Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am going to correct my statements from above a bit - he is back and he is somewhat annoying. But okay, whatever. My decision now is more like, this is about the good way, phantom has some votes, so he can be a rep, why not, as long as there are several others to balance him - in Czech we have the proverb "the wolf had its meal but the goat remained whole", which is the optimal state of things. I am probably really not voting him, and I think the votes he has now are about okay amount.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ha ha, yes, the first quote I thought of without prompting and decided to use it, but once I started typing I recalled that you had been heavy with SW quotes last time and so I resolved to use a couple more just because of that. I wondered if you'd be amused or if you'd be angry that I'd stolen your show.

No worry. It was amusing, the only downside was that I couldn't use them, but I can live with it.

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie and Foley

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign.

You know better than this, Boro. To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day. And also, it fed in nicely to the underlying motive which was simply to create discussion and get the ball rolling.

And your whole power speech is bunk as well, since you know good and well what sort of chap I truly am when it comes to these sorts of things. I'm in this to win. Desire for acclaim or power has never clouded my judgement when there was an actual decision to be made.

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day.

Erm.. understanding? Could you elaborate, please: how does it show understanding to make a rep vote in the first few posts of the Day, before anything has been said and before you can have any legitimate opinions on anyone's guilt/innocence (unless you really can't be around later, which doesn't seem to have been the case with either Sally or Lottie)?

[Inziladun]

Very pressed for time, but a few quick things:

Originally Posted by Folwren

I don't trust Phantoblin. I think he's a sneaky liar. I know that some stuff he said was certainly in jest, but if he really wants EVERYBODY to vote for him, how is he going to keep his promise of not voting to kill any of his supporters? And what if only one or two people don't vote for him? Are they automatically guilty? Stuff and nonsense.

I don't know about a 'sneaky liar', but the mere fact of being the phantom merits distrust for him.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign. I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none. On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

This is pretty sensible. Boro for rep? Hmm.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

About lynching phantom, I thought it was not meant seriously - I see no reason for lynching him. If you call it "most appealing and attractive offer", speak for yourself. If we don't want somebody for a representative, it does not mean we have to lynch him: things are not just black and white like that. Personally, I have this far no reason to do anything against tp, because all he has shown this far was hunger for power, which is absolutely normal for him whatever he is. Once he starts to become suspicious in some way, then I may start thinking of lynching him.

This is a good point as well. I don't really think tp should be lynched just for his actics, which certainly have an ulterior motive. Whether that motive is evil or good though is the unknown. I just don't want him, or anyone, having a disproportionate slice of power.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

I didn't suggest not voting as a practice, but I find it preferable to making a random one without examining as many people as possible. And I also said anyone not voting should be held accountable and made to explain.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

I'd be inclined to believe that Lommy knows that no one knows the others' alignment as yet. She was probably referring to Sally and Lottie rep-voting before anything had happened ie. when they had even no inkling as to what your role could be

Originally Posted by Folwren

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that.

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right? Not to mention, most of the people throwing suspicion around right now are doing so based upon the early voting and reactions to it! If everyone followed your advice (and not voted), we'd be back at square one as far as suspicions!

So, you want people to wait and not do anything until they have a hunch, but how can anyone get a hunch if no one has done anything yet? Have I explained properly where I'm coming from here?

On Day 1 in particular, some people have to just take a flying leap and do something! And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him. Not to mention the fact that the SoE wish to control the vote, and so it's completely possible that they will look like the best candidates if you wait around!! Meaning that your best chance of not voting for a SoE is to vote completely on a random whim and let the simple percentages dictate if you're right or not!

(x-post with a few- Greenie, your last post I basically address in this post, the "understanding" being that perhaps Sally and Lottie know that maybe they should just take a leap)

[wilwarin538]

Ok, so I *was* reading everything, but then I started to space out and began skimming a bit so that I could post before I get too distracted (those videos didn't help). But I think I got the basic idea of what's going on.

This is my first representative game, and it's very possible that my brain isn't totally understanding it, but from what I can see the best way to do it would be for us to not give anyone more than 2 votes, right? Cause once they have 2 votes they're a representative, and if they get more than they start gaining more power. Well I don't like the idea of just a couple people having a lot of power (and maybe a couple amoung them having even more). I'd rather have half the people have all the same amount of power. That gives us more stuff to analyse, and makes it harder for the SoE to get too much power (unless, like all 4 of them get voted as representative, but at least if they don't have more pull than the other reps it wouldn't be so bad). Did that make any sense?

Anyway, my point. Phantom is a rep now, nobody else vote for him. These caves are small enough already, I'd rather not have his ego take up even more room.

