Riddles in the Downs

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, it is slightly cryptic (okay, before somebody protests, read: more cryptic than usual from me ), but don't let that discourage you. Besides, sharpening your mind is an useful thing to do, surely the Riddle-masters Bilbo and Gollum would agree

[Morsul the Dark]

this riddle screams out Wormtounge and Theoden

Theoden would be deaf to everything that's going on due to Wormtounge's whispering
Wormtounge blinded by love for eowyn
Dark Dunharrow

Middle means something-

Rich man poor man,-um duh?
Theodred would be Theoden's son, and Grima's enemy

whether or not that's right I don't know

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Alas, not the right answer. But nice try, good to see somebody was brave enough and not scared away at first sight

[Morsul the Dark]

Weathertop and Baradur

Blind man and deaf man-Weathertop-lost its palantir(Blind) Baradur, the eye(deaf)
standing at dusk. Weathortop in west.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.- Bardur is Sauron's third home?
Blindness and deafness,- reiterating the above
forest and garth.- Old Forest near weathertop, garth(enclosed land) Mordor

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day. Baradur in the East
Enemy and a son
not far away. Enemy could be barrow-wight, and Aragorn is nearby baradur

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Again, nice try and brave approach, and some really quite inventive interpretations of some verses, but no. I think you sense yourself that in the case you make, the parts of the riddle would be a little too... random.

All the parts of the riddle convey something quite essential and important about "blind man and deaf man", something that is, hmm, "typical" for them.

[Pitchwife]

Húrin and Hardang (or whatever his final name was - the Halad of Brethil, aka Mr "Give-the-old-carl-a-stool") ?
Don't have War of the Jewels at hand to check all the details, but off the top of my head -

Blind man and deaf man
Húrin - blind to the shadow he brought with him, the Halad - deaf to Manthor's wiser counsel;

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Húrin from the Second House of the Edain, the Halad of the Third;

forest and garth
the Forest of Brethil and the enclosure of Obel Halad;

Rich man and poor man
When they first met, the Halad was a wealthy ruler, Húrin a poor wanderer; but at the moot, Húrin gained the support of the people (= became the rich man, metaphorically), while the Halad lost it (and subsequently his life);

Enemy and a son
not far away.
This is what first made me think of Húrin: both his son, Túrin, and the son's enemy, Glaurung, died 'not far away' from the scene of this tale.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That was a very, very, very good attempt and very inventive interpretation, which would have surely been correct, had the answer for my riddle been what you think

Alas, it is not. Nice try, but believe me when I say that the answer is not that obscure

[Rumil]

Well after PW's cracking attempt, not sure this is quite so erudite! Starting from the literal anyway....


Blind man and deaf man

- Frodo (temporarily blinded by lightning flash) and Sam (having difficulty hearing Frodo) ('man' used in general style)

standing at dusk.

- on the Emyn Muil

Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

- Ringbearer/ Gent & Ringbearer's mate/ Gardner

First of them second.

- Sam (second-in-command) tries the climb down first but Frodo insists he comes back, then tries the climb himself

Second's - third house.

- If 'second' is now Frodo, then he was from the third branch of the Bagginses -descended from Largo not Mungo or Ponto. Alternatively he had left his third house (Crickhollow, preceeded by Bag End and Brandy Hall)

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

- Frodo likes the forest, Sam prefers his garden?

Rich man and poor man,

- Frodo rich, Sam poor

brink of the day.

- before daybreak certainly

Enemy and a son
not far away.

- Gollum is the enemy not far away, and the next character met is Faramir, Son of Denethor. (Though Gollum was someone's son once!)

Hmm, probably not!

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Thank you, skip, well, it was the blue = Blue Mountains thing you said that really made me think of Dwarves, and then I thought "ninth in line" - well, there are not that many groups of people of which you could be ninth in line, are they? And "angry firestarter" made it clear then.

Anyway... so let's see about this.

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son
not far away.

