Riddles in the Downs

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not as easy as you think it is! At least for me.

Don't worry, I just was indulging in a bit of smug irony there– I'd really put this at a moderate level of difficulty. (It should, though, be easier than the last.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I can think of lots of people who fit into one half of the riddle but not the other, and none of them really fit into both! I'll just have to keep trying, then...

*shrug* If you like– but remember, the last one was solved through a series of partial guesses.

[Nerwen]

I see we're on a new page now, so I'll re-post the riddle:

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow;
Shadow I helped defeat.

Patient was I, but rash move I made.
Madness tore me; now at last I
Know what it is to sleep.

[Galadriel55]

The person that fits most of the ones that I thought of is Saruman.
Faithful I, - the flaw in this guess
yet I my lord betrayed - well, he did. He betrayed Eru.
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - aka Sauron
Shadow I helped defeat. - well, half of TTT is about Saruman's double treachery.

Patient was I, but rash move I made. - in "The Voice of Saruman", he begins as a patient but slightly annoyed superior, but then he looses control over himself
Madness tore me; - don't you think he was a bit mad when he met Frodo&others on their way to Rivendell, and even madder in The Scouring of the Shire?
now at last I Know what it is to sleep. - ieI DIED

Doesn't really fit, but fits more than other traitors that I considered. I have the feeling that the real answer is pretty obvious, and its laughing at me right now

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I haven't been able to come up with anything sensible for some time, all the time the word "faithful" made me think of Númenoreans, but actually, now after reading G55's guess, I thought of Gollum.

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed - good Sméagol always helps the Master, but is a little treacherous, preciouss
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - Sauron or maybe even Shelob, weaving her webs of shadow
Shadow I helped defeat. - yet in fact destroyed the Ring

Patient was I, but rash move I made. - managed to wait for his Ring for quite long, but then made a rash move - it was definitely a rash move to step where there was no ground on the edge of the crater anyway
Madness tore me; - I think nobody of us doubts that he was mad, and it even tore him in two parts, right, PJ...
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - sleeping in a rather warm bed...

[Nerwen]

No, it's not Saruman. A clever guess, however. And in fact I guess you could make the "faithful" part fit– presumably, he was faithful before he, er, wasn't... but in fact the first line is more applicable to the party in question than that.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

now at last I Know what it is to sleep. - ieI DIED

Yes, that does of course mean "the big sleep"– but the exact wording is important.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Doesn't really fit, but fits more than other traitors that I considered. I have the feeling that the real answer is pretty obvious, and its laughing at me right now.

Yes and no. The answer isn't obscure– I mean, it's not some minor character who only appears in a fragment in Volume such-and-such of HoME, or anything like that. However, I'll tell you now that there are some "trick" lines.

EDIT:X'd with Legate.

[Nerwen]

Legate–

Ah. Now that is a most ingenious solution, and fits all points nicely. It is, however, wrong.

It does show something of the right approach, though.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, that does of course mean "the big sleep"– but the exact wording is important.

What does she have in her mind, my preciousss, yesss, we wondersssss... an Elf, perhaps? Luthien doesn't really fit, and Arwen fits even less... Perhaps an Elf that was killed? We knows many Elves, bad cluel Elves with bright eyes... Feanor, maybe?

Faithful I, yet I my lord betrayed - ????who exactly did he betray? The Valar? Not lords. Finwe? Wasn't really betrayed, he was just really upset with Feanor. ????
To serve the one who wielded shadow; - served Morgoth's purposes
Shadow I helped defeat. - well, that's what The Sil is about, and Feanor kinda started it
Patient was I, - must have been: how long does it take to make a perfect Silmaril?
but rash move I made. - um, half his life was made of rash moves, most prominent of which is the kinslaying at Alqualonde
Madness tore me; - well, what else would you call his rebellion? Not wisdom, for sure!
now at last I know what it is to sleep. - yes, he can calm down forever *evil grin*

[Nerwen]

Galadriel55– another very clever answer. But as you point out yourself, the first line would be a stretch. The answer to this riddle betrayed a certain, specific lord, and played a more immediate role in "defeating shadow".

