Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Saraphim]

Ophelia! that was the funniest, yet most depressing things I have ever read. That girl must not have even watched the movies, let alone even read the back covers of the books!
May the ghost of Tolkien have mercy on her.

Anyway>> I once wrote a fan fic for the BD, but whoever screens them apperently found one of my characters to be Mary-Sue after a couple of chapters. So here I am trying to discern why.
Ah well. We must all learn from our mistakes, but I'm afraid that poor girl with the Laura-Sue should seriously consider never going near a pen, pencil, or microsoft word ever again. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Ainaserkewen]

4) After receiving "Great story, but it's a Mary-Sue" reviews, the author took pains to make the heroine less 'Sue-ish by having characters dislike her, having her act b*tchy and human sometimes and having her *not* end up with one of the canon characters that we know ends up with someone else.

Making other characters like her less and her showing off her "not-so-nice" side in my opinion doesn't make her less of a Sue. I once read a terrible Mary-Sue where the protagonist is beautiful, is on the arm of Kaiba Seto(the richest 17 year old ever) and has all these great (canon charater) friends. Other characters were put there to "get in her way" kind of a pathetic attempt to create conflict, they have cat fights, but everybody else still loves the Sue best even though she has emotions like jealousy and hatred and stuff. I shall read that fan fic you mentioned Lily, and get back to you.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I have started to read the "Best Mary-Sue Fic Ever", and I do have to agree with that title; it is beautifully written. I'm really enjoying it. Hannon le for the link! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Elennar Starfire]

Another question I have on fanfic, though a bit off-topic. What is slash? Something not good, I believe?

[Tinker]

Ah slash. "Something not good, I believe?"

Well now, that's a matter of personal beliefs is it not? Both on the books and life.

But before I drown in Deep Thought, I'll tell you. Slash is fanfiction that involves same-gender relationships. Sometimes (okay okay, most times) it is sexual. Not a huge fan of it myself, though I have glanced at a few and read some amazingly done ones where the slash was purely emotional (or at least Love was put forward rather than Sex).

As Far as Tolkien goes, you can find a lot of Sam/Frodo, a fair bit of Merry/Pippin slash, and some other varities I can't think of right now. I remember reading a fanfiction once where those hobbits got connected to the internet and read those stories. It was hilarious. If I could only remember where it was.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

The term slash comes from the slash mark "/" that is put between the names of the same-sex couple (usually men) in question. (Same sex romance stories involving women are sometimes called "fem-slash".) The more "dominant" male's name is usually written before the "/". I think slash first showed up in Star Trek fanfiction, where apparently Kirk/Spock stories were the rage for a while. (Eurrgh.)

Another popular pair in Middle Earth fanfiction seems to be Aragorn/Legolas. I have stayed away from ME slash stories, mostly because the characters are made to say and do the most out-of-character things. Who could really believe that Aragorn would dump Arwen for *anybody*? Or that Legolas would weep constantly over him? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

-Lily

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:39 PM January 24, 2004: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Elennar Starfire]

Many thanks for enlightening my ignorance! (eeyuch though!)

[dragoneyes]

Slash can be hilarious, sometimes you don't even need to read the story and you burst out laughing, the pairings alone are amazing, for example, I have seen a Legolas/Smaug story [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I didn't read it, even though it looked to be *ahem* interesting.

I have found the hobbits-read-slash-on-the-internet story.

Anyhow, I have had my fair share of Mary-Sues, they can be hard to avoid in RPGs (though I find hobbits are very hard to Mary-Sueize and so try to play them a lot). When reading fanfiction I try to steer clear of any with original characters, not only do they not hold the same interest for me as canon characters, but they slip very easily into the role of Mary-Sues and are very hard to redeem afterwards.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:32 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: dragoneyes ]

[Tinker]

Squee! That's the story. Thank you dragoneyes. My little barrow is lighted again with such humor.


I htink Mary-Sues are unavoidable. I've way too many stories that are unfinished, because I have to rethink the character to drag her out of Mary-Sue Land. Even so, I freely admit that each and everyone of my RPGing characters starts out as a Mary-Sue ::: hangs head in shame::: BUT! Then I look at the traits and start chipping things away until the character's more rounded.

So I supose they're aren't as completly evil as I had first thought. In fact they're pretty good starting points, as long as you keep an eye one them and chip away every so often.


Did I just Squee?

