A Measure of Success

[Susan Delgado]

Perhaps we should do away with the list of approved gamers. I know that it was a lot of work to compile, and that it was created to prevent Shirefolk who aren't ready to move on from doing so, but as been previously noted, there are many current Shirefolk who could move on and play in Rohan, but can't because they aren't on the list. It seems to be limiting Rohan's potential.

[Mithadan]

The RPG forum's moderators have hammered out some new rules for the operation of Rohan and The Shire which will be posted shortly. Thank you all for your input!

[Durelin]

Alrighty, I think this thread needs to be used again...

I love RPing here. Love it. So everything I say in criticism is not meant really negatively. Really they're more concerns. I care about the RPing here, and so I have concerns for its longevity. They say (whoever this "they" is), "if it's not broken, don't fix it," but personally, I think it's starting to feel just an itty bit brokey around here...

Anyway, down to business:

My first concern is with getting new gamers involved. The forums have been far from void of this, but it still seems like new gamers and few and far-between. I love writing with all the RPers on here, but we need new faces to keep things moving. I think that it really has become sort of "clique"-like, which was a concern voiced earlier in this thread. To an outsider, I think games don't look like their open. There's been a lot of inviting and "dedicated players" so that the roles are filled up quickly, and the use of "planning threads" where only invited people can post I believe deters people who aren't already established as players from looking into it.

The Inns are great for just jumping in (well, the "Golden Perch" is...the "Eorling Mead Hall" is great, but I don't think it's as good for people just to jump right it, which is understandable as it's the Rohan "inn"), but I do think people get bored. Unfortunately people do tend to get bored rather quickly. Should the RP Forums cater to those people? No, but perhaps things need to be a little more open.

Then there is the "moving up" in the forums. While having the different forums for different levels allows for definite growth and for good writers/RPers to focus their efforts together, it also can have a "reward system" feel to it. Unfortunately, becoming a "Rohan Gamer" and being on the nice, nifty list becomes like a merit badge, and "getting out of the Shire" might well become a goal. At least, it can.

My other major concern deals with the distinction between "Fan-Fiction" and "Roleplaying" which is growing less and less, and which has been an issue I think practically since people started realizing that "Freestyle RPing" was just not working. I agree, trust me. I like fan-fiction, and I think displaying writers here on BD's work as true "fiction" is a wonderful thing, but turning a RPG into a fan-fiction practically before it's even started is an issue for me.

Forum roleplaying is great because it's writing and storytelling. But it's not the same as writing fiction. Roleplaying is about reactions, about being "in-character," not about writing about a character. You are the character. Sounds nerdy...well, I guess it is. The plot must be character driven, which means it must be driven by all the writers. Of course you should have a basic plot, of course a free-for-all is a waste of time, but you can't write a character based on a story. Once you have created the character, they're the ones you're writing the story as.

Writing fiction as a group takes a more cohesive group than roleplaying. Fiction is more definitively planned, and while stories can be character-driven, you're more mindful of the story as a whole. The window which you look through is widened, as writers plan out the path the story will take, and not necessarily just what their character will say or do next. Again, still sounds like fun to me, but it's different.

The story of a fiction becomes someone's or multiple people's baby. There's no way around it. It's not going to be left as open to others as an RPG is.

I wanted to address one game in particular that has me torn. It's probably pretty easy to guess, because it hasn't even started yet...yes, Estelyn's "REB." I love the concept, I really do, and I'd love to be a part of such a parody, and the idea of "cameos" sounds really great (cameos are such fun! though actually I don't think I've ever written one...), but...is that really an RPG?

Yes, of course there will be character interaction between the cameos and the characters Esty plays, but, why are those cameo characters, if they are but cameos? I think they become - and I know this sounds really negative; I'm sorry, it's the only way I can manage to express it - "pawns" to the story. In RPGs, when cameos come into the game is determined by the game manager, and largely cameos have a decided upon "purpose." I don't know if this is quite what "cameos" will be like in this game, but they could well become that even if it's not the intention.

Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But I think it does mean that it's losing a lot of RPG qualities.

A lot about the RPing on BD has lost some RP qualities. In particular is the idea of writing "briefly" for another character. I don't think writing for another character should be allowed at all, and I regret having to do it to carry things along sometimes. So perhaps it should only be allowed when one needs to move the plot along (such as wrapping up a battle, bring a group to a destination, etc.). Also, I must admit I hate "saves." But again, they are good for when the plot needs to be moved along, whether it is because someone needs to get something in before the plot is moved along, or if it is already determined that the post that will fill in the save will move the plot along, having a specific purpose. And I do think "moving the plot along" has become a part of almost every action. I really like having the ability to just sit back and have some character interaction for a while, rather than always just trying to keep events and characters moving. I think it's often difficult to get around all the moving plot. Is it because there is too much plot? And if there is less plot, will that mean it is less interesting to RPers?

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

No, I don't have any solutions for anything, and if I did, I still probably wouldn't post them until I found out I wasn't crazy, and the only one who sees these problems...which I very well may be.

I do have a wild idea, though - there is a fan-fiction forum, right? And it seems in need of a little more activity? Perhaps an area could be set up for facilitating "group fan-fiction" writing? This might blur the distinctions between RPGs and Fan-Fics even more, but perhaps there is a way to divide them both "physically" and conceptually.

To wrap things up, finally...

1. I have no idea if any of that was coherent. My thoughts are scrambled, and I believe that my concerns for what is going on now and what might develop in the future got mixed up, so...

2. I really, really hope I didn't sound angry or even irritated. I'm more worried, and also very intrigued by what I find when actually taking a step back and looking at the RPing that goes on here.

3. I really don't want to offend anyone, and I am definitely not blaming anyone, nor do I mean to be criticizing anyone. Really. My intention was only to question.

4. Even if this is completely ignored, I will continue RPing here and loving it, as always!

If you did bother reading this...wow, what a los-...I mean, thanks very much for your time.

-Dury

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I did read all of what you wrote, Durelin, and I understand your concerns. As it's my Entish Bow story that prompted your thoughts, I will reply to those. As I am not currently involved in other RPGs, I cannot speak to the other issues.

I have long considered whether or not there was a future for the REB "franchise". There were three possibilities facing me:

1. quitting completely
2. continuing by myself as a fan fiction
3. attempting to achieve something as close as possible to the original RPG concept

1. "The End" was definitely an option, and the second part of the story was finished without plans to carry on. However, there still is a story begging to be told, and I have the impression that there are enough interested readers who would like to see it happen.

2. I first thought of writing further adventures as a fan fiction, since the original writers of several characters vital to the continuing plot are no longer active, and I had their permission to use their characters. However, this would have meant that the third part of what would then become a trilogy would be located somewhere else, thereby losing its connection with the first two parts. I would also then have excluded the influence of other writers, much to the detriment of the story.

3. I wanted continuity, since this was not a completely new story, independent of others. Therefore, after long consideration, I decided that this was the option most appropriate to the story concept.


I know that REB is an exception to several of the principles upon which our RPG system is based. However, the Gondor forum allows for considerable leeway, and exceptions can add to the colorful flavor of storytelling here. It's not like this particular game is taking away writers or space needed elsewhere - there are still plenty of possibilities for newcomers and others to find games in which they can participate.

REB is a parody - not every writer can handle that kind of narrative tone. That's the main reason why I have reserved the right to choose the participants. I have always been open to additional writers who have asked to join and of whom I know that they can write this kind of humor. The cameo idea is there precisely for that. However, I know how quickly other priorities take precedence, and that is why I do not care to struggle with long-time "save" posts and missing authors again.

