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08-29-2006, 10:08 AM | #81 | ||||||
Raffish Rapscallion
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On Cloud Castles...
First off, I very much like your 'cloud castle' analogy, davem, because it was imaginative.
Second off, I want to make a few comments on it. Going on the assumption that by 'castles' you mean Christianity & by 'cloud' you mean LotR, which is correct unless I am sadly mistaken: Quote:
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Alright now *raise your hand if you've spent hours pouring over the text trying to pick out meaning & parallels, twisting everything in sight to make it 'serve your own purposes.'* Are there those that might do that? Are there those Christians that you remarked about that try too hard to find things in the book 'just to get us all back in church?' Probably so. That's unfortunate, but like you said that will happen in many different circles (WWII, atom bomb, etc.). Discussing possible Christian themes is not equal to the charges you levied in that statement, davem. However as long as the discussion here doesn't venture off into ridiculous twisting or using the thread to evangelize I don't see what the worry is. Christianity was not the theme of the books, but it is at least arguable that it can be found (without too much trouble) in the books. And discussing things you've found (or think you've found) in the books is not in place of enjoying them it is a part of enjoying them. Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 08-29-2006 at 10:12 AM. |
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08-29-2006, 11:46 AM | #82 | |
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The point is Christian readers of LotR keep coming back to the 'Christian' themes of LotR, & I think that behind that there is a desire to claim Tolkien & LotR as 'one of us', that there are things in the Legendarium which have a special significance to them alone, & that therefore an extra dimension is added to the work which is only accessible to them. My point is that this is not (objectively) true. Each reader finds in the book something which resonates with them. More importantly there are readers (Christians & others) who put forward their claims as 'facts' - they are not saying 'This character reminds me of Jesus' but 'This character is a Christ figure'. If you read through my posts you will see I've repeatedly stated I have no problem with the individual reader's right to 'apply' characters & events in any way they wish. Where I do have a problem is when they state these 'applications' as facts about the story. As I said, this is to allegorise, to place the story in service of something else & thereby to denigrate it to an echo of something else. It is an argument about the nature of Art itself. I can't see how applying Biblical figures & stories will deepen one's understanding of the story qua story, or of the individual's faith. What it will do, it seems to me, is blur the lines between the two & reduce both. But that's just me. If you read LotR & think of Aragorn as a Christ figure you will risk missing the aspects of Aragorn's character which do not correspond to Christ. Same applies to Frodo or Gandalf or Elrond. They are not Christ figures (which Tolkien clearly stated). Morgoth's story (as Squatter mentioned earlier) may be close to the Biblical story of Satan, but Sauron's is not, hence the struggle between Aragorn & Sauron is not applicable to the struggle between Christ & Satan. The danger is that a reader who approaches the story as a 'Christian' story starts to 'fill in the gaps' & makes the story something it is not, makes it mean something it does not mean. Why is that a 'danger'? Because we then get the wholly erronious idea that LotR is a Christian allegory simply accepted without question by some readers. To me this is as unnacceptable as the idea that it is a racist work, or an allegory of WWII. LotR is what it is. Your personal interpretation of it is something else. The two things are, & must be, different. I'm tired of various groups out there claiming the book & its author for their own. Whether Christians, pagans, racists, or accademic 'experts'. Finally, I've seen no evidence for this 'Christian' interpretation of LotR that stands up at all. Plus, I enjoy the debate (it will be noticed by some posters on this thread that the rep I have handed out in this debate has all been to those who have opposed me with good arguments...) |
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08-29-2006, 01:13 PM | #83 | ||||
Raffish Rapscallion
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But you're quite right that "every reader finds something which resonates with them." Therefore, a Christian reader might very well 'find' something that someone else would not. That doesn't mean that he's making it up or stretching for it, but neither does it mean that Tolkien specifically intended the connection or parallel or whatever you wish to call it. Of course some people will put their opinion of what Tolkien intended forward as fact - but I don't think that 'Downers have had a whole lot of trouble with that on this particular topic (fortunately). Quote:
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But it's still fun to discuss similarities of other characters to things in the Bible, just like it'd be fun for me to discuss similarities of the characters to any other thing I am familiar with. Quote:
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08-29-2006, 02:23 PM | #84 |
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Of course, another danger in taking such a single minded approach to interpretation is that one misses or misinterprets events in the story which can't be explained from that angle of approach. How many readers pick up on the references to Northern myth & legend (for instance the way Bilbo passes Sting onto Frodo in his room in Rivendell by driving it into a wooden pillar is a direct 'echo' of an incident in the Volsungasaga). Such 'echoes' of Northern myth are far more significant & indisputable than the Christian ones - which are vague & general at best. I suspect they were also more important in Tolkien's mind as far as the actual storyline & events were concerned.
