Elves and Ringwraiths

[Galin]

WCH wrote: That's a valid point, which I hadn't considered; but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Nerwen responded: Well, I'd never thought of it before myself until I re-read the passage a couple of days ago.

The difficulty is that at the start Tolkien is clearly referring to the Elves of Aman (and, by implication, the Vanyar) as well: "...Eldar, the name of the *Three* Kindreds that sought for the Undying Ream..."

So at some point the subject changes from all the Eldar to those of Middle-earth only. My guess is that the key is in the next sentence where he starts talking about "...such memories of this people as Men preserved...".

Yikes, both good points that I never thought about before..

... and [ahem] here I thought it was me who 'invented' this interpretation too


Reading the fuller passage again with both things in mind, I do agree [admittedly with some reason to, no doubt, in attempt to sustain the interpretation] that there is enough intervening text between the two statements, and perhaps notably, as I think is being noted by Nerwen, about how Men perceive what an 'Elf' is, and about them not possessing wings and so on, as some 'mortals' might think in Tolkien's day for instance.


So if this interpretation holds up, can I ask WCH to pass it on to CJRT and let me know what he thinks about taking this new footnote back out of publication?

Well of course I can ask... even if I already know the answer

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, I'll try; but I expect CT will place far more weight on the opinions of Hammond, Scull and Anderson than on mine! I am after all a mere 'pen-friend', not a 'scholar.'

Besides, there is the explicit passage in PME where Tolkien tells us that the Third Kindred, like the Second, was generally dark-haired ("generally" is mine).

[Galin]

Well far better from you than from me in any case. The only letter I ever sent to Christopher Tolkien was trampled by his magic wild boars...

... which is what the letter asked for however, desiring proof that they existed

Anyway, especially considering the phrase you raised, I thought that maybe you had 'cracked the case' on this point [meaning, come up with a good explanation outside of a seeming error] with something even H&S and Anderson maybe hadn't thought of yet. But now is the idea undermined somewhat [opening with besides seems to suggest this] by a description in PME?

[Ivriniel]

On the possible other hand I have posted before that Tolkien as Subcreator 'should' be, and was, greatly concerned with consistency, and that the purposed inconsistencies should be like pepper in the soup -- some measure will actually help make the Subcreated World more believable, but too much will, or at least might, serve to help 'ruin' the taste.

Materials imputing inferential significance to Tolkien's intentions are steeped in the tradition of analysis that compares and contrasts the various excerpts in a deeply inconsistent set of materials that evidenced, not just one evolutionary trajectory, but various evolutionary trajectories. Moreover, the vast masses of materials sometimes do, and sometimes do not restore an original idea. How long did Aragorn live? Twice or thrice the lifespan of men--he actually says 'twice' somewhere in one of his letters! But decided upon 190 years in the Appendices.

Methodologies for interpretation vary. My preferred mode--only because of personal preference and certainly not because it's the most efficient (whatever that means) way of approaching the Tolienien cosmology, is to explore what is revealed, in narrative text, between characters.

LotR, as we know, post dates the mythological foundation (not publication) of the Silmarilien. He wrote (no scrawled) many of his ideas down, on paper, well ahead of the eventual first publication of the Hobbit.

Consistency, was also sometimes deliberately avoided. His positioning of the anomalous responses of Bombadil to the Ring and Bombadil's obscure misalignment of existential themes surrounding Tom, was done on purpose. I read in that in Letters (and for the life of me I can't find it right now).

So, with all that in mind, and, methodological analyses aside, and how to adapt ideas about Tolkien's intention aside--what do we know about the topic at hand from in-text citations in the published story narratives?

[Ivriniel]

Elves and Ringwraiths.

In terms of the existential transformation that Men succumbed to after bearing a Ring of Power--a key feature, unclearly noted in the narrative--whether or not Sauronic influence extended the power of Men, or whether some other fundament was being implied about the relative potency of Elves and Men.....

Not quite as easy as it seems on the surface. Tuor versus Legolas? Hurin versus Feanor? Gil Galad versus Boromir? The juxtapositions imply instance variance.

We don't know much about the head ringwraith. Probably Numenorean. The Witchking. We actually know a little more about Khamil, the second most powerful Ringwraith......

[Ivriniel]

Khamul -- now he is very interesting for a number of particular reasons. I will provide textual analysis at the end of the post.

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent. Interesting, that, isn't it. He was the Ringwraith who pursued the Hobbits to the Buckleberry Ferry. He spoke to Maggot asking about "Baggins", was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pelenor and present at the Battle of Moranon.

Analysis

1. non-numenoreans can achieve a greatness that rivals them. Implying.
2. A capacity for potency in Men of normal lifespan, not of the Elder Days, not exposed to the Noldorin influence in Beleriand--not connected, in any way, to the Light of Aman. With intrinsically evil/dark personality attributes.
3. Why did Tolkien *only* speak about this particular Ringwraith. Interesting isn't it. This is one of those times that we need to make inferences by, not only presence (the one he spoke about), but what that means by way of inferences by absence (why did he choose to note Easterling Ringwraiths, but not the Numenorean ones?)

