4 Of the coming of the Elves - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 08-25-2021, 06:06 AM

CE-EX-28.4: Okay, so we propose {Vorotemnar}[Voronutalë] and {Ilterendi}[Laterendi]. Let's see if Aiwendil does agree to this.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 09-24-2021, 08:36 PM

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm reading through the latest discussion and writing some comments. Sorry, once again, for my tardiness. I hope to be able to get on with this next week.

ArcusCalion · 10-08-2021, 01:43 PM

Just popping in to say that there's a lot of new material to consider for this chapter from the Nature of Middle-earth book which was published last month. I wanted to ask everyone's opinions: should we hold off on any additions/changes stemming from that book until we've all come to an agreement on what we have so far? I feel like we should settle our central debates before introducing more, but if we think it's fine I could propose some inclusions and changes based on the new material.

Findegil · 10-09-2021, 11:03 AM

Aiwendil, what do you think about ArcusCalions question?

I have learned in some older cases that to hold any impulse for posting in this project back has always done more harm than good. But that is only my oppinion.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 10-09-2021, 04:30 PM

Yeah, I expect we're going to have some interesting discussions about a lot of the new material, and I don't see much point in holding those back. (As a matter of fact, reading and thinking about that book have already rather distracted me from the response I was working on here, for which I apologize!)

My personal opinion at this point is that the large corpus of new material from part I of that book is, in the end, not actually going to have a huge impact on the project, but naturally I expect rather a vigorous debate on that subject! At any rate, I do still intend to lay out my thoughts on the latest proposal here, but I don't see any reason that couldn't happen in parallel with the other discussion.

gondowe · 10-10-2021, 07:52 AM

Hi there. I would propose to try in another thread the making of a new Yenonotie with the additions of NoME if they can be taken into account. And then try to incorporate them into the text. In order to be as faithful as possible to the narrative sequence.

ArcusCalion · 10-11-2021, 06:13 AM

Gondowe, I actually have made a draft of a 'Yenonotie' style work combining several of the 'time' related texts from NoME and HoME. I can post that at some point, but it was not actually as difficult as might be thought once a thorough understanding of the texts, their history, and the applications to the legendarium are considered.

gondowe · 10-13-2021, 08:07 AM

Hi Arcus. I also started a Yenonotie but I see that adapting to the new situation is very difficult. Seeing that Aiwendil opened a new thread about this we talked there.

Elvellon · 08-19-2023, 09:40 AM

Probably a silly question, so please bear with me, because I feel like I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle here. I've been trying to sort it out.

Why in CE-EX-05.5 is the line removed about Oromë naming the Quendi Eldar? There is no explanation here that I can find, but I may have missed it. My working assumption is that a decision was made somewhere along the way, perhaps in another thread, to keep "Eldar" only for Elves of the Great Journey. If that's the reason, can someone point me to the place where this was decided? I'd be curious to read the arguments for and against.

The other reason I ask is because in CE-EX-25, the reference to Oromë naming the Eldar remains. Perhaps it was an issue of avoiding repetition?

I regret being such a late-comer to this project, so apologies for retreading ground that was settled long ago.

Edit: Nevermind. I think I answered my own question mere minutes after asking it.

Arvegil145 · 09-07-2023, 10:16 AM

I'm not quite sure that this line from the Annals of Aman should've been removed:

Quote:

The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky. This, it is said, was a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.

- Annals of Aman, entry 1000-1050, p. 71

After all, the texts in TNS are of Numenorean origin - and just because the Later Quenta omits the mention of Turin (even though it does mention the Last Battle briefly in reference to Menelmacar), it doesn't mean that it was rejected altogether.

Findegil · 09-08-2023, 02:07 AM

Elvellon, please excuse my late answer. Yes, CE-EX-05.5 was removed because all that was said in that passage is repeated in what we inserted in CE-EX-25. Beside that, I think it would be strange from a storyline perspective if Oromë would first name the Quendi Eldar, before they ask him his name and the name of his horse. As we put the passages together, Oromë is first asked his name and that of his horse, then we give the name that Elves gave to themselves, implying that Oromë would have ask that in return and then we add the information that he named them Eldar (with the implicit logic, that they after meeting him, would recognise that they are not the only speaking beings and couldn’t use that as a name any longer). A similar story line argument can be made about the love of Oromë to the Elves, that is in our version told in CE-EX-25 and not in CE-EX-05.5.