So then for the rest of this half of the Day, once someone has 2 votes nobody else should vote for them, that way about half the (what do you call a group of Orcs? A clan of orcs? A gaggle of orcs? A grunt of orcs?), uhm, half the 'village' will be representatives, and it will make the voting process much more interesting, rather than have like 5 people with various amounts of power, that makes me uneasy. Does that seem fair, or am I missing something (like I said, never played a rep game before).

I'm going to go eat something to kick start my brain back up and I'll come back when I'm in better control of my attention span. *sees a butterfly, chases after it*

*runs back for a second* Oh, and this:

Originally Posted by Boro

All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

I might vote Boro as rep just for saying this.

x'ed with this whole page

[Nogrod]

Back and reading... just thought that this is important enough to say right now in plain terms.

We need a lot of representatives: not one, not two or three!

I'd almost venture as far as to say the more we have the better. The representatives need to make the decisions for lynching people and if we have only a few there's little to read. So let's not get carried away with this "who votes for who" as a representative, but how do we get enough reps for us to read later on.

And remember, many wolves might also wish to stay out of the fray and not want to get elected as the reps will receive the toughest scrutiny on D2.

Just saying.

[Nogrod]

Done reading...

Hehe. I can see Wilwa making basically the exact same point I did. And I like her suggestion of making a deal we stop voting someone on two votes to ensure we have enough representatives.

Let's also pick some of those who do not seem to wish to become one.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Not to mention the fact that the SoE wish to control the vote, and so it's completely possible that they will look like the best candidates if you wait around!! Meaning that your best chance of not voting for a SoE is to vote completely on a random whim and let the simple percentages dictate if you're right or not!

I do think we'd like to see the SoE's as representatives at least at the early stages of the game - not so much so in the decisive Day when we either win or lose, naturally.

I don't remember how exactly the last representatives-game went (and have no time to go and check - someone with a lot of time in hands could actually do that), but I can predict that the representatives will be under the looking-glass on D2 and it will require some really odd things to happen if the next lynch is on someone who was not a representative toDay.

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role...

EDIT: Triple posting... hey, where are you when I have time? I'll be back in a while.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can predict that the representatives will be under the looking-glass on D2 and it will require some really odd things to happen if the next lynch is on someone who was not a representative toDay.

Ha! Excellent way to make people excited about becoming a rep! "Be a Rep - increase your odds of dying tomorrow!"

[the phantom]

My thinking, Nog, is that the SoE may as well steer the lynch, as people are just as likely to suspect them if they don't (the whole bluff/double-bluff thing). I mean, why not vote each other as rep a good bit? It'd give them more lynch control, and they wouldn't necessarily be caught at it as many would pass it off as "too obvious".

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role...

I see your point. I just put it out because I think that's how I would behave were I an opponent to the village. I wanted to give people my perspective on the candidates. I'm very ignorant, though, all in all, as to people's behavior.

Ex-posted with the most hightly esteemed Phantom.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right? Not to mention, most of the people throwing suspicion around right now are doing so based upon the early voting and reactions to it! If everyone followed your advice (and not voted), we'd be back at square one as far as suspicions!

So, you want people to wait and not do anything until they have a hunch, but how can anyone get a hunch if no one has done anything yet? Have I explained properly where I'm coming from here?

First thing: I don't like your cynicism, mister. Like, if our chances of succeeding in spotting an elf on Day 1 are slim, we shouldn't try at all, or what? Second thing: I did not advice anyone to not vote, I just want to advice everyone to vote with care! Voting is the only means we have of winning this game, and I'd prefer to see it used well. Third thing: surely you are not suggesting that the only thing we can read something from is a vote? One can get a leaning on people's alignments from a load of other things than their votes! I agree that Sally and Lottie did stir up the discussion, but their votes were still not reasonable.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

it will require some really odd things to happen if the next lynch is on someone who was not a representative toDay.

Well, that's interesting. Than perhaps the SoE will not want to be reps, maybe it'll bring too much attention to them, while non-reps can just glide on by. But then again of course they want to be reps, that gives them power, which the Elvies wants. So....my point? I think we need a good balance of out-spoken people, and quiet people to be reps. Especially quiet people, force them to talk since they'll have the extra obligation, that could limit the chance at having too many 'under the reindeers'.

