Riddles in the Downs

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, it is just "He meant more for me than She (did)".

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, it is just "He meant more for me than She (did)".

Spoken like a non-native speaker who actually understands our grammar more than we do.

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm so convinced that Faramir is one of the answers considering the first two sets of lines fit so perfectly and would refer to his father... but I can't think of how that would work with anyone else.

Then it could be Elendil and Aragorn basically the same reasons as isildur but with the added benefit of he brought the palantir and Aragorn used it(Touched same Stone) but I don't know if Elendil had a disapproving friend and or father....

[Mnemosyne]

I've got the last couplet figured out... will need some Quality Canon time to get it down to specifics...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, this far no correct answer, but let's see what you still come up with...

[Pitchwife]

Do all the I's and He's actually refer to the same respective person? I.e. are all the verses spoken by the same person, and is it always the same He?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, there is just one "I" (the narrator), one "He" and one "Other" and one "She". "We" are "I" and "He" together, and these two especially are the main question whose answer I want you to find (though as I said, I would like to hear all - it's not hard at all once you know who "I" and "He" are).

(Reposting so that we have it on the same page and don't need to look far back.)

I'm just the second on His mind
He thought of Other more than of me

I'm just the second on His mind
Although for me He meant more than She

Me and Him, so alike We
Touch the same iron, touch the same stone

We never speak, We never meet
What tells you who We are? Our hands alone.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Come on, people, is it really so scary to try to answer my riddles? This one is really not that hard, it's not that the answer would be "Aredhel and Borondir's grandfather" or anything like that. It's easy.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

still pondering I'm sad to say.

I'm obviously out of practice with your twisted thinking ,

too many ideas, none of which entirely fit!

[Pitchwife]

Same here. I've got several ideas that would fit part of the riddle, but none that fits all, and most of them founder on the cliff of the last two verses (especially the 'never speek, never meet' thing).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Same here. I've got several ideas that would fit part of the riddle, but none that fits all, and most of them founder on the cliff of the last two verses (especially the 'never speek, never meet' thing).

Okay, be careful at least with the "never speak". It is true, but I can imagine that people can easily forget that it is so, or make a mistake. But if you have something that you think almost fits, better ask. Though I think if you knew the right answer, you would know that it is the right one - at least it should not be a problem to think of what all the parts refer to, once you had it.

[Rumil]

Hmm Legate,

does 'never speak, never meet' mean just 'are never seen speaking or meeting in the books' or 'never ever spoke or met'?

For example there are some characters that you can infer must have spoken together in the past (or would do so in the future) but don't have an on-page conversation. Would they count?

Still stumped!!!

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hmm Legate,

does 'never speak, never meet' mean just 'are never seen speaking or meeting in the books' or 'never ever spoke or met'?

For example there are some characters that you can infer must have spoken together in the past (or would do so in the future) but don't have an on-page conversation. Would they count?

Still stumped!!!

I was thinking the same thing...

I mean Boromir and Faramir REALLY fit well but they obviously met... but we never see them speak

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh no, no. Of course if it's clear that some characters have spoken to each other, like that Boromir-Faramir example, of course I would count it as if those two DID speak to each other. Use your common sense, there's no bluff in the riddle that would deny common logic. The two I have in mind really didn't, neither in the books nor any other time, only there is one subtle "but" in the "never speak". But that's just in case that everything else would fit and this one seemed a bit unfitting to you. But overall, no, Me and He never met and never spoke to each other.

[Mnemosyne]

I'm currently thinking something involving Aragorn, Arvedui, and Malbeth, but it works better if "we" equals "me" and "other" and I can't quite figure out how "she" would fit in (the very fact that there's a specific woman involved makes this a lot harder!).

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

OK then, I'll start eliminating my possiblities, probably wrong but...

Aragorn is 'I', Sauron is Withnail, no, sorry, 'He', The One Ring is 'Other', Arwen is 'She'

I'm just the second on His mind - Sauron is very interested in Aragorn
He thought of Other more than of me - but more preoccupied by the Ring

I'm just the second on His mind - especially after the Palantir-ing
Although for me He meant more than She - Tricksy - Sauron meant more than Arwen? Certainly a more immediate concern, but rather un-gallant, no?

Me and Him, so alike We - In a rather not-very-alike way, but I suppose both are great and effective leaders
Touch the same iron, touch the same stone - both touched Anduril, stone, hmm, possibly somewhere in Minas Morgul???

We never speak, We never meet - Yup, (Palantir doesn't count)
What tells you who We are? Our hands alone. - Both have distinctive hands - Sauron has but nine fingers, Aragorn has the hands of a healer.

Not sure I'm convincing myself here!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

But very right so, Rumil! Well done!

You have also correctly intepreted the particularities of the riddle.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Although for me He meant more than She - Tricksy - Sauron meant more than Arwen? Certainly a more immediate concern, but rather un-gallant, no?