This is particularly noteworthy because of the prominence of the Witchking in the mythology, don't you think. How is it that the Witchking--responsible for the destruction of Arnor, the inadvertent loss of Arnor-ean artefacts (Palantiri in the Ice Bay of Forochel, when Arvedui was lost), and who also slew Earnil, last King of Gondor. Who sacked Minas Ithil. Who occupied Dol Guldur after Sauron reoccupied Mordor.

We don't know who the *bleep* The Witchking was, but we do the Easterling of Rhun.

The Easterling's potency is materials *deeply* discordant with the mythology as it much more typically caste ideas about the 'lesser' and 'fading' races. *And* the particular Easterling noted for his history.

I, truly, do not know what this means about what the capacities for power and potency are in the Mortal Races.

On an interesting addendum, the Pukel Men, had a particular resilience to Evil (this cuts the opposite way to Khamul) and who also had particular magical powers of their own. This legacy of magic is well noted in supplementary materials Christopher Tolkien wrote (I can quote citations if people seek those. But I read a story about a stone that a Pukel men charged with magic that protected, I think it was a Numenorean home, from an Orc assault).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pele[n]nor

Really?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pele[n]nor

Really?

Hi there WCH,

Materials can only be as reliable as the citations drawn from. You can never be really sure. See here

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Ringwraiths certainly played a decisive role in the assault on Gondor as Weapons of Mass Terror- but did they actually kill anyone, save those who eventually died of despair? I don't think so.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Ringwraiths certainly played a decisive role in the assault on Gondor as Weapons of Mass Terror- but did they actually kill anyone, save those who eventually died of despair? I don't think so.

I diden write the citation. Did they 'directly' slay? We knew they wielded actual weapons. The mace of the Witchking struck Eowyn, and all that. The morgal blade and Frodo at Amon Sul (that must have been a favourite ole haunt of the Witchking - pardon pun ). Though, as you say, you tend to see them screachin' like troubled children and making creepy sounds more than anything else.

On the point of the 'how' a Ringwraith gets such powers, I have been pondering, much about what kinds of 'energies' or processes are at work. Ea and all of that - perhaps some inverse variant of it? Perhaps, there's this 'sink hole' or dimension where Ea flows back [into] and perhaps Sauron runs the flow in reverse?

What is 'unlight' (Ungoliante's shadow web) and 'unlife' anyway, and Tolkien's particular use of antonyms for expressing something very specific....

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable. At least, I can't find a source for Khamul being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there, but if Tolkien ever specified Khamul was one of them, I don't believe he did it in either "Lord of the Rings" or "Unfinished Tales", which are the references given.

I could be wrong, of course- maybe I've missed something.

Hi there Nerwen, nice to meet u. I must say, I'd never heard it quite told like the reference put it, either, but it's been a while since I've gone to UT or LotR.

I'm gathering my tomes atm . There are the other five (terribly dense books, you'd have seen them or have them, 'The Straight Road, and four others. All that stuff about the Gnomes *screams in horror at the imagery* of Kor *second scream* and their original placement as Noldor *breaths sigh of relieve*. I have honestly had to put those books down for the sense of *gasp* violation *winks* that the contrary language adapts. And the multitude of variations to other materials.

Some of the posters here have an incredibly diverse array of other materials, well beyond Letters....I'm looking forwards to learning more, again, by being here.

Kind Regards to you
Ivriniel

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, I don't think that wiki you link to is all that reliable.

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent.

We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime, presumably, I would argue, to maintain the sense of anonymous terror associated with the Ringwraiths. Perhaps he originally intended to identify the Lieutenant of their dark order just as he had, to an extent, their Captain, but ultimately changed his mind.
The East of Middle-earth had lain under the shadow since time immemorial: first as the slaves and worshippers of Morgoth, and later in the same function for Sauron. I would not be surprised if several of the Ringwraiths were Easterlings (I would speculate that some, also, were probably Haradrim). Rhûn was a wide land, and the gift of Rings of Power to Easterling Kings might have secured its realms under his control amid the turmoils of the Second Age after Morgoth's empire collapsed.

[Galin]

... but it is reinforced by the end of the passage that says "they are all now gone"- cert. a reference to Middle-earth and not the Elves in Aman!

Looking at the other side of the coin here, while I think this does reinforce that the Eldar 'of Middle-earth' is meant, one could claim that the Vanyar are yet 'gone' as well, from Middle-earth that is, compared to other Quendi; and so the reference could still be to 'all' the Eldar from the perspective of the fictive translator writing Appendix F [Tolkien]...

... again arguably 'odd' in that the Vanyar were hardly 'of Middle-earth' in a historical sense, having all passed Over Sea so very early on -- compared to the Eldarin Noldor and Sindar leaving Middle-earth so very much later, and interacting with Men far, far more. And again I think the perspective does, or can at least, arguably switch to a Mannish perspective [thus who the heck are the Vanyar? And what they look like is hardly in mind when we speak of the 'Eldar' in Middle-earth].

In any case, Tolkien himself would maybe not find this kind of thinking odd, that 'Eldar' might be used without a true inclusive sense...