But all this is secondary. For the story to work it has to be self contained & not dependent on externals. The events must follow logically one from another, not simply be inserted to make a point, or illustrate a religious ideal. When they do this they are taken out of their original context & that context left behind. Tolkien may have chosen Dec 25th & Mar 25th for their Christian significance, but within the world of the story they actually take on a different significance & bear no relation to their original source. As soon as you see in Appendix B that the Fellowship set off on 'Christmas Day' you are in danger of finding yourself in another 'story' & out of Middle-earth. Tolkien disliked the Arthurian legends for their mixture of Christian & Pagan things. Here he was in danger of perpetrating the same mistake. There have been numerous books & articles recently by Christians which focus exclusively on the Biblical themes & characters, & attempt to claim the story for the Church. The truth, however, is that Tolkien was inspired by many sources, & possibly least by the Bible in terms of actual events & individuals out of them. I note that he spent a great deal of effort in the Letters attempting to 'prove' the work's orthodoxy - many of his Christian correspondents challenged him on that point. Many of his replies show him pushing the boundaries of 'interpretation' of his work virtually to breaking point, seemingly inventing motives & background on the spot. |
08-29-2006, 02:25 PM | #85 | |
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08-29-2006, 02:28 PM | #86 | |
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(I would also point fans of my 'equine tendencies' to my own Spun Candy thread & ask them to check out the number of posts & views there & ask them to recall the doldrums we were going through recently...)
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08-29-2006, 03:09 PM | #87 | |
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08-29-2006, 03:52 PM | #88 |
Raffish Rapscallion
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It all boils down to this...
Well I guess what it really comes down to then, davem, is that you are asserting that there are Christians out there who want to search Tolkien’s book for Christian-like themes so they can claim The Lord of the Rings “as their own” as you put it. I concede this. It is very likely that that isn’t just your perception of it, that there are actually those that are attempting that. It’s likely true because many circles of life are attempting to do that, as you’ve pointed out.
I am asserting that there is nothing that could even be considered remotely ‘wrong’ or out of place about discussing and debating possible parallels between Tolkien's great work and Christianity that fellow ‘Downers have discovered. As long as it is not trying to reduce it to a religious work (& it hasn’t been to this date) or have Tolkien’s motives dictated for him based solely on opinion then it’s simply individual readers discussing their individual interpretations. Of course I’m not saying that interpretations should be offered and then shielded “because that’s just my interpretation of it and you can’t take that from me!” They should still be debated...it’s just that it should be the interpretation, connection, or parallel that’s being debated and not a reader’s right to draw such. |
08-29-2006, 05:14 PM | #89 | ||||
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If your free thought allows you to make associations between Gandalf and Uncle Jesse, surely the activity will teach you more about both characters. Nobody's saying that your conclusions have to be right or wrong, but it's like comparing sunlight to shadow: to say that they are the same is logically dead wrong, but to search for similarities teaches tolerance and allows you to learn more about each by delving more deeply into them. Quote:
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08-30-2006, 01:12 AM | #90 | |
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The point of the thread was really to stimulate discussion by comparing & contrasting two great & inspirational texts, drawing parallels where possible in order to understand characters in the LOTR better. Maybe I used the word ''steal'' to such an effect that it decieved you. I was never attempting to say that Tolkein used the Bible as his main purpose for the LOTR, but that there are similarities that can be made between them, even if Tolkein himself didn't intend for that to be the case. There are other examples of this which spring to mind, for instance I found a lot of connections between The Speckled Band & An Inspector Calls, but who can prove that one author used the work of the other?. One could easily have compared those stories with the LOTR (although that may seem daunting at first), though they are not the subject of discussion here. Last edited by Mansun; 08-30-2006 at 01:16 AM. |
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08-30-2006, 06:01 AM | #91 |
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Sounds fine but I notice no-one's actually come up with any direct correspondences that work. All the suggestions so far (Elrond or Gandalf or Frodo is a 'Christ figure' all seem to have been rejected. Morgoth's story is a 'bit like' the story of Satan, etc).
