WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Inziladun]

It really is interesting looking at this from the other side, with the pressure to vote gone.
After all this toDay though, it's a shame I can't have more of an impact.
Mac I'd been suspecting for a while, but I wonder now if some of it wasn't due to the Force of Lommy. You may be right, Lommy, but honestly the fanaticism is a bit unnerving.
And Mith! Despite the fact that we apparently do have more cobblers than anything this game , I have to question her now. I simply don't buy that Gwath was the best she could come up with.
All down to Izzy now? This should be good!

[Macalaure]

What Shasta said.

You think we are both wolves, so which one of us dies shouldn't matter to you. If Lommy isn't a wolf, she's an ordo, if I'm not a wolf, I'm the ranger. That makes Lommy a better choice.

But regardless, if we're not both wolves, which scenario do you think is more likely: that only I'm a wolf, or that only she's a wolf. That's what you should consider.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

If Lommy isn't a wolf, she's an ordo, if I'm not a wolf, I'm the ranger. That makes Lommy a better choice.

[satansaloser2005]

I second Noggie's giggling. This is getting too interesting.


Popcorn, darling?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Popcorn, darling?

Thanks but no thanks... I really need to go to sleep now... But if you ask me tomorrow I'll say yes.

G'night!

[Boromir88]

You may have to defend yourself some more Mac, because I'm just going to go through your posts today, and look at what you said. Don't know what I will find, but just saying...

Kath seemed to make most sense (least nonsense?), but I had a very bad feeling.~774

Very bad? That's kind of a wierd statement...if you're the Ranger, what caused the "very bad" feeling about Kath's lynching? Maybe we are running out of time, but if you are the Ranger, you should not be worried about mistakingly lynching a giftedm and if you had any suspicion on her...why the "very bad" feeling?

My gut feeling says McCaber, Wilwa, and Kath are probably innocent~784

But didn't you vote for Kath and then retract? You had to be suspicious of her, why would that previous suspicion by voting for her suddenly make you believe today she is probably innocent?

Lommy's boldness today gives me a bad feeling about our numbers. This is the way wolves start to behave when they're one wrong lynch away from sweeping a village.~824

Hmm...not sure I agree, but this really isn't a point as to whether you are the Ranger or not. I'm just saying, that Lommy's aggressiveness after you is something I have never seen from her. So I have no idea whether she is innocent, or wolf...what I do know is she is more confident you are a wolf than I have ever seen. But why would that reveal anything about mutineer numbers?

Mith, please consider carefully - another vote for me would pretty much seal my fate, and we're very probably at most 2 wrong lynches away from defeat. If you're not sure - there are other options, and you can still lynch me tomorrow if you want to. What is your opinion of Eonwe, for example?~849

The 1st part looks pretty innocent...at least if you're the Ranger, because you're telling someone else to consider their vote or your fate is seal. But the second part...if we're at most 2 wrong lynches away, and you're the Ranger, what good would lynching you tomorrow do us?

I probably should just say, if anyone's up I probably cross-posted.

Edit: Oh and all quotes are from Mac

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Thanks but no thanks... I really need to go to sleep now... But if you ask me tomorrow I'll say yes.

G'night!

I believe for you it IS tomorrow. But I'll save you some anyway.

Sleep well!

[Macalaure]

Nog, please. I was putting myself into Izzy's position, and from that position it is "if". Don't be ridiculous.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

If Lommy isn't a wolf, she's an ordo,

Nice to know.

Anybody, if you have something to ask me, please go forth. I will do my best to help. I'm not raging mad - on the opposite, you can try to talk to me. I alredy said I can switch my vote to Shasta if really needs be.

I know my attack on Mac must have seen weird and over the top, but don't think it was random. I wouldn't have gone so far, I wouldn't be awake now if I didn't have a good reason to suspect him.


edit: mass-xed

[Thinlómien]

Mac you forget the possibility that someone would think you a cobbler. It's not like the only possibility is that you're a mutineer but you are evil for sure.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

Very bad? That's kind of a wierd statement...if you're the Ranger, what caused the "very bad" feeling about Kath's lynching? Maybe we are running out of time, but if you are the Ranger, you should not be worried about mistakingly lynching a giftedm and if you had any suspicion on her...why the "very bad" feeling?

