|
 |
|
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
10-29-2008, 10:35 AM
|
#81 |
|
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
 |
nope - it was decided a loooong time ago, that the round world, while later in conception, left too many holes to fill, most of the legendarium was written from that POV and the revisions were highly tentative.
Of course you are free to begin your own round-world version at any time  .
|
|
|
|
01-20-2011, 09:01 AM
|
#82 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
With the farther discussions and specially the findings in this Posting we have again inroduced some changes in the chapter structer. I give the chapter structer here in full:
Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-25-2011 at 11:25 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
02-05-2013, 09:41 AM
|
#83 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
After our decision that we will keep the Ainulindale strictly to the mater outside Eä, we have to move great parts of Text D into the Quenta Silmarillion. The first chapter Of Valinor and the Two Trees is (in my unpublished draft version) already very long. I would like to add a chapter for the telling of the story up the destruction of the Lamps and the dwelling of the Valar on Almaren. And of course this would also mean to delet the first § in Of Valinor and the Two Trees.
A headline for this new chapter is found easily in Sil77: Of the Beginning of Days. Is that okay, or should I simply replace the first § in Of Valinor and the Two Trees, creating a very, very long chapter. Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
02-05-2013, 01:30 PM
|
#84 |
|
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
|
Well, I think that is necessary that first chapter.
I only can say that for me is better "Of the beginnig of time" since was writen by the professor in the first heading of The Anals of Aman ("Of the beginning of time and its reckoning"), so we have an "original" chapter headig; and that of CT "Of the beginning of days" is I think an invention, isn't it? Greetings |
|
|
|
|
02-05-2013, 04:30 PM
|
#85 |
|
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Splitting it into two chapters seems reasonable to me. And I think Gondowe has a very good idea in taking the heading 'Of the Beginning of Time' for the title of the first chapter.
|
|
|
|
|
02-06-2013, 06:59 AM
|
#86 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Okay, I introduced the change.
Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 02-07-2013 at 04:35 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10-19-2013, 02:59 PM
|
#87 |
|
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
|
I think a good case could be made for the athrabeth in the story chronologically, before the 4th battle, perhaps after the description of the mereth aderthad.
__________________
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
|
|
|
|
|
10-21-2013, 06:16 AM
|
#88 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Sorry lindil, but I do not understand what exact placement you mean. As far as I can see in our outline the story of Andreth speaking with Felagund is as good positioned in chronological order as is possible without integrating it fully into the text of chapter 21.
Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
09-02-2015, 01:37 PM
|
#89 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Greetings everyone!
I have been looking around the forum, trying to nitpick anything I might have found questionable, or proposing any noteworthy additions to the texts, but I could not really find, or think of, anything of particular importance. That being said, with nothing else to do, I was wondering if any of you might have an idea of what to do with the Second and Third Age stuff (if you wish to include those)? What would the chapter structure look like? P.S. Are you for or against including "Tal-Elmar"? Or should it be included in the appendices? In my opinion, although it would be a beautiful addition, I'm afraid that due to its unfinished nature it would look a little awkward.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-02-2015, 02:07 PM
|
#90 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
And yes - what about "The Converse of Manwë and Eru"?
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-03-2015, 04:18 AM
|
#91 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
As I imagin our over all work it has 3 parts:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS volume 2: NÚMENOR AND THE HISTORY OF THE NORTH-WEST OF MIDDLE-EARTH volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE We did never discuss the structure of volume 2 and 3 more in detail. Only some ingrendents seem clear: For volume 2:Of Dwarves and Men, Akalabeth, Of the Rings of power and the Third Age, the parts 2 and 3 of Unfinished Tales, parts of the appendices of LotR added with material from the draft versions given HoME Other my have to be discussed more in detail once we start working on this part: Tal Elmar, the Númenoreian chapters of The Lost Raod; The New Shadow In volume 3: I imagin stuff like Laws and Customs, The conversation of Manwe and Eru, The Lhamas and so on. If you like to start with collecting and sorting the chapters of these parts more in detail, I am open to disucuss and help with suggestions. Respectfuly Findegil |
|
|
|
|
09-03-2015, 07:42 AM
|
#92 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Well, since I'm still working on the First Age stuff, I'll have to think about the outline for the Second and Third Age when I get to that part, which will be pretty soon.
