Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

I've tried to stay away from the obvious, but note that Morgoth became ever sleepier the more that Luthien danced (i.e. He didn't *suddenly* have the desire to sleep).

It wasn't an obvious comment at all but a test to see if anyone would point out that cigarettes would be an anachronism in Middle-earth, tobacco being called pipeweed.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Oh what humiliation! Waking up alone and confused without even a taste of the action, and worst of all robbed, robbed of a silmaril of all things!

Well, it's not like he could have been robbed of his virtue, is it?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It wasn't an obvious comment at all but a test to see if anyone would point out that cigarettes would be an anachronism in Middle-earth, tobacco being called pipeweed.

Oh, sure, now that you point that out, your intent is obvious. Silly me; failed again.

"Curse you forever, Fingolfin!" Melkor said, seated on his dark throne as Luthien danced. He looked down at his lame foot, knowing that he'd never square dance ever again.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for a while, and taking secret pleasure in his thought...

Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadpws began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.

As I... ahem... remembered it, Morgoth seemed to get a waking wet dream first, before slumbering from the ... er... fatigue... Typical male libido...

[The Sixth Wizard]

One wonders what drove respectable elf women to discard their perfect immortality for the possibility of a hundred years with Men like Turin or Beren.

Guess they just had really long fingers...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

One wonders what drove respectable elf women to discard their perfect immortality for the possibility of a hundred years with Men like Turin or Beren.

It's been studied in various species. The female, in order to incorporate new genes into the tribe, will mate with the 'outsider.' There's also the cad-dad theory, which states that females like a cad now and then to just a plain old dad. And what could be plainer than a thousand-plus year old elf?

Luthien, obviously, knew that a hybrid would be more successful, and Beren was just so dashing, and if it didn't work out, he'd surely be dead in a hundred years or two.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

It's been studied in various species. The female, in order to incorporate new genes into the tribe, will mate with the 'outsider.' There's also the cad-dad theory, which states that females like a cad now and then to just a plain old dad. And what could be plainer than a thousand-plus year old elf?

Luthien, obviously, knew that a hybrid would be more successful, and Beren was just so dashing, and if it didn't work out, he'd surely be dead in a hundred years or two.

In Luthien's case, throw in a bit of rebellion, and I think you're right. Thingol wasn't the most liberal thinker in the Sil. He seemed to me a very strict father-figure, which made it easier for Luth to let her hair down. If it were the 60's, she'd be in Haight-Ashbury as a groupie for the Grateful Dead.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In Luthien's case, throw in a bit of rebellion, and I think you're right. Thingol wasn't the most liberal thinker in the Sil. He seemed to me a very strict father-figure, which made it easier for Luth to let her hair down. If it were the 60's, she'd be in Haight-Ashbury as a groupie for the Grateful Dead.

Remember, she herself was a hybrid. Plus, she may have been not only looking to further add to the gene pool, but what better way to get dad's attention than to do the worst possible thing (besides hooking up with Melkor, which Thingol may have preferred over Beren)?

[Lush]

You know, after all this time, I have to say... She's not very complicated, but she is probably my favourite character of the "olden days" as it may be.

[Mithalwen]

And I still loathe her completely... possibly more than any other character in the entire opus..... want to smack her hard with the heftiest feminist tract available...

[Lush]

Feminist she ain't, but there's "something in the way she moves."

Says Lush, the hard-bitten cynical eurotrash feminist of her generation.

[Lalaith]

Why not feminist? She did cool stuff. Not just the Morgoth-enchanting....

She acted as ambassador for the peoples of Middle Earth. She moved Mandos as he had never been moved before. She softened the ground for Earendil, IMO.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Why not feminist? She did cool stuff. Not just the Morgoth-enchanting....

She acted as ambassador for the peoples of Middle Earth. She moved Mandos as he had never been moved before. She softened the ground for Earendil, IMO.

And she was hot!

Ummm...why are all you women glaring at me?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Why not feminist? She did cool stuff. Not just the Morgoth-enchanting....

She acted as ambassador for the peoples of Middle Earth. She moved Mandos as he had never been moved before. She softened the ground for Earendil, IMO.

Rubbish - she acted purely out of self interest founded from her lust for Beren. She did nothing until then and allowed herself to be kept in a cage. She does not speak she merely twitters yet everyone falls over themselves because she is beautiful. In addition I hate the story because I think of what an unhappy time Edith idealised as Luthien had.

