Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing? - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Parmawen · 07-21-2005, 09:38 PM

[QUOTE=Bêthberry]Parmawen, it is possible that authors, even very highly ethical ones, don't always share contemporary understandings of sexual mores or ethics. You might want to read more in Tolkien's letters and his other texts for his concept of chastity and sexual ethics. For instance, in Tolkien's theory about elven marriage, "sex out of wedlock" is not possible. For elves, the very act of sexual intercourse constitutes marriage. In fact, for him, the social or cultural control is very much the less important aspect, as Tolkien disliked any wiff of imposed authority. Thus, he made the personal and private choice or decision the determiner of the state of marriage. I suppose one way of saying this is to suggest that for Tolkien sexual intercourse was not fallen, and so that the act of sexual intercourse was the act of marriage. You slept with someone, you were married to that person. Desire for elves was apparently pure in this way. QUOTE]

You have a very good point...and I certainly never knew that about elves. I suppose, it's more that I don't want to believe that Arwen and Aragorn would have been having sex, since for me, it detracts from the mysterious and elegant beauty of it all. Lastly, where did you find these letters/texts? I'd love to read into them more

Bêthberry · 07-22-2005, 10:28 AM

Hello Parmawen,

Tolkien's letters can be found in The Letters of J R R Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, 1995. It is easily available as a HarperCollins paperback. The collection is not complete, but for now it is the best we have.

Other information about Tolkien's writings, drafts, the way his ideas changed as he rewrote his mythology can be found in the 12 volume collection History of Middle-Earth by Christopher Tolkien. There is also interesting stuff in Unfinished Tales, published under J R R Tolkien's name and edited by Christopher Tolkien. All available as HarperCollins paperbacks. I would think that most libraries carry at least the History of Middle-earth, as mine does.

So, dig in! In answer to the specific question about elven marriage practices, I bet Helen, aka Mark12_30 or Child of the 7th Age could give you the exact quote, line by line. Or piosenniel or Mithadan. It was a contentious issue in one of their RPGs about the Lonely Star.

Parmawen · 07-31-2005, 08:29 PM

Thanks Bêthberry! I'll definetely look into it!

Lotrelf · 03-20-2014, 09:13 PM

As said, this is a "mature" discussion, so I'm avoiding reading the whole thread. But in the movies I didn't really like those scenes of Aragorn and Arwen. In the book I was kind of suprised seeing Aragorn does not keep fantacizing about Arwen all the time. Books are clean and do not contain anything like this except Eowyn and Faramir's kiss (that one wasn't awkward to me). But Aragorn and Arwen went toooo faaaaar in the movies! May be that's just me.

07-21-2005, 09:38 PM	#81
Parmawen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stuck in the center of Spooky Hollow... Posts: 75	[QUOTE=Bêthberry]Parmawen, it is possible that authors, even very highly ethical ones, don't always share contemporary understandings of sexual mores or ethics. You might want to read more in Tolkien's letters and his other texts for his concept of chastity and sexual ethics. For instance, in Tolkien's theory about elven marriage, "sex out of wedlock" is not possible. For elves, the very act of sexual intercourse constitutes marriage. In fact, for him, the social or cultural control is very much the less important aspect, as Tolkien disliked any wiff of imposed authority. Thus, he made the personal and private choice or decision the determiner of the state of marriage. I suppose one way of saying this is to suggest that for Tolkien sexual intercourse was not fallen, and so that the act of sexual intercourse was the act of marriage. You slept with someone, you were married to that person. Desire for elves was apparently pure in this way. QUOTE] You have a very good point...and I certainly never knew that about elves. I suppose, it's more that I don't want to believe that Arwen and Aragorn would have been having sex, since for me, it detracts from the mysterious and elegant beauty of it all. Lastly, where did you find these letters/texts? I'd love to read into them more __________________ I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew. Of wind I sang, I wind there came, and in the branches blew... -Galadriel

07-31-2005, 08:29 PM	#83
Parmawen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stuck in the center of Spooky Hollow... Posts: 75	Thanks Bêthberry! I'll definetely look into it! __________________ I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew. Of wind I sang, I wind there came, and in the branches blew... -Galadriel

03-20-2014, 09:13 PM	#84
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	As said, this is a "mature" discussion, so I'm avoiding reading the whole thread. But in the movies I didn't really like those scenes of Aragorn and Arwen. In the book I was kind of suprised seeing Aragorn does not keep fantacizing about Arwen all the time. Books are clean and do not contain anything like this except Eowyn and Faramir's kiss (that one wasn't awkward to me). But Aragorn and Arwen went toooo faaaaar in the movies! May be that's just me. __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

07-22-2005, 10:28 AM	#82
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	Hello Parmawen, Tolkien's letters can be found in The Letters of J R R Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, 1995. It is easily available as a HarperCollins paperback. The collection is not complete, but for now it is the best we have. Other information about Tolkien's writings, drafts, the way his ideas changed as he rewrote his mythology can be found in the 12 volume collection History of Middle-Earth by Christopher Tolkien. There is also interesting stuff in Unfinished Tales, published under J R R Tolkien's name and edited by Christopher Tolkien. All available as HarperCollins paperbacks. I would think that most libraries carry at least the History of Middle-earth, as mine does. So, dig in! In answer to the specific question about elven marriage practices, I bet Helen, aka Mark12_30 or Child of the 7th Age could give you the exact quote, line by line. Or piosenniel or Mithadan. It was a contentious issue in one of their RPGs about the Lonely Star.