If other members have new ideas for "genuine" RPGs such as you suggest, more power to them! It would also be nice if someone took interest in reviving the Seventh Star Inn. There's still lots of space left in Gondor...

[Durelin]

I really hope I did not offend. Though, obviously, I probably did, as I know I singled out your game, a continuation of what can probably be described as "your baby." I apologize profusely.

But I didn't mean to tear it down or criticize at all. It probably sounded that way (how many times can I use "probably" in a post? hrmm...), and, again, I apologize. It was meant to be an example of where it seems to me that many people's views of RPGs here in general are going. I have nothing against the idea, nor do I think it is somehow out of place or "doesn't belong" on the forums - but, as you have acknowledged, it is different. But as something new, it will be quite interesting.

I understand your frustrations regarding "waiting" for people, and I have been on both sides of the waiting...unfortunately more often on the making people wait end. I feel terrible when I make people wait, and I get a little irked when I feel like waiting for people is definitely slowing things down. It is not uncommon, really, for a RPG to ultimately slow down to a halt, so approaching a project that is dear to you in a way that will all but insure that will not happen is an excellent idea.

I'm starting to feel I was delusional in much of what I said... Ah well, maybe in a day or two I'll remember what my point was...or not...

[piosenniel]

Let me preface my responses by saying these are my personal biases as an RP’er and are not how I might approach these concerns as a moderator of the RP forums (although, I’ll waffle here, and say I might throw in a few “moderatish” observations).

Originally Posted by Durelin

I love RPing here. Love it. So everything I say in criticism is not meant really negatively. Really they're more concerns. I care about the RPing here, and so I have concerns for its longevity. They say (whoever this "they" is), "if it's not broken, don't fix it," but personally, I think it's starting to feel just an itty bit brokey around here...

I love RP’ing, too. (yesss.....my precious, we knows you do.....who else would be harebrained enough to take on the job of moderator *NOW, PIO......SURELY THAT REMARK IS MEANT TO EXCLUDE CHILD AND RIM AND THE VOICE FROM THE PAST, B.B.)

& along with Dury, I too have hade that creeping sensation that the style of RPG’ing here is changing

Originally Posted by Durelin

My first concern is with getting new gamers involved. The forums have been far from void of this, but it still seems like new gamers and few and far-between. I love writing with all the RPers on here, but we need new faces to keep things moving. I think that it really has become sort of "clique"-like, which was a concern voiced earlier in this thread. To an outsider, I think games don't look like their open. There's been a lot of inviting and "dedicated players" so that the roles are filled up quickly, and the use of "planning threads" where only invited people can post I believe deters people who aren't already established as players from looking into it.

New gamers seem to be less plentiful now than they were in the olden days. (*cue goldeny light here). To be honest, just a few years back we were tripping all over new gamers, eager to play. Speaking as a moderator, now, whose business it is to get players for a game’s roster, I’ve started to rely more and more (insist and prod, even) that game owners shop their game idea about with their friends to see if they can generate interest for some of the Character Roles. Beyond that there’s my job next of advertising the game and PM’ing like heck all the fledging players and those more experienced to see if I can drum up enough interest to fill the rest of the slots. It’s a labor intensive way of getting people interested in a game. And it goes on behind the scenes, so no one knows how many prospective players are contacted and then cajoled, wheedled, whatever needs to be done, to at least have them think they might like to look at the game and perhaps play in it.

Originally Posted by Durelin

The Inns are great for just jumping in (well, the "Golden Perch" is...the "Eorling Mead Hall" is great, but I don't think it's as good for people just to jump right it, which is understandable as it's the Rohan "inn"), but I do think people get bored. Unfortunately people do tend to get bored rather quickly. Should the RP Forums cater to those people? No, but perhaps things need to be a little more open.

I’m really quite unclear here about how you mean the gaming process should be a little more open. As you know, those who want to lead a game can always ask for a planning thread to get a game in shape for approval by the mods. Sometimes the planning threads are closed, so that the game leaders/proposers can work exclusively on the game. It’s always an option to leave the planning thread open.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

Then there is the "moving up" in the forums. While having the different forums for different levels allows for definite growth and for good writers/RPers to focus their efforts together, it also can have a "reward system" feel to it. Unfortunately, becoming a "Rohan Gamer" and being on the nice, nifty list becomes like a merit badge, and "getting out of the Shire" might well become a goal. At least, it can.

I’ve always detested the idea that a gamer “moves up/grows out of” one forum and need abandon the “lower” forum for the “higher/better” forum.

Here’s how I see it:

The Shire is very labor intensive for the moderators. It’s the place where gamers (players & leader/proposers) can get the most assistance from us as they learn to game using the BD process. Some gamers enjoy that sort of hands on approach by management; some after a few games played and run want to try their own skills at managing a character or the running of a game. By the time one is considered by us ready to game in Rohan, I expect them to have a thorough grasp of the rules for gaming. Games are less moderated there (at least that is my expectation, goal, ideal).

Originally Posted by Durelin

My other major concern deals with the distinction between "Fan-Fiction" and "Roleplaying" which is growing less and less, and which has been an issue I think practically since people started realizing that "Freestyle RPing" was just not working. I agree, trust me. I like fan-fiction, and I think displaying writers here on BD's work as true "fiction" is a wonderful thing, but turning a RPG into a fan-fiction practically before it's even started is an issue for me.

Forum roleplaying is great because it's writing and storytelling. But it's not the same as writing fiction. Roleplaying is about reactions, about being "in-character," not about writing about a character. You are the character. Sounds nerdy...well, I guess it is. The plot must be character driven, which means it must be driven by all the writers. Of course you should have a basic plot, of course a free-for-all is a waste of time, but you can't write a character based on a story. Once you have created the character, they're the ones you're writing the story as.

Writing fiction as a group takes a more cohesive group than roleplaying. Fiction is more definitively planned, and while stories can be character-driven, you're more mindful of the story as a whole. The window which you look through is widened, as writers plan out the path the story will take, and not necessarily just what their character will say or do next. Again, still sounds like fun to me, but it's different.

The story of a fiction becomes someone's or multiple people's baby. There's no way around it. It's not going to be left as open to others as an RPG is.

You’ve hit one of my sore points as an RP’er here. I completely agree with you on this. In fact, I find myself withdrawing more from RP’ing here because so many of the games do seem to me to be more like cooperatively written stories than they do Role Playing. There seems to be more of an END GOAL for the games and players in a lot of the games.....& I should narrow this down to me.....I feel like there are too many constraints put on my characters in order to meet the needs of the game in reaching that end goal. To be honest, I like those games where there is some basic location/history/plot starter and the players, through their characters, determine by the course of their writing what happens at the end. This sort of gaming focuses on the individuality of the characters and takes away (a good thing in my opinion) the use of one player’s character by another player to “move the storyline along”. I could rant on for reams about this, but I’ll stop here

& no, you’re not a nerd about this “being the character” approach. That’s what I do with all my characters and heavens-to-betsy I’m no ne..... (yessss, precious......of course you’re not.....despite the section of your closet devoted to Middle-earth outfits.....and that sword.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

I wanted to address one game in particular that has me torn. It's probably pretty easy to guess, because it hasn't even started yet...yes, Estelyn's "REB." I love the concept, I really do, and I'd love to be a part of such a parody, and the idea of "cameos" sounds really great (cameos are such fun! though actually I don't think I've ever written one...), but...is that really an RPG?

