Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

About Boromir:

In post 801 and 805 Boromir reveals to us all that the wolves are trying to frame him and 821 he admits that it was indeed him who masterminded Aganzir’s death. What can one make of this, other than Boromir is confident that his actions are controlling the wolves actions.

I think there is a slight contradiction between the two statements, because if it was Boromir (and Phantom) who masterminded the kill of Aganzir. . . .then basically Boromir framed him self!

Then in 855 he says: “I wanted to kill the plot before one could even be started.”

If that was the case, then you failed. By going out and saying you where framed even before anybody has mentioned it, well, it makes people focus on it and it makes you seem wolf-like. It seems like you are a wolf nervous about the Aganzir kill that you and your mates have just completed and then start defending yourself against accusations you think will come.
The only problem with this theory is that it is Boromir in question and he is not the type that panics easily. . .

Then there is a very interesting duel going on between Boromir and Mormegil, in 933 Boromir say “Or I challenged you to defend your answer, and after you were called out for trying to say I was backstabbing tp, you skirted away. Well until now, that I have directly called you out on it.”

But when Mormegil later (954) writes:
“I will gladly vote for you if I am elected. As I've stated I think you are a wolf. This cock-sured attitude of yours. The way you buddied up. All of these ploys that you've set up and hide behind. You are brazen my friend and I've played with you enough to know not to ever trust you at your word. You are far too clever for that. Now that you are under scrutiny you turn tail (yes that was an intentional reference) and begin lashing out at your primary accuser.”
It is infact Boromir who is skirting away, not answering to the accusations. Is this because he feels that he has already answered them or because they are very true?


In post 974 Boromir says:
” Good point, it's really the one's who try to tip-toe around and keep the peace with everyone that you have to watch out for.

Those who call a spade a spade, and do not fear the repercussions are most likely innocent, they don't have anything to hide. The wolves do.”

And this is why you want to vote for me and Mormegil?
If you truly belive in this statement, then what was it that made you turn away from it?

Of course his new case against me does not help, apparently I walked into a trap. . . but why would anyone other than wolves lay traps for Ordos? Anyways apparently it is because wanted Mormegil to send him to the “dark abyss” and because I am so confident about his guilt.
Let me state it very clear, I am not overly confident, I have seen plenty of things that have made me doubt Boromir’s guilt, but bottom line is that he is my top suspect at the moment.


I think it has been shown that Boromir today have acted suspicious, the whole thing about him setting up Aganzir’s death and then claim he is being framed and then using his ploys to hide behind. The next big thing was the way he handled his battle with Morm, “calling him out”, accusing him of backing away and being very cocky saying he want Morm to be a Rep, only to back down him self and in defence attack his primary accuser (and now me). Apparently the quiet ones that try to stay friends with everybody is not so wolf like any more. . . .


---------------------------------------
I have left out some of the debate between Mormegil and Boromir, because the post would become too long and I would have made it more confusing.

I do have a few thoughts about Boromirs case against me so far, but it still needs a bit of working on and maybe I should just wait till he comes with a proper one.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune

In post 801 and 805 Boromir reveals to us all that the wolves are trying to frame him and 821 he admits that it was indeed him who masterminded Aganzir’s death. What can one make of this, other than Boromir is confident that his actions are controlling the wolves actions.

I think there is a slight contradiction between the two statements, because if it was Boromir (and Phantom) who masterminded the kill of Aganzir. . . .then basically Boromir framed him self!

Nope. We were trying to make the kill look attractive to the Wolves. Part of that attraction is the way that the kill might be used to set people up to be lynched. So there is nothing at all contradictory about it. Boro set up Agan, most likely aware at the time that part of what would make her attractive is the fact that her kill might be used to point back at him.

His error was this- he trusted most of the villagers to be able to resist the WW counter-attack.

As far as his "trap" which caught you, I'm not sure what to say. I can't recall if he fully explained the workings of it, and that would help me know what to think. But I'm sure he's aware of the possibility that traps misfire. I wonder if his surety that he has caught someone is in part false, for some reason or another.

But I have no more time- I must go to work. Be back later.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nope. We were trying to make the kill look attractive to the Wolves. Part of that attraction is the way that the kill might be used to set people up to be lynched. So there is nothing at all contradictory about it. Boro set up Agan, most likely aware at the time that part of what would make her attractive is the fact that her kill might be used to point back at him.

His error was this- he trusted most of the villagers to be able to resist the WW counter-attack.

It still makes his initial reaction seem odd, to run out and say "I am being framed". . . only to "seconds" later proclaim it was all part of the plan.
At the very least it was clumsy.

[Thinlómien]

I think I've solved the mystery of Boro and phantom - they must be lovers.

[Nerwen]

I think you've got it, Lommy.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I think I've solved the mystery of Boro and phantom - they must be lovers.

yes, but could you please focus on the game!?



EDIT: Sorry that was a really bad joke

[Boromir88]

You're not making sense right now Rune.

It still makes his initial reaction seem odd, to run out and say "I am being framed". . . only to "seconds" later proclaim it was all part of the plan.

