The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Gollum the Great]

Well I like Thorin a lot. He rocks. I like Glaurung a lot. He rocks I like dwarves a lot. They rock. I like dragons a lot. They rock.

*conflict of preferences in my head*

++Glaurung

[Morthoron]

I'm not much a fan of Dwarves, and Thorin and the Dwarves were pretty much dead wood on the journey from the Shire to Erebor.

But talking malevolent dragons with hypnotic sight and limitless sarcasm? And the cowardly way Turin stabbed him in the belly? Pffft! Some hero! No contest here....

++Glaurung

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Two generally not llikeble characters, but Thorin
does show a generaly courteous character (generally!)
and was brave and died well, whereas Glaurung has
zero positive qualities, unlike Smaug
so ++ Thorin Oakenshield

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A thought, if later someone (less lazy then me)
runs an "interesting and not totally unlikeable
bad guy" contest it could be interesting.
For example, in TH the three stone trolls, the old
fat spider, and The Master. And earlier ME Mim redux, Eol
and Son, Feanor?, Ar-Pharazon, Curufin, etc.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is not quite an easy question for me. I do not like these two in particularly that much, neither of them, to be sure rightaway. Though, after some thinking: Thorin has lots of positive (and negative, but interesting) character traits, while Glaurung has of course nice persuading personality and everything... but well, let's face it: he is a worm. He is not a dragon. I would have voted Smaug immediately. I would have voted Glaurung too, I think, had he had wings. But he is a worm! Come on, people. Crawling on the ground? How inappropriate for the Father of Dragons! Such a disgrace! A big, fat dust-eating worm? Down with him!

++Thorin

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Wouldn't this be a bad thing? There is an old (and I do mean oold) saying in my country: "Pride has hurt, starved, and killed than all the other injustices in the world combined." This remark certainly fits Feanor and his sons, their petty pride causing the death of many a good man, elf, and dwarf alike.

No, to me pride has always been the golden mean between conceit and humility. Fëanor and his sons took it maybe a bit too far, but it's that unwillingness to repent which makes them so irresistible (especially Curufin, but I like Maglor, too).
And this is not to say I should like all sorts of pride - I agree there are kinds that are quite dangerous by themselves.

++ Thorin

I find dragons annoying and boring. Reading too much fantasy should maybe be blamed for that, although I admit Tolkien's dragons have a bit more edge than average to them. However, when it's between a dwarf and a dragon, the dwarf will get my vote.

Besides I like Thorin. He's one of those characters who are easy to sympathize with although they are not flawless. Every time I've read The Hobbit I've sided with him when he threw Bilbo out. It was Thorin who had been offended so Bilbo should have no reason to complain, rather be just happy it didn't end up worse.

edit: xed with Tuor (hey Curufin's not a bad guy! ) and Legz (you are such a racist! )

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

++Glaurung
He's a Dragon. No contest.
Dragons are The Coolest Thing Ever.
Shame he was up against Thorin who is also very, very cool and bad-tempered and bearded and things that I usually like....but Dragons win.

My words exactly.

It was a funny thing I heard from the radio last week (okay, I downloaded it from the Fora tv). There was a catholic professor who discussed his faith and he made a remark going something like this (I'm not going to try and find the exact quote as the program lasts something like 1½ hours): the catholic-based literature is interesting as it has all the hues and colours of the world with the contradictions and "unbelievables" and everything's a mess. But with the protestant literature only the baddies are interesting as the goodies are just plain bores.

Even if I am a non-believer, I have been raised in a protestant society and not even Tolkien's catholicism and his spirit as a writer can move my head from voting

++ Glaurung

Goodies are most of the time uninteresting. Thorin less so as there are many traits in him that make him stand out from the traditional goodie-gallery (hurray catholicism? ). Sadly just not enough to be an opponent to Glaurung...


How are you deciding on these match-ups Skip? I would have loved to see both of these in the next round! Fex. Sauron of the LotR is beaten by Thorin with no effort. Okay, Sauron of the Silmarillion is more of a challenge as there he has something like a personality... how did the prof. lose the grasp of such a magnificient character in the LotR?