Yes, of course there will be character interaction between the cameos and the characters Esty plays, but, why are those cameo characters, if they are but cameos? I think they become - and I know this sounds really negative; I'm sorry, it's the only way I can manage to express it - "pawns" to the story. In RPGs, when cameos come into the game is determined by the game manager, and largely cameos have a decided upon "purpose." I don't know if this is quite what "cameos" will be like in this game, but they could well become that even if it's not the intention.

Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But I think it does mean that it's losing a lot of RPG qualities.

I have to disagree about this game. I think it’s more difficult to write a quality parody RPG. But I think the players have succeeded so far. And I do feel, when I read the game, that it is character driven.

Can’t say what the next installment will be like. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Originally Posted by Durelin

A lot about the RPing on BD has lost some RP qualities. In particular is the idea of writing "briefly" for another character. I don't think writing for another character should be allowed at all, and I regret having to do it to carry things along sometimes. So perhaps it should only be allowed when one needs to move the plot along (such as wrapping up a battle, bring a group to a destination, etc.). Also, I must admit I hate "saves." But again, they are good for when the plot needs to be moved along, whether it is because someone needs to get something in before the plot is moved along, or if it is already determined that the post that will fill in the save will move the plot along, having a specific purpose. And I do think "moving the plot along" has become a part of almost every action. I really like having the ability to just sit back and have some character interaction for a while, rather than always just trying to keep events and characters moving. I think it's often difficult to get around all the moving plot. Is it because there is too much plot? And if there is less plot, will that mean it is less interesting to RPers?

Another one of my bugaboos --- using another player’s character. And the only time I think it should be done is if the two players have arranged beforehand that one’s character can be written for by the other. I don’t think it right to do it “to move the plot along” and then say “sorry, I used your character a little; tell me if I need to edit”. Geez, I can feel all those players cringing in remembrance of PM’s from me about this”no-no”.

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

About the Barrow-Downs Middle-earth Fan Fiction forum(Good gravy, Pio, you’re not about to tell them you’re moderating there, too, are you.....nerd!) ---

Not sure a cooperative fan-fic would work there for me as moderator – it might. I’d have to think about it more. Logistics, time, etc.....

Anyway – thanks for bringing this all up, m’dear! Do keep the thoughts and comments flowing.

~*~ Pio

*her own disclaimer: I am not a loser for having read all this & commented on it.....just mildly obsessive/compulsive

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

Originally Posted by Pio

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

This difference is a tough one. When I started writing here I had a lots of concerns about the storyline (and I still do, at least somewhat) - and thence I think was more like a fan-fiction writer. But I think I have learned a thing or two on the way. Hopefully.

I was told that the RPG's are about interaction and playing the roles, yes I was. I don't deny that. But I must also say, that I was never introduced to this difference properly and the whole concept was a bit vague so that I had to learn to grasp it by trial and error by judging from how different people reacted to what I did. And I'm afraid I had certain people a bit frustrated with me on those early days of mine...

Now, reading what Dury says, is kind of opening my eyes to the problem the first time in an enlightening way. It seems so much clearer as it's formulated thus.

This is no reclamation. Far from it. The work the mods do here is just absolutely fantastic. I just think that if we wish to stress the playing of the roles -part of writing here we should make this difference more clear to anyone coming into these games - and cling to it ourselves as well.

And if people wish to make more plot-oriented stuff, let them do it and make that clear in the beginning of the game that is about to start. I think both ways of writing are interesting ones and can be highly gratifying, but a conflict easily ensues if people thrive for different goals within a same game.

Thanks Dury for this opening!

[Durelin]

Yes, new gamers are much fewer...and I guess I was trying to figure out a reason "why," if there is one. Ah, yes, I did forget that...it seems a possibility that the games, though they are definitely open to everyone, the RPGs on here might seem daunting to new players. Yes, that is their problem, I agree...people have to jump in. And I think it has been made as easy as possible for them to do so.

Really I suppose it's just the fact that we have fewer RPers these days and so there are fewer games. That is also related to what I was trying to say when I was talking about people getting bored: newer gamers often aren't satisfied by simply playing in the Inn, and want to get into a game.

Estelyn is right about "The Seventh Star." And I do wish I spent more time in the "Inns" in general. Unfortunately I'm attracted by the prospect of new game storylines and character possibilities involving death and destruction that you can't have in the Inns...I fail! Besides, I'm trying to keep my emo characters away from the cheery hobbit-filled Golden Perch...yes, that's it...

Originally Posted by Pio

The Shire is very labor intensive for the moderators. It’s the place where gamers (players & leader/proposers) can get the most assistance from us as they learn to game using the BD process. Some gamers enjoy that sort of hands on approach by management; some after a few games played and run want to try their own skills at managing a character or the running of a game. By the time one is considered by us ready to game in Rohan, I expect them to have a thorough grasp of the rules for gaming. Games are less moderated there (at least that is my expectation, goal, ideal).

I really like this description of the supposed "moving up." I personally don't view "moving up and moving on" as the goal, but I think it's easy for people to see it that way. I think the Rohan Gamers vs. Rohan Game Owners list is helpful, but I also think it can be harmful. It's not like your name is on a plaque, but, again, it can easily be seen that way. Perhaps part of less moderating in Rohan could be less moderating by the moderators in determining specifically who may and may not join games in Rohan (starting games is another matter). Maybe it should just be successfully playing in at least one Shire is required, and then whether or not a player who has met that simple requirement is actually ready to play in a game is up to the game owner's discretion, though the game owner obviously still will have to give way to the moderators' decision if they feel they need to step in?

I really don't see it as a big issue at all; I just had the thought, so I put it down...

Originally Posted by Pio

To be honest, I like those games where there is some basic location/history/plot starter and the players, through their characters, determine by the course of their writing what happens at the end.

I agree! Such a game takes even more cooperation, more really playing together than just writing a character's part of the story. Obviously there can be problems, but...not if you can pull off that cooperation.

Originally Posted by Pio

have to disagree about this game. I think it’s more difficult to write a quality parody RPG. But I think the players have succeeded so far. And I do feel, when I read the game, that it is character driven.

Can’t say what the next installment will be like. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Again, I did not mean to criticize the game, or make any comment on past installments. I agree that it is much more difficult to write good parody (particularly since, if parody is even slightly bad, it is just...well, pretty painful), and the invitation-only basis makes sense.

Originally Posted by Pio

Another one of my bugaboos --- using another player’s character. And the only time I think it should be done is if the two players have arranged beforehand that one’s character can be written for by the other. I don’t think it right to do it “to move the plot along” and then say “sorry, I used your character a little; tell me if I need to edit”. Geez, I can feel all those players cringing in remembrance of PM’s from me about this”no-no”.

Yes...I don't very often actually get upset at all about people using my character, but I'd rather they didn't. (I do recall one time getting extremely upset when a character, though I agreed to have him killed, was killed off hastily and barely mentioned in a post...*shudders*) I'd also much, much rather not use anyone else's characters even a bit...and of course, I say that, but have been guilty of using and borrowing characters right and left in RPGs. I try not to use them too much, but, particularly when I am a game manager and I feel like the plot and driving it along is what people expect, I find myself doing that more. I think I need to rethink my playing and managing style in that sense.

