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#81 | ||||||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nulukkhizdīn
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I have a few more thoughts before the entire matter is settled.
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The entire passage has a great deal to do with Pengoloð and the Ainulindalë itself. It gives us a glimpse of Pengoloð's character we may lose if we take the experience away from him. CT deleted the character completely, we should try not to. That Pengoloð saw Yavanna in tree-form we know. But was he the only one or was he with others? We can't answer that with the information we have. The "some" with which you would replace "I myself" does that in effect. Also he saw Yavanna "long years agone": an indication that this incident, and maybe even the Rúmilian Ainulindalë existed far earlier than this account we're creating. Remember, Rúmil and his Ainulindalë never left Valinor. The version Tolkien wrote was an oral retelling of that by Pengoloð sometime after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain. TftE's version is based on the assumption that this is a work translated by Bilbo in Rivendell, which must have been written by an Exile.
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Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul? Last edited by Petty Dwarf; 03-23-2004 at 09:58 PM. |
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#82 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Did I miss some thing?
When the text of Antione apeared (for a view days), I thought that the all problems we had with the Ainulindalë were settled. But revisiting this thread I think that the issue of the Yavanna as a tree was not finally resolved. With the text readed (hopefully) as Antione did provide it, are there still no renegades for a such a elegant conclusion as a footnote did provide ![]() And reading the text and its companions in the HoME I found a heavy problem: The First battle of the Valar as told in the Ainulindalë was later changed in The Annals of Aman. Beside the fact that the discription in AAm is much more elaborated then in the Ainulindalë and thus sweets the overall goal of the project better there are some big differences: - Utumno was in AAm build before the assult on Almaren and the Lamps. - The Valar did pursuit Melkor at once, but cuold not overcome him. They did come out of Valinor at Melkor for the first time at the War of Powers. Beside these project issuse I have a question of understanding: As its stands in the Sil77 and the Ainulindalë I got the understanding that Melkor at first did dispute Manwë's Kingship and was driven from the World. Then he returned and the First war of the Valar occured which was ended when Tulkas chased Melkor again from the world. But now after reading all the texts again I think that view was wrong. It seems to me know that the end of Rúmils Ainulindalë, the addition Pengolodh and the first §§ in Of Valinor and the two Trees do discribe the same event thrice: the First war of the Valar that following the Annals of Aman lasted 1500 VY before Tulkas came in and drove Melkor out. Do you think that I have got the story right now or do you think that Melkor left the world two times? Respectfully Findegil |
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#83 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Aside from the problem of „Yavanna as a tree“ I have already mentioned in my last post the changed course of the story in the first war of the Valar. I this post I will give the changes that in my view are necessary. I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalë. It seems necessar yto me to take up big parts of the Annal of Aman (Aam) to creat the text that serves our over-all goal (a most rich and canon friendly Version of all the story). But this issue seems to me not more than a philosophical discussion. Anyway if the assumption that the text has existence in Middle-Earth does hinder us to solve a canonical problem or take up more rich versions of the story we must skip that assumption.
Since the issue is concerned with the discription of the first war of the Valar, I will start my discussion with §31 in Pengoloð’s addition: Quote:
Some remarks to my changes: Ai-1W-01: This is only a addition for a more detailed story. Ai-1W-02: I replaced “in far Heaven” because it seems to me that it could refer to the Timless Halls of the Ainur. The phrase from AAm is at least much claerer in this respect. Ai-1W-03 I foundthat it is significant that in AAm Melkor is afraid of Tulkas mirth and anger. Ai-1W-04 Here we start with the real points. The story of the feast is missing in the Ainulindalë. And also the spies of Melkor with Sauron as their chief. Also we must have the building of Utumno before the war. Ai-1W-05 In the Ainulindalë the war was much more successful for Melkor: He drove out the Valar that could not even overcome him when they a bit later returned from Valinor. We must provide the later story were Melkor was succesful only in distroying what his brethern had made, but was himself driven into hidding at Utumno by Tulkas and that the Valar could not overcome him because they needed much of their power for the saving of their works. Respectfully Findegil |
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#84 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I think you have discovered the reason that CRT chopped off the end of the Ainulindale and moved that material into "Of the Beginning of Days".
I wonder if this may be the best approach for us as well. |
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#85 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Yes this might have been the reason for Christopher Tolkien to remove this part of the Ainulindalë. But do we follow him in this move? If we do so it will become even harder to make the additions of Pengoloð to the text of the Music of the Ainur work.