4. Elda and Eldo. The original distinction between these forms as meaning 'one of the Star-folk, or Elves in general', and one of the 'Marchers', became obscured by the close approach of the forms. The form Eldo went out of use, and Elda remained the chief word for 'Elf' in Quenya. But it was not in accurate use held to include the Avari (when they were remembered or considered); i.e. it took on the sense of Eldo. It may, however, have been partly due to its older sense that in popular use it was the word ordinarily employed for any Elf, that is, as an equivalent of the Quende of the Loremasters. When one of the Elves of Aman spoke of the Eldalie, 'the Elven-folk', he meant vaguely all the race of Elves, though he was probably not thinking of the Avari.

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar

And so it seems to me that from the perspective of Middle-earthers, one might use Eldar even if probably not thinking of the Vanyar.

Erm. If that makes sense.

Anyway sorry to the 'Elves and Ringwraiths' readers.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime, presumably, I would argue, to maintain the sense of anonymous terror associated with the Ringwraiths. Perhaps he originally intended to identify the Lieutenant of their dark order just as he had, to an extent, their Captain, but ultimately changed his mind.
The East of Middle-earth had lain under the shadow since time immemorial: first as the slaves and worshippers of Morgoth, and later in the same function for Sauron. I would not be surprised if several of the Ringwraiths were Easterlings (I would speculate that some, also, were probably Haradrim). Rhûn was a wide land, and the gift of Rings of Power to Easterling Kings might have secured its realms under his control amid the turmoils of the Second Age after Morgoth's empire collapsed.

In that case, it's actually little weird Sauron was willing to have three Nazgul who were Numenorian, or four (depending on whether the earlier guess of the WK's heritage is accurate or not). One would think he would want a max of ONE Numenorian Nazgul; to spread his rings and influence in as wide a net as possible. Yes, by the time he doles out the last rings, Sauron is nominally a prisoner there. But it seems to me that at no point was Sauron so desperate that he gave our rings out of neccecity, especially since he seemed well capable of bestowing "special" gifts on loyal servants that did NOT require a ring (such as The Mouth, or those two rulers (Fram and someone else, I think) Sauron seemed to always have the luxury of biding his time, and picking and choosing which nine men would make his "best" private force.
A part of me likes the idea of at least one or two Haradrian Nazgul to cement those regions securely (one or two depending on whether Near and Far Harad are similar enough to allow one indiviual to be ultimately in charge of both, or whether each would need it's own supreme ruler. It is even tempting to think that, should there be such a pair in the Wraith Ranks, they were numbered amoung the five at Pellenor, as supreme commanders of thier respective nations.
Gothmog II was probably a Numenorian. Given corrupted Numernorian tendencies to revel in the past, it would well fit a turned one to select as his new name that of the Chief of the Balrogs as a sort of "I am Gothmog re-incranted, I am a supreme Badass." (This assumes 1. Some or all of the Nazgul chose new names for themselves when they turned (likely I think, since I doubt that a normal man in most of the societies (especially the Numenorian, could get away with calling himself "Gothmog" and not arouse a lot of suspicion). and 2. They chose those names themselves, rather than having them bestowed on them by Sauron (in a sort of Emperor Palpatine situation))
Gothmog probably ranks third in the Hierarchy, since coordinating authority over the whole Pellenor force was given to him. Though this sort of contradicts my theory that rank in the Nazgul was determined by sieniority (i.e. The WK was the first man Sauron gave a ring to, Khamul was the second, etc.) If there are only three Numenorians, they would be the LAST three wraiths, and therfore, by that theory, the lowest ranked.)
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Could one be a Wainrider? Could another be a former ruler of Nurn? (actually the last might make a lot of sense, to have a wraith as ultimate authority over the Mordorian breadbasket to keep the slaves in line might be sensible.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In that case, it's actually little weird Sauron was willing to have three Nazgul who were Numenorian, or four (depending on whether the earlier guess of the WK's heritage is accurate or not). One would think he would want a max of ONE Numenorian Nazgul; to spread his rings and influence in as wide a net as possible. Yes, by the time he doles out the last rings, Sauron is nominally a prisoner there. But it seems to me that at no point was Sauron so desperate that he gave our rings out of neccecity, especially since he seemed well capable of bestowing "special" gifts on loyal servants that did NOT require a ring (such as The Mouth, or those two rulers (Fram and someone else, I think) Sauron seemed to always have the luxury of biding his time, and picking and choosing which nine men would make his "best" private force.
A part of me likes the idea of at least one or two Haradrian Nazgul to cement those regions securely (one or two depending on whether Near and Far Harad are similar enough to allow one indiviual to be ultimately in charge of both, or whether each would need it's own supreme ruler. It is even tempting to think that, should there be such a pair in the Wraith Ranks, they were numbered amoung the five at Pellenor, as supreme commanders of thier respective nations.
Gothmog II was probably a Numenorian. Given corrupted Numernorian tendencies to revel in the past, it would well fit a turned one to select as his new name that of the Chief of the Balrogs as a sort of "I am Gothmog re-incranted, I am a supreme Badass." (This assumes 1. Some or all of the Nazgul chose new names for themselves when they turned (likely I think, since I doubt that a normal man in most of the societies (especially the Numenorian, could get away with calling himself "Gothmog" and not arouse a lot of suspicion). and 2. They chose those names themselves, rather than having them bestowed on them by Sauron (in a sort of Emperor Palpatine situation))
Gothmog probably ranks third in the Hierarchy, since coordinating authority over the whole Pellenor force was given to him. Though this sort of contradicts my theory that rank in the Nazgul was determined by sieniority (i.e. The WK was the first man Sauron gave a ring to, Khamul was the second, etc.) If there are only three Numenorians, they would be the LAST three wraiths, and therfore, by that theory, the lowest ranked.)
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. Could one be a Wainrider? Could another be a former ruler of Nurn? (actually the last might make a lot of sense, to have a wraith as ultimate authority over the Mordorian breadbasket to keep the slaves in line might be sensible.)