Because of that statement you say I could be a wolf who was nervous about what Agan's death would lead to. How is it nerves?

I said before the night, Agan was an intense interrogator and investigator, and P.S.'ed that I just signed her death warrant. So why would I be nervous about what Agan's death would mean for me? How does any of my language speak to me being nervous...I thought I was giving a different impression; after all I said "I doubt the intelligent villagers would fall for such an obvious trick."

When tp asked what trick, I thought it would have been obvious that I am anything but nervous.

But see, here's what doesn't make sense about your post against me Rune, you bring up to contradictory points to raise suspicion against me. I'm not only nervous but I've been "cocky."

The next big thing was the way he handled his battle with Morm, “calling him out”, accusing him of backing away and being very cocky saying he want Morm to be a Rep.~Rune

That was my test for morm, to see if he really had the nerve, he did. So why would I vote for someone who is sure of my guilt, when I'm assured of my innocence?

Of course his new case against me does not help, apparently I walked into a trap. . . but why would anyone other than wolves lay traps for Ordos?

The truth is anyone who would ally themselves with morm's case so strongly to say "send me into the dark abyss," is someone I'm highly suspicious of. A lot of people seem to be looking with this at least with an objective eye, you and morm have not. Thus, my logic is since you two are assured of my guilt, and I know I'm innocent, you can't be innocent. It may be rather twisted logic, but I told you I'm done analyzing. The fact is, when I die, if you are indeed innocent you would not want to be allying yourself with morm. Well even if you're a wolf, it might be the wise choice to stab him in the back.

Boromir’s guilt, but bottom line is that he is my top suspect at the moment.

Like what?

Apparently the quiet ones that try to stay friends with everybody is not so wolf like any more. . . .

You know as well as I do this is a redundant statement. Because you know as well as I do we can't pigeon hole wolves into one single category.

The fact is I'm confident I have two wolves...are you sure you have one?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by tp

Now, all of this nonsense about questioning my Seer dream statements. To me, it seems as if you're asking, "You seem sure that you've been a dream already. Who is the Seer, Phantom?"

Ok, fine, well if that's why you think you've been dreamt of - alright. You may have an idea who's the seer and that s/he has dreamt of you. BUT: You cannot expect us to take your word of it and thus it's a very silly argument for your innocence. Period.

Originally Posted by the phantom

What I must ponder is this- are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?

So one cannot suspect you if s/he's not either a wolf or brainwashed by one?

Originally Posted by tp

So tonight, I do indeed hope to leave the village honorably via Wolf-kill.

I cannot see any reason why the wolves would like to kill you. So don't be silly...

Originally Posted by Boro

You'll love this one too Lommy, I'm actually in the process of another ploy right now, but if I told you right now, I'd have to kill you - or well make sure you wouldn't tell the world.

Ah, I guess I don't mind. After all, one could say I've started to work on a ploy of my own as well...

Originally Posted by Greenie

I don't like a situation where a few players can basically turn away every suspicion concerning their weird behaviour saying "Oh, that was a ploy, but of course you are too silly to understand advanced WW-playing. *sigh*"

Totally agreed.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Rune and Green have twice made morm a Rep.
morm has made Lommy a Rep.
Nerwen has made Lommy a Rep.
Lommy has made Nerwen and Shasta a Rep.
Shasta has made Nerwen and Lommy a Rep.

Any theories on what could possibly be going on with these individuals?

Obviously, morm, Nerwen, Shasta and I are wolves together.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well morm, I've often been able to read him as well, and I am not feeling a WW.

Haha, may I become the third member of "I have been good at reading Boro" club? My problem is only that I usually get very strong and accurate vibes pointing to one way or another, but this time, there are no vibes at all...

Lastly, I've been thinking... we shouldn't lynch tp or Boro toDay. However annoying they are. I suggest keeping an eye on them for they are acting mighty suspiciously, but I'd really rather keep them around for a while more (a Day or two) since there is nothing extremely serious against them and they will provide more and more evidence againt or for themselves as the game goes on. You may call me an elitist or a turncloak, I know - but I'd hate to lose players like them in vain. If they're innocent, they're a huge asset to the village.

That is, they would be a huge asset if they weren't such a distraction. I therefore suggest (or to phrase better, echo the earlier suggestions) that we should stop focuing on them like this. And that "we" means all of us, even the gentlemen themselves. We're assisting the wolves by this single-mindedness, especially if Boro and tp are innocent.

I'm a good example of this silliness - the only people I've really suspected toDay are these sirs. Does an attitude like that get us far? No. Even if these two are wolves, there are still be two more wolves to catch.

That being said, I'm hoping to have time to even skim read through this whole village, or at least toDay and yesterDay, and hopefully emerge with some points concerning some people and getting this discussion really rolling in other directions too...

I may throw in as a sort of gut-feeling that I think that Ilya is a wolf, after all. Possibly Nerwen and Rune too. Hmmm... who would I throw in as the last one? Ka?


edit: xed with Nerwen, funny Runne and Boro

[Boromir88]

Period.~Lommy

I love how I come up with all kinds of snazzy habits like that one, and a Legate 180, and certain people still want to lynch me?