I did wonder if someone would guess Fëanor, though.

And again, you're also taking the right approach (in a different way).

[Pitchwife]

Is it Húrin?

Faithful I - his epithet Thalion, the Steadfast, and his resistance to Morgoth's attempt to win him over;
yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow - "Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech!", giving away the location of Gondolin to Morgoth's eavesdropping spies;
Shadow I helped defeat. - hmm, maybe by covering Turgon's retreat from the Nirnaeth so that Eärendil could be born and raised in Gondolin?

Patient was I - sitting on Thangorodrim all those years, forced to watch Morgoth TV;
but rash move I made.
Madness tore me - could refer to his dealings with the Woodmen in Brethil, or to the affair with Thingol and the Nauglamír;
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - finding ease of his torments in death; part of Morgoth's curse was that he couldn't die before Morgoth released him.

[Nerwen]

No, it is not Húrin. However, that is the best guess yet, and more the right sort of answer.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Faithful I - his epithet Thalion, the Steadfast, and his resistance to Morgoth's attempt to win him over;

(...)

now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - finding ease of his torments in death; part of Morgoth's curse was that he couldn't die before Morgoth released him.

Again, this is not the solution, but you're right in looking for someone for whom those lines have particular significance.

Also, remember what I said earlier: there are a couple of "trick" lines; what I might call riddles-within-a-riddle. Working out what these really mean would be a great help to you.

*smiles mysteriously*

[Urwen]

The Unhappy?

Faithful I - Well, he was faithful till the kidnapping
yet I my lord betrayed - for sake of his wife
To serve the one who wielded shadow - Sauron,sort of
Shadow I helped defeat. - He warned the son of his lord of incoming danger; also, were it not for his treachery, the biggest couple of First age may not have met each other and Silmaril would still be with Morgoth

Patient was I - He always returned to check on his wife
but rash move I made. - One day, he heard her calling, rushed to see her and thus was captured etc.
Madness tore me - Grief for his wife
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - died

I explained all the lines!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I explained all the lines!

Yes, you did, my dear, well done– only it isn't Gorlim. About time someone guessed him, though. I thought it would be much earlier.

You are now verrrry warm.

But remember– trick lines!

[Galadriel55]

Um, Wormtongue?

Faithful I - as Gandalf said, for many years he served Theoden faithfully, as he could
yet I my lord betrayed
To serve the one who wielded shadow - aka Saruman
Shadow I helped defeat. - killed Saruman
Patient was I - gradually loosening Theoden's will and "poisoning his thoughts"
but rash move I made. - Maybe how he spit at Theoden?
Madness tore me - Killed Saruman when he was...pretty angry
now at last I
Know what it is to sleep. - well, he constantly had to be vigilant with his "master", be it Theoden or Saruman. When he died, it must have been something of a relief not to constantly be on the watch...

[Nerwen]

...but no, it is not Wormtongue. That's getting colder again... look at my replies to the last two guesses.

[Urwen]

So, I think that 'Shadow' isn't neccessarily bad (since Hurin was close, and Gorlim even closer, I think it's someone from the tale of Beren and Luthien)

Am I hitting close?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So, I think that 'Shadow' isn't neccessarily bad (since Hurin was close, and Gorlim even closer, I think it's someone from the tale of Beren and Luthien)

Am I hitting close?

*nods emphatically*

[skip spence]

Could be that dog, Celegorm's dog. Huan was his name, wasn't it?

I don't get the "madness tore me" line but the others seem to fit well enough.

[Galadriel55]

And if it's Huan, the "shadow" who he serves would be Luthien with her cloak And if you take "madness tore me" literally, you'll get "mad Carcharoth tore at me"! It all fits! You're a genius, Skip!!!
That was a really good clue, Nerwen! Usually, people put symbollic clues that you cannot take literally, but here you put one that has a simple literal meaning! It confused everybody!

Assuming it is Huan...

[Nerwen]

It is indeed Huan. Well done, skip!

And honourable mention goes to Urwen and G55– the latter for explaining "madness tore me".

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Usually, people put symbollic clues that you cannot take literally, but here you put one that has a simple literal meaning! It confused everybody!