That one had nothing to do with rangerness. Have you never been in the situation where voting someone would make logical sense, but it still doesn't feel right?

Originally Posted by Boro

But didn't you vote for Kath and then retract? You had to be suspicious of her, why would that previous suspicion by voting for her suddenly make you believe today she is probably innocent?

Probably bad conscience. I have actually flip-flopped on that again by now. She could maybe have been a wolf with Lommy.

Originally Posted by Boro

Hmm...not sure I agree, but this really isn't a point as to whether you are the Ranger or not. I'm just saying, that Lommy's aggressiveness after you is something I have never seen from her. So I have no idea whether she is innocent, or wolf...what I do know is she is more confident you are a wolf than I have ever seen. But why would that reveal anything about mutineer numbers?

If she's a wolf, which I have no doubt about, then her aggressiveness could come to bite her after my death. It only makes sense to pull it off if the village has no time to come and bite you. Therefore, the wolf numbers must be high - that together with possibly living cobblers would make this attack a very good tactic. The fact that the roles aren't revealed makes it even more so, a lot.

Originally Posted by Boro

But the second part...if we're at most 2 wrong lynches away, and you're the Ranger, what good would lynching you tomorrow do us?

Give me another day and another protection, of course.


crossed with Lommy

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Mac you forget the possibility that someone would think you a cobbler.

Maybe I forgot it because I'm not one?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Sidenote: I'm not going to bother defending myself against Lomwolf because she doesn't have one iota of a case. Sorry, darling.

[Thinlómien]

You really think I'd stay up more or less all night because of you if I was a mutineer? Like I said, I'm not that bad. Trust me I'd not be so picky, I'd go to sleep and not draw attention to myself like this. I'm not utterly stupid. A mutineer would be happy with a majority of the lynch choices. And I could have given up without losing my face, I could just have gone to sleep and told everybody they should lynch you meanwhile. I had the majority's trust. Do you think I would have started playing on it just to get a random innocent lynched? No, I'm not stupid.

Originally Posted by Mac

Maybe I forgot it because I'm not one?

That is quite probable. I was just pointing out there was a hole in your logic.


edit: xed with Shasta well I will have a case toMorrow if we lynch that wretched Mac now, I promise

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mac

I was putting myself into Izzy's position, and from that position it is "if". Don't be ridiculous.

Nope. I can see you doing it that way - and if you're an innocent it should be clear. But somehow the wording of it and the way you put it just made me raise my eyebrow... just listen to it once more...

Originally Posted by Mac Sparrow

If Lommy isn't a wolf, she's an ordo, if I'm not a wolf, I'm the ranger.

So simple. You tell others they have either an ordo / mutineer or a ranger / mutineer and therefore the others should not pick you? You can't be real thinking people would take it at the face value, really... But the way you put it... Hmm... made me laugh when I saw it first, now makes me wonder as you thought it important enough to comment on one smilie.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But the second part...if we're at most 2 wrong lynches away, and you're the Ranger, what good would lynching you tomorrow do us?

That might be read as a trial to make one more protection on the coming Night or / and to postpone one's fate for one Day to be able then to defend oneself better on the next... but I think you've hit into something here Boro - even if I still can't rid myself from the idea that you and Lommy are wolves together... a stronger feeling I have on Mac's guilt. But that's just a feeling at the moment. I'll try to explain more toMorrow.

But argumentwise you seem to be on to something here. There is a contradiction between the phases A and B; the urgency of the A ("another vote for me would pretty much seal my fate, and we're very probably at most 2 wrong lynches away from defeat") sending the message that I'm too important for you to lose so think again, and the "nevermind-attitude" of the B ("you can still lynch me tomorrow if you want to"). Add to that the fast turning of the subject - phase C ("What is your opinion of Eonwe, for example?") - and one has a pretty awkward post in front of one.

It's tough to be a ranger but this just doesn't look genuine.

Which brought me into the next question... why hasn't Mac asked that you do not vote for him because he's the ranger and thence - with the "revealment" - dead meat toMorrow anyway (or did he do it?).

I have no time to go back and see how did it go. But rest assured, if he said that he might be true, but if he did not, then lynch him, pronto. A real ranger would not miss that fact but a fake one might just not come to think about it..

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I was just pointing out there was a hole in your logic.

Not really. Since you could, in theory, be one, too, I merely ignored uninteresting cases.

