Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Morthoron]

++Smaug

Excellent and witty repartee with Bilbo. The old Draugr? Not much more than snarling. I'll take acerbic dialogue over growls any day.

[Eönwë]

++Smaug

Witty, Intelligent, powerful. Just a little on the arrogant side.

[Andsigil]

Well, it seems Fate has given me an omen. Just as I read the latest round, this quote appeared at the top of the webpage:

"My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords,
my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt,
my wings a hurricane, and my breath death."
Smaug

So, ++Smaug the Golden it is.

[Thinlómien]

++Smaug the Smug

I love his wit and his vanity. So much more personal and interesting than any other dragon by Tolkien (or probably by any other author either).

PS. I seem to belong to a minority since I find dragons nor awesome nor boring, but just plain "nice" or "ok"...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hate to pile on against old Drauglin
but Smaug's acerbic wit gives him the
edge.
+ + Smaug

[Nerwen]

++Smaug

Best dragon ever!

[Macalaure]

I can see where this is going.

++Draugluin

Just to spite you people.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Smaug-7
Drauglin-2

Old Man Willow vs. Master of Laketown

In their own ways both were survivors. The Master
not only efficiently ran his town, and was correct in
doubts about the wisdom of riling the status quo
by provoking Smaug, but then made out rather well
with the worm's treasure until the tragic end of this
statesman. Had he survived mayhap his descendants
would have been valued bureaucrats in Eriador and
Rhovannion.

As for Old Man Willow the question is how mobile
(and evil) were he and his followers. Could they have
skittered all the way to Fangorn, in say, 500 years?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Had he survived mayhap his descendants
would have been valued bureaucrats in Eriador and
Rhovannion.

Well, who knows whether his descendants actually were not there and living a peaceful or less peaceful life, whatever may have happened to the Master himself.

However, with all due respect to Old Man, I vote the old man.

++Master of Laketown

He was an interesting character. And only recently, I realised he was really the only known open supporter of democracy in Middle-Earth! Now come on, that was a great move from royalistic writer like the Prof. - I can well imagine him making a draft of the Master's character, thinking "He is a negative character... what character traits will I give to him? He will be greedy, cowardish, and... hmm... a democrate!"

"King Bard! King Bard!" they shouted; but the Master ground his chattering teeth.
"Girion was lord of Dale, not king of Esgaroth," he said. "In the Laketown we have always elected masters from among the old and wise..."

The impersonation of all evil... fantastic!

[Morthoron]

++Old Man Willow

The Master of Laketown was a conniving and venal bureaucrat (most likely a proto-Republican). There is nothing likeable or endearing in a thieving politician (and really, haven't we had enough of those in our governments currently?).

Old Man Willow, on the other hand, is wonderfully cranky and curmudgeonly, and would quote George Bernard Shaw if he could speak.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Master of Laketown was a conniving and venal bureaucrat (most likely a proto-Republican). There is nothing likeable or endearing in a thieving politician (and really, haven't we had enough of those in our governments currently?).

Well, but Morth, that's just what is so great about him! He was the primeval politician, the first one, uncorrupted yet by the centuries of politicians existing before him... he was the first, "virgin politician", and it was all up to him, how he chooses to manifest his corrupted ways! I mean to say, there was no set thing for him what should a corrupt politician look like, and he managed to do it all by himself! Isn't it great?

[Thinlómien]

++Old Man Willow

I couldn't vote the Master of Laketown for personal reasons, suffice to say that his youngest son was a jerk.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A difficult choice, and surprisingly, both in
some ways are the most "sympathetic" of
the rogues in this gallery. Old Man Willow
and his chums have been harassed, attacked,
and destroyed for centuries with their patrimony
drastically reduced- more then any by relatives
of the very people going through his forest remnant.

And The Master (related to Dr. Who's
old nemesis? ) while he was the teensiest bit corrupt,
did a good job seeing to the economic and political
health of Laketown (including solid Laketown/elf relations).

So since I'm in a state that is going increasingly blue
I think I'll go for the candidate who (with all his flaws)
is more attuned to vox populi .

+ + The Master Of Laketown

[Groin Redbeard]

++The Master of Laketown

Old Man Willow just doesn't have enough substance. The Master of Laketown actually talks!

P.S. Why was The Master of Laketown (we have got to abbreviate that name) put in the evil category? Although he was conniving and corrupt, I never considered him to be evil. Speaking of evil, why isn't Thranduil on the list?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

P.S. Why was The Master of Laketown (we have got to abbreviate that name) put in the evil category??

Well, aside from being a coward, he was a manipulative thief, who stole gold meant for aiding the widows and fatherless shildren of Laketown. But as with all such villains in Middle-earth, Tolkien has him starve to death alone in the wilderness. I am sure he would have a place on the board of Haliburton if he lived today.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Speaking of evil, why isn't Thranduil on the list?

