Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Wait. The end of today or toDay? I think I misunderstood your post.


Heh and that's why I was considering not voting you. Don't know about where you're at, but it's cold here and I'd feel bad if you did have to do that. Not that I don't think you'd be willing to do it, I'd just feel rather sorry for you. Hehe.

When it comes time for the reps to vote and if I'm a rep I will make sure I have access. I think I will have access where I am staying but I'm not sure. Either way it won't be too bad.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by morm

Greenie, I understand your reservations, however if I am voted as a rep, I'm willing, if needs be to take my laptop and sit in my car in the driveway while I use my wireless network if necessary. I wouldn't mind being a rep and I believe I will have access but I wanted to make sure everybody is aware that at the end of this DAY it may be a bit more difficult.

Where is Kath and Ka today???

The bit about Kath and Ka I totally agree with. Where are those lovely ladies toDay? Or our friend Gwathagor? I miss them.

As for the first part, I'm glad to hear that you'll be able to participate. I might vote you for rep toDay, because of the choices I had you are the one I have heard others considering for reps as well. Back with my rep vote soon...


EDIT: x-ed with 2x phantom & 1x morm

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Really? Even if you thought I was maybe the Seer? That sounds like suicide to me.

And why would I think you are the seer? I'm really enjoying this debate, you know. I hate to leave, but it's getting late and I'll have to let Lommy post as well... How stupid.

I'll vote

++morm for rep

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And even if you'd want to keep me alive despite that, I doubt your packmates would agree with you.

Good that you reminded me of that tp.

I mean there has been a host of arguments going around like "X would not kill Y" or "Z would kill W" so "they are wolves" / "must be innocents". Now even if the wolves may stab each other in the back during the Days, during the Nights it's normally a teamwork and quite democratic indeed - at least to my experience of both being a wolf a host of times and reading wolf-PM's some have provided other players in the after-game discussions.

So I would take every such claim with a pinch of salt indeed.

[Kath]

Hello! Well I am here at last. I attempted to get on earlier and I have no idea why I couldn't. My Facebook was working, my hotmail was working, it just wouldn't link me through to here for some reason. Anyway, it's working now so. I shall have a look at what's been going on toDay and try to get back with some thoughts but I do have one immediate question ... why is phantom now called tummy?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Kath

I do have one immediate question ... why is phantom now called tummy?

I can field that one. I gladly take credit for it. Earlier when I was commenting on his silliness I called him phantummy and then it went to tummy for short. I think we should all have a nickname, I'm just glad I have morm.

[Thinlómien]

++Shasta for rep

I think he's probably innocent and I want to know what he'll do with the power... but if he gives a mere spite-vote to tp I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

[the phantom]

Nog- does my view of the chess match make sense to you?

Green- did I answer your questions?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean there has been a host of arguments going around like "X would not kill Y" or "Z would kill W" so "they are wolves" / "must be innocents". Now even if the wolves may stab each other in the back during the Days, during the Nights it's normally a teamwork and quite democratic indeed - at least to my experience of both being a wolf a host of times and reading wolf-PM's some have provided other players in the after-game discussions.

So I would take every such claim with a pinch of salt indeed.

I agree to some extent, but you also must keep in mind individual personalities when deciding how much salt to use.

For instance, when I've been a Werewolf, I've always been the one who PMs the kill to the Mod as far as I can remember. And I would not be above being undemocratic if my partners were being unreasonable.

For instance, if someone was ringing Seer bells and the rest of my pack wanted to kill somebody else merely to cause some sort of flimsy set up that may or may not work, I would PM them and tell them that hitting the Seer was the priority.

If they actually disagreed with that statement, then I'd disown them, and could very well just pretend to go along with them and then send my own pick to the Mod.

[Boromir88]

Hmm. I was thinking about tp or Nogrod as a rep. But, I may follow Lommy's suit and go with Shasta. Shasta, I like your combative style so far against suspicions, that's a good sign, but I wish I could see more of your own suspicions. I may be missing them.