Enjoy

just reposting to new page for now still thinking

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Rumil, your attempt is nice, inventive, and wrong But I daresay it looks positive, I think somebody could strike upon the correct answer soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A hint: the riddle is not saying plain facts and is using some poetic licence, but still, it's FAR less metaphorical than probably most of you think

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

A hint: the riddle is not saying plain facts and is using some poetic licence, but still, it's FAR less metaphorical than probably most of you think

I'm just seriously out of ideas

[Morsul the Dark]

I got it!

Someone and someone else?

*this Post equals BUMP*

[Beregond]

I'm going to pop in from obscurity to advance Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw as the "blind man" and "deaf man"... I can't make sense of the rest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, nothing like that. The former guess of Rumil with Emyn Muil, like I said earlier, was pretty good as for methods used. You can look at it. He even interpretated some parts of the riddle correctly, just assigned them to the wrong targets.

[Morsul the Dark]

Bilbo and Gandalf?

Stealing most of rumi'l explanationns the lightning flash comes fromgandalf in the cave...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That would be cool, alas not.

Okay! Time for BIGGER hints, since obviously not even my statement "take it less metaphorically and more literally" did not help anybody to think of the right answer!

I will therefore point out the parts which Rumil got right in his answer, as he got the closest of all:

Originally Posted by Rumil

First of them second.

- Sam (second-in-command) tries the climb down first but Frodo insists he comes back, then tries the climb himself

The interpretation of "second in command" is indeed correct here. Of course it does not need to mean that the person in the riddle is second in command to the other person in the riddle. The person can be second in command somewhere else, to somebody else...

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

- Frodo likes the forest, Sam prefers his garden?

Once again, basically the interpretation (but not the two targets mentioned) is correct here - of course we are talking that there is some relation between person 1 and forest and person 2 and garden, indeed.

Also, there is something pretty correct in Rumil's interpretation of the "rich man and poor man" part...

It is not that hard. Just put two and two together. If having the stuff organised better could help you, I would advise doing something like writing down two columns, one labeled "blind man" and the other "deaf man" (the two never change their place in the riddle, in every verse the first part refers to the former and the second to the latter - and in the "first-second" part, of course "first" is the "blind man" and "second" is the "deaf man") and noting there the attributes given to the two. Then just try to think of some good picks for which the attributes would fit. Maybe it would be more inspiring to try to think of them separately, like "okay, so blind man could be this, this or this..." and then comparing the two together and trying to find some relation. Something might light up in your mind. And then also bear in mind the things they have in common here: like "standing in dusk".

[Shards of Narsil]

Frodo and the Gaffer?

Earlier, someone had guessed Frodo as the blindman, which I can't totaly make fit, but for the Gaffer, was he not hard of hearing?

Standing at dusk at Bag End when Frodo was leaving the Shire and the Black Rider approached the Gaffer inquiring about Frodo.

First of them second - the Gaffer was first in terms of age, but second to Frodo in that he was an employee.

Second's third house - wasn't his address #3 Bagshot Row.

Forest and garth - Frodo like the forest, the Gaffer like the garden.

Rich man - Frodo, poor man - Gaffer.

Brink of day - the day after Frodo, Sam and Pippin left Bag End.

Enemy - the Black Rider
Son - Sam
both not far away.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha! Brilliant! Very close, Shards, very close! Almost correct! Almost! But you figured out some pretty particular aspects of the riddle, very, very well done!!!

But indeed, something does not fit here, for instance, was Frodo blind? The guess before counted with one particular moment, where Frodo was "blinded" for a while, but it was by no means any trait that would be more permanent. And the "first of them second" - I am not sure if I understood right what you are trying to say, but "First" means the same person who is blind, rich etc. And so this person is for some reason also second. Somehow. Somewhere. In something.

But really, you managed to guess quite a lot of the riddle, you deserve credit for that - try to think to make it fit, I'm sure you will. Still I need the correct answer about who the "blind man" and "deaf man" are.

[Rumil]

Shards of Narsil did a great job, if I'm right of course!

