Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Orominuialwen]

Count me out for this game. I have to leave extremely early (6 am flight) tomorrow morning (actually, by this time it's this morning) and may or may not be back in time for the start of the game on Friday, so I think I'll just follow along while all of you play. Now I must get off the computer, seeing that I have to get up in four hours.

[mormegil]

Having played in several games I am for various roles. I think it adds some extra elements that make it very interesting. I was reticent to have the cobbler role introduced but I loved it. The Shirriff's I feel neutral about but I've always enjoyed the other roles, with the exception of the cursed villager which hasn't played too much of a role yet. I think the mythomaniac, introduced by mithalwen, was fun but needs to be used in a larger game. And finally I guess I don't fully understand this new role the werehamster or black beoring. I don't know what I don't understand to tell you

[Oddwen]

Should we have four Wolves, a Werehamster and a Cobbler?
Or three Wolves, a Werehamster, a Cobbler and a Cursed?

Gee, there's an awful lot of roles. Let's take the Seer out for this game.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Can I sign up for WWVIII? I haven't played in the past two games, due to being busy at the wrong times, so I'm really hoping I can join in this time!! *pitifil little-kid "please" look*

So if there's room for me, count me in!!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Should we have four Wolves, a Werehamster and a Cobbler?
Or three Wolves, a Werehamster, a Cobbler and a Cursed?

Gee, there's an awful lot of roles. Let's take the Seer out for this game.

How about 3 wolves a Werehamster, a cobbler and a mythomaniac

[Firefoot]

Right now I think there are 19 players. For the game to be "fair," gifted villagers should not outnumber the ordinary villagers.

So if we have:

3 wolves
1 werehamster
1 cursed
1 cobbler
2 shirriffs
1 seer
1 ranger
1 hunter
7 ordinary villagers

The number of ordinary villagers equals the number of gifteds (if you count the cursed). I could go for this set up. If anyone else drops out, though, I would consider removing one of the gifted roles (not sure which).

I am against having another wolf. Between the werehamster and the cobbler, I think having a cursed villager is plenty fine.

And something I'm wondering about: If the Werehamster attacks the Cursed Villager, what happens? Does he/she become another hamster and do the two hamsters then work together like the wolves?

This question of Menel's wasn't answered, and I've been wondering about it, too. I think that working together sort of goes against the concept of a werehamster; however, if there were two werehamsters, one would know who the other was (this would seem to have strategic implications), and it would be up to three kills per night. I think that if the werehamster attacks the cursed, the cursed should probably just die.

And if the werehamster dies when the seer dreams of them, does it still get its kill for the night? And, Oddwen, somehow you didn't finish your response to that question of why the hamster dies when the seer dreams of them; the sentence ends "I always supposed it was because".

[Mithalwen]

4 wolves would bake a complete bloodbath certain surely. REmember the Hamster will double teh number of night kills... and if the cursed turns wolf ..... My what long teeth you have grandma.......

[The Saucepan Man]

Those currently down to play (taking account of recent withdrawals) are as follows:

Azaelia of Willowbottom
Meneltarmacil
Nonnacedak
Durelin
Gurthang
Arcticstorm
Encaitare
Alcarillo
The Saucepan Man
SamwiseGamgee
Wilwarin538
Boromir88
CaptainofDespair
Firefoot
Mormegil
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant
Mithalwen
Laitaine
Gil-Galad

As Firefoot says, that's 19 players. On which basis, I agree with her that the following roles should work:

3 wolves
1 werehamster
1 cursed
1 cobbler
2 shirriffs
1 seer
1 ranger
1 hunter
7 ordinary villagers

Concerning the Werehamster (or Black Beorning):

Originally Posted by Oddwen

If only one Villager is left with the Hamster, the Hamster would trump. But since the game ends when all the Wolves are dead, if there's more than one Villager left with the Hamster, the Hamster would lose (die).