Idril wipes the floor with her - Tolkien deified his brunettes but the blondes definitely have more fun

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Why not feminist? She did cool stuff. Not just the Morgoth-enchanting....

She acted as ambassador for the peoples of Middle Earth. She moved Mandos as he had never been moved before. She softened the ground for Earendil, IMO.

In all male dominated times women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist. I am quite sure that Thyra Danebod was no feminist, neither do I belive that Margrete I was one, but they might be feminist examples on womens equal ability.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Rubbish - she acted purely out of self interest founded from her lust for Beren.

I would have blamed it on her genes, which saw an opportunity to create a hybrid species that would increase their (the genes) chances of survival. Luthien was just a vehicle through which they acted.

Don't hate her because she is beautiful; are we sure that her beauty was merely outwardly? Some of us troglodytes see inner as well as outer beauty.

She did nothing until then and allowed herself to be kept in a cage.

She was just pacing herself, husbanding her resources until they would be needed.

She does not speak she merely twitters yet everyone falls over themselves because she is beautiful.

Brevity in speech can be a gift.

Idril wipes the floor with her - Tolkien deified his brunettes but the blondes definitely have more fun

Can we not like more than one thing? Some prefer roses, others daisies, some Birds of Paradise, and yet to me, the dandelions plucked from my yard in the hand of my daughter are the best of all.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Don't hate her because she is beautiful; are we sure that her beauty was merely outwardly? Some of us troglodytes see inner as well as outer beauty.

.

I don't hate her for being beautiful I hate the fact that it is the sole criterion. That Luthien is placed highest for her beauty where as those who were wise and resourceful and served their people as well as being beautiful are sidelined.

And dying for love is so irritatingly adolescent.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't hate her for being beautiful I hate the fact that it is the sole criterion.

Maybe that's just shorthand for the beauty of her soul and for the deeds and hope that sprung from her hands.

That Luthien is placed highest for her beauty where as those who were wise and resourceful and served their people as well as being beautiful are sidelined.

Maybe Tolkien was just being a realist. Thinking about school alumni this weekend, the reason why our school reunions are so disorganized, ill-conceived and planned, and therefore mostly unattended is that, back in the day when hormones ruled our brains, we elected our male and female class officers due to looks/charisma and not necessarily because they would make for good leaders.

Has anyone else noticed this happening? Surely, come this November in 'Merica, most voters will vote for a candidate only after a careful examination of all candidates' positions, strengths, skills, deeds and psychological evalutaions.

And dying for love is so irritatingly adolescent.

Not sure what you mean, and when I first read this, I thought that you had written irrationally adolescent, which I thought was an oxymoron, and note that that is only apparent when one is not either.

[Mithalwen]

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....


Thinking back to a fascinating lecture David Doughan gave at Oxonmoot 06 about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude. Having heard reports of Priscilla being (unsuprisingly) formidable intellectually, I can't help speculating if being the father of a clever and strongminded daughter forced him to alter his opinions.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....

Do I hear a poll forming somewhere on the Downs?

about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude.

Speaking from the male side and from experience, if one's attitudes regarding the 'fairer half' don't change over time, one might want to examine one's toes to see if there be a little expiration tag attached.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

What adolescent didn't want to die for a love, at least once? I too may have been once benighted...

And, seeing my wife's mother lose her husband of nearly fifty years, she too has wanted to die, if only to be with him, to be by his side once more, and she is well beyond the years of adolescence, may mean that later years only change the forms, but not the intensity, of the expression.

[Mithalwen]

Oh it makes so much more sense after 50 years... though your Mother in Law was truly blessed - my Great -grandmother apparently used to say that she shouldn't mind a few years a widow..... and didn't get them. But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

On the other hand, can we truly say that Luthien ever acted immaturely? She took down Morgoth, gave her father and company the slip, and brought back the Man and the Silmaril, and so she was much more than just a pretty face.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

Which is exactly my point. Should have got over that drip Beren .... And I don't see what is so clever about giving Thingol the slip. Any girl worth her salt handles Daddy far better. Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans. Luthien is entirely self obsessed and motivated only by self interest - that is very adolescent.

[Lalaith]

Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans

well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

Rune's idea about feminism is quite interesting.

women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist

As is Mith's point about Priscilla.
Eowyn (written I think to please Priscilla - where did I read that?) was aware of the constraints facing women and rebelled against them. Neither she, nor probably her creator, had ever heard of the concept of feminism. Does that make her, nonetheless, a feminist figure? I think so. Rune, and others, may not.