That was the plan. I was inspired by some earlier riddles that used much the same technique.

[Galadriel55]

If I stick around for another couple o' years, maybe I'll get somewhat better at this...
Great job, skip! Looking forward to your riddle!

[Flame of Udûn]

Well this is my first post and it has been over 10 days (just) the riddle's pretty simple:

For long in exile I was to stay
A star shining bright as day
In lament the harpers often sing
I died at the hand of he who would be king

[Urwen]

It's either Celegorm or Arwen. For former, it's obvious... for latter, the king led her to accepting death... and she eventually die... or Feanor, if you consider Gothmog a king... or Elwe...or even Olwe... died at Feanor's hand. Or Elenwe, if you suppose that Helcaraxe was a King of nature...

I'm sota confused... so I'll wait for someone else to post, and then draw the answer from the riddle itself and previous guesses...

EDIT: On second thought, I'm guessing Tar-Meneldur. He willingly resigned in favour of his son, and thus his rule was killed. Or even his unfortunate daughter-in-law, Erendis, who drowned herself in the sea...

[Flame of Udûn]

nope afraid not keep trying i may try and get another verse done or will try to clarify certain words I think the use of hand and king in the last line will throw some people off

[Galadriel55]

For long in exile I was to stay - being a Noldor
A star shining bright as day - gil-galad=light of stars
In lament the harpers often sing - Gil-galad was an elven king, of him the harpers sadly sing...
I died at the hand of he who would be king - Sauron would rule ME (ie be king ) if Elendil and Gil-galad didn't stop him

[Urwen]

I was thinking him too. But like he said, the last line throws people off. So,I don't think it's him. I will not stop, however. Anyway, I'll be sure would-be-king isn't actually king. Therefore, I have a solid guess. It might not fit too well, but I will still guess it.

Morgoth himself (that's where would-be-king fits in) said...

"My hatred will forever be upon them, and my hand will follow them and lead them to bitter death... they'll die without hope, cursing both life and death.

But, as if to spite him, my namesake died before his 'hand' could reach her. Therefore, she is renowned for escaping Morgoth's power... the star hint could refer to this.

Then, after her merciful death, her papa tried to make a lament for her. On a HARP.

Lastly, Morgoth is the would-be-king...

A bit far-fetched, but we learn from mistakes, don't we?

My guess remains Urwen. (Also known as Lalaith)

[Flame of Udûn]

galadriel got it though the last line has one extra little bit the first part (I died at the hand...) is not just about Sauron killing him but how he killed him (with the heat from his hands) but thats just me nit picking so take it away

[Galadriel55]

Thanks!
This riddle is a bit short, and if it sounds too obscure I can add another couple of lines.

We're first and we're second,
Just once we have met.
One threw himself to his end,
The other on an untraveled path set.

[Ironfoot]

That sounds too much like Turin and Tuor, but by some miraculous fate I'm probably wrong.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ironfoot

That sounds too much like Turin and Tuor, but by some miraculous fate I'm probably wrong.

However, you are correct! This is the second time I posted a riddle, and the second time it has been solved in less than a day.
Do you care to explain the lines, or should I?

[Ironfoot]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, you are correct! This is the second time I posted a riddle, and the second time it has been solved in less than a day.
Do you care to explain the lines, or should I?

Well, that's what happens after being unable to guess your other riddle in that other thread. The lines describe Turin, being the eldest cousin and Tuor the younger, upon the Pool of Ivrin where Tuor witnessed his cousins madness. Sadly, Turin did not even notice him...and as everyone knows, Turin asked Gurthang to slay him and he did, but Tuor's path was unknown at that time and nether did he know the great heights he would achieve.

Now I have to make a riddle! Have done haiku's but not riddles before...let's try this one. Hopefully wont be terribly difficult, or terrible in writing for that matter.

Older brother of my greater kin
but not diminished in legacy
I lie sleeping with the shadows
but not diminished in potency

The corrupted have defiled me
and my masters weep in their hearts
I had hoped my brother fared better
with our master's eternal art

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Ironfoot

The lines describe Turin, being the eldest cousin and Tuor the younger, upon the Pool of Ivrin where Tuor witnessed his cousins madness. Sadly, Turin did not even notice him...and as everyone knows, Turin asked Gurthang to slay him and he did, but Tuor's path was unknown at that time and nether did he know the great heights he would achieve.