And that "we" means all of us, even the gentlemen themselves. We're assisting the wolves by this single-mindedness, especially if Boro and tp are innocent.

Well said, couldn't agree more. So...

:: pssp :: I would ask you direct your attention to morm...he's been skating far too freely throughout this village so far. ::end hint::

[Thinlómien]

Okay, I've been trying to think about and recall stuff and reread Day1. Here's what I think.

seem innocent:
Shasta - his joking and tone sound too relaxed and genuine for a wolf
Greenie - I don't think she'd be that insistent and sharp as a wolf
sally - she really tends to be more serious and less all over the place when she has a special role
Kath - says genuine stuff, like for example, I doubt a wolf would just have made up that "ooh I just got a gut-feeling that Greenie and Eönwë are wolves"-stuff

no idea:
Rune, Nogrod, Gil, Gwath, morm, Brinn

seem suspicious:
Ka - has talked some, but not said much and I think she tends to talk more serious stuff when she's innocent and more nicely phrased nonsense when she's guilty
Ilya - just gives incredibly fishy vibes, also she's almost all the time sneakily going with the flow
Nerwen - I just don't like some of her points, they seem fabricated

I must go now, but I wish I will have time to skim through Day2 as weel. Also, I'd love to have a better look at at least oneor two of Nerwen, Ka and Ilya...


edit: xed with Boro - well, I simply think morm seems rather innocent. I'd love to have a better look at him, yes, but there are many other people I more urgently feel like having a better look at... we'll see what I have time to do.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nerwen - I just don't like some of her points, they seem fabricated.

And what points would those be?

Let me ask you something, Lommy: do you really have a "gut-feeling" about me, or are your nerves just tingling in response to young mormegil's insistence that I'm guilty?

Because it seems to me that this "Nerwen is suspicious" meme of the last two Days basically stems from morm's "case" against me. This being, as I recall, that since I made a mistake about the Ranger I must be a wolf pretending to have made a mistake... and since I defended myself (only lightly, by the way) I must be a wolf defending herself... etc. I'm still puzzled why so many people claimed to be struck by his points, which looked to me obviously fabricated.

[Boromir88]

As promised my morm stuff...

Day 1, part un. He comes comes out and advocates a plan, a structure to our proceedings. The phantom asks why must we have regulations, and morm stick to the fact that he likes plans.

This neither points to morm's innocent or guilt, it's the way I remember him. He likes plans, I've seen him propose some quite whacky ideas, so nothing suspicious, but nothing that would say to me morm's innocent either.

Like the phantom questioned, why set regulations to follow, we've always been more of a self-regulating body anyways. We don't like seeing too many lynch possibilities on day 1, we don't like seeing too few. Although, this was a bit of a different situation, because it was about representatives, so I would say the discussion was quite necessary, it was a new concept. A wolf-morm would benefit by appearing reasonable, sensible, getting some trust, just as an innocent morm would benefit from it.

I must say that while he is usually fairly verbose tp seems a bit peppier than normal, almost silly which has me slightly worried. I tend to trust him because he is fairly serious and he seems genuine about helping if cocky and arrogant, but I get a feeling of silliness that could indicate that he knows more than the rest of us, if you know what I mean.~morm

This post I don't like, because he's trying to accuse tp of being silly, thus he's a wolf. But notice the careful wording he uses...first morm says "I tend to trust the phantom, but you know his silliness is a little bothersome." The careful wording I don't like is his "if you know what I mean," it's like he's implying tp has a special role. What I don't like about it, is if tp was the seer, and morm was innocent, I don't know why he would clue in so early to any "special" behavior. But see, when someone says " he/she knows too much" the automatic assumption that is tied to it is "WOLF!" Anyway, why would an innocent morm set up tp as having a special role so early in the game?

Day 1, Part Deux.

morm seems a bit rushed the second part of the day, and very busy. There's no point there, just an overall statement. Day 1 was busy, busy, busy, and those who don't have a lot of time will of course be rushed and are crunched for time.

But I don't like his response to Nogrod's suspicion:

Nog seems to suspect me for talking about phantom...odd he repeats this of me a few times and suspects me for doing something similar.

I never like this defense, it's rather a weak cop out. All this defense is...Nog's accusing me of the same thing he's doing, irgo, if you think I'm a wolf you should be suspicious of yourself. I don't like it, because as I've said I'm a hypocrit, yes I'll suspect people for doing the same exact thing as me, because we're all different. It's a situational thing, different people react differently to the same situation. It's a cop out, and you're all going about how ploys are such a bad cop out.

His point on sally (post 408) also doesn't make sense:

These two parts caught my eye from Sally...I'm starting to read and will post as I go along. It is always odd when people apologize in advance, it as though they want to set it up that when questioned on something they can point it out that they have a reason for it.