[Elennar Starfire]

Legolas/Smaug? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Sounds like someone smoked a little too much pipeweed!

That link to the hobbit story isn't working for me! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Anyway, one more question, and this time it's on topic!

so no fics about Pippin's love interest unless her name is Diamond of Long Cleave

As that is as good an example for me to use as any, I shall use it!

Supposing you have an OC in Middle-Earth and Pippin has a romantic interest in her. She has no special powers or great beauty and is not adored by everyone, she does not change events in any significant way, she dies or is otherwise removed from the story, and Pippin presumably returns to the Shire and marries Diamond. Is she a Sue?

Edit: Yes, Tinker, you squeed.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:38 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[Lalaith]

Legolas and Smaug? Good God, that is the most, er, ahem, inventive thing I've ever heard of.
I have never read any slash, but that I would read, just for the sheer bizarreness of it. Oh please, someone find the link and post it.

[Tinker]

Hmmm..let's run your idea through the checklist, shall we Starfire?

Supposing you have an OC in Middle-Earth and Pippin has a romantic interest in her.

Potential Mary-Sue.

She has no special powers or great beauty and is not adored by everyone,

HURRAY!

she does not change events in any significant way,

Again Hurray!

she dies or is otherwise removed from the story,

awwwwwww...

and Pippin presumably returns to the Shire and marries Diamond. Is she a Sue?

Well..that's a yes and no according to the list. Being a female whom one of the Fellowship has in romantic interest in walks that line. So does the dieing. As for being "otherwise removed" that something you need to handle very delicatly, as that is a major Mary-Sue maker.

You'd also have to answer Reader question such as,

"If she doesn't change things in a significant way, why are we reading about her? Why should I care?" A not-quite-Sueish answer is that she helps change Pippin in a small yet significant way (the little things you know,) that help him accept his situation (whatever that may be)so that he can go marry Diamond and live happily hobbity for ever after.

So in answer to your question: your outline describes a potential Sue, which is good, because the best original characters can be made from those. Just watch yourself when you're writing.

I apologize if you were expecting a simple yes/no answer.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:26 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Tinker ]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Legolas and Smaug? With Leggy as tops? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Sounds mighty dangerous, not to mention abrasive. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I saw a funny story where Faramir and Eomer are trapped in a cave by a torrential downpour, at which point Eomer goes off about how it's some fangirl's attempt to get them nude together. It used to be at ff.net but I can't seem to find it. Drat.

The hobbit link isn't working for me either. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Elennar Starfire, it doesn't sound as if your OC is a Sue. Killing her off is a teeny bit 'Sue-ish, but can be easily overlooked if the rest of the story is non-Sue-y. Having things just not work out between her and Pippin would be even less Sue-ish. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a 'Sue that was a hobbit -- or a dwarf. They're usually elves, half-elves or humans. Or something weird, like vampires or "half-unicorns."

Ainaserkewen, how do you like the fic? I just saw that it's been finished by the author -- rather abruptly, IMO, which I was sorry to see. The story you described sounds awful. Most of the 'Sues I've seen have been all sweetness-n-light, but you're right, that one being evil didn't make her less of a 'Sue.

-Lily

[Tinker]

To you having trouble with the Hobbit Link:

When I click on it the page comes up. http:// http:// and then the rest of the address. if that's waht its doing for you than simply delete one of the http:// s. If not..ummmm...fill yer pipe and dream about dragons and elves fer a while. Especially ones attacking Mary-Sues in splendid dragon and elf fashion.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:34 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Tinker ]

[dragoneyes]

Aah yes, sorry about that link, I fixed it so it should work now, very amusing.

Lalaith, I would post the link but it's rather explicit (I only had to scan it to see that) but I could PM it to you if you wished, it's more Legolas and Aragorn and an own character, wonder if it's a Marty-Stu.

Half unicorn? Half unicorn half what? That's just plain odd...

[Lalaith]

Thanks dragoneyes, I actually googled and found it.
It was quite well written but there wasn't that much Smaug, it was a bit less weird (ie less funny) than I'd hoped...

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I've never actually seen a fic with a "half-unicorn" in it -- it was something I saw on a "Middle Earth Mary-Sue Litmus Test." I would assume it's half-human or half-elf. Either that or it's just half of a unicorn. Perhaps the left half? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Has anyone ever seen a hobbit Sue? Maybe I haven't because I don't read many hobbit-centric stories.

