Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXVIII: A Full Moon Over Innsmouth

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

she sets out her thoughts on everyone in the village. Only it doesn’t really say very much at all. Indeed, if I am honest, it is a masterpiece of non-committal. For each villager, she either says they might be a Wolf or they might not, or she has nothing to say about them.
...
Overall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.
...
my main suspect by far is Loslote, on account of her unnervingly Wolfish behaviour.

It's interesting you say that you think that those who see Nienna's reactions to a first vote of the Day as over-nervous á la wolves are suspicious but then base your own vote on something as solid as what you say in the quote above...

Wouldn't this quote of yours describe also your vote and your reasons for it?

Originally Posted by Spm

I am more alarmed about those who have sought to make more of it than it merits

Okay. Yes, there's very little to go on as usual on Day1 and we all have to find whatever there could be to help us in our judgements. I think you Spm are reading way too much in Loslote's indecisiveness and I see more merit in the fact that Nienna reacted so strongly on the vote on her. I don't think either is a good "case" in any way but both are better than nothing.

But are they or either of them correct arguments? That's the tough one...

EDIT: X'd with Roa

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

So, just like practically everyone else on your list, he might be a Wolf but he might not be, but you’re going to vote for him anyway. Why him in particular? The vote ends up being very unreasoned. Overall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.

She's only played one game before, though.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I am currently wary of Pitchwife, Inzil, Larien and Nerwen, for the reasons stated above.

Why me? Because of what Morsul said?

EDIT:X'd since SPM.

[Pitchwife]

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?
About that Hakon-Inzil thing, I don't know - Zil has a knack for making himself suspicious and getting lynched early, so he's not an unlikely target for a wolf-started bandwagon, though I'd expect that to be done with a little more reasoning. On the other hand, as far as I can see Hakon is consistently being himself - hunches, weird reasons and all; not that he couldn't still be a wolf (as could Zil) - I haven't yet seen what a Hakon-wolf looks like and might not recognize it before it bites me in the nose.
Not that all this leaves me (or you) any the wiser...

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, but THAT screams "wolf" to me.

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

My point is, had I been in Ni's place, I would have ignored his vote.

I feel this is just a matter of how different players react to different scenarios. I probably would have reacted the same as Nienna, which is why I'm willing to take her reaction as a panicked innocent rather than a panicked wolf. I'd rather see what how Nienna reacts when she receives a vote that is more than just a newbie's confusion. If the reaction is the same, then perhaps there's some merit to what Legate and Nogrod have said. For now I prefer to wait and see when it comes to Nienna.

Originally Posted by Roa

I don't like Brinniel's post at all. By the time she posted there was a lot to comment on, but instead of doing anything useful, she posted a lot of bantering fluff. If she contributes not further I will likely vote for her.

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Edit: x-posted with Pitchwife

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Hence the disclaimer "If she contributes no further." After last game (a bit of meta-gaming but can't be helped) I am far more cautious of those that seem to be hiding in the shadows with no one able to get a real feel for them.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Legate

Of course Morsul's vote for Nienna has no real substance, but then why are you so overreacting, Nienna? You behave as if half of the village was after you.

The first time I responded I believed he had voted for me because of the role I chose. I wanted to clarify that I chose the character before roles were assigned. I also wanted to let him know that those are not good reasons to vote for someone. It may have seemed a little defensive because there were a few games where people have lynched me on Day One for bad reasons and I didn't'/don't want that to happen again.

Hope that clears that up.

I have to vote now because I have to run and get some work done.

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

I have no real reason for voting anyone right now so I'm going to have to go on my gut. There is just something a bit off with Pitchwife right now... I can't really place my finger on it. I'm really sorry and I know this is a terrible reason to vote for someone but I have nothing stronger.

++ Pitchwife

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Hence the disclaimer "If she contributes no further." After last game (a bit of meta-gaming but can't be helped) I am far more cautious of those that seem to be hiding in the shadows with no one able to get a real feel for them.

Apologies, I missed the "If she contributes no further".

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

So then does that mean you find something unusual about his playing style and/or vote? I'm confused because this is really the first mention you've made of who you suspect and I'm not even sure you suspect him.
And Nienna probably won't be on again to answer my queries before Day 1 ends, but why Pitchwife? I realize this is a random/gut vote, but what Pitchwife say to give you a gut feeling in the first place?