This was also the reason why Antione wanted to join the discussion of the first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees / Of the Beginning of Days with that of the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta. We must ask ourself why did JRR Tolkien place the story of the first War of the Valar at that place and not at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion. As JRR Tolkien left it, the Quenta Silmarillion starts after a short intro with the creation of the Trees which were the ultimate source of the light of the Silmaril. I think that this was desiered by JRR Tolkien. But that does not force us to do the same. We have already left the real goal and structer of the Quenta Silmarillion far behind by taking up very elaborated tales that do not premarily deal with the story of the Silmarils (e.g. the Narn i chîn Húrin). But this additions in the later course of the Quenta Silmarillion we will mostly indicat, would we do the same here? I don't think we could do that with out some very artifical source info. Thus I think the First War is better left were it is, an addition to the Ainulindalë "told" by Pengoloð. This would also in some degree prevent the misunderstanding that I had when reading the Sil77, of Melkor leaving Arda two times. Respectfully Findegil |
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#86 |
The Kinslayer
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Having now read your additions from the Annals, I tend to agree with them. Unfortunately, I still believe that we cannot use the Yavanna as a tree line in a footnote. I think that if it is not in the main text, then we should drop it.
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#87 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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It might seem that I am turning up ervry old thread I can find, but well I found a problem:
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I think we should change the sentence thus: Quote:
Findegil |
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#88 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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I found some passage worth considering:
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Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 01-30-2007 at 10:47 PM. |
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#89 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I bring this old thread up because I think it is the Ainulindalë that we should finish next.
As fare as I can see there are the following problems left: - Yavanna as a tree. We still have no solution for this. I have to look into this again before I restart any discussion on this topic. - The placing in our text of the first war: Here at the end of the Ainulindalë or at the beginning of the Silmarillion. - All the changes introduce by me named Ai-xx-yy. Maédhros did agree to some but not to all. What about the rest and what is about your oppion, Aiwendil. Respectfully Findegil |
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#90 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Aiwendil, Maedhros are you still with me in this project?
I will break another lance for the footnote. If we consider the original tradition of the text it is like this: - Rumil writes the Ainulindalë in Valinor. - Pengoloð reads the Ainulindalë in Valinor. - Pengoloð makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalë in exile. - Pengoloð tells the Ainulindalë and his additions to Ælfwine. - Ælfwine makes a translation of the Ainulindalë obviously with the copy of Pengoloð in front, but he adds the additions and the frame work of the talk he had with Pengoloð. In this circumstances the footnote to §19 about the end of the vision of the Valar before the dominion of Men started must either be an after thought of Ælfwine of an verbal aside of Pengoloð which came to Ælfwines memory only after he had finished that passage or a later instruction by Pengoloð when he had read the text for correction or a footnote in Pengoloð copy to make clear that this was not Rumils original text. Under all this conditions I assume that Pengoloð did read Ælfwines text and did in that way sanction both the footnote to § 19 and the written account of his sight of Yavanna as a tree. Since we have skipped Ælfwine the tradition of the text must be different: - Rumil writes the Ainulindalë in Valinor. - Pengoloð reads the Ainulindalë in Valinor. - Pengoloð makes a copy out of memory of Ainulindalë in exile. - Bilbo reads the copy of Pengoloð and makes a translation. Since we know from late sources that Pengoloð left Middle-earth in the middle of the second age we can be sure that he did not speak with Bilbo. Therefore we must either assume that: a) Pengoloð made the additions to Rumils work himself or b) Pengoloð wrote other works which Bilbo combined in his translation or c) we have another step in the tradition of the text which is similar to Ælfwine, meaning that this unknown scribe talked to Pengoloð, got instructions from him and made the additions to Rumils text when he made a copy. Under assumption a) the footnote to §19 and the addition of the early history of the Valar in Arda would mean that Pengoloð found these information essential enough to add them to Rumils work. Under assumption b) Bilbo would be the one to make the footnote and the addition in order to provide the right authorship to the information. Under assumption c) our text would be a bit artificial since we are only forced to take out frame work of talk because we do not know the scribe by name. Now the footnote to §19 would have again the same meaning as in the old tradition of the text. It is only under assumption c) that I can see a good reason not to provide the Yavanna as a tree episode in another footnote similar to that in §19. Since here it would be a change of a spoken word of Pengoloð to a written one. Respectfully Findegil |
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#91 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Having given all this a little thought, I find myself wondering: why are we trying to create a veritable, "realistic" Ainulindale when, as Findegil has pointed out, we long ago decided not to create a "real" Quenta Silmarillion? Many of the issues we seem to be dealing with here arise largely or entirely from our demanding that the text we produce be the authentic text produced by a scribe in Middle-earth. Findegil seems already to have hit upon this, but I missed the point:
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1. The placement of the first war - the only difficulty here, as I see it, is that we are reluctant to revise an "authentic" Ainulindale with material from AAm. If, on the other hand, our goal were only to create a "true" narrative of events in Arda, there would be nothing wrong with combining two sources, as we have done elsewhere. 2. The whole issue of footnotes - with the stricter goal of creating an authentic text, all of this depends critically upon finding some motivation for the use of footnotes on the part of one of the authors or scribes. If the text is merely a true narrative, then footnotes become merely a matter of style. It would be simple enough, then, to re-structure the 'Yavanna as a tree' sentence to eliminate the first person (either in the body of the text or in a footnote). Quickly glancing over Findegil's proposed revisions to incorporate AAm, I think they look good. But I must have a more careful look at the texts when I get the chance. Findegil's revision of §42 to change rebirth to reincarnation also looks good. |
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#92 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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From the start of the work on the Ainulindale I found it starnge that for this one prat of our work we tried to creat a text as it would have existed in Middle-Earth, while for all the rest of project that never was any goal.
Therefore I say the soon we come to abonden that assumption the beter it will be. Respectfully Findegil |
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#93 | ||
The Kinslayer
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#94 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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Findegil, having read your addtions, I must say:
Ai-1W-01 I would change: Quote:
All of the others, seems ok to me. Quote:
Findegil, I noticed that you have this in the file: Quote:
Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#95 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Ai-1W-01: Agreed.
Yavanna as a tree: I still hesitate to agree to Aiwendils suggestion. It is changing the personal expierience of Pengolodh to that of some unknow group. If you are both adamant on not using it as an footnote (still do not quiet understand the reason for this), then I would suggest this: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#96 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Insofar as your objection to my proposal is that it emends a single reported sighting of Yavanna as a tree into multiple such reports, we might try: Quote:
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#97 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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I can understand the awakwardness of the first person within the text and therefore find your last suggestion better then my own, but still I would like to understand fully why we do not keep Pengolodh as the source. Respectfully Findegil |
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#98 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Even so I did not (yet) fully understand way the perosnal experience of Pengolodh is removed I agree to do so and we will take Aiwendils last suggestion.
Therefore this chapter is done. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#99 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Hello, after revising and compare this Ainulindale with mine, first of all I decided to edite the text with the idea of QS77 but with some differences. The words of Pengolodh were distributed in the Valaquenta, the first chapter of QS "Of the beggining of Time", and the second "Of Valinor and the Two Trees". But in general, the 95% of text more or less is the same, with a different reconstruction. As the information is the same I don't think necesary to say here. (And it would be very difficult to me, because I wasn't proffesional editing, and don't have annotated the source paragraphs like you.
I only would like to point that I had changed some "Worlds" by "Eäs", and "Earths" by "Ardas", from the passage Ilúvatar says "Eä, the World that Is". And a possible addition: §25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn thither by love for the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar; save only in majesty and splendour, for they are mighty and holy. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge and desire of {the} visible {World}[Eä], rather than of {the World}[Eä] itself, and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk unclad, as it were, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they clad themselves the Valar arrayed them in the form some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby. Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17, <The fanar <taken from above[or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have {had} a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to {have assumed} assume an awe-inspiring heigth.> And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but Varda was the Queen of the Valar,{ and the spouse of Manwë,} and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence. {Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda.} AINU-09 But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. Some {} are because for me are redundant. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 01-14-2011 at 08:37 AM. |
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#100 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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That is a good find! I like that addition of yours. And will number it for easier reference as Ainu-08.8. But I am not sure that we need to change the time as Gondowe did.
What do other say? Respectfuly Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 01-16-2011 at 01:25 PM. |
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#101 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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As I said in the introduction thread, were I gave the intro to the Appendix, I will provide what I did further on the Appendix:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#102 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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It seems that we never actually discussed the changes in §25 and §32. I like them both in principle, but I think we may need to work harder to integrate them into the text. I will have a careful look at them tonight if I can.