I don't know how someone having a reason for something determines whether they're a wolf or not. It's an easy suspicion that can be generalized for anybody. I mean let's be honest, everyone has a reason for doing what they do? I may seem like a demented mad man, Mith would probably tell you that I am, but there's a method to it. Whether I'm a wolf or an innocent, I have a reason for acting the way I do. Having a "reason" for doing something alone doesn't make somebody a wolf or not. It's just a generalized suspicion that can be thrown at anybody, "sally's got a reason for doing something...that looks odd!"

He comments on Agan and Lommy's back-and-forth, and thinks both of them are innocent. Well, we know one is, the jury is still out on the other.

too be continued with Day 2.

Edit: crossed with Lommy and Nerwen

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You're not making sense right now Rune.


Because of that statement you say I could be a wolf who was nervous about what Agan's death would lead to. How is it nerves?

I said before the night, Agan was an intense interrogator and investigator, and P.S.'ed that I just signed her death warrant. So why would I be nervous about what Agan's death would mean for me? How does any of my language speak to me being nervous...I thought I was giving a different impression; after all I said "I doubt the intelligent villagers would fall for such an obvious trick."

When tp asked what trick, I thought it would have been obvious that I am anything but nervous.

But see, here's what doesn't make sense about your post against me Rune, you bring up to contradictory points to raise suspicion against me. I'm not only nervous but I've been "cocky."

The point about being nervous was aimed at the way you started the day, that should be clear. Your reaction to Aganzirs death did the exact oposite of what you apparently intended and as I said it seemed like a very strange way to tackle the situation.

Now about the cockiness, that has to do with the way you acted later together with The Phantom when questioned.

So there is no contradiction, you have behaved differently at different times during the day and I just happened to find some of you actions suspicous.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

That was my test for morm, to see if he really had the nerve, he did. So why would I vote for someone who is sure of my guilt, when I'm assured of my innocence?


The truth is anyone who would ally themselves with morm's case so strongly to say "send me into the dark abyss," is someone I'm highly suspicious of. A lot of people seem to be looking with this at least with an objective eye, you and morm have not. Thus, my logic is since you two are assured of my guilt, and I know I'm innocent, you can't be innocent. It may be rather twisted logic, but I told you I'm done analyzing. The fact is, when I die, if you are indeed innocent you would not want to be allying yourself with morm. Well even if you're a wolf, it might be the wise choice to stab him in the back.

Yet another test. . .fair enough I am going to buy it.

So if I had said to Morm "here you go Morm, send Boromir to the comfortable chair that awaits him" I would not be a suspect.

It seems very much like your are basing your theory on the fact that I spiced up the language a bit and that seems odd, considering your style of play.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You know as well as I do this is a redundant statement. Because you know as well as I do we can't pigeon hole wolves into one single category.

The fact is I'm confident I have two wolves...are you sure you have one?

Yes I know that you cannot put all into one category, but why point something like that out and then focus soly on people who do not fit it.

No I am not confident that I have a wolf and it is very unwise of you to think so!
As a villager all I can do is trying to track down the wolves and that is what I am doing, but I have been in this game long enough to know that there is a huge risk that you are wrong.

EDIT: Cross Posted With Everybody Since Lommy

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nope. We were trying to make the kill look attractive to the Wolves.

My problem here is how you say 'we'. How can you and Boro actually coordiante anything unless you are discussing things and the only ones who are able to discuss is the wolves.

I've only read up to this point now.

[mormegil]

That was my test for morm, to see if he really had the nerve, he did. So why would I vote for someone who is sure of my guilt, when I'm assured of my innocence?

See Boro, this is what I am talking about, other have mentioned it too. You devise these tests that end up making you look suspicious and when we feel you look that way you fall back to..."I was testing him...of course this isn't suspcious because you must believe that I'm innocent"

[A Little Green]

So I'm a rep? Interesting. Well, I'll do my best - the only problem is that I'll be off in less than half an hour and back a few hours later, sharing the computer with Lommy for the around two hours before going to sleep. Ah, the joy of living with a 'Downer...

I'm sorry to continue of the tp-Boro-topic, but I really have to protest to something these two gents have said. First of all, this:

Originally Posted by phantom

Thus far only those who are suspicious of Boro and I have gotten votes. What I must ponder is this- are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?

I don't like your reasoning that if someone suspects you that someone has to be a wolf or someone who has fallen into a Wolf plot... As if you weren't a player among all others.

Originally Posted by phantom

Originally Posted by Brin
And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me."
Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

So what you mean is that if you yourself know you are innocent then everyone else should automatically assume so too and not suspect you at all? I don't get this logic, honestly.

Originally Posted by Boro

When there is one seer, it is won by the seer alone. Period.

While I agree that the Seer is very important, I really have to question this. Don't you think the village has any importance at all?

Originally Posted by phantom

1) The attention I am getting is likely Wolf-driven, and you cannot defend against those who do not wish to be swayed.

Now this is going too far, honestly. You won't defend yourself because all who suspect you are wolves?

Sorry, but these two guys are really making me uneasy. I have to go pretty much now, but when I return I'll be looking at other issues as well.

Until then, bye.