Which reminds me.
"I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the stomach of a concrete elephant. First I'm going to have a little drinkie, and then I'm going to execute the whole bally lot of you."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Rune's idea about feminism is quite interesting.
As is Mith's point about Priscilla.

Eowyn (written I think to please Priscilla - where did I read that?) was aware of the constraints facing women and rebelled against them. Neither she, nor probably her creator, had ever heard of the concept of feminism. Does that make her, nonetheless, a feminist figure? I think so. Rune, and others, may not.

It should probably have said "many women have done great deeds, but that does not make them a feminist" and not "women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist"

Anyways I do agree with what you say, I belive that you can be symbol of something you might not even understand or belive in.

My posts are just not well written.

[Lalaith]

Rune, don't worry, I did understand you meant 'them' not 'you'.

I was pondering on whether you could 'be' something before that concept had been named. Eg feminism.
You could ponder the same issue with Marxism, Christianity, etc....

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lalaith;564990]well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

QUOTE]

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

Ummm...but the hotness factor supersedes all the feminist claptrap.

*The Dark Elf, realizing he has once again accidently spoken his mind out loud, quicky reverts to subterfuge*

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

[Mithalwen]

The first time I read it I couldn't believe that Aragorn could prefer her to Eowyn - after all "A woman should never learn to sew, and if she can she shouldn't admit to it.". Then I realised that Faramir is Mr Wonderful and was very glad.. you couldn't really call Arwen defiant (unless you are *gulp* referring to the films ) in which case I'd say petulant.

I don't ask for miracles just a bit of wit and spark - and that is the blondes - Idril, Galadriel, Eowyn - Erendis lacks style but not strength.

Actually it is a miracle that I like this stuff at all

[Tuor in Gondolin]

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

Well, I think you'd have to include Luthien taking on Morgoth
(via Beleriand Idol song contest) in Angband, and
how about Tar-Ancalime? (Now there's a proto-feminist,
and a scary date ).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

It bothered me that after Thingol died, Melian just went away weeping. She had the power to keep off evil from her realm, and besides, if you're a monarch aren't you supposed to protect your people? I suppose being dowager, she isn't. She left it in Dior's hands entirely. Had she stayed and endured her grief (which is pretty understandable, the loss of a darling husband), Doriath would stand longer, maybe as long as Gondolin. But then, Melian being such a "weak" character fits in with the whole plot for the fall of the kingdoms in Beleriand.

But about Erendis: it shocked me. (Well, I was a young and brought up with traditional Catholic teaching and values). The whole concept of men being half-elves, great and proud, and women but little playthings, "for their bodies' needs," or "if fair to adorn their table and hearth", "of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain."

Her advice to her daughter, "sink your roots into the rock and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves," is it not a way of saying "you're a woman, but of a great heritage. You are bound to get gender discriminations, but then you gotta prove them wrong"?

Ancalime however is not the perfect feminist manifesto, though I think she is one of the strongest female characters of Tolkien. She did not refuse the scepter, she was clever, but no mention of Numenor gaining further glory--she even abandoned her father's policy after he died. The event at Emerie, "where even the sheep seemed to make fun of her" further gives the impression you can't be female and a very strong leader, or you'll be made fun of. And Ancalime still had to marry, because of the patriarchal laws. And when Gondor and Arnor were established, Elendil didn't really follow the "new law", did he?

Once in a class someone said that Eowyn can pass for a feminist character, she being able to kill the WK, and prior to that entrusted with the care of Edoras. But it was equally countered, she had the help of Merry, and if Aragorn didn't really refuse her she wouldn't have gone to Gondor seeking death (rather too emo-ey, isn't it?); she was chosen in Edoras simply because she was the last of the line of Eorl, and she wasn't even thought of before Hama (or whoever) suggested it. Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

The most freedom Tolkien's females have is the freedom to choose who they will love. From Melian, Luthien, Galadriel, Idril, Arwen, Eowyn, etc, except Ancalime who did not want it. Eowyn had to settle for "less", but still it was her choice. But even the freedom to choose their loves restricted them. You don't really hear of ugly females, only fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so. But even by the choice of their lovers were they, even the most willful, chained, in a matter of speaking.