There is no concrete evidence that the 3rd Age Gothmog at the Battle of Pelennor Field was a Nazgul. All we know is that he was a lieutenant to the WiKi in Minas Morgul, but that post did not necessarily require a Nazgul, as we know the lieutenant of Barad-dur was the Mouth of Sauron, who was a mortal without a Ring.

I believe Tolkien stated that at least three of the Nazgul were Numenorean (including the WiKi); in this case, it would be understandable if one of these great Numenorean Lords was a King of Umbar or in Harad, where the Black Numenoreans held sway for many years.

[Alfirin]

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)
Actually, ALL the Nazgul are probably Kings of some region, or whatever term is used locally for the ultimate leader. As his most trusted servants, Sauron would naturally want to put them in supreme charge of those areas under his Dominion. That's why I suggested one might rule Nurn; who else could he trust so much to make sure the supply of food for his troops continued safely.
Umbar does also seem a likey spot of rule for one, since, as you said, it is a Black Numenorian stronghold. My one problem with this is that, if one of the Nazgul IS the king of Umbar, where was he when Umbar was sacked. Granted, each ruling Nazgul must fairly regularly have to leave his realm in the hands of a trusted steward when they are off on other Sauronian business (if Gothmog is not a Nazgul, he probably is such and Individual in most cases the ruler of Minas Morgul in the Wiki's absence.) , but given that the Battle of Pellenor is a pretty major undertaking; you expect the Lord of Umbar to come with his fleet behind him (the same way the WiKi arrived at Pellenor with an army from Minas Morgul) At bare minimum you expect him to be popping back from time to time to check. Umbar is only a moderate distance (as compared to say Minas Morgul) from Gondor even by boat, by Fell Beast it's even less. Even if the Lord deicided it was more important to go on ahead to the battle and let his fleet follow him, he would have let whoever was left in charge know where he was in case messages needed to be sent. And messages WOULD be sent. No matter how abrupt the Dead Mens attack was and how through, one would assume some Umbarian would have been able to send a messager bird to his Commander (after Aragorn and Co. LEFT, if not before) if his Commander in Chief was already there ("Fleet destroyed. Enemy on way to you. Please advise.") And the Forces of Sauron should Know Aragorn is coming AGES before he gets there, and have a trap waiting for him. I'm not actually saying the Lord of Umbar CAN'T be one of the Nazgul, but if he is, he seems to be doing a lousy job of leading his people (and if he ISN'T one of the Five at Pellenor, then why not, seeing as how the likelyhood of his people being part of the fight is so high?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

The only materials I can't (yet) support is that he was one of three non-Numenorean Ringwraiths.

The supplementary analysis in my post holds with the information re-cited, from other locations (plural).

I have UT, in my hand, and I quote from The Hunt for the Ring, p. 338, Hardback, Allen & Unwin Ed.

"Now at that time the Chieftain of the ringwraiths dwelt in Minal Morgal with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Saruon's lieuteneant, with one other as his messenger"

There's his name (Tolkien did not leave them all anonymous. Presumably he just never developed their identities in narratives due to literary emphasis in the 'story he was telling'), his rank, association with Dol Guldur for a period, implications for his origin (Mortal of non-Numenorean lineage--*second* in charge).

All these materials are enough to support the textual analysis I provided, reposted, here:

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Indeed, you must never trust the "Lord of the Rings Wiki." It's a mess of book-lore, film material, "fanon", backstory from RPGs and amateur textual interpretation all muddled together. Note that it's too amateurish to even remember the "The" at the beginning of "The Lord of the Rings!" It's kind of like the post-Peter Jackson equivalent of one of David Day's reference books.

I generally go to the Tolkien Gateway when I need a quick hint for a reference: tolkiengateway.net I then confirm this with a primary source.


We may observe that Professor Tolkien ultimately omitted the naming of Khamûl in any text published in his lifetime.....

I've traced the citation to support my claims. UT, p. 338.

Khamul -- now he is very interesting for a number of particular reasons. I will provide textual analysis at the end of the post.