Is there any reason why the game should not continue if all the Wolves are dead but the Werehamster remains alive? It gives the Werehamster more of a chance of winning. Otherwise, the conditions required to bring about a Werehamster victory are very limited indeed. He or she will have to rely on getting the Village down to four people as the final NIGHT begins, make sure that he or she kills the Wolf and rely on the Wolf killing the innocent.

What if there are four people remaining as the final NIGHT begins, the remaining Wolf kills an innocent and the Werehamster kills the Wolf. Does the game end with a villager victory because all the Wolves are dead? That would seem rather unfair on the Werehamster. A similar issue arises if, at the beginning of the final DAY, there are three players left: one Wolf, the Werehamster and an innocent villager. If the Wolf is lynched, would the villagers or the Werehamster be victorious?

I like the idea of the game continuing with the Werehamster against just the remaining innocent villagers, but I certainly think that the Werehamster should win if the final Wolf dies leaving just the Werehamster and one innocent villager.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

And, Oddwen, somehow you didn't finish your response to that question of why the hamster dies when the seer dreams of them; the sentence ends "I always supposed it was because".

I still think that it's rather unfair if the Werehamster dies simply because the Seer chooses to dream of them. The Werehamster will have problems enough if the Seer simply knows who they are.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I think that working together sort of goes against the concept of a werehamster; however, if there were two werehamsters, one would know who the other was (this would seem to have strategic implications), and it would be up to three kills per night. I think that if the werehamster attacks the cursed, the cursed should probably just die.

That's probably the best solution. Although it might be fun if the Cursed villager were to become another Werehamster, working on their own. Although the original Werehamster would almost certainly kill the new one the next NIGHT, the new one would still have a chance to win if the original gets lynched before that can happen. In these circumstances, there would probably only be three kills for one NIGHT. Then again, maybe the original would want to keep the new one alive to profit from the three kills per NIGHT. So perhaps Firefoot's solution is best after all.

[littlemanpoet]

With two kills per night (minimum) as long as the black beorning survives, and one lynching per day, throw in a cobbler and a cursed villager, the werewolves have a statistical advantage.

Can the Black Beorning kill a werewolf during the night? If so, that evens things out a little. If not, I predict a werewolf win in a shatteringly quick game.

Consider:

Night 1: Oddwen dies

Day 1: one lynching: 18 villagers remain: 3 werewolves, 1 cobbler, 1 beorning, 13 innocents.

Night 2: two killings; statistical likelihood of it being two innocents:
------ 16 villagers remain: 3 werewolves, 1 cobbler, 1 beorning, and 11 innocents.

Day 2: one lynching: 15 villagers.

Night 3: two killings: 14 villagers remain: probably 3 werewolves, 1 cobbler, 1 beorning, and 8 innocents.

My numbers look to be off somewhere, but you get the picture. As the number of innocents goes down, the chance of a werewolf lynching increases, but the deaths happen too fast.

What's the solution to this? 1. Make darned sure the shirriffs get to announce themselves when they want to. 2. Can the black beorning or cobbler. My opinion.

[wilwarin538]

I really like the cobbler role, I wasn't sure of it at first but now I really like it.

The shirriff role would have been better if we could have revealed ourselves.

I'm not to sure about the werehamster/black beorning. I think we should drop that role, maybe replace it with the mytho, that sounded interesting to me.

[Alcarillo]

I agree with littlemanpoet that it seems as though the wolves would have a statistical advantage. If we drop a role, I think it should be the werehamster/black beorning. It's too complicated for me. The cobbler was a great addition to the games and I'd like to see it too.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

maybe replace it with the mytho, that sounded interesting to me.

Well, we might as well just add another seer. I think another ranger or hunter would be better.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by lmp

Can the Black Beorning kill a werewolf during the night?

As I understand it, yes.

Originally Posted by lmp

Make darned sure the shirriffs get to announce themselves when they want to.

Agreed.

And, on that basis, I do not think that the inclusion of a Werehamster will unbalance things. Remember that the Werehamster is playing for him/herself rather than on the Wolves' team and so had just as much reason to want the Wolves dead as the Villagers. Indeed, it's for that reason that I think that the game should continue if the Werehamster outlives all three Wolves.

