WWLXX: At the Prison of Ice

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I wouldn't so much say you backpedalled as that you haven't made it at all clear what you are proposing. You certainly seemed to be implying that we should lynch helpful people first and suspicious ones last. Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with– however, it's a point you could have made a lot more clearly and concisely.

I can do blunt, but clear and concise is not my thing.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.~Roa

But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.

Edit: crossed with sally and Nog

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?

Well, not necessarily, but worth bearing in mind.


Yes, Brinn, you're correct. I meant your suggestion that you might not vote. I'd say everyone should vote. If one has to vote early then do not vote random (if there are any real "random votes" - but throwing dices etc.) but use your guts or hunches. Not voting is not playing fair but sneaking.


EDIT: Means you as well Sally...

*pets Nog* Don't worry, precious, I'm hoping to vote. I just consider it more courteous to let you know of the possibility that I may not than for you all to be waiting for me to vote at the end of the Day and have me not show up.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones. (By the way, you most certainly do NOT fall into that category.) Reasonableness is a terrible reason to lynch someone. Yes, the gifted need to be somewhat suspected to live, but it's not our job to worry about them.

Now who's trying to continue the debate? Oh, that would be you. By carrying on about the gifted an what they're doing, you are giving pointers to the wolves about how to spot gifted, and you're distracting the village from doing actual wolf-hunting. Not to mention the whole idea of what Boromir says discourages us from voting for people that we find suspicious for fear that they may be gifted, something that you seem keen to press on everyone while at the same time coming up with ludicrous suspicions that have no merit, further distracting the village.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

The gasp was sarcastic. I thought that was obvious. I was annoyed by the lack of actual game play in favor of in character banter, even to the point of saying that we didn't know there were wolves, when we all clearly do.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.

Just to be clear, I said you were wrong, not suspicious. I believe you wouldn't have continued on like that were you evil. This is why we put pressure on people- to see how they react. Your reaction cleared you in my books, for now, at least.

[Thinlómien]

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

IC = late night for me and just few posts on the thread - and I've kind of lost my appetite for Captain Obvious -stuff.

Am I on something? Well I am actually on bagging us a wolf. And am pretty serious about it.

Oh, and:

Originally Posted by Roa

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones.

Okay. Let's see what stirred all this talk...

Originally Posted by Boro

And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?

I really can't see what you see there Roa. I see there a reasonable remainder that we easily lynch gifteds as they need to look a bit suspicious in general (an especialy more inexperienced players may actually be a little nervous overreacting to things and thus look guilty, that can happen to a veteran as well) - and that wolves playing reasonable are easily slipping under our radars early on. To me that doesn't imply we should lynch the reasonable ones but to be careful / to remember there is this side as well.

Of course we should lynch those who look suspicious, but looking at the lynchings from several games backwards our statistics make pretty sad reading... So we should bear that in mind. It's a different thing to say than "lynch the reasonable / do not lynch suspicious looking people"!

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

Yes, but I acknowledged that point – see my posts at #34 and #56.

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Me

I mean, yes, it's true we've lynched gifteds a lot lately, to the point where I can understand people getting paranoid– but there's really not much the village as a whole can do to prevent it.

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Me

Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with

What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

EDIT:X'd with Roa, Lommy and Nogrod. (Yes, the "molehill" is a coincidence!)

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

The only one doing that is you. I never suspected Boromir, I only disagreed with him. You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

A reasonable reminder of what, exactly, Nogrod? That we don't want to lynch gifteds? Well, duh, we all know that. What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...

I believe it's Nogrod's favorite past time-

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa

What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

Well, people like Brinn, Pitchie, Greenie, etc... tend to slip under everyone's radar because they are so very considerate and reasonable. And you should be knowledgeable of their stunning victories! They are the most dangerous wolves there are as you don't normally have anything on them because they play so carefully (and reasonably) and they really have triumphed.

Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

Originally Posted by Nerwen on Boro

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

Like you on her laziness...

But to be honest. It actually is, at least in part, meta-reasoning and I said so earlier talking about an "uncomfortable zone". I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while).

(Heh, feels like my first game here years ago when I was the seer and dreamt of Roa on the first Night and then tried to convince others she was a wolf while not being able to just say why... Oh those were the days... )

"Mountain building"... I love it everytime I have time for it!

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

That already happened last game. Back then it was quite fun since I was teamed with them, but if they are in cahoots together yet again, just kill me now.

