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03-05-2008, 02:32 PM | #81 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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We meet again! This chapter is all about one of my most favouritest characters, Strider/Aragorn. Tolkien does keep us in suspense about his nature and character at the beginning of the chapter. I can feel with him the desire to be accepted for his own sake.
Here's another thing that should have gone right but went wrong - with which results for the quest: Aragorn wanted to warn the Hobbits about going to the common room, but was hindered by Butterbur. What do you think would have been different if they had laid low that evening? Would that have changed anything, perhaps kept the attack from happening? Strider reacts with pain and tension when asked about the Riders. That would hint at personal experience. Do we have a reference to any encounter of his with them previously? He mentions traps that had been set for him by the Enemy in the past - to what do you suppose that refers? Then comes the ultimate "what if" scenario - what if Butterbur hadn't forgotten the letter and the Hobbits had left the Shire in the summer? What causes Butterbur's suspicions about Strider and the Rangers? Is it just the xenophobic tendencies of Bree people? They may be more open to strangers passing through than Shire Hobbits are, but they don't seem to warm to them personally. Sam is the last of the Hobbits to accept Strider - his provincial nature, or lack of vision for the Ranger's true character? Why do you think Tolkien inserted Merry's adventure outside? The Black Breath is mentioned for the first time - foreshadowing his illness due to the same cause after the Witch King encounter in RotK, perhaps. Though the Prancing Pony is not really a safe haven in this night, the presence of Strider provides one for Frodo and his friends.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
03-07-2008, 09:14 AM | #82 | ||||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Concerning Strider, however, he is too mysterious here at the beginning, really. There is time when I really expect him to burst in evil laughter, slay all the Hobbits and then hand them over to the Riders. It is the first paragraph, and it culminates when he says "I had learned that he was carrying out of the Shire, well, a secret that concerned me and my friends". Brr! One thing I just love, and I always loved it since I read it first and I laughed at it a lot (and read it to my parents, although they did not care at all, but I forced them), is this part: Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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06-01-2008, 03:20 PM | #83 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
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Sarn Ford
Hi again,
Strider, well, only a couple of points to add. First on Merry. Why indeed did he go for a stroll round the block? I wonder if it is related to the Barrow incident, Merry appears to have bee the most affected by the experience. Maybe he needed a little time alone to sit and think and a bit of a stroll to clear hs head after his close encounter with mortality? Also this incident marks a change in Merry's role. Up until now he has led the party, but from now on that role is taken by Strider and Gandalf, with Merry taking a back seat. On Strider and the Nazgul, I agree with Legate that Morgul Vale and the hunt for Gollum are good candidates. I also wonder if Strider had heard report of the fight at Sarn Ford on 22nd September where the Dunedain were overwhelmed by the Black Riders? If so presumably he would have heard of the death of some of his close friends and comrades.
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
08-07-2008, 07:55 AM | #84 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Listening to the unabridged version during the daily commute, I noticed how, in the beginning, when Strider is speaking with Frodo and the other hobbits in the parlor, how much Strider asks that he be rewarded for the information that he has. How soon he then rewarded the hobbits with his services! I understand that, as being accepted as a companion on the road, I assume that then Frodo would be responsible for Aragorn's traveling expenses and upkeep, but how little he charges and how much more of a benefit does he show himself to be.
Also, I too like Strider's small reference to having intimate knowledge of the Nazgul. Think that the lack of great exposition actually works better, as my (and I assume everyone else's) imagination filled in the gaps, wondering if Aragorn fought these mostly obscure creatures, what powers they have, etc. Too soon do we learn about the Nazgul, they take wing and become less frightening.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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08-07-2008, 11:43 AM | #85 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
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Scariness
Hi Alatar,
yes I agree with you on the Nazgul, definitely a case of less is more, just like Alien versus Aliens . Though they do remain quite scary throughout, what with threats of being borne away to the House of Nameless Lamentations!
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
10-06-2016, 08:00 AM | #86 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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These last 4 chapters of Book I are fantastic. In this chapter we resolve Frodo's worries at the end of the last chapter:
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I love how Tolkien gives us a chapter focused on Aragorn and learning who he is. More will continue to be revealed about him, but he makes pretty clear he wants to be king: Quote:
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Fenris Penguin
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10-06-2016, 01:54 PM | #87 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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This was a nice calm chapter (as far as it can be under the circumstances). This chapter also introduces (properly, after vague hints in the previous one) the first important major character who is going to be with us until the end, and have a quite significant role.