EDIT: x-ed with Runey and two mormies

[Ilya]

Y'all, I think Lommy has a good point. Let's leave Boro and TP alone for the time being Rune, Morm and whoever else is still trying to pick at their argument. Even if they are wolves, there are two others out there, and I can't help but think that one of them jumped on The Alliance yesterday. I think their ploy, if it was to draw fire, worked - though morm brings up a good point in that I dunno how they would've been able to coordinate it without communicating. Hopefully after class, I'll be able to take stock of everyone reactions to Boro and tp, and post thoughts.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This post I don't like, because he's trying to accuse tp of being silly, thus he's a wolf. But notice the careful wording he uses...first morm says "I tend to trust the phantom, but you know his silliness is a little bothersome." The careful wording I don't like is his "if you know what I mean," it's like he's implying tp has a special role. What I don't like about it, is if tp was the seer, and morm was innocent, I don't know why he would clue in so early to any "special" behavior. But see, when someone says " he/she knows too much" the automatic assumption that is tied to it is "WOLF!" Anyway, why would an innocent morm set up tp as having a special role so early in the game?

You and phantom are fond of statistics so I would say that if there were a special role assigned to phantom it would likely, 80% chance, be a wolf.

If phantom was the seer I don't suspect he would be acting thusly. It is true, I find generally that I am one of the few that has an innate trust in tummy, while others do not, this was different. I got the vibe that he was a giddy wolf who was a bit over-confident on day one and was acting a bit silly because of it.

Also, if I was a wolf and I thought phantom to be the seer...why isn't he dead yet? I am much like tummy and I would go after the seer all out.

So if I understand you correctly, mind you this was one of my first posts and very early in the game, we are not suppose to point out odd behavior because it may be that the person is the seer...in that case let me shut up and retract everything I've pointed out about others because I would hate risking that the person is the seer. Instead I will point out normal behaviors.

Lommy seems fairly normal to me...ummmm that's all I have so far...boy that was fun...Really Boro? You seem rather desperate my friend.

[Boromir88]

Day 2, part un.

Boro officially seals the deal and Ilya makes a safe vote ensuring that no double lynchings would happen and makes her look good...right? I'm skeptical of votes like these. If I remember correctly and from what I gathered in my brief review of her posts she seemed to go with the flow. She didn't offer up any risky propositions or suspicions.

I also don't like this suspicion against Ilya. We know this is Ilya's first time gracing our presense in this village, but this just looks like an attempt to get an easy lynch. "Well Ilya's been following other people, she's not making any risky decisions." Ok, why would you expect her to? And why would you suspect her for this, when a reason you were suspecting Legate was...

Morm:
Okay I am just to this line and found it odd. It would seem to me that this is the first time Ilya has played, correct? If he/she (sorry I don't know which) were to be a wolf with Legate, there would be so
me aprehension and fear associated with such a role on the first time. It seems that Legate would be giving him a clue here that he's doing just fine and to keep it up. He said nothing similar to any other player. I have not suspect Ilya to this point but this raises my suspicions especially if Legate is one.

So, you suspect Legate for perhaps giving encourage to a newbie wolf...saying she's doing fine and keep it up. Then you come back the next day and suspect Ilya for not proposing anything risky? Who's the one playing safe here morm? What risky suspicions, and proposals have you made? (as far as up to this point).

The phantom seems to be setting himself up, on account that many Boro included, think him innocent, to the leadership position.

This I don't like, now for myself I admit to handing a lot of trust over to tp...but tp doesn't assume the leadership positon from anyone, he takes it himself, and he's still only been a representative once.

This is simply a safe move for a wolf-morm, tp is an easy person to attach onto. It's easy for someone to say "I don't trust the phantom," or "I don't trust this leadership role that he's taking..." and therefor it's very easy for someone to agree with..."Hey, ya that's true." But it's also a good strategy because a wolf would assume it's hard for a village to act on their insecurity with tp, it would take at least a couple days. So, here's a couple days where morm can attach and poke at an easy target, but a target that's difficult to lynch. If and when tp is lynched, and he is innocent, all a wolf's got to do is say, "Hey look I suspected him for a while, you can't deny that his behavior wasn't right." And the people will nod their head in approval...that's true it's hard to trust tp.

Then his stuff on Nerwen...it's just a pile up of cheap easy suspicions that can be applied to a lot of people (I'll number them )

(1) Anyway Nerwen on Day 1 didn't make any sort of impression on me, was overly quiet and reserved. (2) She didn't do or say anything controversial. And now that she feels that the phantom is a fairly well accepted innocent she seems to quickly (3) parrot what the phantom is saying.

Each one of these has no points to it...

1. She was overly quiet and reserved...ok and that makes her a wolf because?
2. She didn't do anything controversial...this is really just a repeat of number 1, but different words.
3. parrots the phantom...this in turn makes her suspicious because the phantom is becoming well accepted as innocent.