One might as well ask why Thorin isn't listed among villains; after all, it was due to his stupid greed that Laketown was destroyed and many people died needlessly. In addition, he nearly caused a war between Dwarves and Elves and Men. Thranduil? he imprisoned the dwarves for trespassing and stirring up the deadly spiders (as was his kingly right), but he didn't abuse them, and he also benvolently aided Bard and the people of Laketown when they most needed it. I don't get your point.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, aside from being a coward, he was a manipulative thief, who stole gold meant for aiding the widows and fatherless shildren of Laketown. But as with all such villains in Middle-earth, Tolkien has him starve to death alone in the wilderness. I am sure he would have a place on the board of Haliburton if he lived today.

Strange... I'd always pictured him more as an ACORN director.

++Master of Laketown for being a slimy, skullduggering poltroon.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

I would consider Feanor a villain. Nothing can excuse, or atone for, the Kinslaying.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Other debatable villains:
Feanor (probably not)
Caranthir and Curunir (probably)
Thingol (probably not...but)
Saeros (very probably)

Saeros is definitely a negative character, but not sure if I would call him a villain, poor one, he is the most disgusting character ever.
Caranthir and... Curufin, you probably mean? But it's Celegorm and Curufin; Caranthir is the third one. At least the two of them are definitely villains, Caranthir is quite nice (he helps the Men after they are decimated by the Orcs... even though late).

But hey, I would not really make such a trouble out of that. I would not stretch it: we have some list and I suggest we stick to it, even now it's quite enough of them.

And certainly, at least this far, we have been sticking to villains (more or less, let's say the Master of Laketown being on the border, but being still there). With those listed above, we'd be somewhat crossing the border... because then what about Denethor etc...

[Aganzir]

Hey Fëanor and his sons are far from evil! ♥

++ Old Man Willow

I've disliked the Master of Laketown even before the RPG that featured his jerk son, whereas the Old Forest is one of my favourite places in Middle-earth. Old Man Willow is a lovely character, and I even managed to include him in the werewolf game I modded.

The atmosphere when he traps the hobbits is ever so wonderful.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Legate

Sa
Caranthir and... Curufin, you probably mean? But it's Celegorm and Curufin; Caranthir is the third one. At least the two of them are definitely villains, Caranthir is quite nice (he helps the Men after they are decimated by the Orcs... even though late).

Yep. You're quite correct.

Voting at present, 3-3 (but MoL wins so far on tiebreaker).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One might as well ask why Thorin isn't listed among villains; after all, it was due to his stupid greed that Laketown was destroyed and many people died needlessly. In addition, he nearly caused a war between Dwarves and Elves and Men.

Typical talk from an elf fan. I have a much different picture on Thranduil, but that is a different topic for another time.

Thranduil? he imprisoned the dwarves for trespassing and stirring up the deadly spiders (as was his kingly right)...

Kingly right? Mule fritters! You forget that Thorin was also a King!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Typical talk from an elf fan. I have a much different picture on Thranduil, but that is a different topic for another time.

Kingly right? Mule fritters! You forget that Thorin was also a King!

King? Of what? Actually, Thorin would have been barbequed Naugrim-bites(tm) if it hadn't been for Bard of Dale, Dain of the Iron Hills and Thranduil of Mirkwood (yes, Thranduil, my confused dwarvish dupe). Thorin was literally given his throne back by the blood of Men, Elves, and Dwarves (like Dain's folk, who were not homeless vagrants like Thorin).

As far as your take on Thranduil, your obvious dorf-bias casts a pall over your short-sighted sensibilities. I suggest you reread the book and get back to me when you can come up with a reasonable argument.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Master Of Laketown-3
Old Man Willow-3

MoL wins on tiebreaker.

Next: Maeglin vs. The Witch King

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++The WK

With no question. Okay, I did not want to say it when we were voting about Eöl not to lose support of those who liked his son, but not him, but let's face it: he is as stupid as his father! Actually, he reminds me of teenage Anakin Skywalker...

Whereas WK is so charming, so clever (sometimes), he is a Nazgul (that's the main point. He is cool!), and what more, he is a fallen Númenorean lord!

And he is not afraid of entering the River (Bruinen).

And he fought Glorfindel (and Gandalf (and Éowyn, of course) ).

Oh, and he is the lord of Minas Morgul! Now come on, one of the coolest cities in Middle-Earth? (Forget the weird, even though not that bad by itself, portrayal of it in the movies... I just don't imagine the city like that.)

And, he called the Barrow-Wights to dwell in the Barrow-Downs in the first place! Now come on, isn't that a reason by itself to vote him?

[Morthoron]

Funny thing, I would vote for Eol, but I wouldn't vote for Maeglin. At least Eol showed some testicular fortitude in going to Gondolin to get his family back; Maeglin, however, was whiney and weak, and was cowed by Morgoth when Elves such as Fingolfin and Maedhros were not.

++The WiKi

[Andsigil]

Dante reserved the Second Round of the Ninth Circle of Hell (Antenor) especially for traitors to political entities, such as party, city, or country. Maeglin deserves to be boiled in pitch in some particularly awful spot in Mandos's Halls for betraying Gondolin to Morgoth.