The general feeling seems to be that some people are vaguely reminded of Biblical figures/stories. Where are the specifics? |
08-30-2006, 07:20 AM | #92 | |
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08-30-2006, 08:17 AM | #93 | |
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08-30-2006, 08:39 AM | #94 | |
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08-30-2006, 09:04 AM | #95 | |
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You seem to spend a great deal of time demanding to be allowed to do it & not actually doing very much is all... |
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08-30-2006, 04:57 PM | #96 | |
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No . |
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08-30-2006, 06:34 PM | #97 | |
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Your contribution was been well established. I look forward to handing you the title for winner of ''The Post of the Barrow Downs Award''. |
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08-30-2006, 08:02 PM | #98 | |
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 08-30-2006 at 08:11 PM. |
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08-30-2006, 08:45 PM | #99 | |||
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All in all, I don't think he disliked the presence (and the detection) of christian elements in his works; he stated that "I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories)" and he called LotR a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work". |
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08-31-2006, 02:07 AM | #100 | ||
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He was probably quite pleased when people wrote him letters saying "Oooh, such and such is like x biblical character", what with being Catholic and all. So no, he didn't dislike this. But the knots he ended up tying himself into over Galadriel at a later stage proved that some things, such as trying to 'build in' Mary Myth to his story weren't working; that whole struggle could even be why he never got round to finishing the Silmarillion, which began as a very pagan work, but which grew more and more thorny as he tried to 'Christianise' it.
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08-31-2006, 02:44 AM | #101 |
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My own feeling is that once the 'Christian' elements have been absorbed into the story (assuming of course the 'absorption' is successful ) they lose any specific Christian aspect & become a part of the Secondary world. Hence, they are no longer 'Christian'. To the extent that they are still identifiably Christian they have not been properly absorbed & the Secondary world is not truly self contained.
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08-31-2006, 03:33 AM | #102 | |||||
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08-31-2006, 04:22 AM | #103 |
Illustrious Ulair
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This is all a bit vague, though, & hardly specifically Christian. Pity, mercy, compassion are all essential to Buddhism, for instance. What is often cited as 'Christian' themes in these arguments are actually much more universal. Tolkien certainly found them in Christianity, but he could equally well have found them in other faiths. I think a Jew or a Muslim could equally well have written LotR, or a Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh. I'm also pretty sure that any readers of LotR who followed those faiths would have no issues with the philosophical underpinnings of the work or feel they were at all strange.
The specifics of Christianity (Incarnation, Sacrifice of God for the salvation of the World, Resurrection, etc) are absent from the story. |
08-31-2006, 04:40 AM | #104 | |
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It's not only Galadriel who got him into knots though, it was the Orcs too. He later agonised over whether it was 'moral' to have slaughtered so many Orcs. And he seems to have become alarmed when people saw the huge amount of pagan symbolism in the work (inevitable to me, that a Catholic writer's work would come across in such a way when deliberately avoiding religious allegory, considering that Christianity was built on the foundations of paganism); as a result he used his letters to explore the Christian side of the work and often muddled issues which were established in the secondary world he had created. Tolkien was the God of Arda, he was the only one who could create it and give it life, and that is what he did. With the letters, it's as though on the 8th day he opened the door and let some other God from another part of the void in, and we know what they say about too many cooks.
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08-31-2006, 05:11 AM | #105 | ||||
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08-31-2006, 05:21 AM | #106 | |
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As far as the Flame Imperishable which enters into the Heart of the World, I don't at all see any similarity with Christian belief - unless you're referring to the fires of Hell.... |
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08-31-2006, 05:31 AM | #107 | |||
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The question at the beginning of the thread was whether Tolkien took material from the bible, not whether he took it from the Upanishads, the Koran, or any other text. Quote:
They showed up in his writings much later, in Athrabeth an Andreth. Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 08-31-2006 at 06:04 AM. |
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08-31-2006, 06:09 AM | #108 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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You know, I'm cheered to see some of you making new discoveries and new associations; please don't let us old, wheezing geezers discourage you from setting out on your explorations.
