Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter?

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

This is a bit like when all those paranoid parents were running around saying Rowling's a racist and there's evil witchcraft in the books and the Rowling fans came in full force and fought back. Major arguements with both sides convinced that they're right.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

Lewis' trilogy? Trilogy? What trilogy?

Or do you mean the Chronicles of Narnia? I'm sure they *are* similar to Tolkien, but then, the Narnia books have more allusions (literary and otherwise) than any other children's books I've ever read, so they're bound to be similar to a lot of things, deliberately. (No, allusion isn't copying. Let's set this straight before the argument flares up... <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

</p>

[Hannah 3]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

Chronicles of Narnia isn't a trilogy... *confused*
*Grins* My sister called it an allegory. (If you don't know what that, is, read 'little men' or look it up in a dictionary - I can't give a good definition <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) Allegory of the new testament. With Aslan = Jesus and Emperor over the sea = God, and the children disciplines. Or something like that. Which I doubt, but that might just be my ignorance...
(And allegory is also not copying. it's like... *Tries to think of a good example*... like George Orwell's Animal farm is an allegory of some war.)

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

The Chronicles of Narnia are allegorical, yes, but they aren't pure allegory. Purely allegorical books are ones where everything, or very nearly everything, intentionally links back to one concept. It's like a drawn-out metaphor, I guess. An example of 'pure' allegory would be Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress. Whereas the Chronicles of Narnia are only allegorical in parts - not every details links back to the Bible, deliberately or no.

</p>

[KayQy]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

I think sam is talking about some other Lewis novels, not Narnia, but I can't remember their title and I never read them myself, so I can't give my opinion there. And yeah, Narnia is definitely allegorical or metaphorical of the Bible. But don't let it scare you away. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[burrahobbit]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Samwise: Lewis'angels are called elder-sound familiar?<hr></blockquote>
This is among the most idiotic things I've ever read. So what if he called them elders? You may not be aware of this, but elder is a word in the english language. As in &quot;respect your elders.&quot; I noticed the similarity between the two words some time ago, but it really isn't anything more than that.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[burrahobbit]

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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/da...ing010326.htmlabcnews.go.com/sections/u...10326.html</a>

March 26 — The congregation of a church in suburban Pittsburgh gathered around a bonfire Sunday night to burn Harry Potter books, Disney videos, rock CDs and literature from other religions, purging their lives of things they felt stood between them and their faith.



&quot;Our purpose comes out of the Bible,&quot; the Rev. George Bender of the Harvest Assembly of God Church in Butler County. &quot;We read in the Bible how people, after they received Jesus Christ as their savior, took things out of their homes and burned them. They [the members of the congregation] received Christ and they willingly did this.&quot;
The church has a regular Sunday evening service, which does not include a bonfire. But this week the congregation wanted to do a little more, and 35 people brought books, CDs and tapes that they felt were not in keeping with their faith.

&quot;We did it in the open so that people would ask why,&quot; Bender said, adding that the church has not asked that any of the material they burned be banned from bookstores or libraries, and that even among the congregation there was no pressure to participate.

He pointed out that just one-third of the congregation brought things to burn. He said those who participated included a mix of new and longtime members of the church.

&quot;There's no such thing as a crusade to deal with other people's things. That's their business,&quot; he said. &quot;We believe in the First Amendment, the Second Amendment, and the First Commandment and Second Commandment.&quot;

Animated videos such as Pinnochio and Hercules were also among the items thrown in the fire, which also included Pearl Jam and Black Sabbath CDs, and pamphlets from Jehovah's Witnesses.


‘Message Is Clear’

The Harry Potter books, so popular with children and parents, have drawn fire from religious leaders before for their depiction of a boy who consorts with wizards and uses magic.

&quot;We believe that Harry Potter promotes sorcery, witchcraft-type things, the paranormal, things that are against God,&quot; Bender said. &quot;That is really bad.&quot;

A spokeswoman for Scholastic, the publisher of the books, said they are more about a child who feels powerless in the world understanding that he can take some control of his life. She said the message sent by burning books is more dangerous than any fable about sorcery could be.

&quot;I think burning books is shameful,&quot; Scholastic spokeswoman Judy Corman said. &quot;The message is very clear by inference. I think he's saying something very strong.&quot;



What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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Re: Re:Friends (btw ninny hammers and noodles is Sam's

I think that's just stupid. I'm sorry but burning books that are FICTIONAL! If they didn't like them then why buy them?