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

Glori-Sue, daughter of Gloin, was a young dwarf maid barely in her forties. Her gossamer hair and beard were a beautiful strawberry-blonde, and were braided together with threads of mithril. Her startlingly vivid eyes, one green and the other black, seemed to pierce the soul, and her beautiful baritone voice could stun the very birds from the sky. Of course, she taught her brother Gimli everything he knew about axe-fighting, for she had been trained in the secret arts of the Dwarf-ninjas from the age of two...

Cheers!
-Lily

[Elennar Starfire]

I apologize if you were expecting a simple yes/no answer.

No, I wasn't. yes/no answers aren't much help. Thank you! (yes/no...that looks like a slash...heheheheheh...this could be interesting... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img])

I don't think a half-unicorn would be possible, unless it was half-horse or half-zebra or something like that. It would be just too weird otherwise!

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

Glori-Sue, daughter of Gloin, was a young dwarf maid barely in her forties. Her gossamer hair and beard were a beautiful strawberry-blonde, and were braided together with threads of mithril. Her startlingly vivid eyes, one green and the other black, seemed to pierce the soul, and her beautiful baritone voice could stun the very birds from the sky. Of course, she taught her brother Gimli everything he knew about axe-fighting, for she had been trained in the secret arts of the Dwarf-ninjas from the age of two...

Teeheehee! Wonderful thought! This could be quite amusing! An Uruk-sue, hahahaha! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Kransha]

Ah, Mary-Sues, the scourge of literature. If you've ever read a published book with a Mary-Sue in it (yes, there are some) then it makes you hate them all the more.

I actually have a major problem avoiding Mary-Sueism in my writings, not in terms of character pefection, but in terms of canon. My most prosperous story so far doesn't involve any characters from LotR, since it takes place after, but does have some of their descendants. I always have to do extra research to make sure that I don't defy the laws of Tolkein when creating characters.

[Ainaserkewen]

I can weather slash much more than Mary-Sues these days. My favourite fanfic of all time (LOTR) is slashy, but it's so cleverly written that it can be over looked. It's kinda graphic, so if you want to know where to find it, ask me, I don't want to get in trouble for posting. It's a Frodo/Legolas thing, quite amusing. You know what I can't stand though is Sam/Frodo. It just agrivates me. Maybe because after the trip, Sam goes and has like 13 kids.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Has anyone ever seen a hobbit Sue?

I've been accused of writing one. I'm trying to improve my skills so the writing is so good that no one will really care though. ^^;;; I'm just really attatched to her; and sorry, I've broken the "Pippin Rule" that's been stated above. *hides from bricks being hurled in her general direction*

ssssss...

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Finwe]

(very late reaction, but...)


I just read the story that Ophelia posted! It reinforces the fact that I should never eat or drink anything while reading posts on the Barrow-Downs! I nearly fell off my chair laughing! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Morgul Queen]

My favourite FanFiction story is also a little bit slashy, namely AC's 'The Folly of Starlight'. Granted, some bits are rather explicit, but AC has put a lot of thought and effort into it.

One of the major plot lines in FOS is an exploration of the idea that Lagolas and Thranduil may have had a Vanyar ancestor. The main pairing is Elrond/Legolas, but also has several mentions of Gil-Galad/Elrond.

I have posted about this fic before and if you really want the link, PM me.......or just take a little trip to LoM.

Something I have discovered in FanFiction is that the people who write slash have to work a whole lot harder to make their writing fit with canon....if done right this usually results in an original and well thought out plot.

Then, of course, you get the ridiculous, like the the aformentioned Legolas/Smaug, or a Balrog/Witch-King, or even a Aragorn/Brego (the horse).

Morgul, currently trying to destroy the A/L pairing for ever. Why won't it dieeeeeeeeee?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I found this thread some time ago and I've finally managed to get through the rather painful "Laura-Sue" fiction. Thanks for linking that, Ophelia!. I must say it heartens me in some ways, as I'm pretty sure I simply cannot write that badly, or if I did, I would never post it on the internet for all to see. I do, however, have a desire to write fanfiction sometimes and have written a bit in the distant past. Lord of the Rings has been different, though, and I cannot seem to even begin to picture a fictional effort on my own part to hold up to the immense force of Tolkien's creation. I'm pretty sure I do not wish to create a new and self-inhabited character (i.e. "Mary Sue"), but neither can I seem to fathom a story that is both canon and true to the intricate world that Tolkien created. So, I guess my question for Tolkien fanfiction writers is: where and how do you get your ideas? I don't have that much time for reading, and so I don't really read much fanfiction that has multiple chapters (or if I did, I could not finish it due to time constraints).