I'm off to work shortly, and there alas I have no Barrow Downs access. But I'll toss this out for discussion among the newer set. Picture Gandalf's last stand on the Bridge of Khazad Dum. Think over the phrase, "Flame Imperishable." Now-- free-association time; without fretting about reactions and other's opinions... biblically, what comes to mind?
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08-31-2006, 06:14 AM | #109 | |
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08-31-2006, 06:26 AM | #110 | |
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Hence, it is not a 'Christian' work.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 08-31-2006 at 07:50 AM. |
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08-31-2006, 06:29 AM | #111 | ||
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Flame imperishable?
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rűdh; 08-31-2006 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Can't leave the wrong name on that quote |
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08-31-2006, 06:33 AM | #112 | |
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The fact still remains that the books do not contain that one major (in fact, pretty damn fundamental) aspect of Christianity. Christ. Hmm, I wonder has anyone considered that perhaps Tolkien, as a devout Catholic, recognised that the Bible, as the Word of God, was the only definitive Christian text. Why would he have sought to demean the real Bible by attempting to create his own version? Wouldn't that be blasphemous?
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08-31-2006, 07:16 AM | #113 | |
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Rather than using the word blasphemous, he chose the word parody, which he wanted to avoid. When I can find the letter, I'll edit this post with the proper BD reference.
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08-31-2006, 07:41 AM | #114 | |||
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08-31-2006, 07:59 AM | #115 | |
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It doesn't matter where Tolkien found the elements he used, what matters is what he did with them. Their final form is not a Christian form. The specifically Christian corners have been knocked off & those elements have been given a non-Christian form. Arguing that LotR is a 'Christian' story, or one with Christian elements is rather like arguing that the book you hold in your hands is a tree because it was made from wood pulp. |
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08-31-2006, 07:59 AM | #116 | ||||
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08-31-2006, 08:12 AM | #117 | |||
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If it is only something which contains christian specifics, in the plot, the characters or the symbolism, then Tolkien's works are not christian. If it is something which contains christian themes and christian ethics, without solely consisting of them, then they are. But since most works contain the ethics of their authors, and Tolkien's ethics were deeply influenced by christianity, this is not much of a surprise. Is it a work which has a christian message? This is a little difficult, since Tolkien's work does not have a specified message and everything depends on the individual application. Can you apply Tolkien in a christian way? - obviously you can. Can you apply Tolkien in a way that is not christian? - obviously you can. Quote:
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I cannot see a resemblance to this in your examples. |
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08-31-2006, 08:13 AM | #118 | ||
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08-31-2006, 09:13 AM | #119 | |
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Here we go again ... :/
Well, this all just goes to prove the primacy of the individual reader as the determinant of a book’s meaning.