Originally Posted by Pio

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

And I like the idea of plot driven writing quite a bit, too, and am certainly not adverse to writing in a plot driven story. But I also really want to write in a character driven RPG.

Originally Posted by Pio

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

Yes, I think it would help, at least. And that's all it needs to do. Nogrod makes an excellent, excellent point...perhaps the point underlying everything I've rattled on about: communication. Perhaps that is what we are lacking. Not communicating about specific games - well, we all know those discussion/planning threads get their use! - but just communication about this whole RPing thing in general. I think this should be part of the communication on discussion threads, and perhaps is overlooked. (I know I overlook it...I get too caught up in the details a lot, that I fail to see the bigger picture. Of course, I've also been known to get stuck in the reverse.)

Pio's suggestion of communication regarding what "RPing" is in terms of a specific game has got to be a good thing.

And Nogrod - No one was upset with you! I know I was just a tad frustrated because I had trouble seeing things from your angle, and then expressing my own view. This is all difficult to talk about.

Thanks for listening to me, and for this discussion. It's great to have!

I am very pleasantly surprised to find that I have successfully communicated an idea, Nogrod! Thank you!

*continues to proudly display her nerd-dom...

-Durelin

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Yes, new gamers are much fewer...and I guess I was trying to figure out a reason "why," if there is one.

Not sure but I have a hunch that this plays into it: did RPs begin to lose the number of new players roughly about the same time that 'werewolf' started at the Downs?

[Firefoot]

I think you also have to take into account the fact that the Downs itself has not gaining as many new members.

[Himaran]

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up already, but the sudden surge of new members and players (including myself) directly coincided with the systematic release of the Lord of the Rings movies. That was a huge publicity boost and suddenly everyone was interested in LOTR again. I think now we are seeing a gradual shift back to a balance, where fans of the books remain and fans of the movies will disappear.

[Bêthberry]

I do think Werewolf bit into the rpg urge and redirected it. However, it might be possible to inspire some action at The Seventh Star, even if only to provide a bit of documentary nostalgia about Oxonmoot.

Hmm. . . .

[Mnemosyne]

(Am I even allowed to post my thoughts here?...)

For me a large part of the issues with the RPGs is that the ones that we do have going take up so much time and energy from the players that they last far longer than the original "expected time commitment."

For me the difference between WW and RPGs is that WW is like a very long sprint, whereas the RPGs are more like marathons. And since you must rely on other people to remain just as committed it's hard to even make that first step when you see so much else (even in inns!) flag as people's personal circumstances change. I do have a couple of characters and even an idea for a game or two, but I don't see enough other people who have the time to help create a game right now--especially if they are involved in other games that are ongoing and flagging...

It's a downright shame to me, because (as I've mentioned on the WW threads) Werewolf is often far too exhausting for me, whereas I think I could manage something "slow and steady" for an RPG. But you know that a Werewolf game will only last for x amount of time, so if you have that time you can commit to that.

I love the verbal talents of the 'Downers--their writing styles and their takes on Tolkien's world are much more consonant with mine than with the more regular community of writers I'm involved with, and since even before I've joined I've longed to create something together with them.

At any rate it seems paltry for me to even post on a thread like this one, in a forum that is reserved only for the most ancient and venerable of 'Downers. But that's my two cents on what's happened to the Roleplaying community here.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

(Am I even allowed to post my thoughts here?...)

Of course you are! See the comment on Rimbaud's first post here.

If I recall correctly, all members can post in the Inns at any of the rpg forums (or fora if you please) or even a discussion thread such as this one.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me a large part of the issues with the RPGs is that the ones that we do have going take up so much time and energy from the players that they last far longer than the original "expected time commitment."

Me too. And I'm the one CAUSING the protracted play... can't bring myself to end it. Love the characters too much.... That said, I doubt I'd start another one. Or even play in another one, these days; even a three-monther in the Shire. Crazy busy with family & work.

But oh, how I miss the better games. They were more than games. It's like writing a fanfic, and finally ending it and essentially going into mourning or grieving. (Who, me???) And it's also the characters (as well as the team writers) that I miss.

[Durelin]

I do miss the days when there were several RPGs moving along at the same time - certainly not always as quickly as people would like and often going beyond the set time-span, but not lasting for a year...or two...or three as they are now.

But that being said, I was always slow with RPGs, and didn't do well with the pressure of others depending on me for the story to keep moving. And I must say that the reason the Downs is the only place I RP anymore (and is the only place I've 'consistently' RPed), is because I am one of those people who can work at that pace because, really, I can't fully commit to a project even for a few weeks (partially because I do have to fully commit to projects like schoolwork), even though I try.

The 'lack' of writers is probably in part because there aren't the same number of games being started up to be a part of. Because games aren't good at ending. But...do you force a game along, or do you let it become whatever the writers make it into? Really, if you look at some of the finished games, some of them were forced along to meet (or at least somewhat meet) their deadlines. Did that make them bad? No, but they certainly could have turned out differently, even if they never finished. If you know what I mean.

I've plotted many a new game. I love starting them (keeping up with them is another matter entirely, of course...). I'm thinking of doing a game over January that I will (hahaha) force myself to keep short. Riiiiight.

[Durelin]

I am embarrassed to post on here for at least two reasons...one, that at my age (or is that at every age?) I look back year to year and think 'what was I thinking?' Two...because I am the worst at keeping my commitments in (parts of) the RPing realm of the Downs. (I just got back from yet another disappearance and here I am posting this stuff)

But I'm going to anyway...as you've noticed...

RP activity on the Downs...revisited.

I know it's not my place to suggest major changes to the RP sections here, but...I'm feeling like there is a need for it if they are going to survive/serve a purpose.

How to make the RP forums easier for newcomers to get into, how to make them appear more active and more welcoming, how to reignite interest, how to keep things faster paced... Anything anyone would like to discuss?

Also I miss our RP mods soooo much.

[Snowdog]

Having only been in on creating and starting one RP story here on Barrow Downs (Lingering Darkness in the Shire - had to quit due to real life issues), I have to say I found it hard to open up with a free-flowing creativity. It seemed to be more 'RP story construction' than 'RP story creation'. The supposed tale 'time limit' and requests for re-edits of posts, moderator re-edits of posts, and PM questions over some minor details did little to encourage my creativity, and it actually felt more like work to write instead of enjoyment. Its likely why I didn't re-enter the RP realm here after I managed to get life sorted and was able to spend more time online.

That said..I'm full of ideas on Tolkien Middle Earth RP story outlines and settings, and even have some few post Ringwar mash-ups, but I again have to say I'm not really comfortable writing RP here on the Barrow Downs.

Just my 2¢

Edit: A month later and I guess nobody wants to, or is here to discuss this. Oh well.

[Durelin]

I agree with you, Snowdog. You find yourself bogged down with all the planning and details, and of course by all of the expectations. For some time now RPing here has been about meeting certain expectations, performing in a certain way. It does end up feeling like work.

I spent a lot of time here and am very fond of the Downs but there's a reason I found it hard time and again to keep up with RPs, to find inspiration to write here, to return to RPs after being busy or losing inspiration for a time... I used to stress out about RPs all the time!

I appreciate RPing that is 'realistic' within the world (to a degree); I appreciate good writing...I think rules are necessary, but there is such thing as over-structuring. And what develops on any site/forum is a certain mindset or style. Am I to say a certain mindset or style is wrong or bad? No, but I may or may not enjoy it.