Right now, morm's making me uneasy. You avoided the confrontation too easily. What I remember of you morm is you're not only sensible, but a strong player, in the sense that you don't back away easily. I liked your points against Nerwen yesterday, but today you started efforts against tp and myself, which doesn't mean you're a wolf, but you shied away from that confrontation too easily. When I challenged you as to why I suddenly leapfrogged tp in your suspicions, you put on the brakes again. It looks like you're making sense by continually making points on your suspects, but when challenged, you don't want to go through with it, you don't pursue your suspicions any further.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

++Shasta for rep

I think he's probably innocent and I want to know what he'll do with the power... but if he gives a mere spite-vote to tp I'm going to be seriously disappointed.

Yeah, right. Because no one would guess that would happen.

What it looks like to me- you're hoping he'll do just that, but saying what you did in an attempt to distance yourself from him when he does what you are betting he'll do.

[Nogrod]

We have 16 people in this village, 4 of them wolves.


Of these we have the quiet departement:

Gil-Galad whom I think is innocent but may not return to the game. Let's hope he does.

The Ka looks like the über-submarine. I might support her lynch toDay unless some real pressing RL reasons come to the surface.

Kath I'm very unsure of as she seems to trust me somewhat (at least the last time she was around of which some time has really gone) and I find it slightly suspicious. Maybe I should just start to learn to be a bit more grown-up and stop suspecting her everytime (I quess this is the second time I'm saying this; now what does it tell? ). But she really should post more. I'm not inclined to suggest her lynching anyway, at this point at least.

Gwath I'd just like to see more. I have no clear picture of him. Sometimes I think not even a picture... where are you?

Also Brinn has been relatively quiet toDay. But so far I have no idea. She looks reasonable but that's what she always does. And that really bothers me right now.



Then there are Rune, Sally, Shasta, Greenie and Ilya who are all falllng into my category "I really should pay more attention to them as they do actually post". Somehow my mind has been in other places (thanks Boro & tp ). I'll promise to look at at least some of them tomorrow (the rep-day that is).


The people I have a "better" vision (meaning I think I have something) on remain.

Lommy looks and feels genuine, from her defence from Agan's attack to her frustration with Boro and tp toDay.

morm seems to enjoy a lot of trust in here. He looks almost botheringly innocent. But I must agree that he hasn't looked suspicious this far. I'd trust him but wouldn't make him a super-delegate anyway which he looks like be becoming if all those intending to vote him do that...

Nerwen is either a wolf or a victim of a nasty plot made by wolves. Her defences can be interpreted both ways. I have no clear feeling on her but if I'd had to be the one to vote the lynch at this moment I would probably try her (or then The Ka, just to be sure).


Boromir88 & the phantom then... Well, they could be anything, really. Two wolves, one wolf & one innocent, two innocents...

Somehow I'm thinking we should leave them for the seer - if they promise to not draw all the discussion on themselves from now on...

I mean I see now I have used a lot of my time toDay looking at things relating to them. Some of them give me the creeps, some of them assure me of their innocence. But with 12 innocents against 4 wolves the ratio is quite good and we probably should not take rushed decisions with them.

But we shouldn't talk about them every Day and all the time either. At least I see I have failed in that toDay in a monstrous fashion.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Right now, morm's making me uneasy. You avoided the confrontation too easily. What I remember of you morm is you're not only sensible, but a strong player, in the sense that you don't back away easily. I liked your points against Nerwen yesterday, but today you started efforts against tp and myself, which doesn't mean you're a wolf, but you shied away from that confrontation too easily. When I challenged you as to why I suddenly leapfrogged tp in your suspicions, you put on the brakes again. It looks like you're making sense by continually making points on your suspects, but when challenged, you don't want to go through with it, you don't pursue your suspicions any further.