Maybe I'll open a thread for this last question as it really started bothering me right now as I thought of it...

[the phantom]

Glaurung took over Nargothrond. Thorin's done nothing so astounding.

And because of the important part he played in the tale that may be my favorite of all (The Children of Hurin), I must vote-

++Glaurung

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How are you deciding on these match-ups Skip?

First I chose 84 characters from JRRT's books, more or less arbitrarily. Then I E-mailed a poll and a questionnaire to 764 randomly selected Tolkien-fans, asking for their input on questions regarding the complexity, importance and charm of the characters in the list. Using the information gathered I came up with a list of 32 characters, 8 of which were seeded in order to avoid having the top names come up against each other in the early rounds. More or less like that. More less than more maybe.

Back to the subject. I never cared much for Thorin to be honest. When I first read the Hobbit he really infuriated me with his pompous, greedy and stubborn ways. Now I've warmed up to him in partly, but hey, Glaurung is such a badass. I think his bane, the sneaky and spineless Turin, said it best:

Originally Posted by CoH

His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be

Smaug liked to have crispy dwarves for supper. I bet his mighty ancestor is no different and Thorin is a just a pre-dinner snack for the great wurm:

++Glaurung (the score is 6-5 to the dragon at present)

(Admittedly he did get a mouthful at the Nirnaeth though)

Originally Posted by Legate

Come on, people. Crawling on the ground? How inappropriate for the Father of Dragons! Such a disgrace! A big, fat dust-eating worm? Down with him!

Hey now, what did he need to fly for? Flying is for sissies really. Like starlings, butterflies and sparrows.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skip spence

First I chose 84 characters from JRRT's books, more or less arbitrarily. Then I E-mailed a poll and a questionnaire to 764 randomly selected Tolkien-fans, asking for their input on questions regarding the complexity, importance and charm of the characters in the list. Using the information gathered I came up with a list of 32 characters, 8 of which were seeded in order to avoid having the top names come up against each other in the early rounds.

You're kidding, right? Right?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You're kidding, right? Right?

Like I said, I did it more or less like that. Much more less than more, admittedly.

[skip spence]

Glaurung has defeated Thorin by six votes to five.


Match 7 of Round 1:
Beren is said to be the greatest Man ever to walk Middle Earth and he's got the hottest missus in history too. But is that enough against Boromir, who despite falling for the temptation of the ring is a celebrated member of the fellowship?

Boromir vs. Beren

[mormegil]

++Beren

If I ever have a son I wish to name him Beren. Plus I'm mad at Boromir88

[Gollum the Great]

++Boromir

My fave. from LOTR. No Question.

[Morthoron]

++ Beren

He had a much better haircut. And a dog. Oh, and a pirate's hook. Very cool.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

++Boromir

[Groin Redbeard]

This is an easy choice, but a painful one. I really like Boromir and his noble pride for Gondor, and I am convinced that he would have gone on to do great things if he would have survived protecting the hobbits.

Well, what the heck, I started out thinking of voting for Beren, but I'm really not that attracted to him as I am Boromir. Although they are both noble men, I would have to vote for...

++Boromir

[Aganzir]

++ BOROMIR

Love love love!
Beren is boring. Great lovestories are boring. Heroes are boring.

Boromir is one of the characters who are not ultimately perfect. He didn't believe Gandalf and others right away when they claimed the Ring could not be used for anything good but questioned their judgement, which was actually quite a sensible thing to do - why should you believe something a random wizard says when you don't see any sense in it? A bit like Greenie and phantom in WW.

Boromir is sweet. He's proud. He's funny. He's human. He's grumpy. He's honest - he has the guts to admit he has been wrong, which is a quality too few possess.

The bad thing with having a certain most favouritest character ever is, I've talked about his superiority so much that I forget to mention about half the reasons why I like him as to me they are so self-evident nowadays.