Khamul was the only Ringwraith Tolkien spoke about. Khamul was known as The Black Easterling and Shadow of the East--before he became a Ringwraith. He is implicated in the alliance between the land of Rhun and Mordor. He was second in power, but one of the six Ringwraiths not of Numenorean descent. Interesting, that, isn't it. He was the Ringwraith who pursued the Hobbits to the Buckleberry Ferry. He spoke to Maggot asking about "Baggins", was present killing Gondor-ian soldiers on the Pelenor and present at the Battle of Moranon.

Analysis

1. non-numenoreans can achieve a greatness that rivals them. Implying.
2. A capacity for potency in Men of normal lifespan, not of the Elder Days, not exposed to the Noldorin influence in Beleriand--not connected, in any way, to the Light of Aman. With intrinsically evil/dark personality attributes.
3. Why did Tolkien *only* speak about this particular Ringwraith. Interesting isn't it. This is one of those times that we need to make inferences by, not only presence (the one he spoke about), but what that means by way of inferences by absence (why did he choose to note Easterling Ringwraiths, but not the Numenorean ones?)

This is particularly noteworthy because of the prominence of the Witchking in the mythology, don't you think. How is it that the Witchking--responsible for the destruction of Arnor, the inadvertent loss of Arnor-ean artefacts (Palantiri in the Ice Bay of Forochel, when Arvedui was lost), and who also slew Earnil, last King of Gondor. Who sacked Minas Ithil. Who occupied Dol Guldur after Sauron reoccupied Mordor.

We don't know who the *bleep* The Witchking was, but we do the Easterling of Rhun.

The Easterling's potency is materials *deeply* discordant with the mythology as it much more typically caste ideas about the 'lesser' and 'fading' races. *And* the particular Easterling noted for his history.

I, truly, do not know what this means about what the capacities for power and potency are in the Mortal Races.

On an interesting addendum, the Pukel Men, had a particular resilience to Evil (this cuts the opposite way to Khamul) and who also had particular magical powers of their own. This legacy of magic is well noted in supplementary materials Christopher Tolkien wrote (I can quote citations if people seek those. But I read a story about a stone that a Pukel men charged with magic that protected, I think it was a Numenorean home, from an Orc assault).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Yes, that is true, the Mouth became second in Command of Barad Dur while still being a man (though in his case, given he is so old he has forgotten his name, the term "mortal" may be stretching things a bit.)

"His name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it."
I do not believe that the Mouth of Sauron was particularly ancient. We are only told that he had forgotten his own name, not that he had forgotten it due to age. In the same way I believe that Gothmog was a Man and not a Wraith. I associate him with the Morgul-riders who emerged from the Dead City with the Black Captain as witnessed by Frodo and Sam.

Khamûl was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. He seemingly no longer had any affiliation with the Easterlings by the end of the Third Age. In the same way I think we needn't find confusion in the idea of other Wraiths no longer leading their former realms to battle. The Lord of the Nazgûl was King of Angmar and Lord of Morgul in his time: he did not persist in a specifically Black Númenórean connection.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Actually, please have a look at some other citations. He was knows as the Black Easterling, Shadow in the East second in charge, occupant of Dol Guldur, Ringwraith in the Shire who spoke, the Ringwraith most able to sense the Ring, but most susceptible to sunlight.

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

[Inziladun]

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I don't dispute that. I am entirely familiar with the material in Unfinished Tales which relates to Khamûl. I was simply giving a general warning about the reliability of information on the "Lord of the Rings Wiki."

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I'm still thinking about the implications for having a non-Numenorean ace the Numenorean Ringwraiths (except the Witchking) in power. And what this means about Elves and Ringwraiths in a relative ranking of power.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This public computer for some reason will not allow me to quote, but I'm with Zigûr that the Mouth was not necessarily old, just that he had so submerged himself into Sauron's will that he had lost any sense of independant identity. It need not be assumed that Gothmog was in any similar state. He was probably just an Easterling, or maybe even an especially large, strong, and commanding Orc given that particular name in honor of Morgoth's fearsome field captain.

I also agree that the Nazgûl would have been unlikely to have kept any connection with the peoples of their origin. There would have been little need for it, given that Sauron already had a hold on those folk anyway.

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

There really is no definitive answer, but the conjecture is ominously fun.

[Nerwen]

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

I'm aware this is just a side issue, but I'd like to track down the source (if there is one).

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Nice touch with the 'Û'. I would have loved to have seen your ideas about Khamul. There was an interesting view about Tolkien's intention offered, possibly anonymising the Nazgul to add to their terror (for the reader), and so, querying whether or not Khamul, as a name, ever existed.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, the part I was querying is the claim that Khamul was at the Pellenor fields- not all the Ringwraiths were, as I recall, and I can't find any individual account of his later movements. Doesn't seem to be in UT, anyway.

Hey there Nerwen

I'm not sure off hand how many of the nine were at the Pelennor, cause I'm rusty about LotR, having not read it for about five years (though another read's on the brew). The only stuff I can find about Khamul (I haven't scanned, widely yet) was in The Hunt for the Ring.

I don't understand what you mean by that last bit; of course it existed- you've read the relevant text yourself. Are you asking whether it can be considered "canonical"?