Also, I have finished the "Athrabeth", and was wondering if you wouldn't mind if I start a thread on the changes I have made (though, admittedly, there aren't that many). P.S. Concerning the "Tale of Adanel". I was wondering if maybe it would be better if it is inserted inside the main body of text, after Finrod questions Andreth if there might be any tales from the early days of Men.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-03-2015 at 07:46 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
09-03-2015, 09:52 AM
|
#93 | |||
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Posted by Arvegil145:
Quote:
Posted dy Arvegil145: Quote:
Posted by Arvegil145: Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
|||
|
|
|
|
09-05-2015, 03:49 AM
|
#94 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
To Findegil:
One more thing I wanted to ask you - can you tell me what sources did you use for the 11 chapters you finished by now (as you said)? Thank you. (I'm just asking because I want to make sure I didn't miss anything.)
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-05-2015, 05:18 PM
|
#95 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Regarding Of the Coming of the Elves - I'm not entirely sure if the Clan-names should be kept inside the main body of the text - I think it should go in the appendices; same thing with the Cuivienyarna (sort of like the Tale of Adanel in the Athrabeth).
And I respectfully disagree with the splitting of the chapters Of the Beginning of Time and Of Valinor and the Two Trees. I don't think that the chapters should be needlessly fragmented - perhaps demoting Of Valinor and the Two Trees into a sub-chapter of Of the Beginning of Time would be a more elegant solution - but that's just my two cents. P.S. I'm currently (and probably most foolishly) trying to juggle with two chainsaws called "trying to finish the tales of the First Age" and "starting a work on the Second Age without a clear chapter outline". So forgive me if I let a brain fart or two while discussing certain topics of interest.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-06-2015, 08:59 AM
|
#96 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Holy jumping Jesus, this barrow is deader than death.
But in any case, I have a proposal: how about including the essay Círdan found in The Peoples of Middle-earth as an appendix to the chapter Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië? Another thing: The Names of Finwë's Descendants don't belong (in my opinion) to the main body of text - the tone of it is not right, and it is too much of an intrusion in the main narrative. Besides, if one would edit the text of The Names of Finwë's Descendants and The Clan-names (in the chapter Of the Coming of Elves) to fit the narrative better, it would damage the original text of the essays and alter their nature. So perhaps it would be better to put them inside the appendices or to the Volume III of the Translations from the Elvish.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-06-2015 at 09:34 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
09-06-2015, 12:34 PM
|
#97 | ||||||
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Quote:
Quote:
. 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees . 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles … Of Aulë and the Dwarves ……Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim … Anaxartaron Onyalie …… Of the Ents and the Eagles . 4 Of the Coming of the Elves … The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi (Cuivienyarna) … Of the captivity of Melkor … The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar …… Lindar (Teleri) …… Vanyar …… Ñoldor …… Sindar …… Nandor [b]. 5 Of Thingol and Melian . 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie … The Names of Finwë's descendants …… 1. The names of Finwë …… 2. (The names of the child of Míriel) …… 3. (The names of the children of Indis) …… 4. (The names of the children of Fingolfin) …… 5. (The names of the children of Finarfin) …… 6. The names of the Sons of Fëanor . 7 Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Míriel . 8 Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor . 10 Of the Drakening of Valinor … Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel First of all I did never claim these chapters where any think near finished! To produce a draft is a private leisure time occupation. The result is as fare from being finished as any readable text of chapter might be. The chapters are untouched by the group, which means they are worth no more than the nice hours I spent to produce them. The ecception to this are chapters 7 to 10 which have been discussed here a very long time ago, when the former active group of members found it neccessary to produce in a shorter time something as an example of how they imagined the end result of their edidting while working on the Fall of Gondolin. The basic text for these chapters is the Later Quenta Silammrillion found in HoME 10 but of course there are passages skipt and adds and replacements from various sorces ranging from the Lost Tales to Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17. If you and I will succed in re-establishing a working discussion, I will post my drafts chapter by chapter as the discussion goes forward. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Respectuly Findegil P.S.: Sorry for being late with these answer, but I had to read the Athrabeth to prepair myself for the discussion, which took some time and was found more improtant for the moment. Last edited by Findegil; 09-06-2015 at 12:52 PM. |
||||||
|
|
|
|
09-07-2015, 05:58 AM
|
#98 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Hmmmmm...glad to see that I'm not the only walking corpse here. (While I'm at it, can you tell me if there are any active (for lack of a better word) users around here - I can't seem to spot any beside you and me.)