As for slash fiction, I think my brain is too deeply enmeshed in the Tolkien-centered view to allow it in my ME worldview; all the same, I am much amused by the VSD's and dragoneyes' linked fiction above of the hobbits reading slash on a laptop! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Humor allows for much anachronism. That said, I have written a grand total of ONE LOTR fanfiction, and that one in 45 minutes for a contest for the Eowyn Challenge site. It was too silly for words (although I managed to find some with which to compose it) and also completely off the beam, storywise.

I suppose I'm not too worried about whether I would write a Mary Sue, but more with whether my story would reflect the spirit of Tolkien's world adequately to be worth writing...at least that is my dream. No luck on writing it yet! Anyone else in my boat?

Cheers!
Lyta

[Morgul Queen]

I guess the main idea for me is to take the most outragous thing that I can and make it plausible. My latest Nuzgul is one of Celebrimbor being half Teleri. How to make it work?

Silver or gold hair is uncommon among the Noldor and those who do have such unusual tresses normally have some mention of it in their names (Glorfindel, Galadriel etc) so I imagine that the particle 'Celeb' would be rather unusual in Noldorin names. So now I ave a silver haired Celebrimbor and have to make it believable, hence Curufin's wife being a Teleri!

See, it kinda goes...you've just got to try and make it work in the laws of Tolkien. I can't find a plausible way of making my Treebeard/Shelob Nuzgul work however...

Try lots of different ways to get inspiration, music is a good inspiration, especially the pre-90's music, personally I use Sinead O'Connor, Led Zepplinn, and Pink Floyd, but whatever you go for goes.

[kittiegirl]

See, my story, I'm trying to make it as realistic and charahterly(is that a word?)accurate as possible.
I'm re-writting a bit of it too, so that'll be better.

But, yeah, I know what a Mary-Sue is now.

[Finwe]

Aragorn and Brego?!?!?! These people are sick!!!! That person needs to be carted away to a mental asylum (along with the lunatic(s) who wrote the Legolas/Smaug fic!).

[Elennar Starfire]

I have rethought that potential story I posted earlier, made it (hopefully) as non-Sue as possible, without changing it entirely.

As for being "otherwise removed" that something you need to handle very delicatly, as that is a major Mary-Sue maker

I think I have the solution to that: It was all her dream, she wakes up.

You'd also have to answer Reader question such as,
"If she doesn't change things in a significant way, why are we reading about her? Why should I care?"

It's not a story about how she changes events, but about how events change her.

Also, she will not like (not that way, anyhow) whichever canon character I decide has an interest in her.

I think it will be interesting to see how this all turns out...

Maybe we should write our own Sue stories. I dare anyone to write a dwarf-Sue. Or an Uruk-sue.

I started that Uruk-Sue... I only have about the first two sentences, but it's a start! I had such an excellent description of her orcish beauty (or what an orc might consider beautiful [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]) but I didn't write it down when I thought it up and now I've forgotten it. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Well, I'm finally attempting to write something. It is truly awful, but I am having fun writing it! That's the most important part. No Mary Sue--Frodo, Sam and Gollum are the only characters besides random orcs and a bunch of props. (I suppose one might say that Frodo is close to being my potential Mary-Sue (Frodo-Sue?) of sorts, since I identify with him. Does that count?) No romance of any sort, though, as it is set in the decidedly un-romantic setting of the Stairs and Tower of Cirith Ungol. It is a study in absurdity, really--almost a comedy but it isn't funny enough.

And, Morgul Queen, what's a Nuzgul? I commend you for going as far as postulating the parentage and characteristics of Celebrimbor in this way. Of course, there are rogue genes in the Noldor themselves, aren't there? I always wondered if Nerdanel and her descendants were the only red-headed Elves (it could be a recessive trait even through Curufin, couldn't it?) I suppose you could prove almost anything if it doesn't conflict utterly. Also, I think they used the prefix Celeb- for any silver part of them, i.e., Celebrindal "Silver foot" I think. The only problem with Elves is the amazing volumes of HoME I haven't read! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I think I'll wait until I'm a little better at it to try the "Uruk-Sue," although that is an amusing thought! "The Littlest Orc in Moria," a tale by Mary Sue Ugluk! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Best of luck with your Uruk-Sue Elennar! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:54 AM January 28, 2004: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Ainaserkewen]

I guess the main idea for me is to take the most outragous thing that I can and make it plausible.

