't disturb me.

[Celuien]

Just time for a quick check in before hitting the road.

I suppose I don't particularly mind the use of wench, keeping in mind that it was once used to refer to servants, but be warned that if anyone used it in reference to me, I would probably go off on a lengthy rant about the connotations mentioned above. So that's where I'm coming from.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You know, an old friend used to call me 'wench' as a term of endearment... At least I think it was.

With Saeryn safely out of sight of the general plotline, and Degas busy doing Degas type things, and Farahil floating around Dol Amroth, I'm safely uncommited to this. I'll jump back in should I have desire, which I probably won't in the near future. But I'll keep tabs on the discussion thread if anybody needs me.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm wondering about the original connotation of the word (which , of course, I can't personally attest to, not having been around in the 1300s ).
Connections to being fickle aren't quite complimentary, and I just have to wonder if the connotation of the word was ever particularly good, especially considering the meaning of loose morals that it took on between 1290 and 1362 - not a particularly long period of time.

That's the trouble with any comparison to real life usages. What we discover from our history is that attitudes were by and large uglier than we find in LotR amongst the Free Peoples. The etymology below shows the medieval tendency to view women as the root of evil, as they are all descendants of Eve.

fickle
O.E. ficol "deceitful," related to befician "deceive," and to facen "deceit, treachery." Common Gmc. (cf. O.S. fekan, O.H.G. feihhan "deceit, fraud, treachery"), from PIE *peig- "evil-minded, treacherous, hostile" (cf. L. piget "it irks, troubles, displeases," piger "reluctant, lazy"). Sense of "changeable" is first recorded c.1275.

Interesting how you can see the word "fake" in there.

A fun little discussion, but also a rabbit trail, I suppose. Please understand the use of 'wench' in the EMH as a professional title equivalent to 'waitress', for that's what's actually being talked about; as any of you will know, all my posts speak of young women as 'lasses' or 'ladies'. I'm NOT going to allow the term "waitress" to show up as a designation for the role, as that would be an anachronism! Blah.

[JennyHallu]

But "wench" doesn't mean waitress, and you don't use it merely to refer to waitress, but just as a generic term for a working girl, no matter her station or role. And I would be satisfied with the phrases "serving girl", "kitchen helper", "scullery maid", anything that doesn't mean, to the readers here, "strumpet". Besides, to refer to commoners as "ladies" is a much bigger misuse of a technical term.

EDIT: And technically, can a word be an anachronism when technically everything's in translation anyway? It is a poor translation that deliberately uses phrases and words unfamiliar to those who read the new text, unless they are technical terms explained in footnotes, as in translations of Aristotle's Poetics.

[littlemanpoet]

The decision on "wench" has been made.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(A post for Náin should be up before this time tomorrow. Want to get a post in ere I go on retreat this weekend.)

Well, it took me more than a day longer than planned, but a post for Náin is up. Your turn, m'lady Kath.

[Lhunardawen]

Ginna doesn't mind being called a wench, anyway. She had been called worse.

[Folwren]

What needs to be done to get this thread moving again?

Tara, I do intend on writing a post sometime or other with Thornden. Can I address Lys? I still don't know what Thornden is going to suggest to Lys that he can do... Does anyone have any ideas? Tara, have you anything in mind?

Time for dinner.

-- Folwren

[Firefoot]

What needs to be done to get this thread moving again?

I plan on posting this weekend. This week has been hectic for me (and my school is silly, so finals are next week, which isn't helping) - I've known what I've wanted to write for a couple days now (exact lines, even) but no time. But if this week is any indication, my main posting time may be on the weekends (for all my RPG's, since that affects many of you elsewhere as well). I'll do what I can, though.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm waiting for Jenny to have Marenil give a response to Eodwine.

I'm not sure who needs to post next, in terms of getting Falco and 'Rilef' in the clutches of Frodides.

It's too early in the day to post anything for Garreth and Harreld. So that's where I'm at.

[JennyHallu]

You're waiting on me? I didn't think a response was needed. The way I read your last post with Eodwine, he helped Marenil up and then continued on with Ginna and away from Marenil.

[Taralphiel]

Originally Posted by Folwren

What needs to be done to get this thread moving again?

Tara, I do intend on writing a post sometime or other with Thornden. Can I address Lys? I still don't know what Thornden is going to suggest to Lys that he can do... Does anyone have any ideas? Tara, have you anything in mind?

Time for dinner.

-- Folwren

You certainly can address him. I've actually felt a teensy bit put out that I've had nobody else to get Lys to talk to. No matter, fixed now!

No, I still have no idea. He's a crafty type, good with thread (though it doesn't seem to be entirely appropriate for that to be his profession) and he's also a bit of an artist, I think. Though that also has it's limits. Maybe leatherworking? Designing on saddles and such?

If anyone has any ideas for a boy the stature and age as Lys, please let me know.

- Tara

[Kath]

Whoops, sorry Form it seems Kara has left Nain hanging! I'll get onto that soon.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

Whoops, sorry Form it seems Kara has left Nain hanging! I'll get onto that soon.

No hurries... Náin's author is lazy.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

You're waiting on me? I didn't think a response was needed. The way I read your last post with Eodwine, he helped Marenil up and then continued on with Ginna and away from Marenil.

Ack! You are so right. Ya see, Lhuna and Kath have been copying me on a PM post they're building that includes copy that Eodwine goes back to sit with Randver and Marenil. That has not been posted yet. My sorry. Hope you don't mind patiently waiting for Lhuna and Kath to post. (*Ahem! Lhuna & Kath...*)

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Ack! You are so right. Ya see, Lhuna and Kath have been copying me on a PM post they're building that includes copy that Eodwine goes back to sit with Randver and Marenil. That has not been posted yet. My sorry. Hope you don't mind patiently waiting for Lhuna and Kath to post. (*Ahem! Lhuna & Kath...*)

Eek! Mea culpa. School's been pretty crazy for me, too. Yes, please wait patiently for us.

[Kath]

It's getting there oh impatient one. Shouldn't be too long now.

[Kath]

Tada! Lhuna if you see anything you want changed just yell and I'll do it.

[JennyHallu]

I've got about 10 billion things on my plate right now, so I don't mind waiting at all...