And allowing the Shirriffs to announce themselves will help the villagers greatly, provided that they choose their moment carefully. This will give the village at least one DAY when there are two known innocents, and possibly a further DAY when there remains one known innocent.

Also, we will have 15 innocent villagers at the start of the game (although one will be cursed), which is a huge statistical advantage for the village. The original game, as I recall, had only 9 innocent villagers pitted againt 3 Wolves and that was by no means unbalanced in favour of the Wolves. Kuru won as the sole remaining Wolf, but only by playing skilfully and it was a very close run thing.

I like the idea of the Werehamster/Black Beorning, but I am content to go with the majority on this. If the role is excluded, then careful thought needs to be given to restricting the Shirriffs. On the other hand, if it is to be included, then, as I have said, we need to be very clear on how the role works, winning conditions etc, so as to avoid confusion.

With all due respect to Mithalwen, I'm not at all in favour of the Mythomaniac, as I feel that this role has too much potential to swing the game one way or the other, simply based on the choice of one villager.

[mormegil]

I'm of the opinion that the black beoring and cobbler together might be a little overkill in the wolves favor. I realize that the black beoring could kill a wolf but more than likely he will be aiding the wolves by killing innocents so to have one more person on the wolves team is undesireable.

[Firefoot]

I agree with SpM completely. I would like to see a werehamster, though the Shirriffs would be allowed to reveal themselves. And I don't really like the mythomaniac (I was a mytho); like SpM said, it can severely shift the advantage. The game in which I became the second seer was probably the least fun game I have ever played (nothing against Fea or any of the players!) because after the first Day it was basically devoid of possible ways to make mistakes and go with hunches (and I didn't like being a seer ).

I agree that the werehamster should not die if the Seer dreams of it, and I think it is a good idea that the game continue to go on if the werehamster lives but the wolves are dead. This would make it so that the werehamster would also want the wolves dead, and the balance would not be tipped so much towards the wolves.

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Menel & Ff

If the Werehamster attacks the Cursed Villager, what happens? Does he/she become another hamster and do the two hamsters then work together like the wolves?

The Cursed Villager can be cursed only by Werewolves, I'd think. There should only be one Hamster per game. (Wouldn't that be a pretty power struggle?)
Plus I don't want to write out three deaths per night.

The Mytho is a very powerful role if played right, maybe it would be more challenging in a game where there are fewer gifteds. Not in this game, certainly.

Originally Posted by Ff

Oddwen, somehow you didn't finish your response to that question of why the hamster dies when the seer dreams of them; the sentence ends "I always supposed it was because".

Erp, sorry...I was thinking about several different things and didn't end up finishing that one...so lynch me.
I guess I was thinking that the Werehamster is more of a psycho killer than some supernaturally altered beast, and that "deep magic" would kill it. Or something.

Originally Posted by Ff

I am against having another wolf. Between the werehamster and the cobbler, I think having a cursed villager is plenty fine.

Another Wolf would be too much. However, having the Wolves and the Hamster and the Cobbler and the Cursed seems to be a lot too. I wouldn't object to seeing either the Cobbler or the Cursed dropped.

Originally Posted by SpM

Is there any reason why the game should not continue if all the Wolves are dead but the Werehamster remains alive?

Well, the game isn't called "Werewolf" for nothing.
I have no objections either way, if the Players would like to hold a vote that'd be ok.


A small problem if the game is long - I'm going downstate early Saturday morning, Aug. 20. If it's a choice of having an extra early (or long) DAY/NIGHT, or having someone step in for me for that one day, which would you choose?

Originally Posted by Menel

Seeing as my original role wouldn't fit well with the village's setting high in the mountains, I've decided on a new one: Ye Olde Knighte.

Are you sure you want to change? I had such a plan for you.
As to roleplaying - if you would like to, go ahead.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

When is this game scheduled to start? I have just remembered that I will be gone this coming weekend, unfortunately without a computer. I don't want to miss out on another whole game due to this, but I don't want to cause inconvenience...or get lynched right away!...