And what do I matter? I don't. Not everyone is going to enjoy/agree with what rules, style, whatever you come up with. But the RP sections here have been struggling for some time now, so I thought it might be a good time for opinions to be discussed (rather than me just posting a complaint that you're not doing things how I want you to).

[Mithadan]

Hmmm. Durelin (and anyone else who might be following along or interested), the "conditions" that led us to create the present RPG structure do not currently exist. The whole thing began when someone spontaneously started a virtual party. It was creative, well-received, and, by and large, everyone was pretty well-behaved. Soon a few odd and end RPGs were started in the Barrow-Downs announcements forum and, after interest seemed to develop, we opened a new RPG forum, as an experiment. We admins generally ignored that forum (I was the only one that RPed with any frequency).

When the movies hit, the RPG forum exploded. Games were started, lasted ten posts, and were abandoned. Others went on forever, effectively creating cliques that excluded new players. People who could barely string five sentences together were randomly butting into games run by more advanced RPers. Members demanded access to games when no new ones were starting. People began misbehaving, fighting, etc. RPGs started that had absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien. We got more complaints from that forum (at that time) than any other. Something had to change (and banning RPGS was definitely considered).

We invited a group of members to caucus and, after a lot of debate, came up with the current system. The idea was mutliple levels for different skills. Prove yourself and you graduate to the next level. Higher levels have less restrictions. Games have to be based upon a definite Tolkien-based plot or theme with a definable end (no more never ending stories). We decided that Moderators were needed to ensure good behavior, help avoid fights, and act as mentors for newbies. It worked pretty good -- at least the chaos was over and it was better than no RPGs at all.

ANYWAY. The movies are years behind us (for now) and things are quiet again. If there is sufficient interest and someone can come up with concrete suggeations, I'd be willing to speak with the other Admins and what mods remain (if I can get anyone's attention) to discuss changes. No promises.

Durelin the floor is yours. Let's hear it...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me. Once upon a time, I was an active RPGer. I've taken part in Shire games (Prisoner of Númenor, Assigned to Mordor (ATM), Island of Sorrow) and I ran Assigned to Mordor II (ATM 2); and I've taken part in Rohan settlements (I was a frequent participant in The White Horse Inn, one of the founding folks of the Eorling Mead Hall, and a regular of the Scarburg Mead Hall (where characters I created are still Very Important, though they've been inherited by others), and I took part in most or all offshoots thereof); and for a time I was an active writer in Gondor's Tapestry of Dreams.

I still lurk as a non-participatory consulting gossip. RPGers with questions shoot me PMs or pounce on me on Facebook, and I like that level of participation: I get to help out, but I don't have to take responsibility.

Now that I've spewed my credentials, here is how I read the situation:

There is one basic Very Big Problem that keeps people from committing to anything:

RPGs take too long.

This is caused in part by (and in return, causes) the secondary Very Big Problem:

Players are unreliable.

Obviously the constraints of everyday life are going to go a long way to determining how often and how much any one writer can contribute, but when most RPGs begin with maybe ten writers, and have an expected time line of two months, and then two years later you've got two writers typing furiously, trying to just finish the stupid story so that they can have some mental closure even though it's turned into a chore instead of anything fun... That's unpleasant.

In all honesty, can we really expect anybody to commit to an ungodly number of years to finish a project?

I think one way to revitalize the RPG forum is to impose a stricter expectation that games will not go on into eternity unless (like the Inns) they are designed to do so. If you say your game is going to be done by December, by Eru it needs to be completed by Thanksgiving.

I submit that this would provide a more manageable expectation. You can't expect players to maintain enthusiasm for a story with no direction or end point. That's like expecting an audience to remain cognizant through a full showing of the movie Australia.

While subplots are excellent (and typically helpful when it comes to adding nuance and complexity to a story arc), a STORY is:

-a series of related events with a clear beginning, middle, and end, with a defining moment which causes a significant change in the character or characters.

If we can focus (for a time anyway) on simplifying each RPG into a cohesive story with one solid, identifiable plot line, perhaps outlined with specific plot points as achievable milestones that the writers work actively toward, I think we can get writers to commit. I'm tempted to run a clearly outlined game to test this theory. I have one in mind, in any case. But that's not entirely relevant.

Dury? I know I swiped your podium... take it back and give us a rousing speech?

[Mithadan]

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Thanks Feanor. Other comments? Durelin? We need more than 2 people expressing interest to even begin thinking about this.

For the record, Counselor, you have 3 Downers commenting here, not 2, although I suppose you could say one expressed disinterest.

[Mithadan]

Objection overruled. Proceed.

[Mnemosyne]

As someone who got here "too late" to be involved in much of anything, but who would really love to do some concrete RPs, I hope you don't mind my ducking in.

First of all, what Fea said. The RPs that never end have to go, because the longer an RPG lasts, the more likely people's RL circumstances are going to change and they're going to have to drop out of the game. This, in itself, isn't a problem per se--this happens in Werewolf all the time. It's a problem of critical mass. Even if not everyone can be playing at one time, enough people need to be to keep the plot moving forward. This is more complicated in an RP situation as well, because if you have three players who have the time and desire to post, but they're all playing minor characters who don't really interact with one another, it's going to be harder to keep the ball rolling.

One way around this situation (and it's not a very desirable one) is shared characters, or at least understudies. In March there was a month-long RP challenge thing for Back-to-Middle-Earth Month, and because I knew my commitment time would be spotty, I shared a character with another author. We emailed one another to see who would post next, depending on our time and commitments, and luckily my really busy/not feeling inspired times were all times when she had the time and energy to post for him--and vice versa. Because I have a number of characters who are much closer to me, that I wouldn't share, I understand if that feels weird, but we created the character together with the expectation that we would have slightly different ideas of what we wanted to do with him, and we ran with it. Certainly character quality goes down in this situation, but I would prefer "okay" posts to no posts at all.

In any case I think that the RP fora need to be leaner and meaner. Gondor has long been naught but a dusty mathom room, and that breaks my heart. I don't know whether that means we should consolidate all of our playing into one forum, though, or keep Rohan and the Shire separate. The elitist in me wants to keep the two separate, because I really do feel that the net writing quality in the two is different, but if we want to jump-start this thing we may need all the help we can get.

So, 1). Definitely have shorter games. That means not only having a deadline, but also having a cleaner plot. I'd love to see some two-week RPs (okay, we can make them longer) that cover the plot equivalent of one chapter in LotR. If the players can dedicate another two weeks to the plot, move another chapter along; if not, put it on hold. There's nothing saying you can't keep the same characters, setting, and big plot between two RPs, and I think a lot of people would be happier with ending an RP on a concrete episodic note than trying to drag it out to the Grand Finish. Keep the subplots to a minimum.

1). will mean having a dedicated core of 3 or so players who don't mind moving the plot along and not waiting for the others to post. Players should be familiar enough with each other's characters that they can carry them with the party even if the writer isn't there to post, trying to take the middle-road between forgetting them and god-modding. Obviously the RP founder should be one of these, and no one should found an RP if he or she won't have the time and energy to see it through. Smaller chunks of time should make predicting that easier.

The other thing is, once and whenever we settle on RP reforms, we need to test them out immediately and prove that they work. If they do, and if we get enough people who are willing to play to keep them running, then we can add back in some of the longer timelines and more complicated subplots.

Well, those are my thoughts, and I'm more than happy to admit that I don't have nearly enough experience in these matters to know whether they'll be much good. But I do want to see the RPs get some life in them again, and see a finished RPG in my Downsian lifetime!

