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#81 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#82 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Incidentally, I notice that in terms of number of posts this one is the third most popular, after the Foreword & Prologue. I also noticed that the one we're supposed to be discussing this week - The Field of Cormallen - has had just five responses, as opposed to eighty-two for this one. I wonder what that tells us about us Downers &/or about the nature of story & our response to it. Why is a chapter about death & destruction more interesting to us than one about victory & celebration?
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 10-22-2005 at 08:10 AM. |
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#83 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#84 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#85 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#86 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#87 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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I see that puts us on the same side of the razor. ![]() ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#89 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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Eru had “compassion” on the desires of Aule and granted life to the dwarves (knowing that dwarves would be needed to lend some tone to the proceedings). We know of two times when Eru is indicated as having used violence and killing in the world. He destroyed Numenor after centuries of warnings to prevent the Numenoreans from wrecking havoc in Valinor and probably discover all sorts of things they should not know (even though they could not become immortal). Eru killed Gollum after Gollum refused to repent and used Gollum to destroy the Ring, which Gollum would not have done willingly. At a bare minimum Eru seems the unhasty sort. Treebeard would approve.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#90 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Kuruharan wrote:
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#91 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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Regarding this issue, the debate over whether Eru was or was not involved is irrelevant. Quote:
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#92 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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#93 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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On the second we have a cosmic drama on which depends the fate of the world, both physical & spiritual. Good & Evil confront each other, Evil seems to win, but at the last moment defeats itself & Good is triumphant. But the point is this is a single event which can be seen from both perspectives. Eru plays a part, He is not a passive figure. 'Eru' is that which sustains existence, which ensures there is something rather than nothing. It is that which wins out at the Cracks of Doom - art, creativity, beauty, knowledge, life. It is also that which overwhelms the 'Evil ' symbolised by Gollum holding aloft the Ring & exulting - the dehumanised 'animal' with the power of death in its claws, the 'Machine' about to crush all life. 'Eru' obliterates the life of Gollum. Art, creativity, beauty, knowledge, life destroys Smeagol. |
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#94 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#95 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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We have no idea what happened to Gollum after the ending of his physical existence - we do know he threw away his chance of redemption on the stairs. Hence, he died in his sins, unrepentant. Unlike Frodo he never got the chance to be healed. Where there's life there's hope, as the Gaffer used to say. If Eru used Gollum as the means to His (laudable & necessary) end, thereby removing his chance of a 'deathbed' confession & repentance, does that oblige Eru to give him another chance, or did he have his chance & throw it away for good (or evil)? |
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#96 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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The burden of proof here is entirely on your side. I await any evidence you can present with great anticipation. Quote:
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#97 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Davem wrote:
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But it is a huge leap to go from this to questions about Eru "murdering" Gollum. To bridge that gap, you'd have to show that Eru was literally and directly involved, on the most concrete level. In other words, as I see it there is a profound difference between the fall of Numenor and the fall of Gollum. In the former case, Eru directly intervened. The proximate cause of the fall of Numenor was an act of Eru. The proximate cause of Gollum's fall was the step Gollum took. Of course, you could argue that Eru caused him to take that step, but then you'd be denying Gollum's free will. But if you remove Eru any farther from the events, then I think you have to accept my point of view - that Eru did not "intervene" at Mt. Doom (any more than he "intervened" in any and every event in Arda). In short, I think that unless one wants to deny the free will of Gollum, Frodo, and Sam one must refrain from attributing to Eru any kind of direct agency in the death of Gollum and the destruction of the Ring. |
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#98 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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But, as I say, that's my own theory. I can't back it up with any proof. |
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#99 |
Dead Serious
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Appropriately enough, considering its pivotal role, "Mount Doom" has seen more discussion in this thread about metaphysics and ethics than pretty much any other CbC thread--and scarcely any other discussion besides!
This chapter is almost brief--certainly the final, climactic moment in Orodruin is brief: mere paragraphs. This is not just appropriate, as suggested far above, because the story isn't about Frodo so much as it's also about the Return of the King, the passing of the Elves, and the scouring of the Shire--it's also true to life. Major moments in life can pass suddenly, how ever long they take in the anticipation and however wide their consequences ripple. The "failure of Frodo," source of so much discussion above, is somehow surprising the first time you meet it, even though Tolkien basically tells us right back in "The Shadow of the Past" (and prefigures it the chapter before--the VERY FIRST CHAPTER) that Frodo couldn't do it. It simply isn't that common for the "hero" to fall AND for the story to have a happy ending (and in simplistic "good guy wins" terms this book has a happy ending). But once you've read it, it's nigh impossible to imagine an alternative resolution.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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