Perhaps put in an un-gallant way but indeed, Sauron was Aragorn's deeper concern in the sense that he could have dropped his vocation and lived somewhere in peace in Rivendell, if he wanted, but he chose not to (I was thinking in the immediate context of Galadriel's "test of minds" and also Aragorn's half a century-long journeys in the Wilderness). Although, of course, even behind his conflict with the Enemy there was the background of doing this for the sake of Arwen, I am far from disvaluing Aragorn's motives.

Me and Him, so alike We - In a rather not-very-alike way, but I suppose both are great and effective leaders

Yes, well, this was mostly just an ouverture to the following statements, though I said it also because I think I recall somebody (Gandalf? Probably) said somewhere (like by the end of TT?) that these two are sort of alike (I don't recall the context properly, though. If anybody finds it, you can get two insubstantional points more ).

Touch the same iron, touch the same stone - both touched Anduril, stone, hmm, possibly somewhere in Minas Morgul???

The iron was indeed referring to the Sword that was Broken, as for the stone, what I actually had in mind was not the very same particular stone, but the Palantíri - which are of course technically made of the same stone, or kind of stone.

We never speak, We never meet - Yup, (Palantir doesn't count)

Exactly. Indeed that was the possible problem I was referring to, as I was afraid that people could just say "nah, they talked via Palantír", while in fact they didn't (you cannot really talk via Palantír).

And the distinctive hands, perfectly correct. I must actually say that it was the part of the riddle I myself liked the most, because it seems funny to me in some way. Not sure why, it's just wonderful to think of it like that.

Well, anyway! Your turn, Rumil, you definitely deserve it!

[Pitchwife]

Applause, applause - both to Legate for the riddle and Rumil for the solution! I had a hunch that Sauron might be one of the two (because of the nine fingers), but I'd never have guessed the rest. Very nice!

[Rumil]

Wow,

I didn't think I had that one right at all!

Great riddle Legate,

I was trying to fit all the people with same types of unusual hands - Sauron/Frodo, Beren/that one-armed elf, Hands of a King, ringbearers etc etc! Was fairly sure that Sauron should be in there somewhere as he doesn't get out much by the 3rd Age.

Stone - Palantiri in general, should have spotted that.

Hmm, well, I'd better put my thinking cap on for the next one.......

[Mnemosyne]

HOLY ILLAMATAR! Well done!

[Rumil]

Okay,

just a quick one as I didn't have anything in reserve. Shouldn't prove outrageously difficult (with apologies to The Prodigy...)


I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.
Torchbearer and light caster.

Ninth in line, renown is mine,
But student beats the master.

Guess on!

[Morsul the Dark]

Gandalf?

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.- Wielder of Fire plus seeing a balrog makes you angry

At gates of doom I saw too soon,- he saw the balrog first
The slaughter and disaster.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.- turned into gandalf the white from grey(Though the books describe his cloak as more blue
Torchbearer and light caster.- makes light with his staff

Ninth in line, renown is mine,- of course he was last to face the balrog
But student beats the master.- he was saruman's student and beats the witchking master of the wraiths?

EDIT: by the by talking via palantir is the reason I never put up Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

EDIT: by the by talking via palantir is the reason I never put up Sauron

See? That's exactly why I wrote about the possible problem there I know people might not be aware of it or forget it, but Palantíri could never be used to talk. You can only see through them. The "cool guys" might have used a sort of "telepathy" with that, but not real talking.

[Rumil]

Evening all,

hi Morsul,

sort of seems like Gandalf doesn't it, but no, not Gandalf I'm afraid,



Guess on!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm, well, maybe I could mention my original thought, then... I thought about Gwindor of Nargothrond, though I am not very sure how he would get together especially with the second half of the riddle, unless we got very, very metaphorical.

[Rumil]

Hi Legate,

nope, not Gwindor,

When you get the answer it will not need much in the way of metaphorical twisting !

Cheers,

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hopefully. By the way, I hope we are talking book characters here. From the beginning I cannot get rid of the image of that Olympic-Torch Carrier Orc in Helm's Deep from the TT movie

[Rumil]

What a foul calumny Legate!!!

Certainly not a PJ-ism, the answer will be found in the books for sure.



R

[Morsul the Dark]

Face-Palm!

This is probably wrong but who know who fits quite nicely? SAM

Samwise Gamgee

except the fire bit....

He saw the shire being destroyed in the mirror

He is "no minstrel" he claims but makes the troll song and the verse for Gandalf's fireworkds... also the light of galadriel.

And overall Sauron, Isildur, Deagel, Smeagal, Bilbo, Frodo, Bombadil, ? , Samwise

9th bearer?
Renowned as one of the heroes.

He becomes mayor(Master)?

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

as Cunning as a fox that's Research Fellow in Cunning at Oxford Brookes...


ie not quite cunning enough my friend!


The answer is not one of the major characters....

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmmm....

I wonder if Denethor counts as a major Character....

Fire Starter, obvious
Saw Disaster in the Palantir that's why he gave up (too soon)

Certainly a "carried the torch" help the place of leader?
(or literally carried a torch to the pyre)

Ninth steward
Wants the glory of Gondor

[Rumil]

Hi Morsul,

no no no, Ninth Steward! more like 26th!