[Nogrod]

Okay.

Apart from Nienna I seem to have only one decent pair of candidates which is Lari and wilwa - and I need to run for the choir rehearsals in a moment.

Now I see many people have raised concerns with wilwa but just suggesting that people should talk a lot even if they don't have a lot to say is not the greatest possible argument against her. Actually it doesn't make her look guilty in any way. But the sudden defence of her by Lari (with actual points why - which she gave practically of none else) when some suspicion started to emerge raises my eyebrows to be sure.

I just saw Nienna's post and am not sure what to say of it. Her explanation feels genuinish but it reminds me of yet one thing that looked so overdefensive about her, eg. quoting herself in the admin. thread before the roles were dealt. If that is not over-defensive then what is?

And I am a bit confused about her vote as well...

Bah. Needs to vote now.

++ Nienna


EDIT: X'd with Kit

[Pitchwife]

SpM, I hope the remark about your masterpiece being complete referred to your painting, not your post.
So my responding your 'flim-flammery' list in your first post in kind and extending it to include yourself was 'unduly hostile'? Why would you take my words about scales, webs, fur & claws as anything but the Day 1 banter they were - or did I accidentally hit home? And please note that the only words of yours I singled out in my first post were those about Zil, none about myself, as you claim. You only started talking about me and Zil together later, and I've commented on that above. If you still think I'm defending Zil, look at my last two posts.
And if you truly suspect me for such flimsily construed reasons, why would you turn on Lottie for her vote for me, when her reasons are not that much worse? OK, she hasn't really offered that much substance, but 'unnervingly wolfish behavior'? Now those are strong words, and I don't see what she's done to justify them.

[A Little Green]

I'm here and reading, have less time than I thought so I'll probably have to suffer SPM and Nogrod's wrath and be very inactive toDay.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

Yep, I have mentioned this reason as well (as the second paraghraph of my comment on her).

Originally Posted by Nienna

The first time I responded I believed he had voted for me because of the role I chose. I wanted to clarify that I chose the character before roles were assigned. I also wanted to let him know that those are not good reasons to vote for someone. It may have seemed a little defensive because there were a few games where people have lynched me on Day One for bad reasons and I didn't'/don't want that to happen again.

Hope that clears that up.

Okay, fine with me. I guess I can see your point now, or accept it.

By the way, speaking of that...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?

Okay, this is actually once again one moment where I am becoming unsure of Pitchwife. First, it looks slightly like... well, in his whole last post, he is basically stemming from things I said (or also Nogrod for that matter, etc.). It could be sort of like a Pitchwolf picking up some people of the more vocal sort and trying to make a good eye for himself by agreeing with them. Also, using their arguments as basis while expressing slight doubt would be a good cover for a Wolf in order not to need to make up any own reasons.
Secondly also, I don't think I have ever mentioned Nienna's reaction as being wolfish. In fact, indeed I have only expressed my wonder. (And now I take her explanation as acceptable.) So I wonder where this "wolfishness" came from, if it's supposed to have come from me, it could hint on some thought processes which perhaps read what they want to read (a Wolf wishing to read a suspicion being raised, so that he can continue on it)?
It may not be so, of course, and it can be interpretated in many ways. But it just again raises my awareness of Pitchwife.

EDIT: x-ed since Kitanna

[Kitanna]

I got called into work early, so I have to vote now.

I'm starting to wonder about Nienna based on her vote. That's not enough for me to vote for her though. I'm curious as to what she has to say regarding it. That said...

++ Wilwa

I've said before what I think of Wilwa and her idea, no need to repeat them in their entirety. In short, to me it looks like she could be calling for noise to hide in. Her vote doesn't help her either. She voted for Hakon based on his vote, accusing him of something that she is doing herself. Maybe I'm completely misjudging Wilwa, but right now she looks the most unusual to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now I see many people have raised concerns with wilwa but just suggesting that people should talk a lot even if they don't have a lot to say is not the greatest possible argument against her. Actually it doesn't make her look guilty in any way. But the sudden defence of her by Lari (with actual points why - which she gave practically of none else) when some suspicion started to emerge raises my eyebrows to be sure.

I just saw Nienna's post and am not sure what to say of it. Her explanation feels genuinish but it reminds me of yet one thing that looked so overdefensive about her, eg. quoting herself in the admin. thread before the roles were dealt. If that is not over-defensive then what is?

