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#81 |
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I found not the Entwives!
In light of this absurd thread, I thought I would post so new and exciting information regarding the Entwives. I have found irrefutable evidence that the Entwives do not exist! That’s 100% correct, to find out exactly where in the LotR this is stated, you need to consider what we know from the FotR and something rather interesting from the TTT. Keep in mind that I have no inclination of revealing any of this information out of fear of being wrong but I am sticking by my guns. So with my clues, happy hunting…
I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community. What a waste. |
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#82 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Umm...let's be serious, if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives.
But it isn't, because it isn't obvious at all. It might seem obvious to some, but perhaps not to Tolkien. All in all, I think the quotes from the Letters pretty much sum it all up.
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#83 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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#84 | |
Beloved Shadow
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It is obvious that you do not understand how we are treating this topic- specifically when we are being over the top for entertainment purposes. Here's a link to the novices and newcomers forum. Why don't you hop over there and start a thread about Balrog wings or something.
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#85 | |||
Beloved Shadow
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If Elves made ropes that could come untied when commanded, it would not be "magic" to them- it would just be rope, and Haldir would be just as willing to "magically" untie rope as he was to "magically" run across rope. Quote:
If you had lived in the early 1900s, I suppose you would've been saying, "If that crap that Einstein is talking about was really true, then many other physicists would be saying it already." ![]()
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#86 | ||
Odinic Wanderer
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Youe argument is that there is no such thing as magic in LotR or at least that is the consequenses. If we were talking about "magic" or "whichcraft" in our world then I would gladly agree with you, but to draw a paralel between this world and ME seems wrong to me. It seems to go against the spirit of the books. Is the mirror of Galadriel not magic either? or is it just like watching the telly? Quote:
They are being followed (check) It would be usefull if the rope chose drop now (check) Sertain doom if rope does not drop oh darn the last one was not pressent therefor it cannot be magic! |
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#87 | |||||||
Eagle of the Star
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#88 | |
Beloved Shadow
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#89 | ||||
Beloved Shadow
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Okay, okay... here's a real response to the points you have raised.
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Example- An elf runs over snow = normal "magic" In a desperate situation an elf runs over water = not normal "magic" (must be divine intervention) My argument is that the rope is either made to come untied upon command or it isn't. If it was not made that way (if it coming untied was not normal) then there was some sort of divine intervention involved. But obviously the situation did not call for divine intervention. Therefore we must assume that the rope was designed to come untied, or that someone/something untied it. I have already given many reasons as to why I do not believe it was designed to come untied, and so the inescapable conclusion is that the rope was physically untied. Quote:
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Just like making "magic" cloaks. It is simply an enhanced ability naturally possessed and developed by some Elves. And logically, rope making would be the same. I don't see how any of the other quotes you gave disproves my view of magic. As a matter of fact, they support it. Quote:
Anyway, there you go. The explanation has been given. I think you guys just need to accept the fact that I found the Entwives. ![]()
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#90 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
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#91 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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Okay, now that we've fixed that- you are correct if you are defining "normal" as "something they themselves could do". BUT something is not "magic" just because you can't do it. I can't bowl a perfect 300 game. That does not mean that bowling a 300 game is magical, or that the person who did it was using any sort of magic. The ability to bowl a perfect game, while not common, is normal, in the sense that it is a feat that can be achieved naturally by a human being who fully develops a strong natural gift. I think this explains your point about Feanor and his "magical" works. Sure, Feanor's skill was far beyond everyone else, but it was natural. His works were not beyond someone possessing his level of skill and focus and his amount of learning. So his works, though amazing, were in fact normal for someone of his stature. As far as your point about creating things that can never be duplicated (Silmarils, the two trees), the sports analogy works well for that too. There are some feats in the career of a baseball/basketball/football athlete that can logically never be equaled. A perfect storm can hit where he is at the top of his game, going up against opponents he knows well, playing in stadiums that favor his style, and to top it off he has an amazing run of great luck. No matter what your hobby or profession is, there is going to be one moment, one day, or one accomplishment that will be your best- something you will never equal. One place and time where every bit of your natural skill and your circumstances will hit full stride. It's not "magic". It's perfectly normal. It's life. Well, there you go. I hope I worded that well enough for you to see where I'm coming from. As far as your take on divine intervention, honestly- divine intervention is used merely to create a feel-good moment? I don't buy it. Sam and Frodo showed themselves capable of dealing with a heck of a lot more than a lost rope. I seriously doubt it would cause them to have an emotional breakdown.