[Thinlómien]

He didn't do it.

[Isabellkya]

If I'm just a probable Cobbler or Mutie to you; then my vote matters not.

A Mutineer is a Mutineer - no matter how you slice 'em up. (or what order they go in.)

You think you can pull the argument... lynch Lommy first and her death will PROVE your Rangership? Nut uh. Not possible. Unless she comes back for second deaths.


oh Shasta - I never said I believed Mac's claim as Ranger.


X'd with Nog, Mac, and Lommy.
Edit 2. An S went AWOL.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Not really. Since you could, in theory, be one, too, I merely ignored uninteresting cases.

In theory I could be anything. Anything except the hunter.

edit: xed with Izzy

[Macalaure]

Who's still left?

Eonwe and Mith will not come back, and I don't expect Gwath to show up (not to mention that I wouldn't expect him to vote against his fellow). Apart from Gwath, the only outstanding vote is mine. Without retractions, we have: Mac 5, Lommy 2. I need two retractions out of you three, Boro, Nerwen, and Izzy. Pretty please?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mac

I merely ignored uninteresting cases.

So who's the populist here?

edit: xed with Mac

[Isabellkya]

If Nerwen returns, she probably will. So she can keep on trying to look innocent. xD

[Boromir88]

That one had nothing to do with rangerness. Have you never been in the situation where voting someone would make logical sense, but it still doesn't feel right?~Mac

Yes, but you just said if Lommy's not a wolf, we will only be losing an innocent. And if you really are the Ranger, why the fear in lynching Kath? That's what I'm trying to point out, as an ordo I always fear mistakingly lynching a gifted, but as one of the gifteds I always feel more confident and aggressive in my voting, as I know I'm one of the gifteds. I'm just saying it looks like you were trying to strike up fear in lynching Kath, but if you're really the Ranger you should not be fearing the lynch would go "very bad."

If she's a wolf, which I have no doubt about, then her aggressiveness could come to bite her after my death. It only makes sense to pull it off if the village has no time to come and bite you. Therefore, the wolf numbers must be high - that together with possibly living cobblers would make this attack a very good tactic. The fact that the roles aren't revealed makes it even more so, a lot.

Or we're not doing bad afterall and desperation is setting in? I'm waiting for Lommy's response to my question earlier, until I answer that more fully. Plus Gwath's mod-fire might play into the wolf strategy, if he is one...hmm

Give me another day and another protection, of course.

Ahh got it...I was thinking if you really believe we don't have many days left, and we miss-lynch today, what's the point in giving you another day and lynching you tomorrow? You must be pretty confident than you won't be night killed?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Izzy

If I'm just a probable Cobbler or Mutie to you; then my vote matters not.

Your vote counts as 1, like everybody else's. I don't care about your possible role right now.

Originally Posted by Izzy

You think you can pull the argument... lynch Lommy first and her death will PROVE your Rangership?

Never claimed that it will prove anything. Just claimed that, from your point of view, it's logical to proceed in this order.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

If Nerwen returns, she probably will. So she can keep on trying to look innocent. xD

Well, she won't look innocent in my books after that. Or I don't know who'd think her more innocent because of that. Mac is threatened to the corner and he made the only bluff that has a chance of saving his life and if someone believes it I say everything's not quite right with their common sense.

edit: xed with Boro and Mac

[Isabellkya]

But the fact is, I'm the only one here in Izzy's point of view.
Soo.. xD

You are a mutineer Lommy.
Common Sense is relative.

[Thinlómien]

Boro - you asked me a question? I must've missed it and didn't find upon skimming your recent posts for it.

edit: xed with Izzy - I've already explained why it doesn't make any sense at all that I'm a mutineer and I won't parrot myself anymore... just as long as you vote Mac I'm happy

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

got it...I was thinking if you really believe we don't have many days left, and we miss-lynch today, what's the point in giving you another day and lynching you tomorrow? You must be pretty confident than you won't be night killed?

That's a good point. No self-saves from the Ranger this game. Nothing would
save the real one ToNight.

[Thinlómien]

Lo, Mac is able to"talk himself into the bag" (like you'd say in Finnish) even without my help.