Anyway, I'm still a bit in the dark concerning the Ainulindalë and the first two chapters of the Quenta: you said that you have taken a good chunk of the Ainulindalë and transferred it into the beginning of the Quenta. Now, what are the dividing points - in other words, where did you end the Ainulindale? And with what did you start Of the Beginning of Time and Of Valinor and the Two Trees? Concerning Círdan (and rest of the material which is in the form of essays) - I seem to think that (like I said), that there is too much discrepancy in the tone to put it into the narrative, if you follow me. I know that the focus of the project is not primarily concerned with the style, but I still feel a little uncomfortable with such a drastic shift in the tone of the text. Although I'm not really hellbent on it. One more thing - I don't have access to Vinyar Tengwar nor Parma Eldalamberon, so it would more than welcome if you (if you have them) add (or propose adding) some stuff from VT or PE which otherwise might have been lost.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-07-2015, 09:06 AM
|
#99 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Take some patience! Hopefully we will not be so alone for long. At least Aiwendils last post it not unusellay fare in the past. I am sure he will come back at some point (I hope soon). From Maedhros we have not heard for a long time and I fear that he lost interest. gondowe has allways be an unregular poster so that I would think that he will also come back. I hope that with naming this three as main contributers of the last wave (or waves) of activity I will not affornt anybody. It was not meant in that way, each and every contribution is important!
About the split: In our Ainulindalë we skipt from mid of §23 [... And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there AINU-08.2 {from the first}<soon>, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposes AINU-08.3 . {; and he ...] to the end of §38. We us again §39 to §41. The rest of §23 and the §24 to §38 of the Ainulindale D build together with additions from Myths Transformed and Annals of Aman the chapter Of the Beginning of Time Beside some small snipets used in that chapter the Later Silmarillion becomes the basic text for our editing starting with §12 [In the darkness and the confusion ...]. Were the break will be between the chapters Of the Beginning of Time and Of Valinor and the Two Trees is not yet clear. In think it would be best in the middle of §12 between [... Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he VT-SL-01 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.VT-LQ-01 <LQ2[footnote to the text: The chief of his fortresses was at Utumno in the North of Middle-earth; but he made also a fortress and armoury not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea, to resist any assault from Aman. This was called Angband and was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor.]>] and [Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. ...]. I hope this is helpful. Concerning the essay: It is true that the goal of this project is not concerned with style, but the text has to be at least readily readable. And therefore such questions as these have to wait the actual editing. Normaly either the producer of the draft or some one else will try to incooperate such addtions and the group will then discuss if the value gained is worth the desruption done, or will together better the editing until the result is okay for us. Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
|
|
|
|
|
09-09-2015, 05:22 AM
|
#100 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
I was thinking for a while about the Second Age, pondering what would the chapter structure look like, and I while post a rather rough outline soon.
In the mean while (since I plan to put the Elder Days on hiatus - not for long, mind you), I would like to start a discussion on "The New Shadow" and "Tal-Elmar" - merely for a discussion on whether to keep them. Since this part of the Downs is rather quiet (undeservedly), I would like to wake it from its long slumber. One thing that is particularly amusing is the fact that Christopher Tolkien finished the HOME in less than 15 years, and this project goes on, and on, and on since 2000. And I mean no offense! Better to do it slowly and thoroughly than to mess up the entire work.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-09-2015, 09:15 AM
|
#101 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
I think it is best to discuss one after the other and would like to start with Tal-Elmar. The overall goal speaks for including it. But there are at least two major issues that I can forsee:
1. The geography. JRR Tolkien himself noted that the tale needed revision to fit to the region of the mouth of Anduin. Under our rules we will have a very hard time to do that. 2. The end of the story. We have included other unfinished texts, but then we normaly had older version or at least some summarys to work out a conclusion. Here we have only some thin statements of what was to follow. Nonetheless I for the time being vote for trying if we can handle the issues of not. If we feel the result is not good enough we can still skip it. But I think it is at least worth a trial. Respectfuly Findegil |
|
|
|
|
09-09-2015, 11:30 AM
|
#102 | ||
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Quote:
1. The mystery of the story is rather inttiguing
__________________
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
09-10-2015, 10:10 AM
|
#103 |
|
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
|
On Tar-Elmar I agree with Findegil's two points. I think is not a text to include. For example, Aldarion's tale has a summary ending that I think works (in my version I prelude it saying that the rest of the tale is lost but some fragments still stood and can finish the story, or the battle of the fords of Isen that the rest is lost, but the extant text is enough developed to be inserted.
