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#81 |
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#82 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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Fenris Penguin
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#83 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#84 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Well, he didn't get his rep as a sorcerer because of his skill in pulling rabbits out of his hat. Unless 'sorcerer' means someone who can do card tricks or escape from a straightjacket we must assume it stands for something significant, & as I stated breaking a gate with the aid of a battering ram is not actually all that significant. Sorry, but if breaking the gate in that way was only possible after being given 'added demonic force' then the WK must have been little better than a conjuror without it.
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#86 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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What else did he do in the battle to display this extra power? Nothing that I can see.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 10-09-2007 at 02:56 AM. |
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#87 |
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As mentioned earlier, the fact that Gandalf the Grey was able to break the flaming sword of the Balrog was very significant in terms of power, particularly as the sword was blessed with spell fire & other demonic spells. If a weaker Gandalf was able to destroy the Balrog like this, then a contest between it & the enhanced Witch King may not be as one-sided as some may think. Nevertheless, in order I would put Gandalf the White first, the Balrog second, the enhanced Witch King third, since the Balrog did succeed in ending Gandalf's life.
Breaking a gate, however great, is not as great a demonstration of power as breaking the magical weapon of a Maia. The character of the Balrog & its awesome presence is also probably the greatest achievement in the LOTR - no other chapter comes anywhere near it for suspense & horror than when the Balrog appears - it is a hellish creature which only existed in nightmares of even great folk like Gimli, Legolas & Aragorn. Was the Balrog coming in for the Ring, & if so what may it have done with it? Last edited by Mansun; 10-09-2007 at 01:17 PM. |
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#88 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Guys, we have to get our terms straight, because we're sctually discussing no fewer than twenty different confrontations:
1. Gandalf the Grey vs. pre-Pelennor Witch-king 2. Gandalf the White vs. pre-Pelennor Witch-king 3. Gandalf the Grey vs. Pelennor Witch-king 4. Gandalf the White vs. Pelennor Witch-king 5. Gandalf the Grey vs. winged European Balrog 6. Gandalf the White vs. winged European Balrog 7. Gandalf the Grey vs. wingless European Balrog 8. Gandalf the White vs. wingless European Balrog 9. Gandalf the Grey vs. winged African Balrog 10. Gandalf the White vs. winged African Balrog 11. Gandalf the Grey vs. wingless African Balrog 12. Gandalf the White vs. wingless African Balrog 13. pre-Pelennor Witch-king vs. winged European Balrog 14. Pelennor Witch-king vs. winged European Balrog 15. pre-Pelennor Witch-king vs. wingless European Balrog 16. Pelennor Witch-king vs. wingless European Balrog 17. pre-Pelennor Witch-king vs. winged African Balrog 18. Pelennor Witch-king vs. winged African Balrog 19. pre-Pelennor Witch-king vs. wingless African Balrog 20. Pelennor Witch-king vs. wingless African Balrog And that's without even getting into how much the coconut weighs!
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#89 | |
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#91 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Your arguments are foolish and desperate, Raynor, and I am done dignifying them with detailed responses.
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#92 |
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Thanks for your kind words.
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#93 | |
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But just look at what Wikipedia has to say of Balrogs:- A Balrog is a demon from J. R. R. Tolkien's Arda legendarium. A Balrog (Sindarin for "Demon of Might"; the Quenya form is Valarauko) is a tall, menacing being in the shape of a man, having control of both fire and shadow. One was noted to wield both a flaming sword and fiery whip of many thongs. The Balrog induces great terror in friends and foes alike and can shroud itself in darkness and shadow. It can only be defeated by some person or thing of equal power, and amongst its own evil allies is rivalled only in its capacity for ferocity and destruction by the dragons, but the Balrogs are more powerful than dragons.[1] According to The Silmarillion the Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf. Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent. The Witch King cannot kill a Maiar without being of equal power at least. Last edited by Mansun; 10-09-2007 at 03:26 PM. |
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#94 | |
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#95 |
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#96 | ||
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#97 | |
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Also, we have no evidence that the Balrog was after the Ring. He could have just been angry at being awaken, plus he would have been aware (eventually) that Gandalf also was a Maiar & therefore one of the few foes who could potentially defeat him. Whatever opinion one has, the Balrog can be seen as a truly great opponent with all the hallmarks of a demonic god-like creature of ancient legend which even heroes of modern times dare not name. The Balrog effectively made the LOTR what it is today. Last edited by Mansun; 10-09-2007 at 03:48 PM. |
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#98 | ||||
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#99 | |
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Pull out the cork, sonny. This thread has degenerated into RPG silliness and deserved a good lampooning, Mr. Most-intellectual-threads. ![]()
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#100 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Not the most reliable site on which to base your argument
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Was Ecthelion on par with Gothmog, the servant of Morgoth and son of Morgoth? No, he was just a powerful Elf with particularly good fighting capabilities - doubtless he had this "power" but i would argue against it being equal to the Maija's. Tolkien has surprised us enough with apparently "weaker" foes rising to the challenge so to speak. So to say that the Witch King is inadequate because he must be 'atleast in equal power' and he 'must therefore be deemed a weaker opponant', is in my view a little narrow minded (not personally i'm sure). Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Fingolfin each used a form of weapon to inflict damage on their foe. To say that the Balrogs were not as before, not of Maija or whatever is diverted by Fingolfins battle with Melkor, where he succeeds in frightening him and issuing him with a nice scar. The Witch King, whom i am sure would fail to a Balrog (personally) cannot be counted out. We do not know how it would have gone, we can only bear educated guesses. After analyzing Tolkiens history of upsets it would be folly to just disregard someone because of their status in the world.