As far as Nerwen's remark about a ranger, ok a wolf might use the "ignorance" card. But let's think for a second what's the point of wolf-Nerwen doing it? First you accuse Nerwen of saying she's too quiet, thus you're implying she's slipping under the radar, but wouldn't such an obvious slip by a wolf-Nerwen completely go against that? Besides just looking at something and saying "ahh a wolf is trying to be ignorant to look innocent", you have to ask what the benefit would be.

Morm, you might not have liked Nerwen's response, but it was an accurate one. Now, I'm not sure whether a wolf Nerwen would use that type of trick or not, I don't because she's a crafty one. But I do know she doesn't have to act ignorant to make herself look innocent. Yes, I will bring up history to make a point, but it's an important one to make. When we were wolves together, I tried everything that I could throw at Nerwen to get her lynched, I couldn't do it and she didn't have to act ignorant to look innocent.

Votes Agan as rep, is clear that Nerwen is his top suspect, and he entertains the idea of giving her a second rep vote to see what she would do.

Day 2. Part Deux.

This seems awfully threatening my friend...

Looks like another little comment to prod suspicion towards the phantom (when tp said leave the Gil thing alone).

In 631 he reiterates his points against Nerwen. Again saying he thinks she was trying to play the ignorant card, and by the looks of it, it's working. Also, more easy suspicions to attach to anyone. She looks like she's trying to be too helpful this time...yada yada:

I am not at all satisfied with Nerwen today and still will likely vote for her. Her tactics today indicate to me somebody who is trying to be very involved and helpful, but when I see so many quotes it seems that she is just making long posts to show how 'helpful' she is being...I don't buy it. I still think she played the ignorance card to help her buy immunity today which is working in most minds.

In 709, he goes with his suspicions Nerwen. Which, could be taken as an innocent who is following his suspicions, or a wolf who's playing it safe as a representative.

Then that makes me want to question who is the one who's been playing safe? I don't question morm's reasonableness about the representatives, nor about the voting of reps, but I would ask because of that don't think he's innocent. Look at who really is playing safe here, and who really is throwing around easy, generalized accusations.

The time he stepped out and took on a confrontation was today when I asked for one.

Edit: crossed with everyone since my last post.

[Kath]

A Rep again eh? Alright well my computer is thankfully working again so that shouldn't cause any problems, though as per usual I will have to vote around 6 hours before the deadline.

I'm reading through (slowly - I've got a cold and it's giving me a very slow brain!) but I have two things to say right now.

Firstly - I want to keep Sally around if only for the Doctor Who references. It makes a lovely break from post after post after post of the same thing. And yes indeed phantom, whether it's Dr. or Doctor makes a very big differences, and if we're really getting nitpicky it should actually be Doctor Who? when mentioning the show.

Aaaanyway, secondly is thus rather unfortunate, because I actually disagree with Lommy on Sally. I don't think she is as flyaway and nutty as usual, in fact I think she's being downright sensible for her, and this worries me somewhat.

Hmm and I suppose I ought to mention the phantom/Boro thing. Maybe we should just lynch one of them - then they can't do any more buddying up and most of the annoyance in this village will be gone. It would be good for tension levels but probably bad for the village as I don't actually think either of them is a wolf. I mean basically, either neither of them are wolves or both are, I don't think it could be one of each. I wouldn't put it past them to play so boldly as wolves, but I think they would have to be very, very confident of the wolves they would leave behind.

[Boromir88]

See Boro, this is what I am talking about, other have mentioned it too. You devise these tests that end up making you look suspicious and when we feel you look that way you fall back to..."I was testing him...of course this isn't suspcious because you must believe that I'm innocent"~morm

But you should know as well as I do I don't go into a fight without ammo. I don't test for the sole purpose of simply throwing a test. There's a method to it all, I told you over the next 24 hours I was going to lay it out for you.

And since it's done now I am perfectly fine with telling the world - erm village. While I haven't said much about you, I've been quietly keeping tabs on you, I don't like it when people get an easy skate through. People get highly suspicious of me when everyone is inclined to think I'm innocent and reasonable, as they should, and I repay the favor when I think others are getting an easy slide through the days.

I told you I came prepared with the ammo, and I wasn't out after your reaction. It wasn't random, the act was to get other reactions. To see who would draw back support from you or who would jump to your defense. See you talk about tp and me being too buddy-buddy, thus we have to be two wolves, but you can see our trust had been built on previous days and past experiences. Yet, Rune was quick to jump to you're aid when I threw out a suggestion that he would back stab you. He was quick to vote for you as rep so you could send me into the dark abyss, after days of saying he was willing to trust me. And now I will get my ammo against Rune. That was the trap, sir, not to judge your reaction.

[mormegil]

Fine Boro be that as it may, what I am telling you is that you cannot expect others to believe you innocent just because you are setting these traps. You seem to take that for granted, tummy as well. You want everybody to jump on your bandwagon because of your plans and think that we all must acknowledge their brillance. What I hope you realize is, that at this point all it can be used for is your own benefit and those who may trust you. I think it is all well and good but I would tell you that if you are innocent you are only alienating the rest of us with these hidden traps that you allude to.