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk. - Nazgul (effectively blind) and Gaffer (pretty deaf)
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks? - Legate of Amon Lanc and Gardner to the Gentry

First of them second. - This particular Nazgul is Khamul, 2ic of the lot

Second's - third house. -Hmmm, tricky, we're talking about the Gaffer here yes? OK possible interpretations - they are at Bag End, that will become Gaffer's third house (first in Tighfield, second Bagshot Row, does he moves in with Sam and Rosie?). Maybe Gaffer's third house - Tighfield- somewhere in Hobbiton (as Holman would have been in Bagshot Row at first), Bagshot Row. Or Tighfield, Bagshot Row, New Row/Sharkey's End.

Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth. - Khamul's lair is in Mirkwood, Gaffer's in the garden

Rich man and poor man, - Khamul's probably loaded, Gaffer was glad of a sack of spuds
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son - Sam, - Khamul's enemy, Gaffer's son
not far away.

How am I doing Legate?

[Mnemosyne]

This has to be it. But "Third House" refers to number 3, Bagshot Row.

Very, very impressive, Rumil!!

[Rumil]

Doh! You must be right Mnem!! V Cool!

Shards of Narsil did the heavy thinking really

Where's Legate anyway?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, you are right, Rumil! (And Mnemo is right about the number three Bagshot Row, of course. For the record, Khamul was also said to be the "blindest" of all the Nazgul, especially in sunlight. And as for "richness", he was offering gold to all these farmers he met and asked them about Baggins. )

But nice - you may take the thread, good that somebody put the last pieces of puzzle into place at last! (Though Shard did a great job of moving it pretty far.)

[Morsul the Dark]

yeah... I wouldn't have gotten that...

[Rumil]

Great, riddle Legate,

It was a real collaborative effort to figure it out,

Cheers Shards and Mnem!

I don't think this one will prove quite so tricky

Here you go-

My home is up at the top of the hill,
that's the place for me,
I love to find unexpected guests
and have them in for tea.

Send them to sleep in sheets so soft
before helping them on their way.
Many rooms off, plenty of space,
why don't you come round to stay?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, my first idea would be of course Bilbo, though that sounds too plainly obvious to be true.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

your instincts are entirely correct, no its not Bilbo

I think he was more flustered by unexpected guests (especially dwarves in the larder!)

Guess on !

R

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well yes, but the very mention of unexpected guests at all - after all, it could have been ironic

But anyway, as for top-of-the-hill-dwellers who provide bed to unexpected guests and then send them on their way, what about Tom Bombadil? (Or Goldberry, for that matter.) I am not entirely sure about the tea, but then, why not.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

nope, not Tom or Goldberry,




R

[Morsul the Dark]

Shelob
top of cirith ungol
Find "guests"
to snack on(tea)

Soft Sheets, web
Helpng them on their way could mean helping them with that final "trip" death

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was also thinking about Mim the Petty Dwarf at one point, but then, he won't send them on their way, but make them stay, so I guess that's not it.

[Shards of Narsil]

He ran the Prancing Pony in Bree, which was a town on a hill. This may not fit well as I recall that the Inn was actually at the foot of the hill.

[Rumil]

Nice one!

Thought it wasn't going to mystify you too much, as long as the mood was twisted from 'light' to 'dark'

Oh the winner is, out of Legate, Morsul and Shards of Narsil


is















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Morsul!!

Very briefly but entirely accurately explained too,

Well done, all yours!

[Morsul the Dark]

Hordes fear me...
My final battle I have seen
My enemies' weakness discovered
This time I do not recover
For as my enemy dies
with him I lie

We'll see if that's as easy as I think it is...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think it isn't that ridiculously easy, as at least I cannot think now of anything that would really fit... of course I have some ideas, but they do not really fit...

[skip spence]

Could it be the Dead Men of Dunharrow?

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

how about Theoden?

Hordes of orcs and Southrons ran from him at the Pelennor, which was his final battle, but he did get to see Merry and Eowyn top the Witchking before he died.

?

[Morsul the Dark]

Nope though until I Read his guess I thought Rumil had it...

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Horders fear me...
My final battle I have seen
My enemies' weakness discovered
This time I do not recover
For as my enemy dies
with him I lie

We'll see if that's as easy as I think it is...

Also I made a spelling error here is the poem correctly spelled that might make it easier

[Morsul the Dark]

Clue:
The answer isn't a person...