Tol-in-Gaurhoth LVII - Chess Game for Middle Earth: Game Thread

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I think Hansy was talking about the Werewolf team dreaming of the Queen - then somehow blackmailing her to do their bidding; lest they lead her to her death.

That sort of makes sense, but then wouldn't the Black Queen just start killing the Wolves instead. And how could they blackmail the Black Queen? Say the Black Rook is hunting xem? Interesting point though, but since the Black Queen is on xyr there is no reason to play nice with the Wolves. The Wolves could try to get the Black Queen lynched though.

Edit: x-posted with Rikea and fix typo of gender neutral.

[Rikae]

I believe it is -

he, she, xe
his, her, xyr
him, her, xem

But I didn't double check, so I may be wrong.

EDIT - handy mnemonic device - just think of the singular 'they'. They/xe, their/xyr, them/xem.

[Lariren Shadow]

Thanks, I'll change it. Really I actually sat here trying to remember what it was before making it up.

[Hansy]

The wolves have their nightkill too. it's a risky move, but the reward would be huge: controlling two kills a night, making sure their players aren't going to be incriminated. Or even better, making the Black Queen look bad, so that the innocents focus their attention on her.

@Nogrod: I don't plan to do such thing if I ever get a cobbler role, don't worry. just brainstorming here.

@Eonwe: Them = she = black queen.

...don't ask how my use of pronouns got like that.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

You have no idea how much I laughed at that. And silly Mira(I like that one best) we don't lynch Fea till Day 3. Or at least that's how its been playing out...

I thought we lynch her fresh on Monday. That's toMorrow.

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

As for my two cents on the roles: I wish I knew what the White Queen was. Maybe xim(though I really want to say "she") is immune to Werekills. That would make sense, I guess.

Or maybe xe gets a Night kill that only dies if they're evil, or maybe xe's a hunter-seer combo, or maybe xe's vote also counts at the end of the Day if the votee is evil, or- the possibilities are endless....

edit: internet blip. x-ed since #81

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I thought we lynch her fresh on Monday. That's toMorrow.

Oh, a Day ahead of schedule now.

Or maybe xe gets a Night kill that only dies if they're evil, or maybe xe's a hunter-seer combo, or maybe xe's vote also counts at the end of the Day if the votee is evil, or- the possibilities are endless....

Oh those are interesting options. I had a thought that maybe xe gets to try to turn someone good if they are evil then realized that was a really silly thought and would never work. Because then it would be easy to find the other two Wolves. Well there goes that brilliant idea...which was more like a horrible one.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

Oh those are interesting options. I had a thought that maybe xe gets to try to turn someone good if they are evil then realized that was a really silly thought and would never work. Because then it would be easy to find the other two Wolves. Well there goes that brilliant idea...which was more like a horrible one.

No... that's DW (Dueling Wizards).

But in that there are two that can do that, so it balances out.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

They just have gifts because they can also be attacked at Night (by the Black Queen - and hopefully also by the White Queen).

Yes, I too have been wondering what in the world the White Queen does. Attacking the Werewolves certainly, but in what way? I suppose we'll have to wait and see. If something odd happens, we can begin making decent guesses.

And about the business of the White Gifteds being able to PM if the Bishop spots them... that sort of puts Pawns in a tricky situation. What I mean is, it would obviously be great if the Bishop, Knight, and Rook were able to speak with each other, therefore a Pawn might think it is in the best interest of the game to do everything possible to avoid a dream (so it isn't wasted on them).

But at the same time, Gifteds can prove themselves to some extent, while a Pawn cannot. Late in the game, would you rather have a Seer-dreamed Knight, or a Seer-dreamed Pawn plus a Knight reveal with good supporting evidence? Either way you get a known non-Beast, but the second way you gain the advantage of knowing two people not to vote for.

So really, dreaming of a Pawn is certainly not a great loss from an odds perspective. Though the Bishop being able to tell the Rook exactly who not to hunt and the Knight precisely who to protect does seem to be rather powerful.

So what to do about it? Usually when I am not evil I desperately want to be dreamed of so that I can be trusted, and so that the Wolves will be forced to kill me (I like to exit before the end-game, I hate the pressure of the last couple days, I'd rather be dead at that point). But under this set up a Pawn is tempted to be less selfish and try to avoid the Bishop dream so that it can be used on a better target (either Black piece or White Gifted).

But if someone is obviously trying to avoid being dreamed of (or asks not to be dreamed of)- that looks ridiculously suspicious, and might lead to lynching! And an innocent who knowingly places himself at the front of the lynch line is certainly not doing his part to lynch Werecreatures.