But I think you are right in your last point: we can scarcely say 'it was a part of their design that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end' when we are dealing with the very part of the story where they have put into effect their plan for perpetual day under the Lamps. |
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#103 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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After looking back at this again, I realize that we never actually came to a decision on what to do with the material concerning the first war, the Lamps, and the making of Valinor - whether to place it in the Ainulindale or in the first chapter of the Silmarillion. Since we are not constructing a 'veritable' Ainulindale (nor Quenta Silmarillion), perhaps we need not worry too much about that. I do think that the one thing to avoid is tell of the first war twice; that is, we should have a single account built out of the AAm, LQ, the Ainulindale, and any other pertinent texts.
If we decide to put this material in the Ainulindale, though, it isn't immediately obvious - at least, it isn't to me - where the break should go. There's overlap here among the Ainulindale D, AAm, and LQ. Indeed, I think we've largely overlooked until now the fact that LQ also has an account of this part of the history - though Antoine seems to have fully grokked that fact, and I now think his suggestion that we should consider the Ainulindale together with chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion made a lot of sense. For whatever we decide here will have implications for that chapter. If we decide to incorporate everything up to the building of Valinor into the Ainulindale (which is as far as the Ainulindale D goes), then if we want to avoid repeating the same material twice, we will have no 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' left! The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to put the material in question in the first chapter of the QS. That way we avoid the awkwardness of determining a chapter break, and QS chapter 1 can be constructed out of LQ, AAm, and the Ainulindale so as to most completely tell the story of those early ages. I think in the end it turns out that Christopher Tolkien made a very wise decision in doing essentially that. Matters would be very different if we were trying to construct the 'real' Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion. In that case, it would make perfect sense for the story to be told in both texts; and in that case, the argument that the QS should move immediately to the Two Trees, the source of the light of the Silmarils, would have force. But since our goal is a complete history, those concerns don't really apply. Findegil, earlier you expressed a preference for putting this material in the Ainulindale. Do you still hold this opinion? If so, can you explain your reasoning? As for AINU-08.8, looking at it again I think Gondowe's proposal is good as it is. I'm holding off on diving too deeply into the other un-discussed changes (partially because I now think they should wait until we take up 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees'). |
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#104 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Hello Aiwendil and Findegil is nice to see that you are still going on. I am very very busy and with not much time but always thinking in our loved professor.
As you can see in the chapter structure in the thread about my spanish project, I introduced a first chapter that called "Of the beginning of time" (extracted from the first one of the Annals of Aman) where is told the story previous the Two Trees, with the texts from Ainulindale, AAm, etc. That was a good idea of Christopher Tolkien. So I'm right with Aiwendil about that point. Greetings. |
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#105 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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As my proposal 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees (unposted here since we wanted to check all chapters that we finished so far first) goes, it has lot repeating from The Ainulindale. The focus is changed a bit and therefore I found it bearable. In The Ainulindale the focus lies more on the Legend up to the War of the Lamps and the building of Valinor is only shortly mentioned, while in 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees the Legend up to the War of Lampy is only recounted in short and the building of Valinor greatly expanded.
This looks okay for me if both The Ainulindale and Silmarillion are considered as single works. But if we take them as an entity it might be better to avoid any repeatition. The Only problem is that we have in our structure The Valaquenta in between. Therefore I agree that it is better to take up the full History of Arda into the Silmarillion if we want aviod repeatition. The question is then were we make the split. Christopher Tolkien does make it at the begining of the words of Pengolodh. But to avoid repeatition completle this seems to late. I would make the split thus: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 02-04-2013 at 02:53 AM. |
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#106 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Greetings, Gondowe! Good to see you.
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I too have a proposal for an 'Of the Beginning of Days'/'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' that I put together a few years ago. I believe that in my verison I assumed that the Ainulindale would go up to §28, so I incorporated only material from §29 to the end of Ainulindale D. But adding in pertinent material from §23 to §28 should not be difficult. It will be interesting to compare your version and mine! But before we do that, I think we should return to the other finished chapters that I have notes on. |
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#107 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Well is too difficult compare the inner text of both versions, mine and yours but with the different reconstruction of the phrases, and some minor differences in the insertions of the external paragraphs, if it could be of help, broadly, my Ainulindale is from §1 to §28, and the then the words of Pengolodh stars form §39 till the end. The rest is inserted in the Chapter one of QS "Of the beginning of time".