[Lalwendë]

Both quite complex men, it's difficult to say who is more interesting, but with the insights to Boromir's mind and his turmoil that Tolkien gives us, he wins it by a whisker I'd say. I love his chunnerings all the way down the Anduin as he fights to allow himself to be led by Aragorn. His death scene is ace (and who hasn't tried to draw a picture of it, eh? ). And he wasn't led astray by some strumpet in the woods, either....just by an um...magic ring.....

++Boromir

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

His death scene is ace (and who hasn't tried to draw a picture of it, eh? )

Me.

At least I think I haven't.

It's a scene I'm cherishing only inside my mind till the day comes that I am a terrific artist.

Let's see if I shall ever draw it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Me.

At least I think I haven't.

Really? I thought everyone had had a go at that scene? I bet you've done a doodle of the White Tree though, eh?

One day I'll find my sketch of Boromir stuck full of arrows and being cradled by Aragorn and scan it and post it. I was only about 13 when I drew it though so it has what an Art critic might charitably term 'naive charm'

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Really? I thought everyone had had a go at that scene? I bet you've done a doodle of the White Tree though, eh?

Nope, and that's for certain. Drawing trees is not for me.

I used to draw a lot Tolkien things when I had just read Lotr (ie when I was 11-13). After that the Tolkien-related stuff I drew was mostly just about our RPG.

I'm planning to start drawing/painting Middle-earth pictures again, though. It's been way too long.

[Lalwendë]

Actually, wasn't there a thread on this topic, about things people have drawn from Tolkien's work? I seem to remember SpM posted up some of his childhood drawings? I might have to find that one, it was great....

[Nogrod]

A hard choice indeed.

But to go against all odds I'm voting

++ Boromir

for purely personal reasons which are not that Sean Bean is "soo charismatic in the movie" or that Beren is the less known of them.

To me Boromir has a special place in my mind that goes to my history of reading in general. I mean, first when I read the LotR like 10 years old or something I just thought: "Yeah, a great hero but so bad". But slowly I started thinking that there was something in that verdict that was not right. That even if the narrator of the story was painting him as a person who was weak (had not the guts to deny the temptations of the evil promises for glory) and was lured by the ring into madness because of his pride, I was starting to look at it from a different angle.

So the narrator was not right! Looking at his history and motivations showed he was the most sensible person around when the fellowship broke. All those omens and fatalisms - and the thought of risking everything with a the weakest card was the madness, not Boromir.

He was right then... only that the author had decided to make the world where he lived different in a way that because of Tolkien's ideals the impossible became possible... But that really opened my eyes with literature. The authors pull the strings in more ways we readers would like to concentrate on.

And therefore my vote for Boromir, the one who's destiny got me thinking about the status of the author when I was a teenager.

[Nerwen]

++Beren

Because I happen to like him better... though I'm quite pleased to see that interesting character Boromir has so many votes. The poor man gets an awfully bad press in some quarters.

[skip spence]

I'm with Nogrod here, Boromir was right from his perspective to question the Wizards and Elves when they told him to keep faith in a fool's hope rather then to trust their own strenght.

Beren was selfish and irresponsible for dragging Felagund and some of his best men to their gruesome death in Sauron's dungeons, and for taking Luthien with him to Angband, from where she wasn't likely to ever return. If you gonna do something stupid like going after a Silmaril to show your future father-in-law you're a big man, then do it yourself, without risking innocent peoples' lives. Besides, I'm more of a cat person.

++Boromir

[mormegil]

Insanity I tell you! Somebody as wretched and as obring as Boromir is going to beat somebody as noble and brave as Beren. Boromir is a coward, that's right, he picks on hobbits when nobody is around and whines about how poor Gondor cannot stand up to the might of Mordor...ohhhhh poor us he says we cannot do what's right we need to ring...help us we are weak...boo-hoo.

Beren never once complained he was awesome.