So what we're left with is a scenario in which there is no correct answer for behavior. Not that there ever is just one answer. It's just that this time both choices are so obviously flawed.

[Isabellkya]

I find you not liking the pressure of the end game (as a non evil) ... an odd one phantom.
There fore, I think it would be fun to see you sweat it out once. xD

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?
We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Kya

There fore, I think it would be fun to see you sweat it out once.

I did have to do that once. In Fea's blind luck game. It was me, SPM, and Mith left on the final day. And while it was amazing, memorable, fun to read, and we ended up winning, it is not something I look forward to doing again. I swear- if it looks like things are headed that way, I will start acting as suspiciously as possible just so I don't have to go through that nail-biting again.

Originally Posted by Kya

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?

I agree that at this point it doesn't get us anywhere. But if something unexplained happens at any point, then I would say that it should be discussed, for if we can perhaps get a bead on the way the role works, we can factor it into our plans for impacting the village.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?

Not much, but it's as a good a thing as any to talk about on Day 1.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

We won't know (I assume) until the game is over. So, what kind of help is that going to lend us; when dealing with the evilies that we do know about?

It's probably better not to say even if you do work it out, as then it will give the baddies (or evilies as you call them) more of a chance to find xer (or is the correct term xem?)

edit: x-ed wid tp

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Izzy

In reality, what good would it be to in-depthly theorize about what the White Queen may or may not be able to do?

Maybe little to nothing now, but we may be able to get some clues by how night narrations play out. I, for one, would love her to have some sort of ranger-type capacity with this whole "double kill" thing...

But how much purpose is there in explanation? Dwell too much on it and we either look like baddies (except, baddies should only speculate to one another and not in-game) or we give the baddies ideas.

The "focus on the bear, focus on the wolf" thing is a bit of a problem. The more difficult one has much higher rewards; the one that won't pay off as much is easier to manage. So really it's better to keep both in mind and not focus on one to the exclusion of the other. The wolves would love to have us focus on the bear, because we're hunting in the haystack for needles. Less pressure on them. So even though it'd be GREAT to have the bear, let's not focus on her to exclusion. (Not that anyone was going to do that, but still.) I'd rather put all my effort on the wolves; if we catch the bear, well, great.

Also, remember that the bear is JUST as clueless as we are (at the moment); in trying to kill an innocent during this early "better cooperate with the wolves" phase she may end up killing one by accident/on purpose. Whereas the wolves have their own seer.

[Rikae]

What you said about the bear and wolves is sensible enough, Mnemi, but this is something that has been bugging me for a while in werewolf games, and I might as well mention it now -
there is absolutely no point in telling people what they should or should not focus on, especially before they've even started focusing on it.

[the phantom]

Yes, because they just end up focusing on me.

So really... pointless to make suggestions.

[Isabellkya]

It doesn't count if you are jumping up and down, waving your arms about - phantom. xD

[wilwarin538]

Just to let you all know that I am around and have read almost everything that's been said. Don't have as much time now to say much, but I'm happy that the banter is over!

I'll be back in about 6 hours, and I'll post a longish post about my thoughts on everyone, and depending on whether voting has started or not, I will probably vote.

Be prepared for me to bandwagon, there are so many players in this game I'm not familiar with so until we get into Day 2 it will be tough for me to get a read on some of you. Just to warn you ahead of time so that it isn't held against me next Day.

[Eönwë]

Shhhh! No talking to the phantom.

He hasn't been behaving himself, so we have to pretend he's not here.

There's a reason he's in that paper cage.

edit: x-ed with wilwa

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

*throws a wrench in the works and runs away laughing*

I just read that as "*throws a wench in the works...*
I blame Sally for this (see post #4 for more info).

edit: correction and link. No x-posting sadly.

[the phantom]

Good to see you again Wilwa. I remember that it was you who hosted one of the best Werewolf games ever.

Originally Posted by Kya

It doesn't count if you are jumping up and down, waving your arms about

Oh, right.

*tries to hold perfectly still*

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

there is absolutely no point in telling people what they should or should not focus on, especially before they've even started focusing on it.

Originally Posted by the phantom

how likely is it that someone will be strongly suspected of looking like the Black Queen? That piece is on a team of its own. There will be no sort of teamwork to look for. I imagine the WereBear will be indistinguishable from a pawn. So how productive is it to even look for him?

Originally Posted by sally

Although we need to kill the Black Queen post haste.

Maybe I misread the quotes above, but people already have started focusing. My post was supposed to be in response to that.