I'm choosing to not talk about the Puddingtom to the extent that everyone else is, because Day 1s are always about him . I don't like Sallycakes and Lottiepop's votes, because they really seem like throwaways and should have gone to someone they atleast semi-trust, and they both showed up later, so they didn't *have* to vote early. But at the same time it didn't surprise me, cause they enjoy doing crazy things (they will not be receiving rep votes from me though, I don't want them just tossing their precious lynch votes around like jelly beans). I hearts Lommy's first post, and I feel quite good about Legate, Boro and Nog at the moment.

I need to get *some* homework done while I'm still feeling attentive. Then I'll be back.

edit: x'ed with Greenie, who I also feel ok with, and added name-bolding

edit 2: the word 'throwaways' there isn't what I was trying to say, I meant more like random or thoughtless

[A Little Green]

Wilwa (she turned up at last, yay!) and Nog are making sense. Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Looks like it's my bedtime now, and since the deadline is 4 AM my time I won't wake up to vote then.. So I'll vote

++ Nerwen for rep

Because she is independent-minded and clever and if she's innocent she can do a lot of good in that position - and if she isn't, a Nerwelf is, in general, such a sly case that forcing her into the spotlight wouldn't be such a bad idea.

See you all on the second half of the Day! My participation will, in all probability, be quite crappy since I have an insanely busy day tomorrow, but I'll do my best.


EDIT: x-ed with Wilwa, who continues making sense.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

This is my first representative game, and it's very possible that my brain isn't totally understanding it, but from what I can see the best way to do it would be for us to not give anyone more than 2 votes, right? Cause once they have 2 votes they're a representative, and if they get more than they start gaining more power. Well I don't like the idea of just a couple people having a lot of power (and maybe a couple amoung them having even more). I'd rather have half the people have all the same amount of power. That gives us more stuff to analyse, and makes it harder for the SoE to get too much power (unless, like all 4 of them get voted as representative, but at least if they don't have more pull than the other reps it wouldn't be so bad). Did that make any sense?

Definitely good idea, except for one remark perhaps - at least if people are voting close to DL, there is the possibility of some crossposting, so somebody might actually get more votes in the mess. But I think generally the guideline is good, and unless the SoE misuse this mess completely to push in more power for somebody, then okay (but then again, even they could not do it unsuspiciously).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And remember, many wolves might also wish to stay out of the fray and not want to get elected as the reps will receive the toughest scrutiny on D2.

That may be actually true, especially given that it is their votes which are going to be analysed probably the most in the end. Although of course, it depends, and what phantom says, holds too:

Originally Posted by the phantom

My thinking, Nog, is that the SoE may as well steer the lynch, as people are just as likely to suspect them if they don't (the whole bluff/double-bluff thing). I mean, why not vote each other as rep a good bit? It'd give them more lynch control, and they wouldn't necessarily be caught at it as many would pass it off as "too obvious".

I think both are true to a certain extent. It would probably depend on the particular SoE, what they do. If there are some really strong personalities, they can go for the Rep even of their own initiative, with the hope to sway the votes. But then, flying under the radar is another well-known tactic. I think it is equally likely to meet both - we'd have to see from future actions of the SoE in the game.

EDIT: x-ed with Wilwa and Greenie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Eurgh? I assumed it was some inside US-Downers' joke, but it would have never occured to me that it would have something to do with me. ??? Okay, whatever...

[Mirandir]

So... I read like a page and a half. Now have to go to a meeting, class, and work. Am grumpy about this fact. Would like to know what's in it for me if vote phantom for rep. Read more at work and hopefully make legitimate contribution.

[the phantom]

As far as the Emperor's cat comment, I think it was a reference to me generally disliking cats and being allergic to them.

Originally Posted by Mira

Would like to know what's in it for me if vote phantom for rep.

Um... Let's see here... How about this? I shall purchase a Dallas Cowboys shirt and make a regular habit of going to Wild Wings during their games and loudly supporting them. Oh, and have I mentioned how pretty you are?

Greenie, in response to post #93-
No, no, by all means, give it an effort. My cynicism is not meant to discourage effort. Rather I'm saying it's not proper to be too upset with those that try something a bit different on the first day, as that is exactly the time to do so. It serves a purpose and may turn out being a better vote than many cast at the deadline.

By in large I'm saying that jumping on Sally and Lottie for their votes is far too easy, and ignoring the time in the game at which we stand and the various strategies that are viable at this stage. As someone else agreed with me earlier, it actually would not be a disaster to vote incorrectly at this point anyway, so it doesn't matter at all that the girls didn't have suspicions when they voted. Not to mention that suspicions will be weakest at this point anyway even were they allowed time to form. Also how would early suspicions form without early action provided by the votes that people are criticizing? No, votes aren't the only source of suspicion, but the other sources draw directly from votes (reactions to votes), and so votes can be said to be the ultimate source for nearly everything since much discussion is about votes. And then of course the late-day suspicions of "responsible" voters could well prove wrong (they're likely to in fact), so really what's the difference?