Btw, I'm voting shortly since I'm done with work soon and I'm tired of looking over my shoulder in fear of getting yelled at by my boss..

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morsul

It has an odd tone about it... He(Or she, sorry name's a bit gender neutral) says basically the same thing about everyone but says it differently most important to me though are these ones-(I'll paraphrase)

....

Nerwen is fairly ambiguous in his quote but these 6 have similiar descriptions but 3 positive and three negative but based seemingly on the same logic of not doing much.

First off, it's he.

Then I don't understand where you're heading off to. Sure all 7 comments are similar - there wasn't much to draw conclusions from - but clearly (to me), 5 are neutral, one slightly negative (Inzil), and one slightly positive (Pitch). "Odd tone" is a very vague accusation. Can't argue with that...

Your reasons for your vote seem to come down to disagreements about Nerwen and Boro, mostly. I definitely did not come after everybody who disagreed with Boro, though. That's a misrepresentation.

Originally Posted by Morsul

I just disagree with this if he talked himself into a corner he could keep it up to look innocent

Maybe, but most likely, if he keeps it up, he will end up rubbing a sufficient number of people the wrong way and be lynched. An innocent who believes in his theory would risk that, not a wolf.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one.

Never claimed that my generalizations were perfect. In fact, I even joked about just that. I still think approaches like that are helpful, though. You criticise that I will miss at least one wolf with it - I say I will pick at least one wolf with it (or at least it helps to).

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention.

That's how Day1's go a lot. One person makes a series of strange comments and then gets lynched for it - sometimes it's a wolf, most of the times not. I read Boro's comments, and while I disagree with them, I don't think they point to his guilt. I think that perfectly justifies looking at other people's reactions to them. I don't see the problem at all.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Sounds as if you're saying anyone who said anything in response to Boro could be evil. Aren't you painting with a rather broad brush?

This is almost exactly a copy of what Morsul and Nerwen said before. *raises eyebrows severely*


Unless people start giving a better reason to suspect Roa than that slip, I shall call the whole thing silly.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while)

Nogrod, you say you're convinced of my guilt, but you refuse to give a reason why besides meta-gaming. And you openly state that you're looking for reasons to lynch me, meaning that you haven't actually got any.

I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.

++Nogrod

[Thinlómien]

I think the way Nogrod and Roa attack each other seems rather fabricated, so I'm assuming one or rather more probably both are wolves. Brinn, I knew they were in cahoots (I couldn't escape Nogrod's celebrations of that in RL), but I don't think that makes it improbable they could be fellows again (especially as Legate didn't play last time, but that goes already slightly meta). But really, if they were both innocent, why would they do this, with absolutely no evidence against each other and without recognising the baselessness of their accusations?

As for other stuff, I feel I can't quite get a grasp on the game. I suspect Nogrod and Roa, and Nienna and Mnemo a bit.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.

True, I just wanted to make it known I noticed the mistake. The response was actually directed towards Inzil though, who asks "really?" and I thought I was seeing deja vu from last game. I didn't say anymore, because like Nog was unsure of, and Nerwen wonders if we are tiptoeing a line.

For the record, I usually assume there are 3 wolves too, and sometimes their number is unclear, which leads to understandable slips. However, Legate articulated their number more than once, and so any honest slip ups seem less likely.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

I haven't considered it as an "attack" against me, and I agree with the last sentence, see my last post.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

If someone misrepresents the rules (either honestly or feigned) I see no reason why:

1. It should not be corrected
2. I see no reason others pointing out the number was provided in more than one place shouldn't be allowed.

There are certain meta-reasons that are always, and justifiably, off limits. The problem becomes, and I've said this to others before, believe it or not I've been holding back more than usual lately out of fear it's meta-reason and that's just unfair/unfun to everyone. But if someone uses meta-reasons as a defense for themselves or an excuse how fair is that?

The fact is Roa stated a wrong number, whether it's an honest mistake or faked ignorance, I don't know. But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I will say because of Nog's post about it, I buy the honesty in bringing it forward. If he's pulling one over kudos. Now he could be misleading, making a mountain out of a molehill, but it shows an honest willingness to lynch wolves.

That being said, Nog do you really think wolf-Roa would purposefully state the wrong number of wolves? What does she gain from acquiring what will surely be lots of uneeded attention?

True as your heart may be, I'm not going to vote for Roa based on those reasons. I intend to vote for people who have been around the block more than once and I've come to expect more from, but so far not seeing it.