...someone posted somewhere, upstream, an interesting idea about why Tolkien may [not] have deliberately [not] provided names (sorry about the double negative, but they're needed at times) for the Nazgul, before they were Nazgul. The idea being petitioned was that the anonymising of the Nine made them more frightening to the reader (ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray, coz all those Elendil supporters thought his inverted cross was mean i.e. by identifying with his human -- or once human -- side).

About canonical tomes, I'm sure there's some interesting views about 'which' materials to weight, when pressed, in topical items that have more than one position. Personally, I always retreat to LotR as much as I can, and the Appendices, and love the Silmarillion, but understand its Christopher-ising has caused problems. UT is often helpful. Letters, as supplementary materials for getting at Tolkien's intentions sometimes helps, though there's times I've found that problematic too.

Then, there's a whole bunch of more obscure materials, papers, even journals and Books, I've seen quoted. And high-brow inferential statements about author intention from those. I am enjoying getting into these citations, and have found myself prompted to go delving.....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think the advanced age theory of MoS is plausible, due to the odd way Tolkien refers to him: he is a Black Numenorean. How is that odd, you say? Considering that the Black Numenoreans as a race had disappeared quite a long time before the War of the Ring (Gondorions of Numenorean descent didn't refer to themselves as Numenoreans either). Could he have prolonged his life due to the necromantic arts Sauron himself taught him?

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Inziladun:

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master.

I've recently come to believe (with no textual proof whatsoever) that the Mouth of Sauron was given one of Rings that Sauron recovered from the dwarves. He simply hasn't had it long enough for it to have completely taken over his entire being. He's "part-way" to becoming a Nazgul. This would account for both a longer life, (long enough to have forgotten his own name.) and his ability to speak for Sauron autonomously. I can't prove it, though, obviously.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The story narrative doesn't suggest any advanced age for the Mouth, and to be old by the reckoning of Men and not show it, wouldn't he need to possess something of the Númenórean longevity? I get the idea though that the King's Men/Black Númenóreans lost that advantage more quickly than those of the Faithful, in which case he wouldn't necessarily be that old.

As for using Sauron's sorcery to prolong his life, that could be possible, I guess. In order to acquire "sorcery" from Sauron he needed, I think, to lose enough of his own identity to basically become (like the Ringwraiths) a mere extension of Sauron's will, which could allow him to share in the life of his Master. I wonder if that's the case though, what happened to him after the Ring was destroyed and Sauron fell. Did he die on the spot, or just quietly pine away? What good is a Mouth without a brain behind it? Maybe Tauriel could tell us.

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

Hey there Morthoron,

I take your point in the flow of logic, inference, even of intrigue in the discussion about the Mouth of Sauron. I haven't traced and researched my materials about Black Numenoereans--ever--as a detailed, particular delve, but have read what materials there are on them in UT, and--to the extend I can bear reading some of the other stuff (I just can't get my head around readings where the Noldor are 'gnomes' and Valinor 'Kor')--I have some materials probably in those books.

I'll go and have a look and see what's there. But, off the cuff, as a 'habit' or tendency, Tolkien tended to interweave in LotR, the ideas about the 'fading' years of Middle Earth, but where some small aspect, feature, person or artefact for another time could make an appearance. As, for example, the last of the Elves of Valinor were packing house and catching the Last Bus on the Straight Road line to Elfy places we also had Shadowfax, a re-appearance of the 'nobler' former high horsy things, and 'one or two' Palantiri, the vestiges of the empire of a Numenorean-o-rama. We had an elfy blade or two from the First Age, a Blade or two from Arnor (Barrow Wight treasure), Shelob (a fairly big spider, getting a bit towards Ungoliante), and so on.

The 'Last Black Numenorean'? I dunno. As you say, 2000 years is a long time, and it's not like you ever see a Roman Legion marching down the street.

But, now and then, you do see a throw back to a former time, either culturally or genetically. I suppose, in the spirit of Shadowfax, The Mouth of Sauron could have come from that part of Umbar where there still dwelled an enclave of the equivalent of the Rangers of the North, or a scion of a Noble House, or even the product of a child of a captured Gondorian female Dunedain.....that is, the slave traders would probably have taken people from Gondor for that kind of thing. Perhaps they caught someone from Gondor who had a lot of Numenorean blood?

Ivriniel

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

"(ie stops one getting all warm and fuzzy about The Witch King, before he was a Witch King, and so sad for his fate, coz he woz once-a nice guy who just got led all astray)."

Which would have inevitably led to an awful prequel trilogy focusing on how young Anaquen was seduced to the Dark Side.....

I'm sure you're right. I suspect that Tolkien, had he been alive and bombarded by fans asking a ka-gillion questions about a mythology with several billion offshoot items mentioned and left tacit, that he may have answered the questions about the fates of the Nazgul.

I want to know what kinds of dreams they started having, what they did when they put their Rings on, how their habits and personalities started changing and also, what happened to their Spirits, bodies and flesh. Did Mandos accept them? Where do Wraiths go in the cosmology when they 'die' or end?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ivriniel, ... being present at the Battle of the Pelennor fields. There were five Ringwraiths there...