People are making far too big a deal about something that isn't bad at all when you place it correctly in context.

Anyway- I'm off for a bit.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So I think I should slowly start deciding about my vote for the representative. Let me see...

Boro - okay, but slightly weird with some of his opinions, I don't like his radicalism so much. If I want an opponent for the phantom, Lommy, who has already one vote, is enough, and Boro said something like that he wanted to vote her, which is fine by me
Celuien - not seen her around?
Foley - looks sensible, looks innocent, unless she is really so sly as to fly under the radar, but somehow I can't imagine it very easily. Not sure if she wants to be a Rep, if it came to that, she could get my vote, on the other hand, if she is somewhat busy or whatever, not sure if she will have as much insight as for me to vote her.
Glirdy - rather in the bacgkround. Actually, if somebody is under the radar, it is him. Might vote him for Rep just for the sake of that, to sort of bring him to the light, but then again, I'd prefer to vote somebody I trust more. Hmm... although... if I wanted to get more info about him... I'll think about it.
Greenie - actually seemed reasonable, around and seeing into things; might be one option
Izzy - very little to work with, though seemed sensible - might be one option if she shows more
Kath - nothing
Legate - that's me, that's me...
Lommy - see Boro. I probably will not vote her myself, as I think also that quite likely somebody else might vote her (like Boro) and she already has one vote.
Lottie - nope, she is a questionmark with the phantom-support and not seeming to be very much around anyway
Mira - nothing to work with this far
Nerwen - had posted some reasonable stuff in the beginning, has one vote already, might be an option, although I would probably prefer to read more from her before I'd do that
Nog - with his somewhat lessened participation not sure if I want to entrust him with the task, although on the other hand, with what he kept saying about the SoEs not wanting to become elected, it would be interesting if he was one of them and... okay, but probably not voting him. I get very little reading on him (while, again, that might also be a reason to vote him...)
Phantom - no. Said that before.
Rune - nothing particular against, but there is still the "buttering up" possibility. I don't feel like voting him much.
Sally - like Lottie, at most might be good for experiment, but not really wishing to vote her, especially if she is barely around.
Shasta - hmm... actually no real knowledge this far...
Steve - was he?
Vanilwa - had a few good points, might be one of the candidates
Zil - very random for voting, also see Glirdy.

So there would be several options - will think of them and see also what happens here, if anything new that will help me decide.

[Eönwë]

So, I was trying to read everything posted before I did, but it seems like I'm trying to climb to the top of an ever-growing mountain.

Originally Posted by the phantom

PS If you haven't voted me as your representative yet, please do so. Let's make history.

That would be like holding the record for the longest jump on the Moon- totally irrelevant. In fact, let's make it a Day 1 first and totally ignore phantom for a whole Day... well, actually, it's too late for that now that he's been voted in, but we should've.

Originally Posted by Loslote

TP does his own thing, not very influenced by manipulations - other than his promise not to vote for those he is representing, which doesn't bother me - as I am not a SoE, which lessens the chance of him voting for a true Orc. Since I don't have a chance to really look at people toDay, this is the least risky move I could make, in my mind.

Well, he only made that promise after you voted for him. Innocent mistake or a sneaky Elvish excuse for justifying voting phantom?

Originally Posted by Loslote

If tp was the Undecided Orc, he'd never have decided already. Surely you remember the game where he was Zeus, and killed his own Seer to even out the game? If he were the Undecided Orc, he would not decided instantly to align himself with the SoE, he'd choose whichever side was doing worst at the time when he had to choose.

If he acted (even remotely) consistently (other than attention-seeking, of course), he wouldn't be the phantom. Or of course, he could double bluff and just be hinting to the Sons of Elrond that he's the Undecided so that they don't kill him (yet). Or he could begin pretending to hint to them to save himself. Or... well... there's too many possibilities. We'll just have to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I must also say, there is one thing - if everybody unisono voted phantom, there will be lot less clues as well.

I agree with you about it being a bad idea, but you can't deny that it would be quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hearts

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And I don't like the fact that we have 48 hours each Day. It tends to make people (myself included of course) lazy instead of enthusiastic to use the extra time for finding wolves.

It's true. People seem to tend to lose steam about half way through the second half of the Day.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Right. Isn't it better to hold off and see what everyone has to say before making such an important decision? And actually, we aren't bound to voting anyone for rep, I don't think, even though it's a power we should exercise. If one doesn't have time to wait and examine everyone before voting though, I think not voting is the better option, as long as one has a very good excuse for not doing so.