[Laitaine]

I feel woefully ignorant and probably completely missed something along the way, but could someone explain to me the role of the cobbler, gifted villager and cursed villager? I don't have a clue, probably because I've only been on this forum for like a week :-D Thank ye.

[littlemanpoet]

cobbler Wants to die (get lynched) and roots for the werewolves.

cursed villager The cursed villager doesn't know s/he's cursed. If s/he is killed by the werewolves, s/he becomes another werewolf; if the cursed villager is lynched by the village, the cursed villager just dies and identity remains unknown until the end of the game.

gifted villagers There are different kinds:

seer chooses one other villager to dream about each night; hopes to snag a werewolf.

ranger chooses a villager to protect each night; hopes to protect fellow gifted, especially seer.

hunter chooses one villager to hunt each night; hopes to pick a werewolf so that if the werewolves pick the hunter, both hunter and werewolf die.

shirriffs know who each other is. They can PM each other during the day.

Werewolves can only PM each other at night.

Hope that brief summary helps. Did I leave anything out?

[SamwiseGamgee]

Thanks, lmp, that's a lot clearer. So I guess by your description of shirrifs the normal villagers are now expressly disallowed from pm-ing one another. In earlier games it was merely frowned upon.

[mormegil]

I would like to add something about the cobbler role. It doesn't do the role justice to simply say he wants to die. His/her goal is for the wolves to win so he will do whatever he/she can to aid that. If he needs to die to save a wolf he will. If she can vote for a double lynching of two who she suspects innocents she will. If the voting is close between a villager and somebody the cobbler expects is a wolf they won't kill the wolf. They will do anything they can to aid the wolves. Simply getting lynched the first day won't really help them that much. TORE played the role beautifully.

[SamwiseGamgee]

If the voting is close between a villager and somebody the cobbler expects is a wolf they will kill the wolf.

Do you mean they WON'T kill the wolf? Only that would make more sense in lieu of the rest of your post, mormegil. But your explanation makes a lot more sense, makes the cobbler a much more interesting role. Boy, I'm excited about this game!

[Firefoot]

So I guess by your description of shirrifs the normal villagers are now expressly disallowed from pm-ing one another. In earlier games it was merely frowned upon.

The only players who have ever been allowed to PM each other are Shirriffs and Wolves. PM'ing for anyone else (except to the mod) has never been allowed. Just thought I'd clear that up.

[the guy who be short]

Players may PM one another about non-game matters, can't they? Just to clear that up...

[Firefoot]

Players may PM one another about non-game matters, can't they? Just to clear that up...

Yes; my post does seem to imply otherwise, though.

[Shelob]

"A small problem if the game is long - I'm going downstate early Saturday morning, Aug. 20. If it's a choice of having an extra early (or long) DAY/NIGHT, or having someone step in for me for that one day, which would you choose?" ~Oddwen

I would be requesting a place in this game but the next few days are already all full so I won't really have time...however if the game lasts until the 20th and people want I will offer to Step in for Oddwen that day.

If it's needed...

[Encaitare]

So the Shirriffs will be allowed to reveal themselves?

Just a reminder for everyone to turn on the Invisible Mode (User CP --> Edit Options --> Use Invisible).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Another Wolf would be too much. However, having the Wolves and the Hamster and the Cobbler and the Cursed seems to be a lot too. I wouldn't object to seeing either the Cobbler or the Cursed dropped.

I think that it should be OK, given that the Villagers have 5 Gifteds on their side. Remember also that the Werewolves and the Werehamster may choose to kill the same person (particularly if they have a good idea who one of the Gifteds is), resulting in only one kill that night. Or they may both decide not to kill an obvious Gifted, thinking that the other "team" will accomplish the deed, saving that Gifted (the Seer, for example) from an otherwise inevitable death.

But if you do decide to get rid of one of those roles, then I would prefer to retain the Cobbler rather than the Cursed.

Originally Posted by Oddwen

I have no objections either way, if the Players would like to hold a vote that'd be ok.