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Of course, you might say that they mean what the author intended them to mean. But that only holds true as far as the author is concerned, together with those who are aware of such intended meaning (to the extent that it can be determined) and inclined to accept it. That again comes down to individual choice and individual reaction. Ultimately, therefore, it all comes down to personal reaction. Many here are arguing that LotR is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work. Others are arguing that it is nothing of the sort, because it does not contain specific Christian symbolism. Well, in my view, both camps are right and both camps are wrong. For those who perceive LotR as a fundamentally religious and Catholic book, then it is just that - for them. But it is neither fundamentally religious nor fundamentally Catholic to others. It depends upon your individual perspective, which informs and shapes your individual reaction. For those who insist that it cannot be a fundamentally religious and Catholic book, well you are right to suggest that it cannot be fundamentally religious or Catholic to those who do not perceive it as such, but you are wrong to deny the reaction of those who do perceive it in that way. Of course, there will be areas where our individual reactions overlap, where some of us can reach some measure of agreement as to the “meaning” of LotR, but that does not mean that such “meaning” will hold true for everyone. So, for example, Catholics may agree that there are Catholic themes and Catholic symbolism within LotR, although they may sometimes disagree on the specifics. Similarly, Muslims may agree that there are Muslims themes within LotR, while those of us without any strong religious belief may simply focus on what the book has to tell us about the human condition. Or, as davem has suggested, we may simply enjoy it as an entertaining story. Even then, our differing experiences and perspectives mean that we will have different individual reactions to it – in terms, for example, of how much we enjoy a particular aspect or how we interpret a character or event within the context of the fictional world. In this regard, therefore, I think that none of us can fully comply with davem’s entreaty to “leave our baggage behind”. Our individual experiences and perspectives will always be there, lurking in the background, influencing our reaction to the story. To a greater or lesser degree (and perhaps even only in very subtle ways) my vision of Middle-earth and my experience of the War of the Ring will always be different to yours. Davem suggested that the Christian interpretation of LotR is at its most objectionable when it seeks to evangelise or to preach, in effect to insist that this approach is the (only) correct one. Well, I might say that it is equally objectionable to seek to persuade those who do apply a Christian interpretation that they are wrong to interpret it in such a way, since that is in effect doing exactly the same thing. But, as a general principle, I would agree that it is wrong for anyone to insist that there is only one possible approach to a book like LotR and to use this to persuade others to subscribe to their “world-view”. Nothing wrong with expressing one’s reaction to LotR and attempting to delineate areas of agreement, perhaps even to find whether it strikes a chord with others. Quite wrong in my view to attempt to insist that one’s reaction is the only proper reaction or that it gives you a better appreciation of the book than others. Sometimes, though, it can be a fine line between the two. In my experience, it is a line which is crossed quite frequently here, particularly in discussions of religion and LotR. I have no doubt that this is usually unintentional. The subtle phrasing of a sentence to suggest implicitly that one has a superior understanding of LotR because one shares Tolkien’s faith. Or through seeking to define the terms of the discussion by reference to words which may appear quite neutral on the face of it, but which have implicit religious connotations. A prime example of this is the frequent bandying about of “truth-with-a-capital-T”, a word for which (despite many requests) I have never received a satisfactory explanation. As I understand it, it denotes the existence of some objective, eternal “truth”, independent of mankind, which cannot be denied. But I don’t necessarily accept that as a concept and so cannot accept it as a “given” in a discussion. Another example is “Eucatastrophe”, a word which I understand Tolkien himself coined. I am happy to discuss it in terms of what Tolkien meant by it. Similarly, I am happy to use it by reference to its simple, literary meaning – denoting a piece of writing which produces sudden joy in the reader at an unexpected and significant upturn in events. But I am uncomfortable with it when used implicitly to refer to the undeniable existence of that “truth-with-a-capital-T”, whatever it is. And a final example is those frequent references to the “sub-created world” when talking about the fictional world, since that phrase necessarily implies that the world within which we live, the “primary” world, was wilfully “created” by some sentient supernatural being. Again, that is a concept to which I do not necessarily subscribe. So, I see nothing wrong in discussing the possible biblical themes and symbolism within LotR. But I think that those whose reaction to LotR leads them to perceive it as a fundamentally Christian work should be careful not to insist that this is the only, or even the “best” or “correct”, interpretation of the book. Similarly, those who do not accept this approach should be careful not to deny the genuine and honest reaction of others who do. We all have our individual reactions to LotR. There are some that most, or even all, of us can probably agree on. There are others that some of us will never agree on. But, whether we can agree or not, it does not follow that any one particular reaction is the “right” or “correct” or “best” one.
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08-31-2006, 09:32 AM | #120 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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As for the text of The Lord of the Rings being Christian or non-Christian this really is a ridiculous discussion. It does not depend on the reader's point of view. It has nothing to do with the reader. If you're asking if the text is Christian for davem, for Fea, for yourself, or for myself - then it depends on how we interpret the text. But the actual meaning of a text is not dependant on a reader's interpretation, it depends on the author's intentions. To decide if "Rings" is a Christian work or not (which really shouldn't be the issue here) you have to go back to Tolkien's intentions. Tolkien did not intend for the books to be "Christian." Are there Chrisitan elements in them? That's what the discussion should be - I think there are. There are also many other elements in them. But the books are not Christian works because Tolkien didn't intend them to be. |
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