Definitely. This makes Inzil look good. Though, on the other hand, few votes means that the Elves can monopolise the voting.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Wolves? They're our friends!

Have you ever spoken to an angry wolf?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Well there's half of the SoE right there. That's a clear hint. Clear.

It would be quite funny if they were just playing with us like that, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I agree with this, yet at the same time, it gives people more of a chance to vote thus eliminating the "I didn't have time to vote" excuse. If this ever happens, then we at least have something to look at.

Really? We just get 24 hours as usual. Of course, the "I didn't have time to read the thread so I won't comment at all" excuse is more likely to disappear.

Also, an interesting thing would be to see what happens if the Undecided becomes a Rep toDay... er... toOrcWakingCycle.

[Nogrod]

So how is it... tp has two votes (enough) and Lommy and Nerwen have one each?

I have nothing against those three ending up as representatives. Basically I have nothing against more or less ayone becoming a representative at this stage of the game: it would be interesting to learn more about everyone.

So for me it comes down to deciding whether to vote for someone I tend to trust a little, who is loud and enigmatic, who is very careful, who is hiding in the shadows...

I think you will take care enough loudmouths get to be elected so I'll start a new trend then.

++ Izzy for representative

She is very good and I always have hard times reading her. I'd like to see her contribute more, already at this stage of the game and not only when the numbers have dwindled.

See you on the latter half of the Day. Be sure to elect enough representatives!


X'd with Leg & Steve

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Um... Let's see here... How about this? I shall purchase a Dallas Cowboys shirt and make a regular habit of going to Wild Wings during their games and loudly supporting them. Oh, and have I mentioned how pretty you are?

Deal. And I'm holding you to that.

++phantom for rep

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Boro
...
If I want an opponent for the phantom, Lommy, who has already one vote, is enough

Let's not keep up this "representatives are tp and the force to counterbalance him" -stuff any more.

Let's see tp being one of the many representatives where his power is like one sixth or seventh of the total - and that's it. Please.


EDIT: x'd with Mira... *bangs head to the desk and cuts the power off from the computer frustrated*

[Folwren]

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not. Phantom, I'm curious - are you going to be at all flattered when you become a rep only because people voted for you without thinking?

I'm about to head home...won't have internet for a few hours...then I'll get it again briefly when I go to my folks' place for dinner and some evening stuff.

I am still leaning towards voting for Nerwen.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Wilwa (she turned up at last, yay!) and Nog are making sense. Also, whatever is the Emperor's cat? Legate?

Nothing to do with Legate, just having fun banter whilst throwing a couple sneaky punches. "Sauron's pet = Shelob" phantom said Palpatine was the "apple of the Great Eye," and "Emperor's cat" = I'm saying underneath that dark cloak phantom is mostly talk, and when it comes to cats you will see his weaknesses.

Think of it as a smear campaign paid for by the "Committee to not let phantom get elected. Treasurer: Shasta"

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So I think I should slowly start deciding about my vote for the representative. Let me see...

Boro - okay, but slightly weird with some of his opinions, I don't like his radicalism so much. If I want an opponent for the phantom, Lommy, who has already one vote, is enough, and Boro said something like that he wanted to vote her, which is fine by me

Go hard or go home. That's my motto.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to accomplish. Do you wish to keep me in the attractive lynch category without actually accusing, but rather make it look somehow like a logical option to lynch me? That's a typical elf trick. "You'll see I didn't actually suspect him, but he was the logical choice! Don't blame me!"

By your own admission you've never been lynched, so you would never be a real logical option, would you not agree? But the bigger question what am I trying to accomplish? The chance to be the first one to ever lynch the phantom is too enticing to resist. It's probably a fruitless and wasted endeavor completely, as apparently lynching you is impossible...but never the less, I do not back down from the impossible challenge.

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

Oh and parting shot, SoE = Sons of.....EEEEEEEEvil.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Steve

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I need a representative with a backbone and you two clearly have none.

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*

Originally Posted by Boromir88

On the plus side, to be led so easily like sheep by Big Boss suggests you don't want representative power, which leads to looking innocence. And it looks unintentional. You know the ones who are so modest with "No, no, no, I don't want that power" are the ones you have to be really careful about. They are so concerned with hiding their desire for power, they overcompensate with fake modesty. In sparknotes, yours and sally's unintentional "I don't have a spine, let me vote for someone who does" looks pretty innocent.