That's what I've been doing alot lately. Only instead of taking random facts and welding them together...I've been experimenting with crossover fics. They're hard, but if you take LOTR and two other stories you are familiar with and make them believably cross over, it's so much fun. I'll post my story when it's finished, or when LOTR gets melded in. It's more Silmarillion actually.

I read a Legolas/Smaug fic and it's real huey. It was so funny I cried. If anyone really likes Lotr slash,library of moria hosts every combination you can think of. Really, it's almost too weird.

[Morgul Queen]

A Nuzgul is a LotR plotbunnie. they were created by a misspelling like Long Table Elrond, OFUM's resident immortal table created by a missing comma, the Mini-Balrogs, the Wringwraiths and so on and so forth.

Hey, um...please don't write crossovers. As and agent I'll have to alert the detanglers...and they hate detangling! They have one of the highest insanity rates at the PPC.

Trolls, oh the possibilities! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] When we were all writing BadFic for OFUM we had some truly horrendus ones. The Aragorn/Brego, a Elrond-gets-turned-into-a-girl one. If you want to know haw to write truly horrible fic, go to www.misssandman.com. Alternativly, go to FanFiction.net.

Meir Brin (also on FF.net) has an outragously funny story called 'Master Suelove' How I came to love the 'Sue. *snort*

[Sapphire_Flame]

So what's a plotbunnie? *looks horribly confused* I should know, I really should, but school has officially melted my brain...

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

EDIT: typo...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:19 AM January 29, 2004: Message edited by: Sapphire_Flame ]

[Finwe]

Morgul Queen and Lyta, Celebrimbor didn't necessarily have to have Telerin heritage. Miriel Serindë, his great-grandmother, had silver hair, so he could have inherited it from her. Besides, how do we know that he had silver hair? It could just be a name. Idril was nicknamed Celebrindal because when she danced, her feet flashed like silver, they definitely weren't silver-colored! And we know for a fact that she had golden hair. The name "Celebrimbor" could just be a name, and not have some ulterior meaning.

[dragoneyes]

I do believe a plotbunnie is an idea that hops into your head and you just have to write it (or something of that nature).

I am glad that (apart from in the library of Moria) there are hardly any own character slashes, imagine what havoc could be wrought with a mary-sue (or marty-stu) slash. *shudder* Doesn't bear (or is it bare?) thinking about.

The best fics to write are the short ones, I wrote ones about what ringwraiths think and what their horses think, they were nice and short and don't swerve from canon too much if at all (heck, how do you know what they're thinking) but then again, I can write the strangest things, I don't like the cliched stories.

[Lyta_Underhill]

The name "Celebrimbor" could just be a name, and not have some ulterior meaning.

I think it means "silver hand" so I am supposing his hands flash like silver, or it is a statement about his amazing prowess in craftsmanship. I suppose we've just gotten spoiled by Celeborn having silver in his name and on his head! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Doesn't Celeborn mean "silver tree" or something like that?) Maybe Celeborn should have had a tree growing out of his head! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, a plotbunnie I do know, although I've always spelled it with a -y and not an -ie. So a Nuzgul is merely the LOTR form of this, eh? I do indeed remember from the few (very amusing!) chapters of the OFUM fiction I managed to read about "mini-balrogs"!

Meir Brin (also on FF.net) has an outragously funny story called 'Master Suelove' How I came to love the 'Sue. *snort*

Verrrry amusing idea! I wonder if it is structured like "Dr. Strangelove" or not? (haven't looked for it yet) As I recall, Dr. Strangelove was adapted from a book that was completely serious, real Cold War scare stuff, and yet, they managed to make a biting comedy/satire out of it! Ah, but I have my own plotbunnie/Nuzgul to work out, so...

I take my leave. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers!
Lyta

[Arcuwen]

I do, however, have a desire to write fanfiction sometimes and have written a bit in the distant past. Lord of the Rings has been different, though, and I cannot seem to even begin to picture a fictional effort on my own part to hold up to the immense force of Tolkien's creation.