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#92 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
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#93 | |||
Beloved Shadow
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If we meet a race of aliens from Neptune that cannot make audible sounds but communicate telepathically, would you honestly call what they do "magic"? No. It would just be different and amazing. Also, our ability to communicate orally would be just as different and amazing from their point of view, so if what they do is indeed "magic" then our ability to speak is equally magical to them. Quote:
That's a fine theory. It fits nicely with my view of "magic"- that it is specific and precise. And it could also explain the inconsistency with Haldir in Lothlorien untying the rope. You can certainly choose to believe that if you wish. I can't think of anything to definitively refute it. But my instinct tells me that Elves wouldn't design a rope like that. Can you imagine anyone building a microwave that would only work for starving people, who were desperately hungry? It's not efficient. If you're going to make something that works, wouldn't it make logical sense to allow it to work all the time? Just like the boats from Lothlorien. They weren't just light when they needed to be carried. The cloaks weren't camouflage only when enemy eyes were upon them. Now, items more unique and special, like Galadriel's vial of light, I can see being more complex and containing emotional and vocal triggers. But rope- I have difficulty believing it.
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#94 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Phantom, central to your theory is the proposition that Haldir would not have been able to resist showing off Elven magic - technology - whatever you want to call it, to the Fellowship on the journey through Lothlorien.
Even were it not for the fact that he is a member of a notoriously secretive Elven society whose laws would not even allow those travelling through their realm know the route to its capital, that is pure speculation. Seems like your on pretty shaky ground to me. Oh and ... Quote:
Other than that, I note that you failed to address my original points: Quote:
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#95 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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I've also established that "magic" items are simply made the way they are and that they are used as they exist. In other words, you won't hear Celeborn say "Outsiders are coming! Quickly, flip the magic switches on your cloaks so their magic stops working!" It's not like that. The Elves make objects that have special properties, and that's the way they are, and the Elves use them as they are. If their ropes come untied without effort, that's what they do. Would that be a closely guarded secret? And is Haldir even an Elf who guards secrets closely? Hmmm? Think about it. He completely reveals to the Fellowship the way in which the Elves of Lothlorien cross rivers, doesn't he? If Pippin, for instance, was in league with Dol Guldur, he could report "There are no bridges anywhere across the streams and rivers of Lothlorien. The Elves use ropes to cross." Haldir also let the hobbits up into their flet, and they revealed to the Fellowship that they had led the Orcs astray with fake voices. So let's not pretend that Haldir and company were obsessively secretive. Quote:
You cannot say that things can magically happen outside of rules and explanations just because it is a work of fantasy. That is an insult to the level of realism that Prof Tolkien worked so hard to create. (of course, I'm not saying you were trying to insult JRRT)
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#96 | |||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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#97 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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![]() Phantom, of course there are rules within Middle-earth, I mean Gandalf can't storm into Mordor and blow up Barad-dur with a fireball out of his...erm...hand. But, just because there are limitations to the 'magic' in Middle-earth doesn't mean everything from Middle-earth is exactly how it is in our 'real world.' Let's take the Old Forest for example...Old Man Willow was a tree: Quote:
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Yes, there are limitations to 'magic' in The Lord of the Rings...but that doesn't change the fact that (as SpM points out) The Lord of the Rings is in the fantasy genre and not everything from the real world behaves as it does in Tolkien's story. So, we end up with ropes that can untie themselves, nasty trees that try to eat hobbits, gynormous spiders...and so on.
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#98 |
Beloved Shadow
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In the secret Barrow-Downs headquarters, the BDs admin/mod team have their weekly meeting.
BW: All right, I think that's all of the old business taken care of. Anyone have any new business? Mithadan: Well, there is the Entwives thread. Underhill: What about it? It's an old thread, and a pretty harmless topic. Mithadan: TP's been on there lately. He's insisting that an Entwife untied Sam's rope in the Emyn Muil. *laughter* Mithadan: No, I'm afraid it's no laughing matter. He seems to be dead serious about it. BW: Hmm... well, I suppose we ought to do something. Letting such an absurd idea stand on our board doesn't reflect well on us. Esty: Sure, but what can we do? If he is indeed taking the issue seriously, we can't warn him for chatting or silliness. And we certainly can't turn into the thought police and punish him for holding a unique opinion. Morm: That settles it, then. We've got to take his idea on directly- debate with him. Underhill: I don't know about that. Whoever debates him might be looked down upon for even bothering to argue with him, and sinking to his level of ridiculousness. SPM: I'll do it! *all eyes turn to SPM* BW: Are you sure, SPM? SPM: Yes, of course. I'd never miss a chance to spar with TP. Anyway, my reputation around here is so high that I don't have to worry about looking bad every once and a while. BW: All right, then it's settled. SPM is assigned to shut down the Entwife thread. *pounds gavel* ![]() You haven't shut me down just yet, SPM. I've only been busy. Within the day I will answer your questions- and yours, Boro. Be prepared. I will convert you yet.