Quite a lot more minor than Denethor.....

Probably the second half will help you to find the answer more than the first half, but then you should be able to go back and explain it all. In correct Legate-ite fashion.

Happy Riddling

[Mnemosyne]

Celebrimbor?

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter.

From the house of Feanor...

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster.

Was involved with the early wars of the First Age (certainly the Dagor Bragollach) but repudiated his father (Curufin) and uncle (Celegorm) when they were trying to manipulate the throne out from Finrod.

Also note that as soon as Sauron claimed the One Celebrimbor figured him out and realized they were doomed.

Gates of Doom could also refer (if they don't refer to Angband) to the gates of Moria, which were shut after Sauron was found out.

White from blue, no minstrel, true.
Torchbearer and light caster.

Kind of stumped on this one, though one theory does exist that Celebrimbor made the luminescent Elessar.

Also notice the preponderance of red, white, and blue imagery, which lines up with the gemstones of the Three Elven Rings.

Ninth in line, renown is mine,
But student beats the master.

Ninth in the House of Feanor (after Feanor himself and his seven sons).

Renowned for making the Rings of Power.

But his student, Sauron, ended up destroying him.



Not my best, especially since I do not have my Silm with me, but that last line fits so well that I think I've still got the answer even if my supporting arguments are kind of weak.

[Rumil]

Hi Mnem,

sorry, not Celebrimbor, though you did get one thing right.....



Rumil

[skip spence]

Tricksy again...

Hm. A Firestarter. Unless this is metaphorical, there aren't that many cases of fires I can think of. Minas Tirith was set on fire during the siege, and there's the pyre of Denethor. Smaug lit up Laketown and his daddy Glaurung burned a few places down I presume. Gandalf held the ring of fire and played with it occationally. The Orcs made a fire in Moria. Ghash! What else?

Then there's the gates of doom. I also thought of Gwindor and the gates of Angband here. The gates could also be the Morannon I suppose. I think the slaughter and disaster point to a first age event though, since this is we find most of the gore.

Angry too and a torch-bearer... Who in the name of Angband is angry? Tolkien's good guys aren't usually disposed to anger, are they? Feanor is angry and a metaphorical firestarter, and seems to fit some of the lines, but not all.

Ninth in line too eh? Not one of the fellowship surely, nor one of the Nazgul. Theoden was the ninth king of his line unless I'm mistaken, but he's not the one.

White from Blue... Mnemosyne mentioned the Elven Rings. There's also the White Mountains and the Blue Mountains. Gandalf once again is connected with those colours.

Bah! I give up for the time being.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Okay, actually, skip made me think of it!

What about Gloin???

I'm a firestarter, angry firestarter - he and his brother were the best in making fire, but also struggled during it

At gates of doom I saw too soon,
The slaughter and disaster. - not sure, could be anything, the gates of the Goblin-town, or perhaps most likely Erebor, or even in Moria if he was there? I don't have the patience to check now

White from blue, no minstrel, true - well, from Blue Mountains (that was what made me think) and, the Dwarves were all playing some instruments, though I think his instrument is not mentioned. He had white beard. And white cloak.
Torchbearer and light caster.- I guess this just refers to the fire again, or maybe something else... aaah, was he the one to accompany Bilbo inside the Mountain with the light? Might be!

Ninth in line, renown is mine,- he came as the ninth of all the Dwarves! You know, Balin, Dwalin... etc And of course he is the only one who appears in FotR.
But student beats the master.- Maybe that's referrence to his son, Gimli, who ultimately "beat" him in significance.

[Rumil]

Ahaaaa!


Legate got it. The answer is indeed Gloin.

Pretty good on the explanations but a couple of things to clear up.

Angry - as he fought with Oin when trying to light the fire in the rain.

White party hood, ninth to arrive at Bag End

No instrument mentioned for Gloin

Yep Gloin brought the torches for Bilbo

And of course Gimli's dad!!

Oh, the Gates of Doom etc- the Battle of Azanulbizar (or Nanduhirion if you prefer) where the dwarves beat Azog's orcs, but only at a terribly high price. Gloin fought there even though he was just 19 (very young for a dwarf).

All yours!!!

[skip spence]

Damn, you are good, Legate! Glad to be of some assistance but it was way over my head.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thank you, skip, well, it was the blue = Blue Mountains thing you said that really made me think of Dwarves, and then I thought "ninth in line" - well, there are not that many groups of people of which you could be ninth in line, are they? And "angry firestarter" made it clear then.

Anyway... so let's see about this.

Blind man and deaf man
standing at dusk.
Who of you tells me
what are their tasks?

First of them second.
Second's - third house.
Blindness and deafness,
forest and garth.

Rich man and poor man,
brink of the day.
Enemy and a son
not far away.

Enjoy

[Rumil]

Oho,

very cryptic Legate,

nothing comes to mind immediately, will have to do some serious pondering!

Cheers,

R