[Thinlómien]

++Boromir

Beren's too "perfect" and personality-lacking, and like skip has nicely elaborated, even stupid. (Besides he copies Maedhros's style by getting his hand cut off... Grr... )

Boromir, on the other hand, is one of my favourites. I love his faults. It's so refreshing to have one not-so-perfect hero in the Fellowship. Agan has already nominated most of his good qualities, so I won't babble about that, but I will just add that his death is one of the most beautiful in Tolkien's work.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It's been already told here, most of the things which were said about Boromir I can second. The "cool" things about Beren were his change into a wolf (but that was a disguise and a device of Lúthien, in a way) and the Ring of Barahir. I don't want to sound nasty now, don't take me wrong, but the best word for me to describe his role in the story, he was a loser. Okay, maybe when reading HoME, the thing about slaying the Orcs who took the ring... and also, he talking to Gorlim... but hey, that's rather about Gorlim, Beren's father, and others than about Beren himself... hm... All in all,

++Boromir

To add to what's been told here: He is interesting; and in a certain way, he almost (and now take it with big reservations, okay?) reaches the level of Saruman. Okay, really, with big reservations: but by considering all the various character traits in him, he is kind of "on the road to the same sector", so to say.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Insanity I tell you! Somebody as wretched and as obring as Boromir is going to beat somebody as noble and brave as Beren. Boromir is a coward, that's right, he picks on hobbits when nobody is around and whines about how poor Gondor cannot stand up to the might of Mordor...ohhhhh poor us he says we cannot do what's right we need to ring...help us we are weak...boo-hoo.

Beren never once complained he was awesome.

That's the problem with the popular vote, ain't it? There are too many morons with ignorant and daft opinions differing from yours, yet their vote carries the same weight as yours, although you clearly are right.

Boromir wins by 9 votes to 3.

Match 8 of round 1:

Many fans will be saddened to see two heavyweights go at it so early in the competition, but as it is only one of these memorable characters will advance to the latter stages of the cup. This promises to be a tightly fought thriller:

Saruman vs. Gollum

[Morthoron]

++Gollum

Hands down, if for only two of the funniest sequences in the book: 'I wasn't sneaking!' and 'What's taters, precious?'.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Saruman

Who is to question? He's just wonderful. He is Curumo, the Head of the Order, he is Saruman the White, the Wise, he is Curunír, the Loremaster of the Rings, the Master of the Voice, he is Saruman of Many Colours, the Betrayer, the Bringer of the New Order, he is The White Hand, the one who leads the Uruk-Hai, the Lord of Isengard; and last but not least, he is Sharkey, the exile, who lost everything but his pitiful servant, he is the Destroyer of the Shire, and the guy with a fabulous death scene! All hail to Saruman!!!

[Lalwendë]

++Skip

I hate Skip, pitting Saruman Vs Gollum. How could he be so cruel?!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It's tempting to follow Lalwende's vote (but for Skip's
picking Glaurung instead of the noble Smaug ), however,
we must choose + + Gollum, who only wants to
help and get back his own from hobbits, who not only
steal the Precious but spoil nice rabbits! Granted, there
was that Deagol affair...but that was sooo long ago
and it was poor Smeagol's birthday.....

[Gollum the Great]

Legate has stated every reason I can think of for my vote.

++The White Hand

Though I do like Gollum a lot. For obvious reasons.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Now that's a word, Gollum! Indeed! Now really - who can vote for Gollum anymore, when even Gollum does not vote Gollum?

[mormegil]

A write-in candidate if I may as I care not for either of these candidates

++Beren

although you clearly are right

Exactly, I'm glad somebody finally recognizes that my opinion is always right. Skip, I've got a new plan, my vote carries the weight of 10 other votes, that should help bring some sanity back into these precedings.

[Thinlómien]

++Saruman

No mistake, I like them both, (and in a way, I like neither of them)...

But if you asked me which one is more charming, or with which one I'd rather have a cup of tea & talk some deep pihilosophical stuff, the answer is obvious. Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post... )

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, I have to admit that Saruman's charisma and voice are pretty cool... (I seldom use that word but on this thread I say it in about every post... )

A fan-girl of the deepest rank

[skip spence]

As for me, I like the idea of both characters equally yet the choice is easy. Whereas Saruman is made out to be a master of wizardry and rethorics his actual appearances show little of it and that don't impress me much, as Shania Twain so eloquently put it.

Gollum on the other hand is all that he's made out to be, and then some.

++Gollum