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#99 | |||||
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Also, by the time they left Lothlorien they were not strangers, but were given much Elvish technology. Each piece of tech was explained as well. They found out about the lembas. They were taught to handle the boats. They were told about the virtues of their cloaks. Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed. No, no, no... there is no argument to that. Don't try it. Seriously. I'm warning you, SPM. Quote:
The whole point of this thread is that Tolkien hid the Entwives and I found them. You can't hide under a sign that says "I'm right here!" can you? So the lack of an official Entwife marker goes without saying. Quote:
When Middle-Earth is different from this world Tolkien tells us about it. But unless he says otherwise, it is the same. Tolkien never has an in depth discussion of gravity, thus we can assume that the rules work the same. Tolkien worked hard to make Middle Earth real. If you can find an exception or two, I guarantee you that given more years of life Tolkien would have corrected it. Quote:
There! If anyone ever again tries to use the "but it's fantasy" argument on my thread I'm just going to link them back to this post.
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#100 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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"... but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.” Case closed. ![]()
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#101 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 985
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![]() In a more serious vein, I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. I think of "magic" as almost synonymous with "miracle". C.S. Lewis defined miracles (I'm paraphrasing) as displays of supernatural power which supercede the ordinary laws of physics. I think what TP is attempting to assert (though I'm open to correction)is that what some people call "magic" is just a better understanding of the "laws of physics" that govern the universe of Middle Earth. Sort of like the formulaic, assembly-line magic in the Harry-Potter books. What TM seems to be arguing is that while the use of "magic" in Middle Earth is more rare than in HP, it is still part of the "natural order" in that if the same elf does the same thing in the same way, you should get the same result. As opposed to "real magic", what I would call a "miracle", and which is probably closest to what Tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the kind of thing that cannot be counted on to recur. Although a television would be called magic not-so-many generations ago, having a television back then would be ultimately useless. A television (the processor) is a device that requires a couple of things external to itself for it to function as it was intended -- electricity (power) and a broadcast signal to receive and transform into visuals (direction). Perhaps (and this is just theory to toss around in discussion) Elves differ from Men in that they have not only the better understanding of the processes governing Arda (the "television"), but also the innate connection to Eru/immortality/what-have-you (the "electricity") and the ability to order their (forgive me if the terms are inexact) spirit in such a way as to give direction to that power to affect the natural world (the "broadcast signal"). So as to confuse the discussion further, let me intentionally mix my analogies a bit. The wizards of the Harry Potter universe are analogous to the Elves of Middle-Earth in that they each have the innate ability to call upon whatever power-source to affect their respective natural worlds, but according to laws and rules known to each. Correspondingly, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves lack this innate ability, being the "muggles" of Middle Earth. The difference between HP and ME, as I see it, is that in HP, the amount of "backing power" behind the "magic" appears to be limitless -- the wizards seem to be mere channels of some natural power outside themselves, the only difference in wizards being the level of their ability to channel whatever power supplies them. In ME, on the other hand, using "magic" seems to require a portion of that being's native strength, which can be exhausted if overused -- e.g. Morgoth pouring so much of his power into Arda that he himself was weakened to the point of being trapped in a fixed guise, or Sauron infusing the Ring with so much of his native power that he was reduced to almost nothing when it was destroyed, or Gandalf being weakened by his struggle with the Balrog over the door in Moria. It perhaps explains much about why magic is used so infrequently in ME. It's a flawed analogy, I'm sure, but it was helpful to me in trying to understand TP's point of view. I now return you to your normal interesting discussion. EDIT: This would also nicely explain why Feanor could not duplicate the creation of the Silmarils -- he had poured so much of his innate strength into their making, that he was incapable of doing it twice. Just a thought.
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#102 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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#103 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: England
Posts: 96
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Got reminded of how much I love this thread and decided to repost here.
Every so often, I'll visit this thing, go over the OP and mull over what Teleporno said, years later and it's probably obvious the guy was a hoaxer, but what can I say? He inspired me! Perhaps he believed in what he said. But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot. But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests? Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision. But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction. Teleporno stated the importance of the womens liberation movement, what if the fate of the Entiwives reflects the other women, the ones who stayed within the old patriarchal system - waiting for things to change rather than changing them themselves? What do you think?