Arvegil145, to be a bit more precise, you would wish that the project would take up the sentence from AAm where Menelmacar is named ‘a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world’.
The project discussed about the return of Túrin from the dead that was proposed alternatively for the War of Wrath or the Last Battle. We decided against that, as the later ideas about the fate of Men would hardly allow that. (It would be a miracle => a direct invention of Eru and as that unforeseeable.)
Now in the sentence you proposed the connection is not made as directly as in what we rejected, but I still think it is saver to let it out.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: The argument about which group of people are the source of information, has not any weight in the project, as long as we don’t implement a direct statement about it. Long ago the project decided that we are not trying to create any text that proposed to have a Middle-earth equivalent. That means as long as we are not directly indicating that the information given in our text is ‘tainted’ by the way it was recorded, the information we provide have to be as true as possible to what the project finds to be the true story of Middle-earth.

Arvegil145 · 09-08-2023, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

Elvellon, please excuse my late answer. Yes, CE-EX-05.5 was removed because all that was said in that passage is repeated in what we inserted in CE-EX-25. Beside that, I think it would be strange from a storyline perspective if Oromë would first name the Quendi Eldar, before they ask him his name and the name of his horse. As we put the passages together, Oromë is first asked his name and that of his horse, then we give the name that Elves gave to themselves, implying that Oromë would have ask that in return and then we add the information that he named them Eldar (with the implicit logic, that they after meeting him, would recognise that they are not the only speaking beings and couldn’t use that as a name any longer). A similar story line argument can be made about the love of Oromë to the Elves, that is in our version told in CE-EX-25 and not in CE-EX-05.5.

Arvegil145, to be a bit more precise, you would wish that the project would take up the sentence from AAm where Menelmacar is named ‘a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world’.
The project discussed about the return of Túrin from the dead that was proposed alternatively for the War of Wrath or the Last Battle. We decided against that, as the later ideas about the fate of Men would hardly allow that. (It would be a miracle => a direct invention of Eru and as that unforeseeable.)
Now in the sentence you proposed the connection is not made as directly as in what we rejected, but I still think it is saver to let it out.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: The argument about which group of people are the source of information, has not any weight in the project, as long as we don’t implement a direct statement about it. Long ago the project decided that we are not trying to create any text that proposed to have a Middle-earth equivalent. That means as long as we are not directly indicating that the information given in our text is ‘tainted’ by the way it was recorded, the information we provide have to be as true as possible to what the project finds to be the true story of Middle-earth.

But there are numerous references to the idea of Mannish (Numenorean) transmission in the project as a whole!

And as for Turin 'returning from the Doom of Men': as per one of the notes to Tolkien's commentary on the Athrabeth, the 'myth' appearing at the end of the Silmarillion (which this subforum still names 'The Second Prophecy of Mandos') is essentially a Mannish prophecy.

So I don't really see any problems with including 'Mannish garblings/myths' into the wider TNS.

Findegil · 09-11-2023, 05:37 AM

Excuse me, I think the discussion drove me away from straight thinking. I have to take back most of my last post. As we retained Túrins return fpr the Last Battle, we can of course as well have Menelmakar as sign of him.

But as we did not use AAm so fare we have to think of how to incooperat it. What about this:

Quote:

... {and}And other of her works of old she gathered together and set as signs in Heaven that the {Gods}[Valar] may read: CE-EX-03.35<AAm The greatest of these was Menelmakar, the Swordsman of the Sky[u],[/u[<moved from below with his shining belt>. This, it is said, was a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.>Others were Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma{; and Menelmakar with his shining belt that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be}. And high in the North as a challenge unto Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, the {Valakirka}[Valacirca], the Sickle of the {Gods}[Valar] and sign of doom. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

Arvegil145 · 09-12-2023, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

Excuse me, I think the discussion drove me away from straight thinking. I have to take back most of my last post. As we retained Túrins return fpr the Last Battle, we can of course as well have Menelmakar as sign of him.

But as we did not use AAm so fare we have to think of how to incooperat it. What about this:Respectfully
Findegil

I agree with your passage.

Aiwendil · 09-12-2023, 07:56 AM

This works for me, except that I think it should be "Menelmacar", as it is pure Quenya (not Valarin-derived like Melkor or Tulkas).

Findegil · 09-13-2023, 02:30 AM

Oops! forogt to change that. Thanks for catching.

Respectfully
Findegil

10-10-2021, 07:52 AM	#86
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 246	Hi there. I would propose to try in another thread the making of a new Yenonotie with the additions of NoME if they can be taken into account. And then try to incorporate them into the text. In order to be as faithful as possible to the narrative sequence. Last edited by gondowe; 10-10-2021 at 07:57 AM.