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=red, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> <a href=pub33.ezboard.com/bsarahshouse> ~*~Sarah~*~</a> [i]All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>

[KM Tinuviel]

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Book burning

Hitler also burned books in the name of purity and religion.

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re: That is stupid

No one should ever burn another persons book, it's absolutly WRONG your thinking I'm a hypocrite probably but -sure the sorcery can get a little creepy at times and if taken to seriously can lead to things that lead to witchcraft and all- why did'nt they burn LOTR books? Cause its got a wizard in them-if they did I would be sooooo ticked I mean this pastor hello wake up man(I mean the pastor)-they burned them because of the sorcery, not becuase Harry Potter was disobedient- okay I would'nt burn a book for any reason I just would'nt read them as much as I did-,the group probably did'nt think twice about one o the greatest thing God wants us to do,to OBEY him and those above us, as a matter of fact sorcery goes against God's commands so that could be counted as disobedience, Please dont think I'm preaching at you I'm just stating what I believe so just please dont hold it against me k? But I defiantly think that Burning books is absolutly WRONG.
Oh nother thing Harry Potter is aimed at kids-3 grade and older-and so these kids see Harry Potter doing stuff he should'nt so they Might think it's okay to do it.
Samwise Gamgee
Ps. I meant ELDAR not elder sorry bout that Burra.I trip over my feet and in the process I put them in my mouth so forgive that little mistake but I swear that Lewis had a trilogy, I forgot what it was but there was alot in common with LOTR-well from what my Mom tells me-,Oh what do you guys think of Dungeons and Dragons?-I dont play it as a matter of fact I'm against it, I just wanted to ask if you guys feel the same way-.Welcome to our fair forum KMT.

</p>

[KayQy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: That is stupid

OK, first off: Ever read Farhenheit 451? Now that's wrong. But this is not exactly the same thing. This seems more like a symbolic statement that they want to get rid of the things that keep them from God (in fact, I think they say that). Furthermore, please recall that this was completely voluntary. They're not trying to make anyone else's choice for them, they're just letting people know what their own choice is. Y'all're coming down on them like they're taking other people's books and burning them. Okay, I'm about to go into a sermon, so I'll just leave it there for here.

Re D&amp;D: I've never played the game, but I watched the cartoon, which isn't much different from any other fantasy cartoon. I think the problem people find with D&amp;D is that it can lead to other, darker things like Wicca or whatever, I don't know; and also that people get so caught up in it that it's their life. (Waitaminute! Anyone else seeing a disturbing parallel?!?<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[red]

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Lewis's Trilogy

Lewis did write a Trilogy. It is called Space Trilogy. They are &quot;Out of the Silent Planet&quot;, &quot;Perelandra&quot;, and &quot;That Hideous Strength&quot;. Samwise referred to Merlin who is a character in one of the books. I enjoyed these books very much. Just wanted to clear that up even though I am a few posts late! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

Aha! If those books are what I think they are (which they may not be), that was a case of Tolkien writing a story/book (can't think what, though) about time travel, and C S Lewis writing one about space travel. Some kind of collaboration, I guess, though not really. It's somewhere in Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien. I'll look it up later.

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Suldaledhel]

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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;seeing as we girls mature faster&quot;<hr></blockquote>
From experience of being with females older and of the same age of myself, I thoroughly believe this pnly applies to physical aspects. I know many girls that have the maturity of some 8-9 year old males I know. Not saying this aplies to all, or anyone here, just stating my opinion.
(I also apologize for being so late on this point <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;We believe that Harry Potter promotes sorcery, witchcraft-type things, the paranormal, things that are against God,&quot;<hr></blockquote>
I do believe that is the most ignorant statement I have heard in a many long years (the last being practically the same as this example). It is not the members of the church's place to decide what is against God if what they are condemning has nothing to do with their faith! (I can see the music and other prime examples of anti-christian sentiment, but its examples like this that give birth to thse feelings!) This is why I tend to avoid christians in general, those ignorant lot that automatically associate anything slighty pagan with evil and devilry. Maybe, just maybe if they would take the time to learn just a tiny bit, and then (but this is a longshot) praps then one might see that all this sorcery and witchraft isnt as bad as one thought. But once again Im ranting and blowing off steam... so now with that last kernel of wisdom <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I shall be off and on my way.