[Isabellkya]

--Mac

Perhaps toMorrow then.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

That's what I'm trying to point out, as an ordo I always fear mistakingly lynching a gifted, but as one of the gifteds I always feel more confident and aggressive in my voting, as I know I'm one of the gifteds. I'm just saying it looks like you were trying to strike up fear in lynching Kath, but if you're really the Ranger you should not be fearing the lynch would go "very bad."

The chances of lynching a gifted are not really that much better when you're gifted yourself. Unless my gift gives me extra knowledge, I'm not more confident in my choices.

We might have a different idea of "very bad". I didn't mean it in a lynch-gifted kind of way, it just expressed my feelings at the time.

Originally Posted by Boro

Plus Gwath's mod-fire might play into the wolf strategy, if he is one...hmm

Hmmmm! I didn't think about that at all! If Gwath is indeed a wolf, then the wolves are in dire risk of losing one of their own. That means either that the wolves aren't doing that well after all, or that Gwath is innocent, in which case the wolves have even more reason to be optimistic.

crossed with everyone since my last.

[Boromir88]

Lommy.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This Lommy crusade is getting really scary...I've never seen it before, and really Lommy what are you trying to prove from going all out Mac? If he's a wolf you'll get full credit.

Basically I've never seen this kind of play from you before, so I can't tell whether you're an innocent or wolf...and want to know why you're changing up your game significantly?

[Thinlómien]

Izzy you freaking cobbler! I think Boro just brought a point that more or less proves Mac can't be the real ranger and you retract. Holy cow. If I was you and I was innocent I'd vote him again pretty quickly.

edit: xed with Mac and Boro

[Nogrod]

You people still around (except Mac an Lommy): check whether what Lommy says is true or not.

A ranger knows that when he reveals he will be dead the next Night as there will be no one to protect him and there probably aren't any "good-cobblers" - whatever they might be - to pull that kind of trick to protect someone they think is the real ranger...

If Mac is the ranger he would have used that claim: "don't lynch me as it would be an innocent life wasted as I'm dead anyway the coming Night now that I was forced to reveal myself" or whatever. Like: "try to get a baddie for your lynch and not me". And the next Day would prove him right if he was one - and even if the mutineers toyed with him and did not kill him during the Night he could save someone on the coming Night and the lynch toDay would be one without the ranger at stake.

But if he didn't make that point as Lommy says but tried to defend himself other ways, then I'd say lynch him for good. You'll get a mutineer there. A mutineer pretending to be the ranger might forget these things...

EDIT: X'd with a hundred posts... it looks like we're near the end as the posting is this feverish! THe mutineers are online en masse...

[Isabellkya]

What point would that be?

X'd with Nog.

[Inziladun]

There was this.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Why doesn't this surprise me? Maybe, just maybe, I didn't reveal earlier because a revealed ranger is a dead ranger?

[Isabellkya]

Why would he use that claim Nog?
Is it not obvious in any game where a non-self protecting Ranger reveals?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Lommy.
Basically I've never seen this kind of play from you before, so I can't tell whether you're an innocent or wolf...and want to know why you're changing up your game significantly?

It wasn't a conscious decision. I just decided to stick to a decision for once. It may be even partly the fault of your psychologising but I decided I have to trust my judgement (well, and Rikae's) and I must have him dead before he kills us all. I confess I've acted more confident than I've been at times, but that ranger claim really was the last nail to Mac's coffin. Others have proven it's inconsistent, I will only say I was expecting it all along, I'd knew he'd try it so when he did I knew I had been right all along.


edit: xed with the three i's

[Boromir88]

You know what's funny Inziladun, when I was on you about contesting Rikae's claim, that is what I told you, didn't I?

Sorry Nogrod, I'm not going to look at anything you say about this, because I still aint trusting you.

We might have a different idea of "very bad". I didn't mean it in a lynch-gifted kind of way, it just expressed my feelings at the time.~Mac

Possibly, and I will say I'm not even looking at what Lommy will be saying about you the last hr and a half, or whatever, because it will be so one-sided it won't tell me anything.

[Thinlómien]

It's 6am so my brain is a little porrdigy, I just realised I phrased that rather self-contradictingly. I just mean I never thought "ha, I'll be aggressive this time" but rather as the game went on I was like "I'm not stopping suspecting Mac just because others don't suspect him".

edit: xed with Boro - Nog has a point there, he's merely saying that a real ranger would have told us not to lynch him because he'll die anyway and he asked if Mac has done this and he hasn't