Are you sure? I know of a reference (Siege of Gondor) where there were five ringwraiths flying against Faramir when he returned from Henneth Annun - but that was a few days before the battle.

Later, I only see references to "the nazgul", without being specific how many (five, eight, or whatever).

The WK rode to (and in) the battle on a horse - but had his winged beast available (as he used it when Theoden arrived) ... so he was "probably" not flying around buzzing the city during the battle like other ring wraiths (leaving eight or fewer in the air) - but even that is only conjecture (even if rational).

I've missed references before which is why I ask. If I've missed something here please point me to it.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Are you sure? I know of a reference (Siege of Gondor) where there were five ringwraiths flying against Faramir when he returned from Henneth Annun - but that was a few days before the battle.

Later, I only see references to "the nazgul", without being specific how many (five, eight, or whatever).

The WK rode to (and in) the battle on a horse - but had his winged beast available (as he used it when Theoden arrived) ... so he was "probably" not flying around buzzing the city during the battle like other ring wraiths (leaving eight or fewer in the air) - but even that is only conjecture (even if rational).

I've missed references before which is why I ask. If I've missed something here please point me to it.

No, I'm not sure. But I assumed that was the part the wiki was referencing, rather than the chapter "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"- I believe it's the only thing that would fit the description. Compare "mounted on his fell beast and killing Gondor's soldiers" to "out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgul stooping to the kill". That is, I think there's been some conflation- I could have been clearer about that, I guess.

Anyway, the main point is I don't believe there's any way of telling whether Khamul was there or not. Later- well, since *all* the Nazgul were at the Morannon, and *all* perished with the Ring, and since, by inference, Khamul would have been in charge at this point, I can't say the wiki is factually incorrect here... yet, it seems to me to give a false impression. You would think, just from this, that Tolkien had left a fairly detailed account of what this particular Nazgul did right up to the end. If there is one, it's not in the references given.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien left no account of the doings of particular Nazgul, other than the notes associated with the Hunt for the Ring

After the Bruinen, all we know is that
* A Nazgul was shot down by Legolas at Sarn Gebir
* A few days later, another Nazgul met with Grishnakh on the west bank of Anduin, ordering him to rejoin Ugluk
* A Nazgul swept over Frodo, Sam and Gollum in the Dead Marshes
* Two passed overhead while F, S & G hid in the Slag-mounds
* A Nazgul passed over Dol Baran the night of the Palantir en route to Isengard just before midnight; a second overflew Edoras at dawn (these were originally intended to be the same as the previous pair)
* Five attempted to destroy Faramir's company retreating from Cair Andros
* Eight (prob) provided CAP during the Siege of Gondor; the WK (prob) stayed on the ground
* Pelennor: WK breaks Gate, kills Theoden, dies. One flies back to Barad-dur with news; one (prob the same one) flies to Cirith Ungol, too late to catch F & S escaping
* Eight, prob in shifts, shadow the Captains of the West.
* All eight survivors at Morannon; destroyed.

[Nerwen]

Thanks, WCH.. That's about what I thought.

What do you make of this, though?

Originally Posted by LOTR Wiki

==Rumors==
*According to another version of the stories Khamûl was stationed at Dol Guldur on March 6th, when Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron and began marching on the wood elf kingdoms on March 10th. On March 11th, his forces began assailing the nearby Lórien. After this failed, much of his force passed around the border of the woods and entered the The Wold. On March 12th, they were met with Ents sent east from Fangorn and Isengard, and were routed. Lórien was then attacked twice more on March 15th and March 22nd, but was never entered. The forces of Dol Guldur also went north into Mirkwood, battling the forces of King Thranduil under Mirkwood's trees, the climax of these battles being on March 15, 3019 which after a "long battle... and great ruin and fire" was won by Thranduil's forces.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Do remember that the Nine were given their rings in the Second Age, and the political geography of Middle-earth was not at all that of the Third (indeed we know little about it). The Ringwraiths first appeared about SA 2250 thirty years before Umbar was built (and they 'appeared', one supposes, quite some time after they had been given their rings).

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

You know, there's no reason to presuppose that this is impossible. Whoever the Witchking was, he certainly had a particular hatred, it does appear, of Arnor, and also of Gondor, and was pivotal in the loss of Elendil's line in Arvedui and Earnil.

We know that there was shipping traffic between Numenor and Middle Earth. There's no necessity, I think, to presuppose that the Nazgul of Numenorean background were all Black Numenoreans from the same region. Sauron/Annatar may well have, or could have 'seduced' (that seems to be Tolkien's favourite word for this), basically, some hapless soul, disaffected by Numenorean propriety, from anywhere! Annatar was able to befuddle the Noldor, though not in Cirdan's region, where there was some suspicion about him.

The Ost-In-Edhil was around quite a few hundred years. Sauron was at it, basically, from nigh the start of SA. He also must have spent times abroad, sometimes for years, because he was able to vanish long enough from Elven circles to build the Sammath Naur, the road to the summit of Orodruin, and the Barad Dur. Those are no small feats. The Bard Dur, I'd have thought, was kinda like building a skyscraper, but with vast dungeons, in a labyrinthine complex.