I have had the same problem. I have written a couple fanfics in my day, but as I reread them now and compare it to the works of Tolkien themselves they have all experienced a trip to the paper shredder. I feel as if I butcher the original story in my attempt to add something to it or fabricate a spinoff of some sort. So my creativity has been put to a better use as I have created my own fantasy story which will be on my website if/when I ever get that up and running... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Now that I think of my failed attempts at ME fanfiction, I see that my main character fits almost every definition of a MS. Eeek! Oh well, I was young and stupid [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] . One last thought before someone hits me with a brick for rambling: I have read about characters that are disliked by everyone and have an almost "punk" attitude nearly as much as I have come across 'Sues. Is that the new Sue? Or am I just a complete idiot? Oh, wait, don't answer that last question...

[Elennar Starfire]

I am writing an original fiction as well, and I want to be sure my main character is not too Sue-ish, even though she can't be a Sue because it's not fanfiction. Anyway, I have been going through the Sue checklist...

-the hero is a girl
Yes, this is true.
-she has an exotic name
Again true, but her name is somewhat important to the plot. I have a reason for her to have an exotic name.
-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
Maybe so, but only if there aren't too many more things checked off on this list. Again, I have a reason.
-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her
Who is my favorite character...Nope, that's not going to happen!
-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Um, no. She's got a rather bad attitude. I find her quite bratty.
-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
As I just said, she's bratty. She's also a bit of a coward.
-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, none of those.
-everything in the story is centred around her
Well, she is the main character!
-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
They can't, as they come from my head. They behave however I want them to.
-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
She can sing when she wants to, but doesn't think she can, therefore doesn't very often.
Do not make her royalty of any type.
I haven't decided yet if she's royalty, but there's a good chance of it.
Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Nope, she's not dying!
Tortured pasts are forbidden.
No tortured past.
As are mystery pasts.
Oh dear! Not good! She doesn't know anything about her past...but she doesn't know she doesn't know.

So, that's 3 definate yesses, 6 definate nos, 3 maybes, and 2 non-applicable to original fiction. I guess that makes her not too Sue-ish. Whew!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:25 PM January 31, 2004: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Good idea, Elennar! The checklist! I had a plotbunnie that hit with a vengeance (and the bad thing is that it is too complicated to write quickly!) and it derailed my comic fiction and now threatens to derail much more. So, here goes with the Sue checklist, just to make sure there's not a danger of putridity in the works...but I seriously doubt it, as the only original characters are touchstones and not the main focus:

-the hero is a girl
No, hero is Pippin

-she has an exotic name
his name is Pippin (Mr. Peregrin Took!)

-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
sea green eyes (oh, is that unusual-I don't think Tolkien specified, so I'll go with the Billy model!); hair is "almost golden"

-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her

Well, my favorite characters are Frodo and Pippin, so no, Frodo does not fall for Pippin or vice versa

-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself
Well, yes, I'd love to be like Pippin in some ways!

-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
We all know what Pippin's like!

-she often has immense supernatural abilities
Nope, just a sword of Westernesse and some really cool armor from Gondor! Oh, and he talks to trees...

-everything in the story is centred around her
not exactly, but he is the focus

-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
Oh, I hope not!

-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)
Sing, Pippin, Sing!!!!

Do not make her royalty of any type.
Not royalty, but will someday be Thain of the Shire and a Counselor of the North Kingdom!

Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.
Not set that far ahead in time!

Tortured pasts are forbidden.
Pippin? Tortured past? Tee hee!

As are mystery pasts.

No more mystery than the parts Tolkien left out for us latecomers to fill in!

Not a Sue.
I suppose I can continue writing now!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Morgul Queen]

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.

I think there are two meanings to Celebrimbor's name, I read in an essay somewhere (I think it may have been one of AC's or Emma's) that the other one is Silver-Counsellor. But that's just me taking a Nuzgul and running with it.


[EDIT: Estelyn asked me to delete this part of the post, I don't have a homepage, but if you want to read it PM me. Oh, and Esty? Thanks for being nice, you won't believe some of the things that people say to us Assassins!]

[symestreem]

Here is my challenge to all of you. It's quite simple:

Write a fan-fiction story containing a Mary-Sue. Give her oodles of Sueish traits! Pile them on like chocolate! The catch: make her realistic. Or if you prefer, make a Gary-Lou (but still realistic). You don't have to share them, although if you feel like it please do. I suppose I could make a collection site or something. Well, good luck.