And to (publicly, at least) inform people of how I was going to try to focus myself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I have to peace out, so here's my early vote:

eenie meenie miny

++Hansy

Because I'm not in nearly a good enough mood to be nice to newbies for the sheer sake of it, and Nog has a way of saying interesting things on Day One.

[Durelin]

I'm afraid I have a party to go to, so I will be posting and running here... I will be around more after toDay, promise. Unless something goes terribly wrong. I'm a realist.

And of course Han shot first - I don't get why the heck it matters. All it proves is that he's quicker to the draw and Greedo isn't that horrible of a shot.

Anyway...there's already a few people I'd like to get rid of just for the sake of being rid of them, but part of my beef with werewolf is when people simply play favorites...so I'm going to go for as random as possible here.

++Sally

Just looking at who has posted, anyway, I picked out her on some sort of gut-reaction thing. The typical excuse. It's like pleading the 5th...my stomach told me to do it!

Really I quite enjoy your presence, my dear, but...

See you all tomorrow...quite sorry, I really will have more time (if y'all will let me...) after this. Today I happen to have basically none.

Edit: Fea, I have a feeling you and I will be getting along better in this game...I came so close to voting one of the newbies for the sake of it...hmm, perhaps that means you are evil this time (though I didn't actuallly think you were at least by the end of that fateful day for me...but I'll shush, no relevance here).

[Eönwë]

Well.... no-one posted anything and then 2 posts come at once. They don't really say much (or help me choose), so I'll just go for a semi-random vote:

++Gwath

Because his 2 posts said nothing at all relevant.

[the phantom]

The vote-

Kath ++Nerwy
Fea ++Hansy
D'lin ++Sally
Steve ++Gwathy

[the phantom]

I'm leaving soon for an evening activity, but I shall be around after that up until the deadline.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

The wolves would love to have us focus on the bear, because we're hunting in the haystack for needles. Less pressure on them. So even though it'd be GREAT to have the bear, let's not focus on her to exclusion. (Not that anyone was going to do that, but still.) I'd rather put all my effort on the wolves; if we catch the bear, well, great.

How do you focus on the Black Queen at the moment? If you have an idea please share... "That person looks like she's bit of a loner?"

If the baddies do not make some quite serious mistakes toDay we can still get one, but basically only with luck. I'm afraid that's all there is to hope for. But surely the more people discuss the more material there is to find a mistake from - or more chances for someone to blunder with a reaction, a tone, a stance or an attitude. So I do share Rikae's stance that Day1's can be productive not only afterwards but already on Day1. I have now some time to go back to the thread and try to see if there is anything that could help...

[Rikae]

Ditto what tp said.

I'm leaning toward voting for Nerwen, Izzy, or Steve. The first for reasons mentioned before, the second for overly safe, insubstantial posting, or the thir for a more complex set of wolvish behaviors I'll attempt to explain on my return, if I'm not too tired.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How do you focus on the Black Queen at the moment?

You don't; that was my point. It was my attempt to respond intellectually to the "We need to get the Black Queen soon!" remark made by sally above. I don't even know how we can get the Black Queen at endgame...

If I'd known it'd create that much fuss, I'd just have quoted her and replied, "How?!?"

[Nogrod]

Okay. Page1 – some thoughts…

The American opening was fun but quite an unrewarding read. Mainly banter and only a few oddballs one could interpret any possible way (a baddie trying to look like posting as innocent, a goodie slipping her/his position; a goodie trying to be helpful, a baddie trying to look like being helpful, a goodie having fun, a baddie gambling etc.).

Something in Mnemo’s way of talking bothers me even if I can’t quite pinpoint it. It's about the picking of the subjects or POVs or something. I need to look at her posting closer as I get there. She’s clearly intelligent but I’m a bit concerned about her loyalties. Anyway I wouldn’t like to lose a bright innocent early on unless we really have some grounds of suspicion. There should be better candidates toDay.

And tp then? Let’s leave him to the baddies to decide. If he keeps living Day after Day we’ll lynch him. He’s good to have around if he’s a goodie so let’s not rush with him.

Sally looks like she always looks. Sadly she does that also when she’s a baddie. So nothing to say on her but the usual uneasiness.

Brinn comes in and posts – nothing of any special interest; a short banter, a few reasonable points about the general mechanics of the game, slight whining that it’s late and her brain doesn’t work… Perfectly innocent sounding and therefore all alarms should be on as it’s Brinn!

Eomer looks cryptic but speaks sense. I see nothing alarming in Nerwen right now either although I might protest about the low input, but then again there's her timezone… But surely she should be more verbiose when she comes in the next time.