I.e. plenty of time to go find a Numenorean, in Middle Earth or on a boat from Numenor, that he gifted with a Ring.

So--

[modern reality language mode]...who hated Numenorean Faithful and who were of Numenorean descent? And enough to be so fixated on taking them down? Some disaffected prince, a jacked off distant cousin to the King/Queen of Numenor, or someone who had been publicly shamed in Numenor, or Middle Earth, either on false or real grounds. Presumably, Numenor had its criminal element, swag of thieves, property damage rebellious adolescents, substance users and those bent on sexual improprieties (Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born). I assume Sauron would have appealed to grandiosity and entitlement, whilst feeding vengeful thinking (narcissism) as he manipulated the situation. As was the case with Maeglin, I also suspect Sauron seduced by promising wealth, power, social status--and as with Maeglin--sexual entitlement, as well as enhanced sorcery. He sometimes used the word 'sorcery' to hint or suggest at a magical process that was a corrupting influence. He did so for the two Blue Wizards in that little commentary that left indications of their fates and fall into evil ways, for example, and talked about a 'sorcerer' who occupied Dol Guldur before the White Council knew it was Sauron...[/modern reality language mode]

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

(Eol the Dark Elf was, for example, basically, a sex offender. He imprisoned Idril Celebrindil in his creepy tree house, and of that union Maeglin was born)

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It is interesting that the appearance of the Ringwraiths comes in the same entry as "Tar-Ancalimon takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins." Could one or more of the RW, when still visible "mortal" men, have been Sauronian agents in Numenor itself?

My general assumption was that the three Númenórean Nazgûl would have been Lords in Middle-earth, perhaps colonial governors of the local Haradrim and so on, but I suppose there's no reason to think that they might not have been primarily based in Númenor itself given how much transit evidently existed between Middle-earth and the Land of Gift at the time. The reason I mention transit is because I would argue that Sauron probably didn't go to Númenor to dispense Rings.
As you point out WCH, the Ringwraiths appeared in 2251, thirty years into the reign of Tar-Ancalimon (2221-2386). The shadow first fell on Númenor apparently during the reign of his grandfather Tar-Ciryatan (1869-2029). The One Ring was forged c. 1600, and Sauron acquired the Nine during the War of the Elves and Sauron (1693-1701). If Sauron seized and dispensed the Nine prior to or during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan then between the War and Ciryatan's death there is a healthy time frame of 168-328 years. Perhaps the Númenórean Ringbearers might have had some influence in the descent of the shadow upon Westernesse.
If I think about it, Númenóreans would in some respects be ideal people to provide with Rings: they already had abundant resources and power to turn to their advantage, and being an already longeval people, any Ring-granted longevity would be unremarkable and no cause for suspicion. That being said, Tar-Ciryatan's corruption might also have been observed by Sauron as an opportunity to put the Rings to work, rather than the Rings sowing the seeds of corruption. Indeed personally I am more inclined to support the notion that the corruption came before the Rings, as in my opinion it is more thematically effective if Sauron is the exacerbator, rather than the originator, of the darkening of Númenor.

If I might touch upon the Mouth of Sauron, incidentally, I don't think it's necessarily implausible for us to imagine enclaves of Black Númenóreans surviving in certain places, deep in Harad and elsewhere. This is pure speculation. I simply don't think the Mouth of Sauron could have been both a) extremely ancient, and b) not a wraith.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think you mean Aredhel Ar-Feiniel, sister of Turgon, as the spouse of Eöl. Idril was the daughter of Turgon, and Maeglin's cousin.

apologies, yes. In fact, I've repeated that error many times, over the years. crossed wire memory.

Point though, was not about genealogy. It was about Eol's sex offending and creepy tree house. Developmental delay What's a full grown elf doing playing in tree houses?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

It was about Eol's sex offending and creepy tree house. Developmental delay What's a full grown elf doing playing in tree houses?

I think Professor Tolkien was concerned by extremes and extremist philosophies. Fëanor held sway over many of the Noldor and a great deal of destruction ensued from his belief that Morgoth could be defeated militarily by his own means. One might as well have tried to hunt down and destroy the very concept of evil. By contrast, Eöl was a loner, self-isolated and reclusive. His covetousness of his family was another extreme attitude, the opposite one might say of kingly Fëanor, which also brought about a great deal of suffering in the long term.

Characters in Professor Tolkien's work always fail when they are unwilling to compromise, when they operate only in extremes and absolutes. Arda was a fallen world; having one's cake and eating it too was not just unlikely, it was a metaphysical impossibility. Relating to the topic of this thread, the Elves and the Ringwraiths are exactly the same case. The Elven-smiths believed they could build Aman in Middle-earth. This failed. Sauron believed that, with the forging of One Ring, he could in a single master-stroke instantly and irrevocably dominate forever the population of Middle-earth. Such an extremist plan could never hope to succeed. Nothing is ever 'consequence free' in Middle-earth. Nothing succeeds one hundred per cent.