Hmm, well, I don't really think so. Like I said, now I am calmed by her explanation. But okay, you may disagree - still though, I would like to know (perhaps later if you are not around now, then), why Nienna and not wilwa, as it seems to me that your level of suspicion of the both of them seems more or less the same. So, just something if you could do me a favor and elaborate on it a bit.

EDIT: x-ed with Kitanna

[Roa_Aoife]

++SPM

Because he has been throwing around suspicion as if it had the full weight of sound reasoning behind it when it didn't. And also because in all of his actual suspicions (not counting the banter) someone else expressed if not suspicion then unease or wariness in that direction first, which he then played up into a case with no merit.

Some people have a hard time showing up on Day 1, so I'm going to let Brinn go for now, but if she does the same toMorrow, I will vote for her.

Edit: crossed with kitanna down

[Pitchwife]

Time to get serious.

++SpM
While his is not the only poorly reasoned vote up to now, I'd surely expect better from him if he was innocent. Even the case he made against me was better than the one he based his vote on.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You see, I just don’t get this. A Wolf and an innocent will both approach the question in exactly the same way. Both will be making up something based upon their stated role. I actually preferred [B]Craydon’s[/BOverall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.

Loslote has appeared on my radar as well. Like you, I didn't see that the 'answer a question' prosposition would be of much use in wolf-hunting, yet she landed on it with both feet.
Also, the vote for Pitchwife feels somewhat forced, and looks to me like she's possibly just taking something said by Nog and SPM and running with it.

The deal with Nienna: her reaction to Morsul did look somewhat defensive, especially considering that it was only one vote. Like Legate said, it would be a different matter if it had come at a pivotal time when she was in serious danger of a lynch.

Cray(d)on should get a pass toDay, but toMorrow all bets are off.

Hakon's vote, as so many have noted, was illogical, but it is somewhat in character for him to vote based on hunches and such. I don't think I'll go for him toDay.

EDIT- x'd with lots

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Time to get serious.

++SpM
While his is not the only poorly reasoned vote up to now, I'd surely expect better from him if he was innocent. Even the case he made against me was better than the one he based his vote on.

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

Yes, it does.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Not that I disagree with the suspicion (obviously) but that looks a bit bandwagony.

You think I don't know that? I would have preferred to handle this more subtly, if I could, but just so we don't mess up:
I know for a fact The Saucepan Man is a wolf.
How? Well, guess!
I'm the Dreamer.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?

Not necessarily, no... and perhaps not so much of an overreaction. I mean, it's all too easy for a silly vote on Day One to turn into a bandwagon.

However, this is pinging my radar a bit–

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

The following is somewhat meta-game reasoning, I guess, but anyway– that happens to be very close to a quote from a Nerwolf on Day One last game. That is, I voted for somebody else while explaining why I wasn't going to lynch Hakon just because of his history of being lynched early... with the subtext that hey, look everyone, this guy's actually pretty darned lynch-worthy *hint**hint*

Interestingly, I believe Nienna was the only goodie in that game who picked up what I'd done... Could a Wolfienna have remembered it as a useful technique? I'd certainly be flattered if that's the case.

*shrug* You could argue the other way, and say that a Wolfienna wouldn't use the same method in the very next game, especially when I'm playing too.

X'd with a host, including Pitchy's revelation. Well, well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You think I don't know that? I would have preferred to handle this more subtly, if I could, but just so we don't mess up:
I know for a fact The Saucepan Man is a wolf.
How? Well, guess!
I'm the Dreamer.

What the

Okay, well. That's a very... interesting turn of events. Okay, well. I guess there is no way why you would lie to us at this stage. Eurgh. Brilliant. That means... that means, let's lynch SpM? *sigh* (Lommy is going to be happy, she said she pitied the fact that she won't play with SpM... now if he dies, that's perhaps less of a loss...)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You think I don't know that? I would have preferred to handle this more subtly, if I could, but just so we don't mess up:
I know for a fact The Saucepan Man is a wolf.
How? Well, guess!
I'm the Dreamer.

You are? If so, I think your revealment was a bit premature.

