The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Findegil]

Are there any outstanding points that I've missed? If not, I think we're done with 'The Ruin of Beleriand'!

I dont think so.

It seems we are finished with The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin. When I remember correctly, we planed to review everything done up to this point next. And we had a shaky plan to send the now finished end of our work (from This chapter to the end of the Silmarillion) out to suposedly interested reader to gain more intrest in the project.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

When I remember correctly, we planed to review everything done up to this point next.

Yes, I have (somewhere) a bunch of notes on the texts of the chapters we've done. A lot of it is just typos here and there, but I think there are a few things that may need some discussion. I'll dig those notes out and post them as soon as I can (probably this weekend).

And we had a shaky plan to send the now finished end of our work (from This chapter to the end of the Silmarillion) out to suposedly interested reader to gain more intrest in the project.

Do you think we ought to do this right now or wait until we've reviewed the already-done chapters? It might be better to wait and send a more error-free text, I think.

[Findegil]

I look forward to your notes. Typos are welcome as well as discussable issues. Since I took up the job of the 'typer' I correcr typos silently when I come across, but any findings are welcom of course.

About the discusseable issues: I have tried my hand on the Appendix of The Ainulindalë. Probably I should post that now since it is a kind of condensed overview of our discussions.

Do you think we ought to do this right now or wait until we've reviewed the already-done chapters? It might be better to wait and send a more error-free text, I think.

Your are right. That is probably better.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hi! I have one quick question about this chapter. Why was the name Meril removed as the name of Orodreth's wife? If it was decided that the footnote be taken and applied to him, then why not the name of Inglor's wife as well?

[Findegil]

Meril was removed because she was not named in the later Note on the parentage of Gil-galad. That Orodreth who loved the Mountians (supposedly that of Dorthonion) and had an Sindarin wife, would find that wife in Dorthonion is one thing, but to shift a name from the wife of Finrod to that of Orodreth is as nother kettle of fish.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

As we discussed in the Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie chapter, I will add the bit from the Shibboleth in here:

RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. RB-DF-07.1 <Shibboleth The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Fëanor, and Finrod son of {Arfin}[Finarfin]; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.> Then in great sorrow Fingon ....

[Findegil]

I would edit this a bit diffrent:

§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died. Then in great sorrow Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor[ in Hithlum]> {There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor}, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. RB-DF-07.1<Shibboleth The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedros son of Fëanor, and Finrod son of {Arfin}[Finarfin]; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.<editorial addition based on Shibboleth At this time Finrod added the prefix fin- to the name of his father Arfin following the example of Fingolfin.
>> But beyond Hithlum Morgoth pursued his foes relentlessly, ...

I know that this more risky, but I think we need to explain this prefix.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree, this is better.

[Arvegil145]

I think it should be mentioned somewhere in 'Of the Swarthy Men' that the Folk of Uldor settled in Thargelion (BTW, 'Thargelion' should be changed to 'Thargelian' as per 1970 'Maeglin' text - 'Talath Rhunen' and 'Dor Caranthir' are just other names for the region, not mutually exclusive).

This comes from the 'North-east' section of the map of Beleriand in The War of the Jewels, 'Of Beleriand and Its Realms', p. 183.

[Findegil]

We do already mention that 'The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast and Ulwarth and Uldor the Accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him ...' I don't think that in addition we would need a direct statment that they settled in Dor Caranthir.

BTW Thargelion and Thargelain are not to be used as the River is now named Duin Daer.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

We do already mention that 'The sons of Ulfang the Black were Ulfast and Ulwarth and Uldor the Accursed; and they followed Caranthir and swore allegiance to him ...' I don't think that in addition we would need a direct statment that they settled in Dor Caranthir.

BTW Thargelion and Thargelain are not to be used as the River is now named Duin Daer.

Respectfully
Findegil

First point - yes, folk of Uldor followed Caranthir, but that doesn't necessarily mean they settled on his land: for example, a lot of the Easterlings settled in Lothlann (which I don't think is under anyone's direct rule).

Second - the name 'Thargelian' (and 'Thorewilan') appear in the same text as 'Duin Daer' ('Maeglin', pp. 336-7): it seems that the element '-gelian' at this point in time started to refer to the Sindarized form of the river's Dwarven name ('Gabilan').

[Findegil]

{Thargelion}[Thargelain]: Good point. That gives us a better repleacement than what we have done so fare.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

{Thargelion}[Thargelain]: Good point. That gives us a better repleacement than what we have done so fare.

Respectfully
Findegil

I also think we have to change 'Ascar' to 'Asgar' as per The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Elvish Journeys on Horseback', p. 311 (dating from c. 1970), as well as The War of the Jewels, 'Maeglin', pp. 336-7.

[gondowe]

The Asgar, Ascar names, as far as I know are from the same linguistic period meaning the same and can be interchangeables. In my opinion one name would not invalidate the other.

Greetings

[Elvellon]

In the latest version in the private forum, there seems to be a missing piece here, where the ". }" is:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. }<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

In this post, Findegil suggests this edit:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finrafin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion>. Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with RB-DB-28 {a host of} Balrogs. RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

And then in this post, Aiwendil suggests this edit:

<GA Morgoth learning now of the defeat of the sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin], and the scattering of the people of Fëanor, hemmed Fingolfin in Hithlum and sent a great force to attack the westward pass into the vales of Sirion; and Sauron his lieutenant {(who in Beleriand was named Gorsodh)} led that assault{,}[.]> RB-DB-29 {Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy,}<LQ1 Now Sauron, whom the RB-DB-30 {Noldor call Gorthu}<LQ2 Sindar called Gorthaur>, was the chief servant of Morgoth.

I'm not sure which one was finally decided on. Maybe neither, and it's just a stray "}" that didn't get deleted.

[Findegil]

Thank you for catching this! reading the thread farther, for me Aiwendil editing was taken in the end.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Evellon, did you adapt your settings for no private messages?

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

P.S.: Evellon, did you adapt your settings for no private messages?

I just checked my settings, and I have private messages enabled.