Strider, to me, seems on first sight maybe not "foul" in the way Mr. Baggins probably perceived it, but rather being unnecessarily dramatic and "epic" in the wrong sense: dark. I understand he had spent most of his life traveling alone in the wilderness, but he also had basically a hundred years to meet humans (and others) and therefore one would expect a bit of empathy. "They came from Mordor, MORDOR! And they are more terrible than you can imagine!" is not what you go around telling people who are already scared enough as it is. Especially towards Butterbur, who, as Strider should understand, it a common fellow doing his own, and is not very well educated (even though certainly not stupid) and "big, epic, mystical" stuff is somehow outside his league, well, towards him Strider is just terrible. If this had been a Harry Potter book, Strider would walk around Hogwarts randomly interjecting Voldemort's real name into every sentence. I cannot completely shake off the feeling that he is doing it partly intentionally, just to be mean. Otherwise, he is of course very helpful. And so is Butterbur, once again surprisingly so maybe for some readers who might have underestimated him on first sight. Aside from having forgotten to send the letter, he is very sharp in figuring out what's going on and what needs to be done. And the same thing applies even in larger scale to Nob (once again, a character overlooked, I believe, unjustly). Nob seems to know a lot, and seems to act a lot of his own initiative (simulating Mr. "Underhill"'s head, for instance) - something you would not necessarily expect from an "employee" of his kind. He reminds me actually a lot of the classic figure of renaissance (and even later, especially Italian) novels, the "clever servant" who is more clever or wiser than he seems on first sight. If Butterbur is the somehow erratic "master", Nob is the servant who might be in the background, but actually does the important and practical things. Or if I move away from Italian and think Spanish, Nob could have been Sancho Panza. We also learn a bit more about how the Riders "operate" in this chapter (aside from more scary hints from Strider that he knows their number and such), and also hints on how the Rangers (here represented only by Strider) operate, that they protect the Shire, and about Strider's cooperation with Gandalf. What I personally liked always about this chapter is the description of Merry's little adventure and the mention of the "Black Breath". Whatever it is, it sounds wonderful. By which I mean, of course, scary. But it must be something pretty cool.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
10-10-2016, 07:44 AM | #88 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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As for Butterbur, Aragorn could have had a similar desire to convince him how dangerous the Nazgûl were, and how important it was to help Frodo. Aragorn knew he himself was suspected by Butterbur, and the Breelanders in general, so he'd want to show that Mordor was the focus. Quote:
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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11-01-2016, 07:16 PM | #89 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,318
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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11-05-2016, 08:36 PM | #90 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Yes, we must remember the context (in both the original and the film) is that Pippin and Frodo had been making themselves all too conspicuous. And Butterbur probably needs to be warned what he's dealing with- that said, Aragorn obviously doesn't like him and possibly takes an unworthy satisfaction in scaring him.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
08-05-2018, 07:00 AM | #91 |
Dead Serious
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Nothing leapt out at me specifically with "I must write about that on the Downs" reading through this chapter, and rereading the thread has not prompted anything distinct either (though this is one of the best CbC threads I've reread yet, so let us blame that one holding an only partially asleep infant while reading it).
Nonetheless, I want to say *something*, because I share the sentiment of a number of posters over the years in this thread who love this chapter. The comparison is made above that "Strider" is rather like "A Conspiracy Unmasked" in that it is largely a chapter of dialogue in a place of pause. That happens to be one of my favourite things--I have just enough of an actor left in me from middle school to enjoy reading the dialogue aloud from favourite authors, and Aragorn is a favourite--Gandalf too, and though he does not appear here, his voice does in the form of that letter. One of the joys of re-reading a favourite text is reencountering beloved characters, and having Aragorn join the story has more of a sense of "finally!" than anyone else. With Strider in the picture, the main cast seems complete, because even if he isn't the main character, I'd argue that he is a main character--even if his much of his purpose is to provide contrast to the doings of the Hobbits, and to show that even in the Kingly and Heroic the greatest virtues are those shared with the humble and Hobbit-like, it is still the case that to show this, he must be a prominent character. And his is--in The Two Towers and The Return of the King, when the action separates the Hobbits and we have none to follow, Aragorn becomes our de facto protagonist, even if he remains a secondary character in terms of the epic as a whole. As to whether Strider is a flat character, I think we need to define our terms. If by flat, we mean that Strider is not a complex character, I suppose I can imagine how that might be perceived, but I would disagree with it completely; however, if we mean that Strider is a static character--i.e. someone who does not substantially change within the course of the narrative--then I quite agree: Strider's character is determined by the eight-plus decades before we meet him at the Prancing Pony. The part that we get to see up close is the endgame, where who he is and what he will do has already been decided--we're just seeing how those decisions are going to play out. Which is why, to engage with a potential plothole already interacted with in the thread, it makes sense to me that Aragorn would have the Shards of Narsil on him. Even if Gandalf has told him nothing of the Ring (though, in fact, he has apparently told him a great deal, since he's already cautioning Frodo on it in the previous chapter) Aragorn can read the same signs of the times that even Frodois hearing about before Gandalf's return in "Shadow of the Past," and can presumably interpret them better than most. He knows war with Mordor is imminent. So while he obviously wasn't carrying around the Shards while he was undercover as Thorongil, it does make sense to me that he'd have them, knowing they were entering the Last Days. On a different note--it occurs to me that Strider is one of a very select few to have a chapter named after him. Tom Bombadil, Elrond, and Galadriel all get mentioned in a chapter title, though the subject is some of theirs (a house, council, and mirror respectively)--likewise, in the later books: Boromir, Saruman, Sméagol, Shelob, Samwise, and Denethor. Only Treebeard gets a chapter titled specifically identified as about him by name, though Gandalf and Théoden in the following two chapters each get a title that refers to them directly ("The White Rider" and "The King of the Golden Hall")--and if we go by that criteria, the only two-person chapter title is "The Steward and the King," which bookends "Strider." Strider is introduced in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" and he last appears in "Many Partings," but "Strider" is where we learn his identity and "The Steward and the King" is where that identity comes to fulfillment.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
Last edited by Formendacil; 08-05-2018 at 07:01 AM. Reason: Fix spelling |
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