And the same of Tar-Elmar could be said about The New Shadow. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 09-10-2015 at 10:19 AM. |
|
|
|
|
09-19-2015, 02:28 PM
|
#104 | ||
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
09-19-2015, 02:34 PM
|
#105 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
I am also currently revising the Second and Third Age material, and like I said, I will propose an outline for it as soon as I may (detailed, mind you).
P.S. One more question (two actually): what about Elentir and Míriel's infatuation with Pharazôn? Are they "canon"? The second question: if the "Númenórean chapters" from "The Lost Road" are to be kept, what should we do with Herendil - in my opinion, the easiest solution is to simply replace him with Isildur (or Anárion - but I see no point in that, since Anárion is not really featured that much in the rest of the writings).
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-20-2015, 11:19 AM
|
#106 | ||
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Quote:
1) Isildur was born in SA 3209 - and according to "Aldarion and Erendis" Aldarion was at the age of 25 fully come to manhood. Yet in the Lost Road Herendil (or Isildur if we replace him) is yet called a boy at almost 50 years of age. This cannot stand in the context of the later mythology. 2) At the time the narrative takes place, Sauron is already in Númenor, and Ar-Pharazôn is preparing his fleet (which according to the later story took place only after SA 3310) - again we have the problem of chronology. Herendil (Isildur) is said to have been but a child when Sauron came - (in SA 3261/2 according to the later outline) - yet Isildur would have been a full grown man at that time. .... I could go on and on, but these are just some of the things that stand out to me as very problematic.
__________________
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
09-20-2015, 11:39 AM
|
#107 | ||
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
OK - I finally finished the Númenórean stuff, and I will now propose an outline for it. Yet I still have to think more about the Middle-earth of the Second and Third Age.
Quote:
1) start the chapter with "A Description of the Island of Númenor" (in which I have included the opening parts of the "Akallabêth" as found in QS77) 2) include the story of "Aldarion and Erendis" immediately following the description of Númenor 3) continuation of the "Akallabêth" (proper) until its end 4) include "The Line of Elros" after the end of the "Akallabêth" (proper) 5) include the essay "Aman and Mortal Men" as a kind of an epilogue ... Considering "Tal-Elmar" I have decided not to include it on the basis of the fact that it breaks the narrative apart in a way that I cannot handle. If we are going to include it, it will have to go in some kind of an appendix, or (as I deem best) in the rest of the material on the Second and Third Age of Middle-earth. Also, as in my previous post, I have some major reservations about including the "Númenórean chapters" from "The Lost Road", and I have decided not to include them too - they will need a further check after (if we ever) get to the post-First Age stuff.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-20-2015 at 11:53 AM. |
||
|
|
|
|
09-25-2015, 08:55 AM
|
#108 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
The sequence in which you aranged the source text seems more or less okay to me, so I would put The Line of Elros earlier. And I would change the structure in which to present them:
Quote:
I never saw the Númenoren chapters of The Lost Road as chapters of thier own in our work, but parts of them might be integrated into The Downfall of Númenor. Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
|
09-28-2015, 05:11 AM
|
#109 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
About the inclusion of the Lost Road chapters: I agree that the chronology has to be changed, but probably we should look to a younger genration. The scene discribed in which the father see the need to speak to his son is the approaching war and the fear of father that the son might be called to the weapon taking.
Therefore the talk must be palced between 3310 when Ar-Pharazôn began the building of the Great Armament and 3319 when he set forth to conquere Valinor. The only one approaching full manhoud at this time in the line of the Lords of Andunie is Islidurs eldest son, Elendur (and even he barely). If we take Elendur replacing Herendil, we can chose if he speaks to his father Isildur or to his Grandfather Elendil, but the time of the conversation must be as late as possible not earlier then 3317 when Elendur is 18 years old. Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
09-28-2015, 09:22 AM
|
#110 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Hello! and sorry for the long delay.