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

I am entering the fray simply to refute the idea that all Christians are mindless, ignorant, and hyper-conservative. I believe that you cannot judge a person as good, evil, or ignorant based on their beliefs. I have a great deal of respect for those who choose to live their spirituality, whether I agree that the God(s) or Goddess(es) they worship exist or not. I am a Christian, and I don't feel that I am ignorant or dismissive of other people's religions/spiritualities.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

I knew somelike this would come about, so I tried to phrase it, but phrasing is my lacking point. When I said ignorant, it was directed at those that automatically assume without any knowledge of that wich they are assuming to be true. Many of my best friends are Christian, and they are open minded indeed. I have nothing against Christians in general, just those that blindly assail those of other less understood faiths. Please I beg the forgiveness of anyone that feels offended by my above comments, for it was not (most likely) directed at anyone that I know of on this board. Keep in mind I myself was born and raised a Catholic... and I am not readily known to insult myself and my childhood friends.

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

[The X Phial]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Lewis's Trilogy

No offence taken, at least not by me! I just felt the need to defend my own status as an intelligent person in a religon not known for its tolerance. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I agree with you that there are some very ignorant religous people out there who use their beliefs to hurt and exclude others. They are as repugnant to me as they are to you, believe me! Anyway, don't worry about it and no one should have to feel afraid to post their opinions (as long as they are not directly hurtful to others).

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: That is stupid

I was more amused than angered at the burning of Harry Potter. Even more I was amazed that there was also the burning of CDs by Black Sabbath. Now what in the world was some member of this congregation doing with Black Sabbath albums? There's something to conjure.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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Re: That is stupid

I have to agree with Aldaron. Those fundamentalists sure are sumthin else.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 261</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: That is stupid

yeah burning books and cds just sucks. many religions are/have been intolerant towards other religions/beliefs/opinions. there have even been wars just because of RELIGION!
can't there be enough tolerance so that everyone could get along with each other? can't a muslim live in peace with a christian?
well maybe this is a bit out of the topic but i just had to say that. thank you.

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: This is getting over my short curly head

-I HAD to do that above comment- Hey no offense taken by me Sul, I mean I barley understood what you and x were gong on about I had to re-read the posts so I'm pretty numbskulled nothing gets into it and stays there.That really ticks me off,&quot;we dont want anything that hinders our belifs&quot;fer duhhh I mean they did'nt have to go to the extrime, just dont buy the stupid things-why are we talking about this?Why dont we go back to some spice-?Oh you know D&amp;D players have been known to go off into the blue-on some adventure as a halfling or half orc or elf or dwarf or wizard or real orc or a dunadane or a southener or something else-and never return?That is just plain creepy,no wait scary any more opinions on the role playing game known as D&amp;D?
Sam
Ps.X can I get your e-mail, mines sandhill@quixnet.net It might be nice to correspond with a fellow christian.Balin it's to bad that Muslims cant get along with Christians,I mean they burn churches, capture children,kill their parents,and then try to force the children into muslam and if they refuse they throw them on coals to burn,but I'm glad that these children who have died died for Jesus-well I mean not jumping up or down,but I'm PROUD they stood up for their faiths.- Hey Balin tolerance can go to far such as with witchcraft you know in the bible it says not to tolerate witches,mediums or anybody who do anything with spirits,spells,little diagram thingies,and stuff like that.*waiting for the cutting words*

</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: This is getting over my short curly head

the part of your post that was about the muslims and taking away the children reminded me of the christians in australia. they also took away the children of the aboriginies and forced them into christianity.
well to tell the truth im not a friend of religion and especially the catholic church. i think that everyone can have his own beliefs and his own views and can believe in anything he/she wants, but i don't think that you need a church who tells you what to believe.
i mean there have been wars just because some people in high positions(on many sides) said that people who believed in other stuff were enemies and had to be killed.
i don't have words for something like that so i'd better shut up.

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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Re: This is getting over my short curly head

They did that in the Americas too. And probably Africa and Asia.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 264</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: This is getting over my short curly head

possible
kill all the white men!
bad joke, actually...

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re:Okay this is WAY over my short curly head

I did'nt say that deeds done by Christians are always good,but I guess that more people would've died in Ethiopia if world wide missions or other christian run missons had'nt given food,water and stuff like that to the people of Ethiopia,so it can go either way:sometimes Christians can go over board-I mean they could've visted the aborigeny clans instead of kidnapping their kids if they had gone for the older people then there would've been a bigger reformation of the aborigenies-but with out the help of the christian missions the Ethiopians would have died.
Anybody have any ideas about D&amp;D or the Harry Potter issue-we can continue with the religious argument if you want I dont care-. sam

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Re:Okay this is WAY over my short curly head

&quot;there would've been a bigger reformation of the aborigenies&quot;

The word &quot;reformation&quot; just pushed my Major Argument button.