But really, phantom? If you wanted someone with some strength you could have gone with someone better. Phantom has a powerful facade behind his catchy slogans and elaborate 10,000 orc coins flashy signs, but in the end has no substance. All you have to do is stick him in with the Emperor's cat or a pretty butterfly and you will see his strength fail.

You know it is not absolute power which corrupts absolutely, it is not having absolute power and the desire for it which corrupts absolutely. And by continuing to deny phantom absolute power, we are only in the end making him more and more corrupt, to where he does more harm then good. But we won't recognize until he does have absolute power and we are powerless to stop him.

I don't like this at all. All this talk about power makes you seem like you're trying to sh

Originally Posted by Boromir88

These then are the options I see.

And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

Also, you speak as if the phantom is on his own team, and, while it is true that it might seem as such, in the end he will b helping one team to win. All this talk of "appeasing" him is pointless- we shouldn't have to bribe him onto our side. If he's an Elf, then he'll just be pretending to be, and if he's an orc then he already should be. And if it's power he wants, he should be the one that has to work to convince us of his innocence.

And finally, this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We can have a foil representative who will balance his power and thus leaving the real decision to the other representatives. I would have no issues being phantom's foil, to have an equally strong personality that balances phantom's alpha personality. (Although, right now I think phantom would fear Lommy's wrath more than mine, so if I decide on this option, I think I'm a gonna vote Lommy for rep).

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.


I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!


This, on the other hand I kind of agree with:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The pros, whatever power phantom gets is always nullified and the fears of those who don't trust him are dealt with. The negs, this puts the decision and the biggest power in the hands of the other representatives, and honestly...that might actually be worse than giving phantom absolute power!

I.e., we've been so focused on phantom, that we haven't even discussed other candidates or possible voting strategies, and by that I mean whether we want many 'weak' representatives (in which case we might as well just be a normal village), or a few 'powerful' representatives (which is much more risky because one of them could be a wolf, but could also be a strong force for good), or perhaps a mix (which is probably what will happen. But would that be good?)


Anyway, this is the post I'm on. Still reading.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Vote me for rep...I'll vote to lynch phantom. No lie.

See! Told you!


And no, I haven't managed to read the rest of the thread that quickly.





edit: fixed quote

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let's not keep up this "representatives are tp and the force to counterbalance him" -stuff any more.

Let's see tp being one of the many representatives where his power is like one sixth or seventh of the total - and that's it. Please.

This is the only time I said anything about "counterbalancing phantom", and that was only because I was using Boro's rhetorics. And that said, I believe I was the first one to speak about many representatives and the advantages of democracy, thank you, so no worries.

And although I am not happy with what just happened *glances at Mira*, three votes are nothing. Unless there are more mad people around, which I hope not. See also what I said above.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I am still leaning towards voting for Nerwen.

If it is so, then I might vote somebody else - I am fine with Nerwen getting two votes, and I could use my vote then for somebody else from my many options.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro and onwards

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mirandir

Deal. And I'm holding you to that.

++phantom for rep

*Sigh* you could be lynched for that and I'm not going to stop it, even if you're probably an innocent just bribed with Cowboys' presents.

I was going to say wilwa and Nogrod's same proposals was a good idea. We should still probably stick to that. Give 2 votes to someone, making person a rep, and stop it at that. Phantom will just have 3 now, no reason to trash the reasonable proposal.

[Eönwë]

Just to tell you where I am:

I'm going to need to go soon, but I'm considering choosing Legate or Zil as rep. Possibly Lommy, if she can convince me, but that would be a bit too much of an anti-phantom move, which is just as bad as the original pro-phantom move at the beginning of the Day.


Still reading...

[Eönwë]

Though I have to admit that it's Boro that turned voting Lommy into a purely anti-phantom move. So maybe he's trying to make us not vote too anti-phantom (seems the general consensus these days, which makes it a bit of a bangwaggon) and vote him instead, who he portrays as the second best anti-phantomer. Or maybe I'm just reading reading Boro all wrong. I don't know if he'd be that obvious. But if I'm not, I definitely don't like what he's doing by trying to manipulate the Day (maybe even more than the phantom).

In fact, because of him, the anti-phantom bandwaggon now almost seems worse to me than the pro-phantom bandwaggon at the beginning. Or maybe he's just trying to make it seem that way.



And if both Boro and phantom are wolves...



Edit: missed words

[Thinlómien]

Reading and writing at the same time, so my apologies if I'm repeating stuff... I just got a sudden inspiration to go to sleep soon.

Originally Posted by Rune

I am sure that it will surprise absolutely nobody that I will give Lommy my vote. (whether she likes it or not)

I do like it...