So if I understand you correctly you are thinking Rune is a wolf now because he seemed to back me up in my suspicions against you?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

I mean basically, either neither of them are wolves or both are, I don't think it could be one of each.

Why not? In fact, why couldn't each of these alliances (i.e Rune-morm and Boro-phantom) consist of a wolf and a duped ordo? Just a thought.

[mormegil]

What I don't get Boro is how you bring up this grand case against me and I demonstrated that it really doesn't hold water and then all the sudden you back off and focus on Rune...

[Boromir88]

Fine Boro be that as it may, what I am telling you is that you cannot expect others to believe you innocent just because you are setting these traps.~morm

It's not so much that I really expect it, because I've said to question me, that is something I do expect. But when I give an answer, leave it at that, if you agree so be it, if you don't same. There's no reason to start saying I'm being arrogant and brilliant, thus everyone else are simple and vulgar.

I know, you know, that I know I'm horribly wrong sometimes. That really doesn't bother me though, because I have no problem being the first to admit it was a bad move and I had it blown up in my face. Wasn't there one time when I doubted 100% doubted your hunter reveal, and you said I'd be eating a toaster or something like that? You were right, and I did eat a toaster just so you know.

But it's not an attempt to alienate anyone, it's my way of trying to spot wolves. If I'm right, great, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

So if I understand you correctly you are thinking Rune is a wolf now because he seemed to back me up in my suspicions against you?

Basically, although first let me say morm, I still don't trust you, so if this is an attempt to get my attention on Rune, I doubt it will work.

Anyway, the reason I was irrational and crazy in my suspicions of you yesterday was pretty much to get some reactions. I don't suspect you for the way you argued back, because truth is an innocent or a wolf would either react the same to baseless accusations or simply ignore it. My reasons against you were already made, but I didn't come out and present my reasons in a rational form because if I did, it would have been far to easy for a wolf to turn and support my reasons. However, if I came out abrasive, crazy, and like I was randomly lashing out, then I thought a wolf would either be quick to jump on and agree with me, or to defend you.

The way you reacted could be anybody, it doesn't tell me anything, but I think the way others react do. Rune was quick to jump to your defense and call for you to lynch me. And someone may ask well why would a wolf be that obvious in coming to one of their packmates defense? My reasoning against you yesterday was completely irrational, therefor maybe you both (or a wolf) assumed it would be easy to defend against my baseless accusations. That will come probably at around 4 or 5 when I can get back. That isn't all either, I have some other places of Rune, calling you a visionary and such.

But, like I said, the attempt to turn my attention to Rune isn't going to work. I still think you're a wolf, and my reasons against Rune are almost entirely based on my suspicions of you. So, unless you can convince me you're innocent and Rune is a wolf trying to attach onto your innocent reasons, well I'm probably going to vote for you, because my reasons are primarily based on your role.

[Boromir88]

What I don't get Boro is how you bring up this grand case against me and I demonstrated that it really doesn't hold water and then all the sudden you back off and focus on Rune...~morm

Read my recent post, I doubt you'll get the feeling that I'm backing off you.

Now I have to ask does this look like damage control morm? Are you trying to throw Rune under the bus because I'm correct (by trying to get my focus on him), but still wanting to point the finger at me at the same time?

[satansaloser2005]

Just checking in for a bit, and wanted to say....it still seems like too much of the discussion is centered around Boro and phantom. Even if they are wolves, there's other wolves out there too. I'd almost rather just ignore them and let them play with themselves for a while and see if they stop being so dern silly.




Re: Kath. Check my icon, love. (It was my duck's idea)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I am.

Seconded.

I love this game so much. In fact I better start making notes cos I'll never remember all the good bits at the end.

[Boromir88]

So there is no contradiction, you have behaved differently at different times during the day and I just happened to find some of you actions suspicous.~Rune

Fair enough, it was bad wording on my part. I meant just where are you seeing the nerves at the beginning? But indeed it wasn't a contradiction.

Anyway, I think lots of fellow villagers could tell you I feed off pressure...honestly I eat pressure for breakfast with my bowl of nails (no milk!) And at the risk of sounding arrogant here, I don't crack under pressure. So, to me it just looked like an attempt to throw more simple suspicions on me. First Boro is nervous about the Agan kill...but now here he's arrogant!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I better start making notes cos I'll never remember all the good bits at the end.

I know! I keep reading passages aloud to my room mates, who giggle helplessly because they know everybody's roles.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Read my recent post, I doubt you'll get the feeling that I'm backing off you.

Now I have to ask does this look like damage control morm? Are you trying to throw Rune under the bus because I'm correct (by trying to get my focus on him), but still wanting to point the finger at me at the same time?

What it means is that I found it odd that you were so vehemently against me and then all of the sudden you back off all nice and neat. It was odd and I felt it important to point it out.

Now what I still don't understand is that you admittedly lashed out against me as a 'test' and used innane and baseless accusations and yet you still suspect me, how about you give any real reason to suspect me?

Crossed with any from this post of Boro

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I know! I keep reading passages aloud to my room mates, who giggle helplessly because they know everybody's roles.

Oi! Spoilers....