[Lariren Shadow]

Awake and commenting.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Somehow the way how Lari makes her comment on wilwa strikes me: It may be that she just wished to express herself differently (there are many of whom she says only "seems innocent" or "pretty innocent looking" etc.). But of wilwa she says that we should keep her around with actual backing / arguments for why she thinks so. And I think there had been some suspicions raised on wilwa, so that would fit "nicely" ...

I really only meant to change up what I was saying. I did my list from the bottom up, got tired of saying "seems innocent" and decided to go with a different spin. Although the fact that you're jumping on it makes me alarm bells ring.

To add to the Nienna reaction: I didn't see anything more than her trying to point out rules to a newbie. She might have also been slightly annoyed because she can get lynched Day 1 and doesn't like it.

I'm still trying to figure out who to vote for. But in the mean time I did a vote count:
Morsul --> Nienna
Hakon --> Inzil
Loslote --> Pitch
Crayon --> Inzil(2)
Wilwa --> Hakon
SPM --> Loslote
Nienna --> Pitch(2)
Nog --> Nienna(2)
Kitanna --> Wilwa
Roa --> SPM
Pitch --> SPM (2)

In order of getting the most votes: Inzil, Pitch, Nienna, and SPM with 2. Hakon, Loslote, and Wilwa 1.

[Inziladun]

All right, fine.

++ SPM

If this turns out to be a bust, we'll have an obvious target toMorrow.

[Roa_Aoife]

Vote count (because I want one)

Morsul-> Nienna (Very confusing. Brush it off to newbieness, but I hope to see more today)
Hakon-> Inzil (Meta-game reasons, but better than picking a name out of a hat, in my opinion.)
Loslote-> Pitch (Perhaps poor reasoning, but still better than a name out of a hat.)
Crayon-> Inzil (2) (No reason given, hopefully he will have something when he returns toMorrow)
Wilwa-> Hakon (Seems to be confusing Hakon's statement about SPM with his reason for voting Inzil)
SPM-> Loslote (Poor case made to look solid)
Nienna-> Pitch (2) (Gut-vote, I don't have a problem with it)
Nogrod-> Nienna (2) (At least he has a case which he admits is flimsy)
Kitanna-> Wilwa (I don't see an issue with her reasons)
Roa-> SPM (well...)
Inzil-> SPM (2) (Odd way to jump on like that, even if I do agree)

edit: crossed. *sigh* way to panic

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And by the way, just before this happened, I was about to post the voting count. Just for record (when I have already done it):

Morsul --> Nienna
Hakon --> Inzil
Loslote --> Pitchwife
Crayon --> Inzil(2)
wilwa --> Hakon
SpM --> Loslote
Nienna --> Pitchwife (2)
Noggoth --> Nienna (2)
Kitanna --> Wilwa
Roa --> SpM
Pitchwife --> SpM (2)

Left to vote: Inzil, Nerwen, Legate, Little Green, Lari, Brinn.

By the way, I was about to vote for wilwa, and I almost posted it. But this slightly changes the situation. I would just like to see other people's comments on Pitch's revelation and then vote.

EDIT: x-ed with several. Ah yea, somebody had the same idea.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, whatever.

++SpM

I don't think there is anything to wonder about, it would really make no sense to make a claim here if it was untrue... and also it's logical that Pw would dream of SpM, as he's this legendary 'Downer who hasn't played for ages...

[Inziladun]

I guess it's possible Pitch could be the Agent, but trusting him for now seems to be the logical thing to do. At least we'll have somthing concrete to go on toMorrow, one way or the other.

[Nerwen]

Well, then, it's now easy–

++The Saucepan Man.

EDIT:X'd with Legate and Inziladun.

[Brinniel]

While Nienna may have overreacted to a newbie's vote, I don't think it necessarily merits wolfish behaviour. It sometimes can be frustrating to be voted for bad reasoning, even if it is by a newbie.

As for wilwa's vote, I am a bit wary of anyone who is still eager to lynch Hakon so early in the game. While of course it is possible he's actually a wolf, too often he's been lynched early for his odd behaviour and turned out innocent. Surely those who've played with him have learned our lesson not to be so quick to vote him just for his weird behaviour. Hakon has poor reasoning for his vote and suspicions, but nothing he's said so far seems out-of-character to me.