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#104 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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#105 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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Elvish song of the Entwives
This is from the song of the Entwives:
When spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade; When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid; When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air, I'll linger here and will not come, because my land is fair. Fragrance fills the air in Ithilien, but the general type of trees are not orchard species, and the trees at the crossroads are far too large to fit the type described by Treebeard: "But the entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forest; and they saw the sloe in the thicket... and the green herbs in the waterlands... and bear leaf and fruit..." I do not know of any reason to suppose the Entwives were even 'treeish'. Though they had "the eyes of our people" they also had hair parched by the sun. This is why I'm not inclined to think the sighting of a tree that walked in The Shire was an Entwife. Though we're told they would like the Shire this sounds more like a searching Ent. Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill. While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.
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#106 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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![]() Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?
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#107 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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"When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air, I'll linger here..." It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were? Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land: "...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.
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#108 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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But I don't have anything against it. There were Elves passing around, such as Gildor's group. The only thing is that it would make Goldberry a really "wild teenager", or how to call it, a "total rebel" from both the Ent and Entwife lifestyle: roaming so incredibly far and spending time with Elves or whomever for a long time. And in the end, living in some pool where Tom found her (even if we discount the poem of Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where it is basically explicitely stated that she was the daughter of the River-woman, of course it depends on everyone how much "canonical" s/he deems it and whether we don't say that it's only what the folklore of Hobbits made out of the little they knew about Tom and Goldberry; there is still however Tom's explicit confession to Frodo and co. how he had found Goldberry in the river). Quote:
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#109 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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After all, Treebeard describes Gandalf as "the only wizard that really cares about trees." (LR p.455) Then again Treebeard does add that "I do not know the history of wizards" and in Letter 153 Professor Tolkien remarks of Treebeard that "there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came." (Letters p.190) That being said, as was quoted some years ago in this thread Professor Tolkien does offer some explanation for the Entwives' disappearance in Letter 144: "I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land", although he does leave room for surivors: "some, of course, may have fled east or even have become enslaved." So there is the possibility for a remnant to have ended up, seemingly, in Nurn or in Rhűn - a potential but I daresay unintentional association with, say, Dorwinion could perhaps be interpolated from this "fled east" suggestion. Of course he does make a point of saying in Letter 247 of the Ents that "the males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna." So perhaps there is room for an Entwife-Radagast connection even if Radagast was primarily interested in animals. That being said I personally am rather resistant to much embellishment of Radagast's role: for my own part I tend to feel that Professor Tolkien wrote very little about him for a reason: because he considered him to have done very little, and to be rather insignificant for all his origin. I don't wish to digress but to me Radagast, although doubtless a "worthy wizard" in his own way, is very much representative of the fallibility of the Valar and their plans, even if in a very different way to Saruman. Like Professor Tolkien I think it's nice to hope that the Entwives survived in some way, and I find the Ent/Entwife song to be very moving, but I think the Professor was wise to leave the matter ambiguous. That mystery, the sense of loss and the tiny hope of reunion and reconciliation which is so doggedly clung to is, in my view, more powerful and more valuable than him providing us with a hard and fast answer about what happened. |
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#110 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 92
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I have a theory that Entwives live happily in Lothlorien tending the Mallorn trees.
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#111 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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If that were the case though, surely Treebeard would have known. In addition, Aragorn had visited Lórien many times, yet the Ents were unknown to him. The Mirkwood Elves too would seem to have been well placed to at least have heard of their presence, yet Legolas knew nothing more of Ents and Entwives than old songs of his people.
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#112 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Sauron turned the entwives into trolls, and taught them how to drop their aitches.
Bad grammar, the greatest sin of Sauron.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#113 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 21
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I'm not sure Sauron or any of his followers had the knowledge of agriculture necessary to establish crops in the fields of Nurn that could feed the armies of Mordor. It seems reasonable that either captured Entwives or men who had been taught by Entwives may have had a hand in this.
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#114 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 21
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Thomasina, Berta and Wilhelmena. I'd imagine their conversation would have been more like a Mrs Brown's Boys sketch if that had been the case.
Last edited by Tar-Verimuchli; 08-30-2014 at 05:47 AM. |
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#115 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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#116 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Haunting the place isn't exactly the same thing as "living happily"' though, is it?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#117 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 92
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depends on your definition of haunting. I dont happen to call it haunting as in spooks floating around a graveyard going 'wooo', but more a Genius loci perhaps sent by Yavanna, seeing as she loves all growing things I suspect Entwives would be dear to her. |
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#118 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Quote:
Now, if you were to suggest that the entwives became treeish (bushy? bloomlike? shrubbish? ), then there is a precedent for that amongst ents and huorns; however, considering the Fellowship stayed for quite a while in Lorien without any hint of such a phenomenon, then it's still far-fetched.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#119 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 92
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never suggested there was textual evidence. its my own pet theory. I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit. |
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#120 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.
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