[Durelin]

I doubt this is going to fit with the Downs overall style...but here goes...

I guess I'll just toss out possibilities. But basically what I think is necessary is a more open field. Certainly you have rules. Certainly you guide people to RPing canonically (which includes not messing around with canons, which I have been guilty of myself in the past :x). But...the style of, here is a game project. Someone has to run it. You have your plot set out, perhaps even in great detail. You need a certain number of players. Those players create characters that specifically fit in your plot and will play out your plot. They may or may not affect the plot at all. It puts a lot on the person running the game, and it takes a lot away from the players. When a game owner disappears for a time, the players are lost. When you lose a player or two, the game can be derailed if they played important characters.

I understand (though I did not witness) the change from an open RPing forum to a very firmly structured system. If you want to encourage a certain 'level' of RPing, you have to have certain rules. But I think it went too far. I think that it went too far into the realm of elitism. (A natural result of having different 'tiers' of RPing, for one thing.) And it's just clunky.

So, ideas I'll just toss out there. I'm trying to fit what I've seen work for RPing into the setting of the Downs discussion forum.

Return to one open RP forum. Maybe keep an inn, maybe not. Keep the same basic rules/expectations of what a 'post' is. Make it clear that no one is to RP any canon characters or involve them (except perhaps a passing mention or something) in their RPs. (This rule will help keep players from starting plots that turn into crazy fan-fic.)

Then let anyone start an RP -- let that be a RP with a plot, or an open-ended RP. Maybe have a separate 'RP Discussion' forum in which people can use to plot RPs or look for other RPers. Maybe someone doesn't want to run a specific storyline, but is interested in collaborating with just one, maybe two other people on some RPing and see where it goes. (They choose a setting, figure out how the characters meet up, and then they're off to doing things.)

Those who are looking for a specific 'level' of RP can pick and choose who they RP with, as they wish. Those who aren't looking to dedicate themselves to someone's plot can do something of a smaller scale.

And what about RPs 'ending' or not? Well, that's up to the players. If they don't ever reach an end, they don't reach an end. Periodically remove threads that have not been posted on in however long, and leave it at that. If the players want to return to a thread that has been removed, it's up to them to restart it.

And then there's the question of character bios... You can continue with the current method and have people post character bios to the discussion threads in which they plot their RPs. If you keep an inn (or multiple inns, if desired, to have inns in various areas of ME), you can continue a list of characters there. Players can choose whether they want to use a character just for a specific plot, or if they want to play a character throughout different plots. They can either re-post their bios for whatever they're involved in, or they can refer people to the bio posted elsewhere (and whoever's running the plot can ask them to re-post their bio, or can ask them to make a new character).

A lot of RPs have an 'application process' you do in order to play. That only works in a certain type of RP. Here you could continue to use the idea that players have to post in the inn first, if you wanted some kind of application process. They'd have to create a character that would be accepted to the inn thread, and that would be their 'test.' But that's a lot of work for whoever is moderating/running the inn thread.

Basically...loosen things up a bit. Allow for more spontaneity, which is not inherently bad. Reduce the amount of paperwork, the procedures. Let players feel less like they're being graded. Yes, this will take moderating, but not as much on the back end. It will be about stepping in when necessary rather than having to handle everything from the start.

And once you have a RPing section established, it becomes clear what kind of RPing takes place there. So, if you have an established group of players in your RP section, everyone who joins is going to see how they RP, what the protocols are, etc., and they are going to realize that they have to follow those protocols if they are to 'fit in.' So if you're afraid of a bonanza of warrior-princesses and vampires and werewolves (Sauron's buds, ya know)...that's not going to take root if you have RPs going on that are more 'realistic' to the setting/canon and RPers who aren't at all interested in those things. It's very hard to establish that from the get-go, but since the RP sections were established and reestablished years ago...hopefully a lot of that will carry over?

Does having a certain 'level' of RPing make things more fun? Yes, but how do you determine that 'level' from the get-go? Encourage good writing, 'realistic' RPs, and leave it at that. There's a trend in the forum RP world that is to call yourself an 'advanced,' 'intermediate,' or 'beginner' RPer. As soon as you put labels on it, or structure your RP around supposed 'levels,' it just stops being welcoming. It takes away from the fun. It's daunting to new players, and keeps current players edgy, wondering if their posts are going to live up to the standards 'advanced' RPers. Etc.

So...that's why I think it's better to just allow a level and style of RPing to develop based on what the moderator(s) and existing players are doing.

As Mithadan pointed out...the movie-craze is long over. Those who are spending time on the interwebs talking about or RPing Middle-earth are a different breed. The dynamic has changed...I think it's safer now to open things up.

It's always a challenge to make a RP section work...and if the feeling is that an open RP section dirties the reputation of the forum, then of course there shouldn't be one. But...this is all just for fun, isn't it?

And you're probably reading this (especially as a mod or admin) thinking...you expect someone to keep up with all this? I know it seems like a lot of work. I don't know how much it will be. It all depends on the kind of players and number of players you end up with at any given time. It also depends on how tight of a rein you feel you need to have on everything. How pristine you want every thread to look. How well you feel everyone must write. How much you want to moderate 'chattiness.' So...yea, it's a lot easier to just leave things as they are, especially since there's barely any activity so not much to keep up with. And so asking the admins and mods to make changes is asking them to do work. So I understand completely if it's just not worth the time to make any changes, regardless of who suggests them.

Re Fea's suggestions: RP ending dates used to be much more strictly enforced, but I don't think that encouraged people to keep up with them. It becomes less about writing/playing the game and more about just *finishing it* somehow. Just working through the steps of the plot as quickly as you could (which often meant the game owner just pushing things ahead periodically until the set 'end' was reached). That's not fun to me, but that's just me. Anyway, having a timeline and end dates and the like just makes it feel more like work to me.

I guess one of the big underlying problems is getting new players and keeping them. I'm not sure how to do that. You can make the RP forums more welcoming, have more open opportunities for RP, but at the same time...they have to get here somehow. And a lot of people are looking for forums dedicated entirely to RP, when they're looking to RP. The age of the RP section in a discussion forum seems to be long past, as RPs now more commonly take up entire forums. So this discussion may be kind of pointless. (Random note, if you search 'middle earth forum roleplaying' on Google, BD shows up on page 3)

(I hope this is coherent. I'm battling a cold so I'm a little empty-headed.)

Thanks for reading (especially since it's ridiculously long). I am surprised to find any responses and I really appreciate your response and openness, Mithadan.


Edit: Crossed with Mnemo.

[Folwren]

Howdy. I just noticed there was activity on this thread and decided to look in. Glad I did, although I admit to only speed reading the posts. (Sorry.) I think that a lot of the ideas put forth are good.

I would like to see more activity on the RPG threads. However, I kind of wonder if changing the rules and loosening things up will really be effective. I mean, we don't have very many new comers anyway. If loosening up means getting some old players back, I'm all for it. But it won't necessarily bring in any more new players.

Quite honestly, I think that there would be more RPing if WW was not such an over-arching part of this entire forum. So many people will spend HOURS every other day on a WW game and not show up at all for weeks on any RPGs they're part of. Is that a problem? Well, no. As Dury said, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to have fun. Is it annoying? Heck, yes, for those of us who aren't obsessed.