The Australian Aborigines (and the people of the Torres Strait Islands) have lived in Australia for at least 40 000 years on their own and lived perfectly well. Suddenly, a bunch of Europeans come along and decide to take over, so there can be somewhere to put petty criminals.
Along with the Europeans came diseases the Aborigines had never encountered and were thus not immune to, and social problems such as excessive alcohol drinking.
The Aborigines never needed &quot;reformation&quot; - it's the white Australians who had problems.

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: This is getting over my short curly head

*waiting for the cutting words* ? They come!! <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Balin it's to bad that Muslims cant get along with Christians,I mean they burn churches, capture children,kill their parents,and then try to force the children into muslam and if they refuse they throw them on coals to burn<hr></blockquote>
Excuse me? Would you STOP talking like that!! I go to a multi-cultural school and my best friends are hindu, jain (similar to hindu but not as well known) and atheist. I'm jewish. And we could not care less. If only people like you were not quite so proud of their religion, this world would be a much better place!! Even Chrisyians don't agree with each other. Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other in england since ages ago. Isrel vs Palestine. Jewish vs everything else. Catholic vs Muslim, Muslim vs Hindu. I am sick of it. The 'standing up for their faith' that you are so proud of, Samwise, has killed thousands of people.

I dont want to speak of christians in such a generality as some others did. I don't believe that's right. I will say that the very religious, orthodox, God-will-burn-you-in-the-fires-of-hell atitude is NOT a good one. I mean, there are contradictions everyehere you turn.
I belive in no religion; in a God who does not care what I do and would never punish anyone, in reincarnation and quite a lot of other stuff. A mixture of religions. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> But I'm jewish, still...
I'm tired of this. Tired of arguing with people who dont listen. So my final note is: Read Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch, a very good, sensible book that I highly recommend, and I hope you'll take notice of that, though the kkk didn't. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Especialy you, sam, and I'm hoping you won't let your mum say it's evil or whatever.

Oh, and well done Zoe... *applause* I fully agree with that...

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

CRIMANALS. Hello WAKE UP!!!!!!Did you know that the christians came after the people with the drinking problems and such and guess what they did?THEY CONFORMED THE CRIMANALS then they moved on to the Aborigenies,but Like I said not everything that the christians did was right in the Salem witch trials the judges put allot of people to death because of differences and they were CHRISTIANS,Christians make mistakes just like everyone else and some of them dont deserve to be remembered,But you know what stopped the colleseum?A christian Monk -notice the word CHRISTIAN-the colleseum was a blood bath until that Monk ran out in the middle of the ring and got run through with a sword,but his life stopped the colleseum and MORE DEATHS,so Hannah dont say that the world would be better off with out the christians cause it would'nt.

Samwise of the shire
PS someone had better throw two buckets of water on my short curly head ok?

</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 5</TD><TD><img src=http://www.chickpages.com/fanland/mischiefsdollys/images/doll33a.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Sam-*throws two buckets of water on your curly head*
Okay. This argument has gone way too far. We each have our own opinions so nobody will ver win! I dont want to still be arguing when I'm old and wrinkled!

<TABLE STYLE="filter:glow(color=red, strength=glow)"> <TR><TD><center> <a href=pub33.ezboard.com/bsarahshouse> ~*~Sarah~*~</a> [i]All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wonder are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes, a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.
-Strider, The Lord of the Rings</TABLE> </p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 307</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Just out of curiosity, when was this Samwise? Couldnt have been during the reign of Emperor Nero, during the time of the first great persecutions. And I dont remember hearing any stories like this under the reign of Diocletian either. I was simply wondering if you could provide a date Samwise, or if not, maybe the ruling figure ofr some clarifications.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ." </p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 265</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Sam, this goes to you.
you said that the christians conformed the aboriginies after conforming the criminlas. well, WHY did christians always have to conform people????? i don't see the point in forcing a religoin on a whole civilization. but not only the christians did it, also the muslims and well there are certainly other religions, but what i want to say is that religion has been and is the reason for many many wars all over the world.
i think that a world without religion would SOMETIMES be better. and i think that people are way too emotional when they are discussing religion. just take this thread in the forum....




Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Just to help back up Sam a bit, the Christians of that time period (or a bit earlier, I dont really know when Australia was being settled) fully believed that if you were not a baptized Christian, you would go straight to hell when you died. This is why they were so &quot;persistent&quot; if you will about converting others, even if this meant by the sword. Now of course I dont agree with this, but it is *somewhat* explainable given that they truly believed this, and thus their fervid faith somewhat blinded their sense of morals(?) Same with the puritans and such, they fully believed they were helping the people in the long run.

They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 295</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Dangerous ground.

You're treading dangerous ground so I suggest everyone be highly tactful and accurate when relating events. A lot of people are oversensitive about their religion.
But I haven't thrown in my two penny bit yet. The Christians have had a long history of good as well as evil. The mistake the western world made was assuming that all non Christians were barbarians, or heathen. That's more or less the excuse for colonization, spl of Africa.
As for Islam, it is a tolerant and humane religion. The few that you refer to are fanatics. And they're present in every religion. The church in England that burnt HP books is a good example. You cannot generaliza the netire people of a religion. Because, beyond a point, your religion doesn't make you who you are. You make yourself who you are.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Hannah 3]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 51</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Samwise, you misquoted me. *Glares* I said, 'only people like you were not quite so proud of their religion, this world would be a much better place!!' and I stick to it.
The problem is, Sam, you're so sure you're right. They were all sure that they were doing it for the best. Hitler probably believed that he was helping his country by killing several million people. So I can't argue with that. I can only be sorry for you with your limited views, your certanity that the good people were Christians, even though you contradict yourself.
Can't you even SEE that you're contradicting yourself?! 'Christians make mistakes' - and then list how nevertheless all the good people were Christian. <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

This conversation is over, as far as I'm concerned. I know I said that last time, but I mean it now. I can't convince yoyu and I know it. You, like all the others, think you're right. I leave it to Zoe, and just about everyone else, to finish.

((By the way - Lorien Wanderer - Judaism did not make me me. But I'm increasingly more and more convinced that a twisted idea of a 'loving' God or a strange idea of Christianity, did make quite a lot of people who they are. It depends on how big a part faith and religion had in your upbringing.))

~*Hannah*~
Day after day
Alone on the hill
The man with a foolish grin is keeping perfectly still
But nobody wants to know him
They can see that he's just a fool
And he never gives an answer,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down
And the eyes in his head
See the world spinning round... ~ The Beatles</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 317</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

&quot;CRIMANALS. Hello WAKE UP!!!!!!Did you know that the christians came after the people with the drinking problems and such and guess what they did?THEY CONFORMED THE CRIMANALS then they moved on to the Aborigenies&quot;

If you do mean &quot;conform&quot;, I think that's already been covered. But if you in fact mean &quot;reform&quot;, in reference to Australian aborigines, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at your lack of aust. history knowledge (but then again, I'm certainly no US history expert). Certainly, no reformation has ever occured. Even more certainly, drinking and crime is still a problem among all Australians, although disproportionatly (spelling?) among Aborigines.

Has anyone else noticed how non-Tolkien this is getting? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Gilthalion]

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...a still small voice...

I had absolutely no intentions of even opening this topic, not really seeing the point of Harry Potter opinions on a Tolkien Discussion Board.

Complaints were made in the Barrow-Downs forum which is for general discussions.

So, I opened the topic to have a look.

Then I saw that the topic actually concerned an exercise in comparing and contrasting different works in the fantasy genre. That can be a useful exercise, but I have often found such exercises to be pointless.

The discussion disintegrated into an argument about the values (or lack thereof) among the main characters in the HP series and of Sam in LOTR.

By the way, I was astounded at how many people said they LIKED Gollum, who might be interesting to read, but is HARDLY likeable. Pitiable, but NOT likeable! Not totally irredeemable, but to blame Sam for Gollum's decisions is worse than Sam hastily calling Gollum names when waking to see him &quot;pawing at Master.&quot; Sam even apologized! Sam was also nice enough to Gollum in Ithilien. He can hardly be blamed for being distrustful of the wicked and murderous creature! He could have been nicer perhaps, but I have not seen very many of YOU behaving any more nicely to folk in this topic who were certainly not guilty of Gollums murders and treachery!

After this, the topic further disintegrated into a rather uninformed and malinformed harrangue against the excesses of some who've called themselves Christians and of Fundamentalist Christians in particular.

A news story was republished in this thread that dealt with a particular small group near Pittsburgh whose members thought it best to purge the artifacts they possessed which they felt were coming between themselves and their walk with God. They were demeaned as intolerant and ignorant.