[Lalaith]

Really thoughtful analysis Lindale. However...

fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

I have to agree with yourt analysis regarding Galadriel, Lalaith. She gave the cold shoulder to the greatest elf in the history of his own mind, Feanor, and picked Celeborn for her boy-toy due to his distinctive silver hair and his willingness to relocate to wherever she wanted to go. All kidding aside, when Celeborn and Galadriel have a discussion with the Fellowship in Lorien, isn't it plain to everyone who the 'real' power is in Lorien? It always struck me that Celeborn was given his army to command so he wouldn't lose face having to answer to his more powerful and cunning wife (after all, she has the Elven Ring, not he). It would be very embarrassing for poor old Celeborn to be 2nd in command of the army as well as the kingdom (I don't think Galadriel would have skipped a beat leading the army).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

My bad. I guess I overgeneralized it again. Anyway, this is pretty much the same stuff I wrote for a term paper in a survey of European lit class around a year ago, and it didn't fare too well, mainly because I didn't read the course description properly: Survey of Continental European Literature.

About Galadriel, if I may add, she was Nerwen too, man-maiden. Like Pallas Athena of the ancient patriarchal Greeks, who was female in gender and appearance, but male in everything else, fatherless, a true warrior, embodiment of wisdom (which ironically females were supposed to have lesser than men). Galadriel did wield an elven ring, but the mightiest of the three was with Elrond. She is counted with Feanor as the greatest of the Noldor, but isn't the greatest elf of all.

"I passed the test, I will diminish, and go to the West, and remain Galadriel." Before my feminism classes I thought it a very good concept. But now I have my doubts.... patriarchy and such buzzing around in my head again.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lindale;565279]
Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

QUOTE]

I agree with a lot of what you have said but I have to dispute this. Eowyn does not passively accept her fate. She chooses it. Eowyn is admirable in so many ways. She is fair and noble by birth but she is brave and high hearted and strong. And intelligent. Yes, Grima's words may have had an effect but she knows there is no point in staying at Edoras (yet somehow she is usually judged harder than the men who defy orders) and that is no doubt why Elfhelm colludes with her riding - and UT tells us that the Marshal was not averse to following his own wisdom. She sees only death and despair and Aragorn is the only available escape route. I do not seeing why choosing life and the love of a man who loves her for herself stops her being feminist. Healing isn't a specifically female occupation in ME - the greatest healers are men - Elrond and his sons and Aragorn and while there are women in the houses of healing it is male led.
I am pretty sure that Eowyn wasn't planning on emptying bedpans....

In elven culture healers abstained as much as possible from warfare and even hunting though in Gondorian (and indeed English) culture the healer-king is part of the tradition and the King would inevitably also be a warrior.

[Lindale]

Generally speaking, though, she thinks of warriors as "more" or "above" healers, at least until Faramir.

[Mithalwen]

Ah but the context has changed greatly. . Look at their conversations in "The Steward and the king". Faramir see them as equals and indeed he is at her mercy since he does not conceal his feelings. There is that crucial moment when they stand on the walls of the City and she says "I stand upon some dreadful brink , and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whetherthere is any light behind me I cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I am waiting for some stroke of doom.' and at that moment everything is still even their hearts for a moment. Only then is Eowyn able ot turn to light and life and love. The world has changed - Eowyn was a warrior becasue it was the only way of doing something that might make a difference. As she says later when she accepts Faramir "The Shadow has departed. I will be a shieldmaiden no longer....I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren" . It is Eowyn who changes in response to hope.

[Lush]

I love you guys.

Oh, and I've never really pondered the Edith-as-Luthien thing (even though I've heard and read about it) up until now, but does anyone know if she even had a say in putting the name "Luthien" on that tombstone?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Nope - she was dead.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

I love you guys.

Oh, and I've never really pondered the Edith-as-Luthien thing (even though I've heard and read about it) up until now, but does anyone know if she even had a say in putting the name "Luthien" on that tombstone?

While some people leave detailed instructions as to their funerals there is a letter, I think to Michael which implies that this was JRRT's own idea. Certainly it seems more likely. Seldom has a romantic gesture seemed so chilling...

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While some people leave detailed instructions as to their funerals there is a letter, I think to Michael which implies that this was JRRT's own idea. Certainly it seems more likely. Seldom has a romantic gesture seemed so chilling...

And I don't think old JRRT had in his mind any of the arguments against Luthien that you lot have raised..