Originally Posted by Legate

I am actually surprised with the really strong reaction of Lommy's to the phantom-business, while I agree, it's a bit scary the way she reacts so strongly.

Hm? I don't think it was so strong.

Originally Posted by Glirdy

I was just quickly skimming things when this jumped out at me. Something about it makes me uneasy about Rune.

I think that's just a regular Rune attitude.

Originally Posted by Boro

To the lasses sally and Lottie. You two have basically surrendered whatever dignity you had left when you jumped at the vote phantom campaign.

Weee! Strict Old Boro lectures on young women!

Originally Posted by Boro

Negs, It would mean giving lots of power to Lommy, who's wrath if put in charge would scare me even more than phantom.

Am I really so scary? Seriously though, while I think lynching tp just for the sake of it would be fun, I don't think that's a wise course unless we actually have some suspicions of him being a wolf which at least I don't really have yet.

Originally Posted by Boro

Also, I wonder if she's got the confidence to follow through?

Somebody ought to put Dr Boro on a vacation. He is not himself.

Originally Posted by Greenie

a representative probably won't vote for the ones who elected him/her to power anyway, out of courtesy or just unconsciously, at least not unless there is really heavy evidence against one of the voters.

I think I did that last time. I think it's more about that people won't vote people who suspect them as reps.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Now, I think you [Lottie] go too far here. What you've got to remember is that the fact that he's [phantom's] trying really hard to establish some kind of cult around himself doesn't mean he merits it more than anyone else does. Oh, he's sharp and all that, but there are other sharp and independed-minded people around here too and I don't like how little credit they get just because they don't make such a show of themselves.

*loves her little sis*

Originally Posted by tp

Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me.

And you think they would really be so intimidated by you? *raises an eyebrow*

Originally Posted by Folwren

The only thing that I think would induce me or another innocent into attempting to become a representative would be to gain power and attention and to actually think we could help the village by our intuition.

Well I think an innocent could want to be a rep simply for the selfish reason of wanting to have their say in things.

Originally Posted by tp

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

I can come up with only one or two people in this game whom I would not trust to definitely show up and vote and be reasonable in their own way, so I don't get why anybody should vote you based on that. And while I agree no one knows anybody's alignment (are we really discussing this?!), you can make a better guess at somebody's alignment after 24 hours than when the game has just started.

Originally Posted by tp

What are you talking about? Lommy is like that all the time. Or at least she is any time I'm around. (There may be a connection there.)

Love you too, phantom!

Originally Posted by tp

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right?

I bet they are better than with totally random voting...

Originally Posted by tp

And in a game like this especially, as it's not completely a tragedy to accidentally vote for a SoE early anyway, as it would be instructive to see what he does with the power you give him.

Well, maybe not, but it doesn't make voting for fun any smarter.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

So then for the rest of this half of the Day, once someone has 2 votes nobody else should vote for them, that way about half the (what do you call a group of Orcs? A clan of orcs? A gaggle of orcs? A grunt of orcs?), uhm, half the 'village' will be representatives, and it will make the voting process much more interesting, rather than have like 5 people with various amounts of power, that makes me uneasy. Does that seem fair, or am I missing something (like I said, never played a rep game before).

I think it sounds good. Mostly we should have a fair number of reps (not just two or three) and they should preferably be quite well balanced in their voting power.

Originally Posted by Nog

Also I do disagree with the SoE's overpowering craving for power to "steer the lynch", especially early on. Unless they are really in trouble (and that probably doesn't even spell having one of them in trouble on D1), they have no wish to "steer the lynch" just for the sake of doing it. Well some personalities might wish to but, but they'd wish to do it whatever their role..

Yep, good point - actually (I might be contradicting myself here but who cares) it just occured to me that an attractive course of action for a SoE would probably be just to sit back and relax and not to get his hands bloody.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

"Hearts"? What are we, Elves? *Punches playfully in the face*

Eönwë, I totally... loath you for that comment! *hu... punches*

Originally Posted by Nog

EDIT: x'd with Mira... *bangs head to the desk and cuts the power off from the computer frustrated*

Those were my feelings too.