There's not much tolerance in the world for those who hold closely to their faiths, however simple, or however mistaken.

I see intolerance in the name of tolerance. These folk did not, even in the news story, insist that others do as they did. (Though they would clearly have been delighted if the world followed their example!) They did not ransack their neighbor's houses searching for Black Sabbath albums (Grrrr!) or Harry Potter books. They did not send a petition to Congress demanding a repeal of the 1st and 2nd Amendments to the Constitution.

They did what they thought best for themselves and their families. And they furthermore did so knowing YOU (in general) would think them bigots and fools.

I am reminded of a controversy that was brought before the Apostle Paul. It seems that some of the local Christians were getting a good deal at the butcher shop on meat that had been barbequed on pagan altars. Other Christians were upset and wanted Paul to forbid it. Paul answered that if eating such meat was a problem for them, then not to do it! But there was nothing in the meat itself that was evil, and it was not a sin. But to those who did eat the meat he said, don't do it in front of someone who you know it will offend! THAT would indeed be sinful...

For young Hannah and her KKK adversaries, this has a Real Life application for me. I live in Alabama. Down here in the South, the NAACP has been trying very hard for a decade to erase all vestiges of Confederate History. I am opposed to this. Nevertheless, I do NOT fly a CSA Battleflag and I do not support it being flown from the flag pole of our capitol because I know that it's misappropriation in the 1960's as a symbol of Segregationism has made it offensive to some of my Christian brethren (and their relatives). But if young Johnny Reb wants to wear it on his T-shirt because he's proud of umpty-great grandad, he has a right to. See the difference?

Samwise has a mother who would rather she not read Harry Potter, but who trusts Tolkien. Right or wrong, it is her mother's right to forbid her to indulge further in the stories. And it is Samwise's right to be persuaded to her mother's view and to attempt to persuade others as well. And it is the right of others to disagree.

It is no one's right on this Discussion Board to get personal, however.

I would urge you young folk to practice more of the tolerance you claim not to see in the Fundamentalist Christians the modern media teaches us to ridicule and despise.

And as for you young Samwise, be slow to take offense! You'll also find it better to SHOW than to TELL!

And with that, having told off almost everyone all at once, the old hobbit turned on his bare heel, stomped back into his little hole, and slammed the door in their astonished faces!

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 302</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*in a dangerously sweet voice*Zoe guess what?

Actually Hannah, it doesn't depend on a person's religion at all. Fanatics will find a way to warp whatever religion they follow, regardless of what the scriptures say. So it is wrong to generalize and say Christians are more evil than Jews or that Hindus are more evil than Muslims. They aren't.
I've said it once, I'll say it again. Religious sentiments are involved. More tact and respect would help to keep things civil.
It's non-Tolkien all right. This is starting to go as off-track as the Me restaurant with Zoe running it. So far off on a tangent that it's out of sight. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000038>the Lorien wanderer</A> at: 4/9/01 10:35:05 am

[Samwise of the shire]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 97</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re:*small smile....

rubbing her short curly head with a towel*Thanks Sarah needed that.)and Gilth thanks.
Eureka!The monk story was in the fourth century,the monk was an asiatic monk and it is a Really sad story.
Hey any opinions of D&amp;D <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:"> D, hey you's right this is off track majorly,Where did this all start?Seriously I forgot.)Not how to get this back on track.
I dont see how you guys cant see the simalarites to LOTR-this is just for the heck of it not to have anything against HP, I've found my reasons.- Are you sure that Rowling has'nt read &quot;The Hobbit&quot;? I mean she loves fantasy-I was reading an article-,well I gotta go if I wanna post somore
And thanks Gilthalion,Sul,and Sarah
From a very grateful and wet
Samwise of the Shire


</p>

[Mithrandir]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 48</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*small smile....

I have intentionaly not posted anything here yet because i found no point in arguing what cannot be solved. But i have to say that i am very proud of you, Samwise, to admit that the topic had gotten out of hand and to thank everyone else for their opinions. a very noble and honorable gesture. go samwise!!! <img src=pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re:*small smile....

Well, this one's for Sam. Rowling HAS read the Hobbit as well as LoTR as I recently read in an online interview. And she absolutely loved both. In fact, most fantasy writers are ardent fans of Tolkien including Pratchett, Eddings and Jordan.
Ditto as Mithrandir. Go Samwise! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>