Such as Inzil, Nienna, Pitch, and Mnemo. I know all about the fact that no one can dedicate the same time, or be as available as others. But you have all made your presense known throughout the Day, yet nothing stands out, besides naming a few people and/or saying you're here, but there's no more time to comment. Nienna, I find your second post a half-[bleep] attempt to contribute something (please don't take offense to that, I'm just saying I know you're one of the quieter thinking types, but I've still come to expect more out of you). And Mnemo in many ways you started the questions and controversies, but have since hushed up about it.

Which leads me also to Lommy...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

I smell a tentative Lommy who I have been expecting to see more from, but have not.

Edit: crossed with everything after Roa's #90

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, I think we all need to calm down and take some deep, cleansing breaths...

(Seriously, I can practically smell the testosterone.)

Am I the only one who's convinced that the current tiffs are just opinionated ordos going insane, and the real wolves are sitting back and practically rubbing their hands with glee?

Although Roa's CobNog theory is interesting... Still, I think that Nogrod as a good cobbler would try to hold out until after Day One to start wreaking havoc. I'd just like to lay off both of them for a while and look at other possibilities...

I am glad, however, that we no longer have the problem we had thirteen hours ago or so! At the very least Boro and Roa should be commended for their apt bit of pot-stirring.

Since we've been discussing wolf strategies so much (reasonability etc.), could we please try to look at things from other angles? What I'm thinking of is more of along the lines of IC versus OOC. With a good deal of us (that's where the strategy falls short--our beloved n00bs!) there's a huge paper trail for how they normally play as innocent villagers. I think that that's a much better indicator of wolf-hood than whether a person sounds reasonable or not.

Finally...

One simple request... could we try to get as many of our votes in as possible not in the last five minutes? Reason is our ally in Werewolf, and last-minute voting often precludes the possibility of its just exercise.

[Boromir88]

Speak of the scientist...looks like I jumped the gun prematurely on Mnemo.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The fact is Roa stated a wrong number, whether it's an honest mistake or faked ignorance, I don't know. But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I will say because of Nog's post about it, I buy the honesty in bringing it forward. If he's pulling one over kudos. Now he could be misleading, making a mountain out of a molehill, but it shows an honest willingness to lynch wolves.

The problem I have is not that he pointed it out, or even that he doesn't believe it was an honest mistake. My problem is that this is the ONLY point he has against me, and yet he claims that he is absolutely convinced I'm a wolf. The fact that he has to look for reasons to lynch me is evidence of the fact that HE HASN'T GOT ANY.

You may think that a cobbler Nogrod wouldn't go so far so fast, but I think he would- getting rid of one strong player, and forcing the village to lynch him on Day 2, means two days go by with out a dead wolf, and the village becomes significantly quieter.

[Pitchwife]

Back and reading up.

[Inziladun]

Once again, to address this:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This means that the actually interesting thing to talk about are the reactions to him. I see three possible wolfish responses. 1. Agreement, in an effort to lead the village astray side by side with an innocent Boro, 2. Plain disagreement, putting oneself on the majority's side anticipating the general disagreement or going along with it now that it's there, 3. Maintaining the discussion, so that the village wastes time talking about things that don't matter.

1: none
2: Nogrod, disagrees without a fuss, which actually doesn't look very suspicious; Pitch's comment might be suspicious.
3: Inziladun, starting with "Huh?" and continuing; Nerwen, first merely picking up what Roa and Inzil said, then going into attack now (which would look innocent if her tone wasn't so darn sinister); Morsul made himself comfortable on the fence.

When I said this:

Originally Posted by me

Huh?

It was bedtime, and I really didn't get where Boro was going with that line of thought. But then, to say I was 'maintaining the discussion', when all I'd said was this:

Originally Posted by me

I see [Boro's] point now regarding Gifted survival strategy, and yes, that sort of thing has led to their being lynched. But I don't see any certain way of divining which we're looking at: a nervous Gifted, or a brash wolf. Do you have any ideas?

That's a reach, Mac.
And it really does look to me as if you were leaving the door open to raise suspicion on anyone who responded to Boro's comments.