I was actually considering replacing Herendil with Elendur before, and it would also add some nice info about Elendur - the most like in mind and body to his grandfather Elendil. Speaking of Elendil, I think that we should change the original text as little as possible. So I am in favor of keeping Elendil. But the problem is, as I see it and as you have mentioned already, that the narrative of the Númenórean chapters of The Lost Road relies heavily on the father-son relationship - so keeping that in mind, maybe it would be better to replace Elendil with Isildur, but I'll have to think about it a bit more. But to me, the greatest problem is the replacement of Herendil with Isildur/Elendur/(some other suggestion?) itself. I think this is a case similar to that of keeping Meril as the mother of Gil-galad, but this time with Orodreth as his father. I think it is getting too near to the fan-fiction territory. Now...to get a little off-topic - all of that being said, I still think that Meril as the wife of Orodreth should not be discarded so lightly - if I remember correctly, you DID keep Meril, although you did not name her - her background is still there as a Sinda from Eglarest. Would it be too problematic to name her?
__________________
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
10-01-2015, 05:58 AM
|
#111 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
One thing (among many others) that kept me delayed for so long is the fact that I have some doubts considering the entire project. First off, the matter of the Myths Transformed and the round world version of The Silmarillion. I know, probably more than most, that there are many problems with making such a revision to Tolkien's works. But still, I think it is worth a try, and if we are to succeed in such an attempt, though hard that attempt be, we would have the ultimate (or as ultimate as it could possible be) "Tolkien Parish".
Second problem I found (as you no doubt have seen already) is the Ælfwine/Eriol vs. Bilbo transmission of the legends of the Elder Days and of the Second and Third Age (including The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings). Seeing that Tolkien had obviously kept both Bilbo and Ælfwine I'm not so sure if Ælfwine should be discarded that lightly. Now for a bit of fan-fiction - if Bilbo and Frodo (and later Sam) went to Eressëa it wouldn't be so hard a stretch to imagine that Ælfwine learned the stories of Bilbo, Frodo and Sam during his stay on the Island. But as I said before, this is only a concoction. P.S. Concerning the Númenórean transmission of the legends I have some major problems with the entire concept. One of them is so hard to believe that I find it altogether hilarious - if the Númenóreans were the greatest mariners the world has ever seen, how then could they not know that the world is round?! Another point that strikes almost as deep as the previous one is the Númenórean lore concerning other things than sea-faring - the Númenóreans were the most advanced human civilization that ever was. How then could they make such erroneous statements of the kind that the Sun and the Moon were made from the Two Trees of Valinor, etc., etc. But all of this, of course, relies on the fact that the Elves knew the TRUE nature of the world, and that the Númenóreans and other kinds of Men made garbled tales about the origin and nature of the said world. I simply cannot accept the Númenórean origin of the tales of the Elder Days and beyond them - I think that the Elven origin of those tales is, to me at least, the best mode of their transmission - not to mention the believability of them, and a much better ability to truly immerse oneself into the stories themselves. Although I am aware that these tales (of the Elder Days) are just "tales" and that the world of Middle-earth is an imaginary world, I'm still inclined to regard them as "true" tales in the context of the world in which they take place - also, I am loath to consider such a great amount of history of Middle-earth as a myth inside a myth.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 10-01-2015 at 06:08 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10-02-2015, 09:05 AM
|
#112 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Both decisions were discussed and made before my time as active member in this project. As both are really basic decisions I fully agree that, if we are to re-discuss them, we should do that as soon as possible.