Ahhhh, again more of the Boro/Morm/(bits of) phantom show. Aha, look! I've made a list!


People I'd like to see get lynched. ToDay. Mehbe.
Ilya
Nerwen
Morm or Boro or Phantom (preferably one of the former, as then we can get on with our lives. heh.)
Gwath (because we can )

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Rune

. . . but why would anyone other than wolves lay traps for Ordos?

An innocent trying to replace the roll of a hunter? I dunno. Obviously we don’t have one between us and the wolves, our seer being the only gifted, so it was only eventually until someone tried to lay traps when they could during the Day phase.

Originally Posted by Fea

who giggle helplessly because they know everybody's roles.

My friend has taken up the habit of reading over my shoulder from time to time and laughing. So far she thinks tp is just 'weird'. I told her to stop feeding his ego vicariously, it's not healthy.

~ Ka

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Oi! Spoilers....

Come now, do you really think I'd give things away? I pick my statements carefully, and I find 99.999999% of the world incapable of reading me even when I'm being lazy about covering my tracks.

[mormegil]

Okay so in my rummagings I found an odd piece of evidence that simply must be presented. It is not for the weak, so please be warned...




Source photo provided by Hookbill the Great...thank you for digging that photo up for me.

Ladies and gentlemen I think we have visual proof of Wolfmir's guilt.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Okay so in my rummagings I found an odd piece of evidence that simply must be presented. It is not for the weak, so please be warned...




Source photo provided by Hookbill the Great...thank you for digging that photo up for me.

Ladies and gentlemen I think we have visual proof of Wolfmir's guilt.

I am convinced! He must die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Heh and to Fea. Yes, I know, love, but that won't stop me from teasing you, especially in a Whovian manner.


Must dash. Work time.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath on tp and Boro

I wouldn't put it past them to play so boldly as wolves, but I think they would have to be very, very confident of the wolves they would leave behind.

I just got an irresistibly crazy idea only Fea would execute in her own game.

Okay so if Boro and tp are wolves, who would be their two mates and what the battle-plan?

Boro and tp know they are in the head of the seer's dreamtable so they need to do something quite spectacular so as to have a chance of avoiding the seer's consideration. It looks like an insurmountable task but these are both able and bold guys with a lot of intelligence. So what to do? Laying low or looking nice would not help, on the contrary that would be even more suspicious. So they get this grand idea of two strong innocents trusting each other from early on, making an infinite number of ploys and all the stuff, acting very confident as they go. And both declaring that the seer has dreamt of them already - giving an air of righteous pride of them being dreamt of so that the seer might trust them a bit more. It is obvious that the justice will be done after they die... And posing sometimes as seers as to avoid the real one to get picked (how unselfish that is, when you're yourself the one to decide on the kills... ) and on others as steering the wolf-vote to avoid the seer being targeted (and see, miracle happens: the wolves acted exactly like they predicted! So they had to be good! ) they try their best to keep the seer from not picking them but to trust them...

If Boro and tp are wolves something like that would be their only chance of avoiding the seer's eyes.

And who'd be their mates then? Looking at all of this, morm and Rune might be reasonable candidates. If the other "side" of the wolfpack had to pull that kind of a bluff - and were still in danger of being dreamt of - the other party should be very suspiciousof them, right? So if either "duo" prevailed in the beginning the other might carry it home as they would look clean and nice going after the other "pair" (see the mutual distrust between those "pairs" in this game).

And all those four would be from the pack of the "ancient werewolfers" who've been around from something like the very beginning like Fea has if my memory serves me right - and I would be surprised if Fea hadn't hand-picked the wolves...



Okay. That is a theory that would fit with the observed facts. A bit far-fetched you say? Well, maybe, but also too pretty not to speak it out aloud (and were it true I would blame myself later for not voicing it out as I started to see those connections).

It would indeed explain the behaviour of Boro and tp indeed.

But as I said already yesterday (RL), I'd leave Boro and tp for the seer as being innocents they would really be our greatest assets.

I'll dwell back to the thread and try to see if I can make any sense from the rest of the mess we're in...

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts... and pics!!! wow...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Nogrod, that is an amazing theory! I almost wish it was true. . .

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Nogrod, that is an amazing theory! I almost wish it was true. . .

In a way I would too as it would be simple from this moment on: just lynch you and / or morm first and then see if the seer has already gotten the rest confirmed...

But sadly the mates-part is not that simple - even if you oldies (you and morm) might fit the situation a bit too well. But so would Kath. And looking at who have been the antagonists of Boro and tp it might as well be Greenie or Lommy... *looks at the picture *

Or basically anyone...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In a way I would too as it would be simple from this moment on: just lynch you and / or morm first and then see if the seer has already gotten the rest confirmed...

But sadly the mates-part is not that simple - even if you oldies (you and morm) might fit the situation a bit too well. But so would Kath. And looking at who have been the antagonists of Boro and tp it might as well be Greenie or Lommy... *looks at the picture *

Or basically anyone...

I like it because it is a brilliant idea and it would make me a great werewolf player.