And that's all. I don't have anything to add to what Mnemo and Dury said. I'm all for any ideas that will improve activity in the RPGs. Only, please don't stop the Mead Hall thread, I am having so much fun there.

-- Foley

[Formendacil]

My own RP credentials are somewhat thinner than others here, but I've been reading along, and hopefully you'll forgive me contributing. As a RP mod from a (somewhat poorer quality, writing-wise) forum elsewhere, I don't have any solutions... but I do have my two pence.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I would like to see more activity on the RPG threads. However, I kind of wonder if changing the rules and loosening things up will really be effective. I mean, we don't have very many new comers anyway. If loosening up means getting some old players back, I'm all for it. But it won't necessarily bring in any more new players.

Quite honestly, I think that there would be more RPing if WW was not such an over-arching part of this entire forum. So many people will spend HOURS every other day on a WW game and not show up at all for weeks on any RPGs they're part of. Is that a problem? Well, no. As Dury said, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to have fun. Is it annoying? Heck, yes, for those of us who aren't obsessed.

Folwren makes a couple good points here. The first, in particular, bears noting, I think. The Downs is not attracting new members in droves, and those it does are not always likely to be RPers. While I think it's possible they stay away from the RP fora because they're a monolithically daunting, separate, and rule-laden part of the forum, the fact of the matter is that we don't have enough new members to really be focused on getting them into RPs.

Thus, I agree with her about needing to focus on player retention/getting back old players. Speaking for myself, the never-ending games are killer, and need tighter--and shorter--timeframes (in this respect, I agree with Mnemo generally). Not only would I be more likely to sign up for a two-week campaign or a month-long story that I actually thought would take that long, I think everyone would be more likely to actually participate, once joined.

Folwren's point about WW is valid... but I have no more solution than she does, though I do want to go on record as saying that WW siphons off a lot of RPing energy from the stable, committed members of the forum, and that as long as it continues, we're going to have a personnel problem here.

*IF* we could relatively sure that a two/three week or month-long game would actually last that long, I think one could reasonably ask players to refrain from playing WW at the same time... but, obviously, that might detract from people's desire to RP.

[Folwren]

I brought up this subject with my sister, who was here at one time as Finduilas. Anyway, she said that ensuring shorter games would make it easier for players to commit. She said, "If a game was going to last two weeks, I could commit to posting once a day for two weeks. But if it's going to last two years, I can't commit to that." So, she thought shorter games would be a good idea.

[Nogrod]

I do warmly welcome this discussion taking place.

There are so many things to comment on... but let me make a few.


I think one of the main reasons to many games stalling (besides WW ) is that the ambitions of the mods of the games - and the possible "inner circle" of writers - have sky-rocketed.

My first RPG was Arry's Outracing the Flames on 2006. There was a simple mission for the players and the mod had planned a few obstacles on the road. Even if it went for longer that had been planned, it ended in 5 months and in an orderly fashion. The last one here I think?

Now as it was my first RPG ever, I might feel some warmth to the experience it would not deserve otherwise, but it was well-run game that stayed focused. And the thing was; it was kept simple.

I have written in a few RPG's after that (Treachery of Men & The Fellowship of the Fourth Age come to mind as experiences), but they were already quite complicated in what came into the plotlines and detail. So many players dropped off when time went by as it took so long and they required such involvement.

Now one could say that hey, that's why we have these different "levels" of RPG'ing. In Shire (Outracing the Flames) we have these fairly simple games and in Rohan the more requiring ones (ToM & FotFA). And it is a fair point.

But it seems we have not have those easy and straightforwards Shire-games in years - and the ambitions of the Rohan-games have gone maybe too far?

Don't read me wrong here, I love those multilayered and sophisticated games that have a lot of complexity myself (and I couldn't see myself writing in something so tightly mod-guided/dictated & simplified game as the "Outracing the Flames" was anymore).


So if we have both a) less new people joining, and b) nothing to offer them (the simpler "first stage" games), then no wonder the renaissance will not dawn on 'Downs roleplaying section. I've seen many newcomers joining those more ambitious games and dropping off... (to be honest a few "seniors" did drop off as well - mainly because of time constraints, which should be telling...)


Also I think it's important to remember that the Mead Halls should be basically very different from the more focused RPG's. And at least on paper (well, on screen) the idea of there being two different Mead Halls, one for the "beginners" and one for the more "advanced" is a good one as they can then have two different focuses.

When I joined the Green Dragon back in the days it was more or less just one party going on where the idea was to socialise with others, learn the basics of RPG'ing with other players - and then move on to the "real games". Like you pop in at an inn, meet some people and have a drink with them - and continue your journey, maybe with a new friend. I haven't followed the Golden Perch that much but from the little I have seen, it is different.

Also I think that it is a good idea in principle that the Eorling Mead Hall / Scarburg Mead Hall should be more plot oriented while still retaining the air of being a place you can just put your nose into and join the game anyday.

But as a co-mod of the current Scarburg Mead Hall I must say that the concept isn't working anymore that well it could, or it did. The open-endedness of the plotlines and timelines, added with the different RL situations of the players over long periods of time, individual levels of interest in particular plots being played etc. make a plot driven Mead Hall kind of a hybrid between the "just socialising" games and the real "plot driven" games. It could take on the best features of both (and at times it actually does it) but it can also take on the worst features of both.


But if there are considerably less new people joining in, it is clear there is no return to the ongoing parties of the old Green Dragon, after which those keeping it up naturally & understandaby turn into more plot- or friend-based writing which further scares outsiders away from posting.

At the same time there is the danger that the Rohanian Mead Hall will stagnate into a game played by the few "striders" already known to each other and where newcomers don't dare to come into as it looks to complicated and too much of an insider thing. (We actually had a burst of fresh blood there when the modship changed there two years ago and managed to recruit a host of new writers there - sadly only a few of them are left today.



So what am I suggesting after all this rambling?

I think we should do well to open some fairly basic games and try to lure the new 'Downers into them. I mean we do have them all the time - and I actually think we have gained a lot more active 'Downers the last half year than in a long time...

That would require a mod who was not trying to fullfill her or his ambitions there but being more like an experienced fellow encouraging the newcomers to delve into RPG'ing while keeping it simple and doable. And this is not pointing fingers at anyone. What I think is that we need someone to mod those "Shire-games" who would be not too enthusiastic about it being her/his game, but like a pedagogical person as a forum for the ones who play to learn their skills and get excited about it. (Okay, the teacher-me speaking here, I can see)


Also we should consider the role and meaning of the Mead Halls again. How to make the Golden Perch a place new people would crave to go into? How to make the Scarburg Mead Hall take the best features of both open and plot-driven games while avoiding the bad ones?


And in the end, we should also acknowledge that the world is not the same it was five or ten years ago - and thus also people and their interests are different. So not everything is the fault of you and me - the mods and active players of the RPG's. It's just the wolrd that changes - and we all with it.


EDIT: SOrry this became this long. I never seem to be able to be concise...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

a few of these principles, I have a game written up that would take two months/eight weeks. The plot is simple, and there are built in check points each week in terms of where the writing needs to aim. The construction is simple in terms of required characters, so it would be easy to write people out if necessary, but probably wouldn't be necessary.

And I have no problem cracking the whip to keep things moving along. As Nog says, the game wouldn't be an epic adventure, full of modly grandeur and personal fulfillment; it would be a basic example and/or pedagogical experiment.

Is this something there is interest in watching play out? With it we would see pretty easily and pretty quickly if making changes to game length and complexity requirements would draw a firmer commitment from more people.