As for those two non-reasoned votes I spoke of earlier, I won't vote Cray since he's new, but I've seen some good points about Loslote who seems to be contributing without saying much and will be watching her more closely.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I guess it's possible Pitch could be the Agent, but trusting him for now seems to be the logical thing to do. At least we'll have somthing concrete to go on toMorrow, one way or the other.

Eurgh. I haven't thought of that, but that would be probably the most brave move I've ever seen, especially also as the Agent would not know who the WWs are. So I wouldn't be worried (but you scared me here for a bit).

Who was the one shouting "we'll get a WW toDay we will we will!"? Speaking of that, even if it is so, we should not lay down and be happy. There are more about. *goes to check the thread for SpM's reactions to people - the sooner, the better*

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I guess it's possible Pitch could be the Agent, but trusting him for now seems to be the logical thing to do.

He could be, but in that case why give himself away so early– and how could he know, so early in the game, that he's not getting a wolf lynched anyway?

EDIT:X'd since last post.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You are? If so, I think your revealment was a bit premature.

Don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind - but with a four-way tie between myself, two unknowns and a known wolf, what would you have done? If I have counted correctly, 11 out of 17 villagers have voted, and odds are some of the remaining at least may miss the DL. After the recent history of unlucky Day Ones, we can't afford to let this chance pass.

(Side-note to McCaber: Now I know how you felt back in Mnemo's game...)

[Lariren Shadow]

I'm...slightly weary of Pitch's reveal. While he probably was in fear of getting lynched if we still had the tie between the two votes Inzil would be gone. It just doesn't feel that right to me.

Blah, I'm up early and hungry.

Considering I was thinking of voting SPM toDay anyway I might. But I was also thinking of voting Hakon.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

He could be, but in that case why give himself away so early– and how could he know, so early in the game, that he's not getting a wolf lynched anyway?

True. That's why I say let's go with it for now and see what happens with SPM.

[Roa_Aoife]

If Pitch is lying he obviously dies tomorrow. I don't think he would be- it's too early. I do think he panicked and revealed prematurely, but it's not unheard of for seers to do so.

I think the suspicion of Hakon has been played up way too much. I also think that we should consider the fact the SPM created a un-merited but seemingly sound case to try to sway the village towards lynching Loslote. The people keeping on about these things are suspicious. Unfortunately, past Pitch's reveal, the votes will mean next to nothing, especially the votes for SPM.

[A Little Green]

++ SpM

Worth a try, certainly. I lean towards trusting Pitchie (it would make sense, given that he was under threat of getting lynched himself and all that) and even if SpM was innocent we have a baddie toMorrow. In any case this is about the strongest reason for voting someone I've ever had on Day 1.

Other than that, I'm in a bit of a hurry, but I'll say that Crayon (love the name!!), Wilwa and Hakon lean innocent and that I'm keeping an eye on Nog (as always).

Originally Posted by Nerwen

He looks fishy? And you roll your eyes?

Sure you're really blind?

Hehe, I wondered whether anyone would get the joke... Yeah, but like I said I'll try to be more active in the future.

[Lariren Shadow]

++SPM

If he is a wolf, that will validate Pitch.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I have skimmed through previous pages and things concerning SpM, then I returned rather to see if anybody posts or anything... anyway, I sort of reconsidered and I think, while we can read it, we can keep our thoughts for toMorrow... because we won't have time to discuss that now anyway, while the WWs will have time during the Night to discuss and prepare arguments, and if they'd know exactly what the questions are going to be, they can prepare better, so let's not give them ideas.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind - but with a four-way tie between myself, two unknowns and a known wolf, what would you have done? If I have counted correctly, 11 out of 17 villagers have voted, and odds are some of the remaining at least may miss the DL. After the recent history of unlucky Day Ones, we can't afford to let this chance pass.

(Side-note to McCaber: Now I know how you felt back in Mnemo's game...)

Nay, I think it was a clever thing to do. Really there were many people to vote and this could have ended very randomly, so good what you did.

EDIT: x-ed since Lari

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I think the suspicion of Hakon has been played up way too much. I also think that we should consider the fact the SPM created a un-merited but seemingly sound case to try to sway the village towards lynching Loslote. The people keeping on about these things are suspicious. Unfortunately, past Pitch's reveal, the votes will mean next to nothing, especially the votes for SPM.

I agree - with both. (Or with all, respectively.) Well, let's see what toMorrow brings, and what we can consider.