Then Kath’s post is just downright terrible. I could consider voting her just on principle for that. I do understand there was little to say at that time of the Day but I’m more concerned with the way she presents her decision (and as Eomer correctly notes – it is not random but it is a choice whatever Kath tries to say). Her reason for voting Nerwen is “because she was the last person to post before me”. After that she goes on to “add some thoughts in even though there's nothing to go on” and makes a comment on everyone who had posted before her – also making points like “definitely evil” (Sally) or “I think innocent, therefore guilty” (Brinn).

Now when one is innocent – and especially when one is forced to vote early as an innocent – one should really feel the burden of one’s choice and think about it carefully (early votes generate bandwagons later on quite easily). But Kath proclaims it’s random and then still feels the need to add all those added thoughts on people which include more suspicion her vote stands with… So she feels a need to underline the randomness of her vote? If she's innocent that's irresponsible behaviour - and if not, then the sooner we lynch her the better.

These are feelings & thoughts based on the first page. I will read forwards...


EDIT: x'd with Mnemo - point taken, sorry to have read you incorrectly. Your answer makes sense.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Exudes a sense of delayed reactions. First part of the day is the time, if indeed there is a time - something to be doubted -, to repeat the fact that there are gifted allies and enemies in the game, and that necessity dictates our discovery of one of those enemies. Frivolous, for sure, but in the least game-related: an acceptably lazy first post. Her first few posts, alas, were empty.

And then she sought something to say. Too eager to show herself.

Not the only one, it's true.

Fialachd don fhogarrach, 's cnaimhean briste don eucorach!

++SATANSALOSER2005

[Mnemosyne]

Bee Tee Dubs, sally leaves her regrets that she shall not be able to post until much later this evening, as she has come across a patch of unexpected!internet loss.

I say we lynch 'er in 'er absence.

[Nogrod]

Page 2

After some continued banter mainly by Fea, tp and Rikae it becomes the Hansy-show with all her wild theories and everyone joining them. The little exceptions seem to be some posts by Rikae & tp who actually try to make some points in the middle of all that. But one page nicely spent to some wild theories and banter. Now that is something the baddies benefit from as I at least am not going to delve into those discussions in great detail a 2.30AM that it is here right now. So Hansy really could be our cobbler and an efficient one as well diverting the discussion… or then one/some of those joining the discussion and furthering it were just having a good time with the distraction that suited their purposes.

Mirandir’s and Gwath’s appearances are just awful. Which means: nothing. If one of you is a baddie and you both get through Day1 with that effort we deserve to lose this game. Really. We might just as well surrender right now.

Page 3

Wilva’s “be prepared for me to bandwagon” is just odd pre-empting of what’s possibly to come.

Eönwë is an enigma to me right now. Somehow he shows a continuous presence and always has something to say – but all is a bit indefinitive or overly general. I could say the same about Lari.

Hey, we need to start suspecting people as we have a lynch ahead and it's better to come to it with some actual ideas than just come and see who will get the random short-stick this time! We need suspicions and reactions to those suspicions – otherwise the choice will be totally blind. Yes, when you suspect someone you put yourself into the firing line as well but that’s what we need to do to get this going.

Anyway. I haven't touched on the votes yet but will do that on the next post.

[Gwathagor]

Hey, I'm reading. Give me a minute or two.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I was going to say that I don't think Sally is evil, but then read that she's having internet problems. That tempers my thoughts.

I stand by my vote and shall now disappear. I just got back from a family dinner that had 28 people in attendance. Talk of taxedermy and politics... I need a good night's sleep after that sort of thing. Or maybe a sturdy drink...

[Hansy]

Just pointing out that I'm a boy.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

s.

The "focus on the bear, focus on the wolf" thing is a bit of a problem. The more difficult one has much higher rewards; the one that won't pay off as much is easier to manage.

I say we ought to focus on neither/both.

[Mirandir]

Hansy really confuses me. Is this his first game? Because he seems to know a lot more about this entire thing than I did my first game (or still do, as a matter of fact).

However, deadline is still over four hours away and I won't be voting for any of the newbies Day 1. Day 2 = fair game. I should be around poking my head in from now until then (trying to remedy my previous "awful" appearance, sorry Nog) if anyone's around and wants to bounce theories around.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Hansy

Just pointing out that I'm a boy.

Coulda fooled me - with those big blue kitty eyes.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I just read that as "*throws a wench in the works...*

Oh, could we do that? Please?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Be prepared for me to bandwagon, there are so many players in this game I'm not familiar with so until we get into Day 2 it will be tough for me to get a read on some of you. Just to warn you ahead of time so that it isn't held against me next Day.

As much as the warning is appreciated, that shouldn't get you off the hook if your vote ends up looking suspicious.