Greetings |
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#108 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Gondowe, it is nice to have your input to the project. Sorry for not greeting you in my last post, but even so there were 45 minutes in between, I think it was a matter of cross posting. This one took a long time to write.
Aiwendil, my proposal for the split was at AINU-08.3, which is in the middle of sentence 2 of §23. In our original editing at this point we inserted a § from Mhyts Transformed, which I suppose would make a good starting point for the new chapter as it reads: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#109 | ||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Quote:
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Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration. But perhaps, if we are going to revisit that issue, it should also wait for 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees', since that is where the passage will go according to our current plan. |
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#110 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#111 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Prepaering the text for I found that we have to change Ainu-02:
As it is now we skipt all the words of Pengolodh so I think we have to skip them as well from the headline: Quote:
Findegil |
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#112 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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[I see. Similar to that in QS77, then, which sounds pretty reasonable.]
But QS77 does not end with §28? I mean my Ainulindale ends with §39 to §42. [I think that I actually have no more comments on this chapter, and as far as I can see, all issues have been resolved. I will wait until we start on 'Of Valinor and the Two Trees' to address the additions to §§ 23-38, since they will be in that chapter now.] Does it mean that you are not agreed with the insert of a previous chapter one (Of the beginnig of time/days)? [Looking back, I do see that perhaps I never fully communicated to you what my concern was about the 'Yavanna as a tree' thing. Essentially, my objection to the passage is only that since we have removed the implicit frame-story, as it were, of Pengolodh speaking to Aelfwine, we must remove also the asides made by Pengolodh, and the references he makes to his own experiences - either by deleting them or by integrating them into the more neutral, third-person narration.] If it helps, that passage and others (the most from TBoLT) were inserted by me in the Valaquenta, that one in the description of Yavanna. In third-person. Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 02-05-2013 at 01:22 PM. |
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#113 | ||||
Late Istar
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[ QUOTE ]Sorry but I don't know why not quote the sentences right[ /QUOTE ] . . . except remove the spaces between the before and after the brackets [ and ]. Quote:
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#114 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I found a passage that I don't recall was discussed before:
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Also, the Aratar are eight (or nine, if Melkor is included) - Oromë and Mandos are missing here. One more thing - what about the passages from the Myths Transformed, that were proposed in an earlier post?
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#115 |
King's Writer
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Yavanna sister of Varda: If a fact is not mentioned it does not necessarily meant that is no longer true. Or have we overlooked a plain statement that gainsaid the two beign 'siblings'?
Eight (Nine) Aratar: Could you provide us with a quote for that? I can search myself, but since you seem to remember the fact, you may find it much easier. The passages from Myths transformed were added in the part of text that is not in Ainulidale proper but in the additional talk of Pengolodh to Ælfwine. Since we in the end moved that material to the first chapter/chapters of the Quenta Simalrillion we stoped discussing them here. You could take them as still under consideration. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#116 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar - Note on the "Language of the Valar"
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Another quote taken from Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Phase II - Valaquenta. This is a commentary by Christopher Tolkien on the statement in the Valaquenta that there are "Seven Great Ones of the Realm of Arda": Quote:
Concerning Yavanna and Varda being siblings: Quote:
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#117 |
King's Writer
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Thanks for providing these info. It looks like we have to do a complete cross check between our text and notes providing the development from LQ1 (which seems to be the basic text of our editing) to the Valaquenta of [B]Sil77[b].
Respectfuly Findegil P.S.: It seems how ever we work on a text some erros are unavoidable. Once I did such a development of the text from LQ1 to LQ2 silently and confused the group so that I had to rework it with editing marks for each and every change. In this case it seems that it was forgotten completly with equaly unwanted result. (From a glimps into my draft of the first chapters of the Quenta Silamrillion it looks luckily as if I have done well there.) |
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#118 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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One question just sprang up in my mind - have you included the part of the Myths Transformed where Manwë finds that Melkor has fallen and has been weakened, and when he feigns to repent when the Valar storm Utumno?
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#119 |
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Yes, it is included in my draft version of the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves.
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#120 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I am asking because I did not. I DID want to include it, and I thought it pitiable that it was excluded from my version - however, as much as I wanted, I could not find a way to incorporate it without resorting to a heavy rewording - basically, when I was finished revising it, I realized there were more words and sentences coming from me than from Tolkien - hence, I excluded it. I know this thread isn't exactly the best place to debate Of the Coming of the Elves but I am very curious about your version - maybe it could still be salvaged.
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