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A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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#101 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Nonetheless, lets keep it civil chaps, let us not forget it is a work of fiction we debate here, not the economical state of Great Britain.
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A great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
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#102 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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(You are correct about Sauron being more conservative than Morgoth, who squandered his power. If Sauron was capable of doing this and it involves the same "process" as the Ring's infusion, we must assume that when the Witch-King was slain, Sauron himself was damaged to a certain degree. There's nothing that I am aware of that precludes this possibility, but it is certainly an example of that Morgothian power squandering. Morgoth is the only one I am aware of who is said to put his own power into another being.) Quote:
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#103 | |
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And does this mean that Radagast could defeat the Witch King? After all, he is a Maia. In any case, the Witch King does not follow strictly the Middle Earth hierarchy (even if it were true, which it evidently is not), since he holds one of the Nine Rings and thus gets some of his power directly from Sauron. So one cannot simply describe his power as that of a man, or even as a sorcerer of old...
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#104 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The greatest of the Atani perhaps overlap the least of the Eldar similarly, but the Witch-King is not one of the greatest of the Atani. He does not actually hold a ring of power, Sauron keeps them. He may have been a powerful Man before his corruption, and was perhaps more powerful afterward, but we know that he still fears Glorfindel, Aragorn, and even Boromir I (see appendix). |
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#105 | |
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I believe both Raynor and I have now said that the Balrog would probably triumph in a match up with the Witch King. So the issue is mainly whether the power of the Witch King was augmented, or in fact, what the nature of that power is. I personally believe that this power is fluid and perhaps hard to define (harder than, say, the power of the Balrog) because so much of the power emanates from Sauron. This explains in part to me the very different behavior of the Nazgul (and Witch King) when faced with various foes.
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#106 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well, since there's no evidence to support that Sauron chose the Witch-King for special gifts, such as a prime ring (or even that there was a prime ring), it stands to reason that the power received from the nine rings is primarily that irrational fear that all the Ulairi share. It also stands to reason that those things the Witch-King excels the others in ("more powerful in all ways") are things he brought to the table himself. He was a sorcerer and, evidently, a warlord before his corruption. It is therefore not necessary to assume that he received any abilities as a sorcerer--aside from further training, perhaps--from Sauron or from his ring since he is already identified as a practicer of those arts.
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#107 | |
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' Last edited by CSteefel; 10-09-2007 at 11:47 PM. |
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#108 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why didn't the other Nazgul receive it as well? All the Nazgul received this weapon of supernatural fear, so if the Witch-King acquired his other powers from Sauron, why didn't the others? It makes more sense, lacking any textual indication that Sauron singled out the Witch-King for an extra helping of bad, that the ways in which the Witch-King is superior to the other eight are his own personal skillset, and that the ways in which he is like the other eight (wraith, "weaponized" fear, aversion to water) are what was received from Sauron and the nine rings.
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#109 | |
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#111 | |
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Raynor, you insist to disagree with everything unless it is laid it writing by Tolkein plain & clear. If he were to do that, the LOTR would be the most boring book of all time. The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings. Wikipedia has also been regarded by many as being more accurate than any encyclopedia. I would suggest you try to look at some literacy anaylsis books to see how symbolic objects are meant to be interpreted in literature. Last edited by Mansun; 10-10-2007 at 03:37 AM. |
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#112 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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The Witch-king's motivations are pretty explicitly laid out in the complex of papers associated with The Hunt for the Ring.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#113 |
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I suggest you look to another thread I started sometime ago in the Books forum called The Lord of the Bible?. This thread has many excellent examples.
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#114 |
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If the Witch King was already enhanced, & Sauron did reclaim the Ring, would this make the Witch King more mightier than Gandalf the White & the Balrog? A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle.
It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring. Just when exactly do you think he peaked in his power? It would surely have been when Sauron had the Ring? Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (with Ring) Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (without Ring) Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (enhanced) Who will answer this problem? It appears Tolkein had made a mistake here. The Witch King can only be in his greatest form when Sauron himself is at his greatest. Yet, in the volume III Sauron is at his weakest form, yet he can enhance the Witch King close to Gandalf the White's power?? This cannot be. Also, when the Witch King is killed, it would also imply that Sauron has just squandered the added demonic force he gave away lightly, to the point he may have less power himself as a result. Perhaps in this state even Gandalf the White could defeat him? |
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#115 | |
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#116 | ||
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#117 | |
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I would say that if Sauron did recover the One Ring, then he might have increased the power of the Witch King commensurately, but whether he would have felt the need to do so is another question. My reading of the WK's role in the 2nd Age is that Sauron did not feel the need to do so then...
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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#118 |
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Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.
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#119 | |
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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#120 |
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The WHOLE story is the correlation. Put simply, if the baddie gets the Ring, Middle Earth falls.
Last edited by Legolas; 10-10-2007 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Rule No. 447: Be polite. :) |
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