The discussions I could find (not the oldest that were done as it seems) are in the private forum, which is a pity and observed already when they were made as a mistake but not easily correctable now. Rejecting Ælfwine was a unanimous consent at a time when 10 members were active. To change that in the given situation with the rules we have given our self for such cases would require new facts brought forward and a new unanimous consent of all now active members. For the round earth version it could be even more difficult, so there it was only a vote. The vote was: - A) Round Earth 1 - B) Flat Earth as mannish legend with Elves did know better 1 - C) Flat Earth 7 With only two voters still around to retake the vote [1 B), 1 C)] you need a lot of supports to skip that vote to A). I myself was the B) voter and even back then I remarked that I am symphatic to A). That would make it 1:7 or if lindil would vote again a 1:6 that you have to overcome with a better ratio in the new vote. But since I think lindil will most probably not change his vote the standing would be 2:1. So we are in need of at least 5 additional A) supporters. I can’t that this is reachable for the time being. About your P.S.: Before Columbus the Spanish were also the greatest mariners of their time. As the Númenóreans they surrounded the equivalent of Middle-Earth in our world (Africa and Aisia) reaching Japan. But they all believed that our world was a flat earth. Quote:
But anyhow all your arguments would count against version B) but what the project decided to do was version C) => real flat earth up to the downfall of Númenor when the world became round. Thus the knowledge of the Elves and Númenóreans were true at the time and the stories of the first age and before could be elvish. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Beside the flat / round earth issue the nail prove for any such working hypothesis will come when we work on chapter 14 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor. |
|
|
|
|
|
10-02-2015, 02:44 PM
|
#113 | ||
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
10-03-2015, 05:07 AM
|
#114 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
Quote:
But again: it does not matter. In our version the world is flat until the fall of Númenor then it becomes round. So the Númenorens could be as learned as you wish them to be or more, they would still report that their world had been flat before Valinor was removed, because that is inside the story a 'historical' fact. Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
|
10-07-2015, 07:11 PM
|
#115 | |
|
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
|
I was wondering (rereading Gilfanon's Tale) - are Nuin, Ermon, and Elmir still valid in the later mythology - are they "canon"? I find the story (or at least the fragments of it that were actually written) pretty intriguing...but that's not the point - there is nothing contradicting the later writings in the general outline of the story (of course, it would still need revisions).
What I find very alluring about the said characters is that Nuin (if you don't count Morwë and Nurwë and Eöl according to some versions of the story of Maeglin) is the only Avarin Elf mentioned by name anywhere - and he actually plays a pretty large role in the Awakening of Men. Which brings me to another point - Ermon and Elmir are also (as in the matter of Nuin) the ONLY unbegotten Men ever named in Tolkien's writings. Maybe there is a place for at least some of the concepts of the story in our revision. What are the others' thoughts on the matter? P.S. Yes, and what about Tareg the Ilkorin and Tu (Túvo)?
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 10-07-2015 at 07:29 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10-08-2015, 12:01 PM
|
#116 |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
I thinkt that this story was skipt by Tolkien. There is no trace of it found in Adanel's Tale nor in Myths Transformed Text II. Thus Ermon and Elmir were lost, which is good since these names are to much bound into northern Mythology.
Nuin on the other hand left, may be some, traces as we knew that men had early in thier history contact to Elves (Avari, see MT Text II). The same could be said about Tu (Túvo) since in GA §§79-80 we here about Morgoth dealings with Men and are told that 'his spies were watchful, and tidings soon came to him of the arising of Men. ... this desgin was slow to ripen, ... Morgoth ... came back to Angband, leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning.' Tu feels for me much like one of these spies and / or servant of less might and cunning. Respectfully Findegil |
|
|
|
|
08-17-2017, 02:30 PM
|
#117 |
|
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
|
Findegil, since you have the best understanding of the docs, could you lay out the final chapter outline, but indicating where work is finished and still needs to be done? This could be really helpful to see what areas need most attention.
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-20-2017 at 01:37 PM. |
|
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 11:42 AM
|
#118 | |
|
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
|
I wouldn’t say that I have the documents. But at least I try to have an overview.
Okay, here comes the list of chapters with remarks of what was done on them. I have shortened the list to full chapters. The sub-chapters are easily found in the chapter structure earlier in this thread and the status of the sub-chapters of one full chapter is normally the same. The following status classes are used: Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result Quote:
Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-13-2017 at 02:56 PM. Reason: Updated due to new chapters under discussion. |
|
|
|
|
|
08-18-2017, 02:40 PM
|
#119 |
|
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
|
This is extremely helpful thank you so much!
|
|
|
|
|
09-26-2017, 06:17 PM
|
#120 | |
|
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
|
Volumes 2 and 3
So ever since I finished that whole bunch of drafts (phew) I have been tinkering away at parts 2 and 3 of this grand work, trying to figure out a suitable outline. I figure I might as well post it up here, and see what people think of it.
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
Linear Mode