When I made the riddle, I thought that it's so weird that Turin and Tuor are first cousins though their fathers Hurin and Huor, and second cousins through Morwen and Rian, so that's what the first line is about. You got the other clues right - they met near Ivrin but didn't recognize each other, Turin threw himself onto Gurthang, and Tuor sailed to Valinor.

As for your riddle, it makes me think of Manwe and Morgoth, but I have the feeling that's not the answer.

[Ironfoot]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When I made the riddle, I thought that it's so weird that Turin and Tuor are first cousins though their fathers Hurin and Huor, and second cousins through Morwen and Rian, so that's what the first line is about. You got the other clues right - they met near Ivrin but didn't recognize each other, Turin threw himself onto Gurthang, and Tuor sailed to Valinor.

As for your riddle, it makes me think of Manwe and Morgoth, but I have the feeling that's not the answer.

Your feelings are right! It's not the answer.

[Galadriel55]

Somehow the riddle akes e think it's soe object that had an earlier "draft" or "prototype". Like the Rings of Power - the Dwarf's and Men's Rings were "practice work" for the Elvish ones, as well as the Ruling Ring (hence elder brother of my greater kin). "Sleeping with the shadows" could then mean that the nine Rings given to Men enslaved the Nazgul, who kept quiet until their time came. The second stanza crushed the whole guess though. The corrupted who defiled would be Sauron, but then what? The Men's Rings are upset that the Ruling Ring rules them and does evil?

[Ironfoot]

You're getting warmer with Sauron, that is the right direction. He has something to do with it, albeit indirectly. The rings are cold, very cold. I will admit the way I worded this is a bit tricky, so I may add another stanza down the road if people need it.

[Galadriel55]

Another shot in the dark - Arnor? "Older brother" of Gondor that outlasted it, thus becoming greater. The ruins of Arnorian cities are filled with shadows, and I guess you could say that the people - ie rangers - are like shadows. The Witch-King (who was corrupted by Sauron) destroyed Arnor, and "weeping masters" would be the Chieftains grieving for the loss. The "eternal art" could be a lot of things with a stretch ... It might be that it's the Reunited Kingdom that is eternal because it outlasted and will yet outlast many a thing, and "master" would be Elendil...

[Ironfoot]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Another shot in the dark - Arnor? "Older brother" of Gondor that outlasted it, thus becoming greater. The ruins of Arnorian cities are filled with shadows, and I guess you could say that the people - ie rangers - are like shadows. The Witch-King (who was corrupted by Sauron) destroyed Arnor, and "weeping masters" would be the Chieftains grieving for the loss. The "eternal art" could be a lot of things with a stretch ... It might be that it's the Reunited Kingdom that is eternal because it outlasted and will yet outlast many a thing, and "master" would be Elendil...

Ok, a little warmer since we're thinking locations now...but its not Arnor and Gondor. You are right about the eternal art outlasting many a thing. But which eternal art is it? This one is not as obvious.

[Evisse the Blue]

An obvious guess: Minas Morgul / Minas Ithil?

The 'eternal art' would then refer to Aragorn's power of healing, and so the 'brother' - Minas Tirith would 'fare better', from the end of the Third Age onwards. (while Minas Morgul would, even after Sauron's destruction, remain abandoned).

[Ironfoot]

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

An obvious guess: Minas Morgul / Minas Ithil?

The 'eternal art' would then refer to Aragorn's power of healing, and so the 'brother' - Minas Tirith would 'fare better', from the end of the Third Age onwards. (while Minas Morgul would, even after Sauron's destruction, remain abandoned).

That's not it, but that is an interesting way of interpreting it. Places is the correct line of thought, but these places are not as commonly named as the towers of the sun and moon. As for eternal art, there are many kinds, some mystical and others not so much.

[Evisse the Blue]

Old Forest?

[Ironfoot]

Not quite, but it is close to Eriador so you're getting warmer in that respect.