I don't read much into Roa's misnumbering the wolves. It wouldn't get her very far as a wolf, in my opinion, and I think she's quite savvy enough to know that.

x/d with Roa and Pitch

[Pitchwife]

I'm for giving Boro a break. He's loud, he's controversial, which isn't unusual for him. He's also somewhat difficult to pin down on one specific stance in the things he said. You might call that dodgy, or you might call it looking at the problem from several angles. At least he's been stirring the pot, let's have some more of that.
Roa's number slip seems odd, but I think if she were a wolf trying to mislead us she would have chosen something which couldn't have been proved false that easily.
Nog voting her for that, while hinting at more mysterious reasons which he doesn't bother to explain, makes me somewhat uneasy. Same for his earlier chiding those who leave till there's more to go on, when that's exactly what he did himself earlier, wandering off to his test tubes. I don't like double standards.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't read much into Roa's misnumbering the wolves. It wouldn't get her very far as a wolf, in my opinion, and I think she's quite savvy enough to know that.

As a matter of full disclosure, I did "mess up the numbers" last game when I was wolf. However, I wouldn't, as a wolf, employ the same strategy twice in a row. That would be obvious. And as a matter of fact, in that game, when I saw three other names on the wolf list, I had to double check the rules to make sure that I hadn't received a pm by mistake, because I was certain there were three wolves in the game. I was very surprised to find out there were four.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Roa and Nogrod could easily both be innocents. If so, they could be stoking the flames in order to gauge our reactions to the fight, or they could just as well be too stubborn for their own good.

Roa, Nogrod is not going after you solely because of that 3 wolf/4 wolf thing. He didn't like your reaction to Boromir's posts and he also is taking what you said personally (you called him unreasonable). He's got the idea in his head, and you're not exactly trying to appease him with gentle words.

Nogrod, if Roa is innocent then she is rightly baffled by your conviction of her guilt - as, I should think, most of us are. It was a very bold thing to say and now the village has to make a decision on it; if you had not mentioned conviction, we could easily have left this to simmer for a few days.

And now, I don't want to concentrate on these two any longer. There could be a villain or two among them but I don't want to make a rash decision in killing off one of the two most vocal players.

[Brinniel]

I almost forgot to vote! I'm a bit rushed since I have to run to class, but here we go..

The two people who stuck in my mind as suspicious are Nogrod and Nerwen. Nogrod's certainty over Roa's guilt seems a bit odd; why so confident on Day One? Whoever mentioned that his behaviour seems cobblerish, I agree. The problem is we don't even know whether we have a cobbler or not. As for Nerwen, she was very quick to jump on Roa's attack on Boro earlier; a very bandwaggonish move, which I find suspicious. So...

++Nerwen

Originally Posted by Lommy

Brinn, I knew they were in cahoots (I couldn't escape Nogrod's celebrations of that in RL), but I don't think that makes it improbable they could be fellows again (especially as Legate didn't play last time, but that goes already slightly meta).

Of course it's always possible...and it'd be almost funny if it did happen again. Anyway it seems quite typical for Nogrod and Roa to butt heads; though that does not necessarily point toward innocence or guilt.

[Pitchwife]

Talking about double standards, I also stumbled across this from Mac's first list:

Originally Posted by Mac in #27

Inzil says nothing that tries to look like something. Suspicious. Unfortunately, empirical knowledge tells me that I'm always led to believe he's guilty and then he's not.

The first sentence actually describes Mac's own behaviour in his two our three posts up to this point exactly. He's been more forthcoming in the meantime, but I'll have to look more closely at what he's actually saying.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

He didn't like your reaction to Boromir's posts

Nope, by his own words:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

[Mnemosyne]

All right, I've got an hour before I have to vote.

I am not voting for Nog, Roa, or Boro.

Okay, that narrows it down to... 16...

I'd rather vote for people who have made short, choppy posts than longer, more analytical ones. Unfortunately there wasn't so much to analyze earlier in the day. Still, the simple restatement of rules that happened with Loslote and Nienna kind of rankled. At least banterers aren't pretending to be helpful. Enough to vote on, though? Eehhhhhhh...

On the other hand, Morsul is irritatingly confusing and often confused. Which he is (for me, at least) elsewhere on the thread. Voting him would be easy, especially considering his vote for Mac.

Mac himself I can't place, but he's been making points which is better analysis fodder for later in the game.

Eomer hasn't been saying much, but what he's been saying has been valuable.

I'd like to hear more from Pitchwife and Inziladun to get a better feel for both of them. May vote for them... maybe... Both of them just feel a little off at the moment.