After all, it's very well and good to discuss potential solutions, but without seeing if they work pragmatically, it's all just hot air...

[Nogrod]

A very good idea Fea.

And I would also like to see some "recruitment" taking place - like asking the new 'Downers to join and try it out - whilst having a few "seniors" around in the game to give an example (like either parties involved all the time or as "visiting characters" - which we used to have back in the days). Not too high or ambitious or self-serving, but like they were not too interested in their own characters doing the best game ever, but playing it thus the newbies could get the max out of it.

If we're going to try that, I could try to find time for it to participate in that mode of playing it for the others.

And really, when has there been a Shire game on offer the last time? Valier's game* starting like three years ago?


* That's actually a telling case. I remember Valier asking me if I would like to join the game, it was something like early fall, and I had to decline it as I had so many things going on that time both in RL and 'Downs. But as I was interested in the game we decided that I should then make a character that would come in at a later stage, quite like on the first new twist of the game planned. Well, the game has never reached the point my character could come in - even if it has been near it a few times during the years...

[Bêthberry]

Just wanted to pop in and say that, as I have lurked from time to time at the Scarburg Mead Hall, I've been impressed with the way that it is being modded.

I like how Noggie asks questions of the characters, basing action on the characters' behavioural traits, as well as offering other open-ended possibilities. My guess is this approach has been responsible for the on-going participation of many of the new Rohan gamers. I think I see a teacher's hand at play here--and I mean that in the most positive light and not at all a pedagogical pedantry.

It's been years since I read anything in The Shire and just as long since I've had much time to devote to RPGing, so that's about all I can add.

It's good to see some discussion here and that people still care about gaming on the Downs.

[Mithadan]

Agreed. It is good to see some needed discussion. Frankly, we need a bit more.

There are a few relatively active RPGs on the forums, and I'd like to see more players post and give their views, before beginning to try and focus our considerations. I note some obvious holes or omissions in people's posts, whether intentional or unknowing. Can anyone guess at what I am talking about?

[Firefoot]

I just wanted to pop in here and say that I've been following along with the discussion, though I don't have a whole lot to add myself...

I've been back at the Downs and posting in the Scarburg Meadhall after only being around very spottily for the last couple of years, and I'm remembering how much I used to love the RPG's here. I would love to get involved in a game, if we want to try and start up a new one or two.

As far as the plot-driven vs. character-driven argument goes, I have played in both sorts and really enjoyed both types (I think my favorite RPG that I've ever written in was Shadow of the West which was extremely character-driven, but that was also what could be called a much higher-complexity game for the purpose of this discussion). For the purpose of drumming up some new players and trying to bring the RPG fora back to life, though, I think some simpler, plot-driven games would be better - something fairly ready-made like what Fea was describing.

As far as the structure of the fora go, I think it would be good to keep two levels anyway... Rohan for somewhat more complicated games and the Shire for more basic games. I don't think it needs to be quite so regimented with who's allowed to play where, though; the distinction would more be for the type of game and the commitment level that each would require. The emphasis shouldn't be so much on "the good gamers go here and the noobs go there." Rohan (and especially Gondor!) always seemed so intimidating to me when I started RPG'ing and I don't think that's how it needs to be. Actually, the whole RPG thing was so intimidating to me when I first got interested that I actually read along with an entire game before joining one myself - there are an awful lot of rules, so it sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is.

Durelin mentioned the idea of getting rid of character bios. I don't like this idea at all. One of my favorite parts (I'm not even kidding) of RPG's is getting started and making up a new character to fit into the story. For me, writing the character bio really helps me get into character from the start, as well as giving me an idea of what other people's characters are going to be like and how mine might interact with them. If you will, it jump-starts the creative process.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that at least for now, things need to be tightened up a little on the game owners/moderators side in that a couple of shorter, well structured games might do a lot to drum up some interest, but also maybe loosened up a bit from the perspective of new players. I was daunted at first, but I don't think there's any need for that - it's really not that complicated, and new players shouldn't feel too intimidated to try.

[Durelin]

I didn't recommend getting rid of character bios, just allowing character bios to be re-used (which I don't think there's actually a rule against currently, but perhaps a sort of un-stated rule that you should use a new character every game unless you're doing a sequel or something of that nature). I apologize if it came across differently.

Mithadan - Can't say I enjoy guessing games. The biggest 'omission' from this thread (and not necessarily from individual posts) currently in my eyes is our remaining active RP mod, piosenniel, whom I expect is waiting to pounce on us at any moment. (PLEASE DO)

*sits on hands because she really has nothing to add*

[Firefoot]

Durelin - sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Folwren]

I'll chime in with Fea's post and say that if a simple game needs to be put up no the Shire, I've got an idea tucked in my sleeve which I've had for more than a year now...

-- Foley

[Mithadan]

Durelin, I have asked Pio to peek at this thread -- I doubt that she'll "pounce" on anyone. Sorry if I was cryptic. I am still trying to gather some information.

Everyone, please feel free to continue voicing your views.

Thanks.

[Thinlómien]

Glad I realised I can read this thread although I'm not a Gondor poster. I think that pretty much sums up one of the problems we have: it's too bureucratic and elitistic. Mostly we simply don't have enough players to keep RPGs going on three different "levels". I would be for having just one RPG forum but I won't protest to having two. Even with one level we could keep a novice inn where everybody would have to start and we could have RPGs where you need certain amount of experience to take part.

Now, to ramble a bit about my personal history as a RPer here because I think it's quite a good example: I have played in several RPGs since something like 2005 or 2006, both finished and unfinished. If I discount the inns, the RPGs I have played in are:

-Númenórean Blood Runs Black (closed after the owner and several key writers disappeared)
- Life of Gold (owner and several key players disappeared, but the game was finished after a few years of slow posting, mostly thanks to my stubbornness)
- Blood Run (had major difficulties and periods of inactivity until was a bit clumsily but beautifully finished upon the return of one of the game owners)
- Tears of Mirrormere (originally owned by Groin Redbeard and me, future questionable thanks to GR disappearing and me being inactive)
- An Adventure of Hobbit Proportions (game owner had a baby so we put it on an indefinite pause)
- Homeward Bound (game owner disappeared soon after the start of the game, players gave up)

I think the fates of these games tell a lot about the RPGs in the 'downs. In effect, I agree with Fea&co - our games have become too long and complicated.

Speaking from experience, I think the game owners should be more committed and have a firmer hand. I'd adore it if the game owners had to make a rough weekly plan about the proceeding of the plot. That would help them know what happens and keep the RPG from totally getting too big. The players should also know the schedule so they could post according to it. There's been too much secrecy - surprises are good but players should not be kept ignorant. I don't mean we should lose the flexibility, but there should be more guidelines. I would be a much better game owner if I knew exactly what I was doing.

I think what I'm aiming at is that I think we should have two kind of RPGs:
1) short term RPGs which take several weeks and you're required to post say every other day. These would be ideal for those who have lots of time in their hands but can't commit for a long time.
2) long term RPGs, meaning about half a year length. The game owner should have the weekly plan I discussed above and keep the thread moving. This would be better for those who can commit but don't have more than an hour or two per week to commit to the game.

I'm not sure if the divide should be made official or not, but players should have a clear idea of what they're signing up to. I think both types of RPGs would have their supporters and that we still have people around who can commit to longer games, as long as they don't take years instead of say 3-10 months.

...comments?