I vote that the Werehamster survives Seer attacks and gets to play on if all the Werewolves are killed off.

Originally Posted by Shelob

...however if the game lasts until the 20th and people want I will offer to Step in for Oddwen that day.

Yes please.

[Firefoot]

I vote that the Werehamster survives Seer attacks and gets to play on if all the Werewolves are killed off.

That's my vote, too.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

That's my vote, too.

Add me to that list too.

[arcticstorm]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Add me to that list too.

add me as well to that vote

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by arcticstorm

add me as well to that vote

me to

[SamwiseGamgee]

And let me throw my hat in with that. I bet i'm killed by the werehamster the night the seer dreams of him/her!

[Gurthang]

I also want to see the game continue if only the Werehamster is left. It just seems he's got everyone against him anyway, so let him fight on.

Originally posted by Oddwen
A small problem if the game is long - I'm going downstate early Saturday morning, Aug. 20. If it's a choice of having an extra early (or long) DAY/NIGHT, or having someone step in for me for that one day, which would you choose?

Actually, I might be doing something that weekend, so an extra long DAY/NIGHT would work well for me. (I say might be doing something because I don't know for sure yet. )

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

So the Shirriffs will be allowed to reveal themselves?

).

Ooo er, missus

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I vote that the Werehamster survives Seer attacks and gets to play on if all the Werewolves are killed off.

That's my vote, too, though I'm not really a fan of this new character. After all, the name of the game is Werewolf, not Werecreatures... But who knows, it might turn out to be a fun addition to the roles.

[Lalaith]

*rushes in, out of breath*
Oddwen, am I too late to join in?

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

That's my vote, too, though I'm not really a fan of this new character. After all, the name of the game is Werewolf, not Werecreatures... But who knows, it might turn out to be a fun addition to the roles.

This really is my position too, but hey, I'll vote the same way everyone else is voting: Werehamster (please call it Black Beorning!) survives seer and continues playing if all werewolves are dead.

[Oddwen]

Okey-dokey, enrollment is closed. Because I was late closing the polls today, Lalaith yes I'll include you.

The game will continue if the Beorning (Werehamster) outlives the Wolves.

Gamers are as follows:

1. Alcarillo - Bartender
2. Arcticstorm - Philosopher
3. Azaela of Willowbottom - Baker
4. Boromir88 - Town Coroner
5. CaptainofDespair - Shrew Farmer
6. Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant
7. Durelin - Town Feline
8. Encaitare - Splenetic Lamenting Lover
9. Firefoot - Animal Artist
10. Gil-Galad - Garrisoned Soldier, tripling as Town Cryer & Gravekeeper
11. Gurthang - Annoying Animal Rights Activist (AARA)
12. Laitain - Minorly Annoying Minstrel
13. Lalaith - Soothsayer
14. Meneltarmacil - Ye Olde Knighte
15. Mithalwen - Blessed Cheesemaker
16. Mormegil - Alchemist
17. Nonnacedak - Ice Fisherman
18. SamwiseGamgee - Warg Historian
19. Saucepan Man, The - Burly Ex-Miner
20. Wilwarin538 - Butterfly Researcher

Roles are as follows:

3 Werewolves
2 Sherriffs (who may reveal themselves)
1 Black Beorning
1 Cobbler
1 Seer
1 Hunter
1 Ranger/Guardian
10 Ordinary Villagers

(No Cursed villager)

The first post will be set up tomorrow morning (Friday Aug. 12, 12:00 noon GMT). Roles will be PMed shortly thereafter. The official GAME will open 24 hours from then, on Saturday.

Meanwhile, if you would like to let me know what profession you'd like to take on in the village, please let me know. If not, I will assign you one.

And thank you Shelob! Shall I keep you informed during gameplay, or should I spring the information on you suddenly?

[Gil-Galad]

you would think that i would have something significant within the village...and i refuse to be the village idiot...

[Firefoot]

Well, I was about to say "photographer," but then I realized that there wouldn't be any cameras in this type of village...

So, in lieu of that I shall be an artist (mostly drawing); my favorite subjects are animals.