08-19-2023, 09:40 AM	#89
Elvellon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2023 Location: New Jersey Posts: 43	Probably a silly question, so please bear with me, because I feel like I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle here. I've been trying to sort it out. Why in CE-EX-05.5 is the line removed about Oromë naming the Quendi Eldar? There is no explanation here that I can find, but I may have missed it. My working assumption is that a decision was made somewhere along the way, perhaps in another thread, to keep "Eldar" only for Elves of the Great Journey. If that's the reason, can someone point me to the place where this was decided? I'd be curious to read the arguments for and against. The other reason I ask is because in CE-EX-25, the reference to Oromë naming the Eldar remains. Perhaps it was an issue of avoiding repetition? I regret being such a late-comer to this project, so apologies for retreading ground that was settled long ago. Edit: Nevermind. I think I answered my own question mere minutes after asking it. Last edited by Elvellon; 08-19-2023 at 09:56 AM.

08-25-2021, 06:06 AM	#81
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	CE-EX-28.4: Okay, so we propose {Vorotemnar}[Voronutalë] and {Ilterendi}[Laterendi]. Let's see if Aiwendil does agree to this. Respectfully Findegil

09-24-2021, 08:36 PM	#82
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Just wanted to pop in and say I'm reading through the latest discussion and writing some comments. Sorry, once again, for my tardiness. I hope to be able to get on with this next week.

10-08-2021, 01:43 PM	#83
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Just popping in to say that there's a lot of new material to consider for this chapter from the Nature of Middle-earth book which was published last month. I wanted to ask everyone's opinions: should we hold off on any additions/changes stemming from that book until we've all come to an agreement on what we have so far? I feel like we should settle our central debates before introducing more, but if we think it's fine I could propose some inclusions and changes based on the new material.

10-09-2021, 11:03 AM	#84
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	Aiwendil, what do you think about ArcusCalions question? I have learned in some older cases that to hold any impulse for posting in this project back has always done more harm than good. But that is only my oppinion. Respectfully Findegil

10-09-2021, 04:30 PM	#85
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Yeah, I expect we're going to have some interesting discussions about a lot of the new material, and I don't see much point in holding those back. (As a matter of fact, reading and thinking about that book have already rather distracted me from the response I was working on here, for which I apologize!) My personal opinion at this point is that the large corpus of new material from part I of that book is, in the end, not actually going to have a huge impact on the project, but naturally I expect rather a vigorous debate on that subject! At any rate, I do still intend to lay out my thoughts on the latest proposal here, but I don't see any reason that couldn't happen in parallel with the other discussion.

10-11-2021, 06:13 AM	#87
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Gondowe, I actually have made a draft of a 'Yenonotie' style work combining several of the 'time' related texts from NoME and HoME. I can post that at some point, but it was not actually as difficult as might be thought once a thorough understanding of the texts, their history, and the applications to the legendarium are considered.

10-13-2021, 08:07 AM	#88
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 246	Hi Arcus. I also started a Yenonotie but I see that adapting to the new situation is very difficult. Seeing that Aiwendil opened a new thread about this we talked there.

09-08-2023, 02:07 AM	#91
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	Elvellon, please excuse my late answer. Yes, CE-EX-05.5 was removed because all that was said in that passage is repeated in what we inserted in CE-EX-25. Beside that, I think it would be strange from a storyline perspective if Oromë would first name the Quendi Eldar, before they ask him his name and the name of his horse. As we put the passages together, Oromë is first asked his name and that of his horse, then we give the name that Elves gave to themselves, implying that Oromë would have ask that in return and then we add the information that he named them Eldar (with the implicit logic, that they after meeting him, would recognise that they are not the only speaking beings and couldn’t use that as a name any longer). A similar story line argument can be made about the love of Oromë to the Elves, that is in our version told in CE-EX-25 and not in CE-EX-05.5. Arvegil145, to be a bit more precise, you would wish that the project would take up the sentence from AAm where Menelmacar is named ‘a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world’. The project discussed about the return of Túrin from the dead that was proposed alternatively for the War of Wrath or the Last Battle. We decided against that, as the later ideas about the fate of Men would hardly allow that. (It would be a miracle => a direct invention of Eru and as that unforeseeable.) Now in the sentence you proposed the connection is not made as directly as in what we rejected, but I still think it is saver to let it out. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: The argument about which group of people are the source of information, has not any weight in the project, as long as we don’t implement a direct statement about it. Long ago the project decided that we are not trying to create any text that proposed to have a Middle-earth equivalent. That means as long as we are not directly indicating that the information given in our text is ‘tainted’ by the way it was recorded, the information we provide have to be as true as possible to what the project finds to be the true story of Middle-earth.

09-12-2023, 07:56 AM	#95
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	This works for me, except that I think it should be "Menelmacar", as it is pure Quenya (not Valarin-derived like Melkor or Tulkas).

09-13-2023, 02:30 AM	#96
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	Oops! forogt to change that. Thanks for catching. Respectfully Findegil