I'd also like to hear more from Brinn, but she's been acting normal as far as I can tell.

Our newer players I'll let slide for toDay out of courtesy, but if trom doesn't post something about the actual game itself before dl I'm going to be ticked.

Nerwen has been feeling solidly Nerwenish.

Need to hear more from Lommy... I think she's valid in pointing out that Nog and Roa might be in cahoots, but I don't think that that alone is justification for lynching one or both of them.

Greenie feels innocent; for some reason I think that if she were a wolf she would be posting a lot more than she has been.

Shasta... I need more from you, please.

wilwa hasn't posted so I can't say anything about her.

And I think that's it for now.

[A Little Green]

Huh. Well, at least we have had plenty of discussion! (Though I have to agree with Mnemo that deep, calming breaths might be in order..) I intended to write comments on posts written in my absence, but it seems to have become a post almost entirely on the Nog-Roa-issue. I apologise.

Originally Posted by Nog

That was an intentional "mistake". It just has to be.

Originally Posted by Nog, underlining mine

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

I don't get this. At all. It's possible that Roa's slip was intentional. I can't see why it's certain. As for the underlined part - he's basically saying "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a baddie". I don't like that.

Originally Posted by Lommy

But really, if they were both innocent, why would they do this, with absolutely no evidence against each other and without recognising the baselessness of their accusations?

My thoughts exactly.

Originally Posted by Boro, underlining mine

But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I don't count saying "That was an intentional mistake" as wondering that a honest mistake is less likely, do you? Because I don't see anything wrong in wondering that a honest mistake is less likely, either. But that wasn't what Nog did.

Originally Posted by Boro

That being said, Nog do you really think wolf-Roa would purposefully state the wrong number of wolves? What does she gain from acquiring what will surely be lots of uneeded attention?

I thought the same - where's the point? She'll gain a very small confusion that is bound to be cleared almost immediately. She might have gained a status as confused ergo not wolf (faulty logic, by the way), but somehow that doesn't sound like Roa to me. At all.

Originally Posted by Roa

You may think that a cobbler Nogrod wouldn't go so far so fast, but I think he would- getting rid of one strong player, and forcing the village to lynch him on Day 2, means two days go by with out a dead wolf, and the village becomes significantly quieter.

The problem about the cobbler-Nogrod theory is that while I believe a cobbler-Nogrod would go far and fast if need be, it doesn't suit him at all to intentionally rid the village of a loud and active player on Day 1, probably resulting in his own death on Day 2. He'd love having a bit more fun with his cobbler role, and also calculatingly targeting vocal players for gain doesn't sit right with his strong opinions on sportive ww-playing.

Argh. Roa and Nogrod, you can congratulate yourselves on giving me a headache. Earlier toDay I congratulated myself on not suspecting Nogrod for a change. And what does he do? Start writing some completely insane stuff, and I can't see why he would say such things as a wolf or a cobbler or an innocent. And I don't understand Roa, either.

I'll write a list soon in order not to concentrate too much on Nogrod's crazy behaviour.


EDIT: x-ed with Roa, Eomer, Brinn, Pitch, another Roa and Mnemo. I like seeing people around. It's nice.

[Pitchwife]

Looking at some of our quieter ones.
I'll give credit to Nienna (and to a lesser degree Lottie , as she mostly agreed with Ni)for their early effort to get the game started in earnest. It's not proof of innocence, of course; I could imagine a wolf wanting to appear eager and helpful so as to look like s/he cares about our best interests. On the other hand, it's no proof against them.

[Mnemosyne]

Out for lunch. Back in half an hour to make some decisions and vote.

[Macalaure]

Inzil - defense convincing; off hook for now; needs to say more
Nogrod - very strange; cobbler theory possible; Greenie's point valid, though
Nerwen - maybe not sinister, but certainly forceful; all taken into consideration, not very suspicious now
Morsul - seemed strange at first; vote post, while accompanied with disapproved vote, looks good
Pitch - too quick with declaration of innocence; not sure anymore

Seem innocent:
Boro, Roa, Mnemo

No reason to suspect, but under radar:
Lommy, Brinn, Nienna, Greenie
(must investigate more)

Reasonable in limited posts:
Eomer, Shasta

???:
Sally, Lottie, Bes, trom
(haven't played with them (except Sally), so I wouldn't want to vote them right away)

Not here (or did I overlook her?):
Wilwa

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fair enough, Roa, but my reading of Nogrod's posts #80 and #86 clearly concludes that he did not think much of your argument against Boro. He might deny this in #91 but it all adds up to why he's so strongly against you.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

The problem about the cobbler-Nogrod theory is that while I believe a cobbler-Nogrod would go far and fast if need be, it doesn't suit him at all to intentionally rid the village of a loud and active player on Day 1, probably resulting in his own death on Day 2. He'd love having a bit more fun with his cobbler role, and also calculatingly targeting vocal players for gain doesn't sit right with his strong opinions on sportive ww-playing.