++Witch King because I despise him less.

[Aganzir]

++Maeglin

I suppose I've always had a liking for proud losers.

[Thinlómien]

++Maeglin

He's cool.
He's a charming, proud bad boy.

He's not a simple villain or hero.

I pity him.

(And besides, his name is nice and it sounds a bit like the name of someone really cool... )

As for the W-K, his doings in Angmar are cool, the Nazgûl are cool and it would be interesting to know how they were before they became evil (I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic), but somehow, I don't know, he's just pretty lame. I just don't find him very interesting. (The Nazgûl lose 90% of their scariness after FotR anyway.)

In short, if you put me to choose between an interesting, tragic half-villain and a villain who's simply a villain (or maybe was less so in some distant past of which we're told nothing), my choice is clear.


edit: xed and agreed with Agan

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

++Witch King because I despise him less.

My sentiments exactly! Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Besides, The Witch King makes up some of the most interesting parts of Middle-earth history ever. The rise of Angmar and the fall of the Northern Kingdom is amazing to read!

++Witch King

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Lommy

(I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic)

I heard that!

[Macalaure]

Maeglin is not a simple villain, but merely a poor little boy whose cruel cousin would not marry him because of some feigned "incest" reason.
She would belong in here!

The Witch King, however, is the Witch King. The Witch King! He's the ruddy Witch King people!

The! Witch! King!

++WitchKing


(-- nasty little hobbitses witch nasty little magic swords)

[Durelin]

++The Witch King/Lord of Angmar/Captain of Despair/etc.

Why? Besides the obvious...

1. Because he has so many awesome names/titles for a reason.
2. He had to be killed by a woman (yeah yeah, had something to do with some silly hobbit and his silly Westernesse blade or whatever, too (right?), but meh).
3. He is the only being I truly have reason to be jealous of, as my love is obsessed with the guy.

[skip spence]

I love to pile it on the ungrateful son, Maeglin. Dante's got it right, there's nothing worse than a filthy traitor.

++The Witch King

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I love to pile it on the ungrateful son, Maeglin. Dante's got it right, there's nothing worse than a filthy traitor.

And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And who says WK didn't betray anyone when he became a ringwraith?

He better would! Otherwise, he does not deserve as much of my vote.

Somebody said here WK is not as great as Nazgul - true, Khamul is for example far better and far more fascinating! He is the coolest, actually, one among the coolest folks in M-E. (Hey, now I just thought, where is Gothmog? I don't mean the balrog... although that could be as well... but the other one, Lieutenant of Morgul... anyway...)

But Maeglin is boring!!!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But Maeglin is boring!!!

Oh, tsk tsk, you're still holding a grudge because your wife had an affair with him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh, tsk tsk, you're still holding a grudge because your wife had an affair with him.

Yes. And I don't understand how that was possible, because Maeglin is boring.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While Maeglin was especially icky, betraying the
"jewel in the crown" elf city to rule over the remnants
of Gondolin with a forced marriage a la Ar-Pharazon/Miriel,
first cousin's marriage is not only fairly common with
royalty (and in Appalachia? ) but I don't think it is
technically incest.
And he is a free agent throughout while tWKoA
is more then not a tool (albeit apparently a willing one,
and in Angmar pretty much a local free agent), so

+ + Maeglin

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

As for the W-K, his doings in Angmar are cool, the Nazgûl are cool and it would be interesting to know how they were before they became evil (I've always wanted to do an RPG on that topic), but somehow, I don't know, he's just pretty lame. I just don't find him very interesting. (The Nazgûl lose 90% of their scariness after FotR anyway.)

Here I must agree with Lommy wholeheartedly.

And then just think about the fact that the Nazgûl were the scariest and most interesting in the FotR but they were also just incompetent losers who couldn't even win a party of a ranger and four hobbits in the middle of nowhere!

So not are they only a bit lame as characters but they are ones Tolkien flip-flopped to no limit. So what does it tell one? They were not actual dramatic characters or persons but just filled a role in the storyline, puppets of the plot and nothing more.

Although I agree with many that it would have been interesting to learn more about their past deeds especially as human kings. But that wish only betrays the problem: they are not full-grown characters.

So therefore:

++ Maeglin

(Who sure is a character!)

And also because of trying to make this a contest and not just a walk-through for the WK.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And then just think about the fact that the Nazgûl were the scariest and most interesting in the FotR but they were also just incompetent losers who couldn't even win a party of a ranger and four hobbits in the middle of nowhere!

Well if you want to look at it like that than Maeglin is an egotistical brat who wants what he can't have and breaks so it that nobody can have it. Hmph

The Nazgul as a whole might lose their scariness after tFotR, but certainly not the Witch King. His evil personality is great before and after tFotR. Besides, I think that we can all agree that the Nazgul, for that short period, were terrifying and spectacularly portrayed. The question is: how much did it impress you. For me it was a lot, therefore The Witch King gets my vote.