Legate - sort of annoys me in the innocent way
Glirdy - awfully quick to concentrate the talk on phantom, otherwise ok (easily distractable innocent or a wolf trying to steer the discussion?)
Folwren - kind of like the friendly but cut the crap attitude of hers
Nogrod - aww good ol' Nog's back! seems like his innocent self
Boro - my infamous bororadar is saying more innocent than guilty but I don't like his phantocentric attitude
Nerwen and Shasta - you two cuties can be in the same cathegory: I like your attitude and you are very scary ww players AND I haven't seen enough of you to form a picture of what's up
Greenie - it's scary how much we agree, I like her <3. Her vote is very good - maybe even too good?
Sally, Lottie and Mira - annoy me to an extent but I have no actual clear reasonable suspicions against them
Celuien and Kath - not present but of course we forgive Kath because she always does this *ugly orcish leering smile*
Zil, Eönwë and Izzy - can't read them yet
Rune - is either good or trying to buddy me up, which would be disturbing

Haha, this rep games might really be my cup of tea because it's always so much easier to say who's innocent than who's guilty. I think my rep vote will go to Foley or Greenie - I could also vote Leg or Nog but I know they will strive to influence the vote even as non-reps so I wouldn't be too sad even if they weren't elected.

Off to brush my teeth and then it will be decision time...


edit: xed with everything after Boro's #106

[Boromir88]

Mmm, I've got a bit of a rushed decision here, as 6 is when I'm going to be away the rest of the night. I'm going to vote my rep now then...

++Wilwa for rep

I like her proposal and for that should be rewarded.

There Legate, now you know I will not be making Lommy a rep and you've got a few choices.

To respond to some recent posts than I gotta depart.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

Yes, contest. And with no personal gain whatsoever.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You've hit the nail on the head. That was exactly what I was trying to do. But unfortunately bunches of people rushed in to negate it, and so the ploy has most definitely lost its effectiveness. Basically, I was wondering if any Sons of Elrond could be bullied out of fear into voting for me. Playing the odds, you know? "Phantom may gain a hail of votes, and he says he won't vote for his people, so if my buddies and I don't vote for him the liklihood of us being lynched is going to increase dramatically!"

Though that was a kind of clever way to stop so many people voting for you so soon, wasn't it?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

You can have some of this one *hands Boro a few scattered vertebrae*

How very thoughtful, and phantom insists orcs are all villainous?

And what about the other options? For example, not basing our Day around the phantom and actually trying to catch some elves. Isn't that what we're trying to do? It's much too early to be turning this into a power-contest, especially since all of us (save five) know nothing, and really have nothing to base anything on.

But today we are voting for representatives, not who we think are Elves. So, my focus has been finding the orc I want representing me and trying to stop the ones I don't want in as a rep, thus leading the inevitable phantom-centrism.

So this is basically a case of saying "See, I could be a good representative *hint hint*, but look, I'm voting Lommy for the same job, so it doesn't look like I'm advocating myself too much, and it looks like I'd rather have someone else in charge instead because I 'think' she might be better than me, though I'll still do the job if you rally want me." Or at least, that' what it would mean if you're sneakily trying to get voted for rep, though you could still be innocent and trying to gain power.

You're reading way too far in between the lines with that one. I meant it as a humorous, yet pretty honest statement. Phantom would probably be more frightened of Lommy than I could ever make him...and really the same goes for me! She isn't all sweet lil harmless penguin lover.

I know this post is totally focused on Boro's, but it just seemed wrong in so many ways!

That's how I like it too.

With regards to Kath, I've got a feeling she will not be making an appearance today. To the pits with you! Celuien will probably, she's usually pretty busy and quiet, but far less forgetful than Kath.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And if both Boro and phantom are wolves...

That's probably the scariest thing I ever heard this far, not to say it would be impossible - would mean seeing Boro's behavior in a totally different light - but I hope I am not as paranoid yet to start considering it too much...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hm? I don't think it was so strong.

I think it was - just look at the start of it! And the vocabulary! Not going to repeat it here, darling

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There Legate, now you know I will not be making Lommy a rep and you've got a few choices.

Great. Meditate about it, I will. (score!!!)

EDIT: x-ed with a Boro

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boro

I meant it as a humorous, yet pretty honest statement. Phantom would probably be more frightened of Lommy than I could ever make him...and really the same goes for me! She isn't all sweet lil harmless penguin lover.

For some reason, this makes me happy.

++Greenie Grenadine Little Orc for Representative

Simply because we seem to be on the same wavelength. I hope Folwren is elected for rep too, though.

Good night, see you tomorrow with some serious business!

[wilwarin538]

Before I do anything else I'm going to make a vote count.

I'm letting you know this so no one else starts one, cause I hate putting all the work into it, and then coming back to see one there.

[Eönwë]

Considering voting for rep:
Legate
Zil
Greenie

Also look quite good:
Foley
Lommy

THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION:
The Phantom

Will not vote:
Boro (I have no idea about his alignment, but I don't like his whole "I'll negate phantom" thing)


I'm not sure about other people yet.