For one, Nogrod doesn't kill loud players when he's a wolf because he sportingly likes to get them lynched. And if he can lynch them early, well, he's done quite a feat. For two, he would totally use such a thing as an excuse to get revenge on me for that first game he referenced earlier. And it looks like he's having fun to me. I mean, I'd be laughing my butt off right now if I were in his position.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Fair enough, Roa, but my reading of Nogrod's posts #80 and #86 clearly concludes that he did not think much of your argument against Boro. He might deny this in #91 but it all adds up to why he's so strongly against you.

Okay, then why would he back off it instead of using it to back up his suspicions? Why rely on the poor reasoning of a slip when he could be using my disagreement with Boromir against me? There's no reason for him not to, so why?

[Macalaure]

Hmm... I've been tuning out most of that Nog-Roa-Boro story, but now that I look at it, reading Nog's #80 and #91 right after each other, Nog is either confused, or twisting his own points.

He makes theories about Roa and Nerwen based on their behavior towards Boro, then he says he's not too interested in the whole thing.

edit: crossed with Roa

editedit: ok, I'm just repeating what others already said... never mind

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. Mnemo, I did mention I wouldn't be back until now.

X'd with Roa twice, Mac once.

[A Little Green]

LEANING INNOCENT:

Boromir88 - Seems innocentish to me.

Eomer - Makes very good points. I felt like applauding on reading his post about Nog and Roa. As has been said, making sense should not automatically point to innocence, but this far I have nothing at all that would point the other way.

Brinn - I like what I've seen this far.

Pitchwife - Likewise.

Macalaure - Not suspicious.

Lommy - Seems genuine and makes sense.

NEITHER OR BOTH:

Inziladun - No idea.

Loslote - No idea.

Nienna - No idea.

sally - Too little data to judge her by.

Nerwen - I'm very unconvinced either way.

Roa - Aaargh. Her points on Nogrod seem a bit flawed, then again Nog really is acting oddly and I can't really blame Roa for getting suspicious of him if she is innocent. Lommy's idea of the two of them being wolves together is interesting but I'm not sure if it isn't too easy - actually, a wolf-Lommy would love to create an idea like that - and then again, Lommy gives me very innocent vibes - (WW-headache, here I come.)

Bes - Too little data.

Shasta - Deep under my radar.

wilwa - Hasn't posted.

tromkehra - Too little data.

WARY OF:

Mnemosyne - A slight beep on my radar. I'll check her if I have time. There's something in her tone and her way of popping in and being kind of active but not rubbing anyone the wrong way that I don't like.

Morsul - His vote was very ill-reasoned in my opinion. Of course it is Day 1 and he had to vote early, but I didn't like it.

Nogrod - Enough said, I think.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

#19 - Inziladun makes a list of those who've posted and judges them. Weird thing is, nothing except in-character jesting has occurred. List seems pretty worthless. Strikes me as odd (just a little bit).

#53 - tromkehra: no substance at all! In-character jesting stopped many posts ago.

#57 - Macalaure thinks that wolf-Boro would not have kept arguing; I tend to disagree - I know Boro and he will never stop fighting! The best thing that wolf-Boro could do is stick to his guns. If he backed off that would be more suspicious (of course...he knows this too). I'm not getting anywhere nearer Boro's status but I disagree with Mac here.

#58 - Thinlomien. Not too useful here, I think. She makes a big list and judges everyone, but we're not really in a position to do that at that time. I'd be surprised if everyone read your thoughts on players who have barely been around, as it's not interesting and it's just a big block of text. Sorry!

#59- 'Morsul's criticism of Mac is interesting. He later voted for Mac.

[Pitchwife]

Morsul - looks like's got a time problem, yet making an effort to contribute, even without the leisure to think everything through coolly. Looks rather innocent at this point. His vote for Mac seems rather based on a hunch than a solid case, but with time being an issue, that's understandable.