I'm sorry Boro I don't follow you here? I haven't backed down against you, I simply voted for my rep and got busy with other things. As to why you leaped frogged phantom on my list I would say you leap frogged a whole host of people on my list, including my previous top suspect, Nerwen. I still suspect others that I've mentioned, namely Nerwen, Nogrod, Ilya and phantom. I have no other explination than you stand out as the most likely of the 5 to be a wolf. If I were to pick between you and phantom, assuming only 1 is a wolf, you seem to be the one who would be the wolf and using the phantom relationship to your advantage.

[Boromir88]

If I were to pick between you and phantom, assuming only 1 is a wolf, you seem to be the one who would be the wolf and using the phantom relationship to your advantage.~morm

Or I challenged you to defend your answer, and after you were called out for trying to say I was backstabbing tp, you skirted away. Well until now, that I have directly called you out on it.

But, now I must do the skirting away as I'll be back in a couple hours.

[Kath]

And Nog is telling me to post more ... all is right with the world.

But all is not right with my internet. I'm really loathe to do this but I think I'm going to have to simply vote for a Rep, shut the computer and internet down for the night and hope it sorts itself out for tomorrow because it's currently taking between 5 and 10 minutes to load a page and that's when it doesn't time itself out.

++NOG for Rep

Yes, yes, faint in shock at the thought of my trusting the ever-suspicious Nogbod, but I have actually come to terms with the fact that I think he's innocent. There are a few others I might have voted for. phantom is one (loving the tummy thing btw morm, it makes me laugh every time I see it!), Lommy is another. But toDay I'm going with Nog, I think it's good for me to get over this 'it's Nog! He must be evil' thing and this is as good a way as any.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Or I challenged you to defend your answer, and after you were called out for trying to say I was backstabbing tp, you skirted away. Well until now, that I have directly called you out on it.

But, now I must do the skirting away as I'll be back in a couple hours.

I'm sorry Boro but you are not making any sense to me on this. It seems fairly knee-jerk and grasping at straws all at once.

[Brinniel]

tp and Boro really are bothering me. And it's not just the buddying up business....I agree this ploy thing is getting annoying. It's like saying, "Look what I did, I'm so helpful to the village. I'm an absolute genius compared to the rest of you who didn't even attempt any ploys." And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me." It's such arrogant behaviour. And if they really were innocent, why even mention that they successfully set up a ploy? What's done is done and I don't see a reason why anyone else should know about the ploy, especially if you intend to trap the wolves again.

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves. I'm not so sure that both of them are wolves (though it's something they could certainly pull off), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if one them is a baddie.

EDIT: X-ed since #932

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Gwath I'd just like to see more. I have no clear picture of him. Sometimes I think not even a picture... where are you?

Directing a play i.e. super busy!

[the phantom]

The Rep votes thus far-

morm for Lommy
Green for morm
Lommy for Shasta

Thus far only those who are suspicious of Boro and I have gotten votes. What I must ponder is this- are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?

Just to help everyone order their thoughts, here are the facts.

Boro and I are displaying trust for each other and are attempting to work together. This is where all of the suspicion stems from.

Fact: We are both likely to be correct given the simple odds to begin this village.

Fact: We are extremely familiar with each other, and I at least have shown a great ability to read him in the past, pegging him quite often on Day 1 as Ordo or Wolf.

Fact: The ploys that we were doing can be seen quite clearly in hindsight and their workings explained logically.

Given the facts of the situation, it hardly seems logical that the village would swing against us. In addition please consider this VERY IMPORTANT POINT which I've been just itching to bring up-

What is the number one reason for someone to trust someone else?

Answer- you are the Seer and have dreamed that person an Ordo.

Then why is the common logic being spread about that this trust means that there must be something devilish going on? Beware! You are being lead astray by this thinking!

You would think that if someone truly had the best intentions of the village in mind, the first thing that would come to mind with Boro and I would be, "Crap! One of them is the Seer and they've dreamed about the other one. The Wolves are going to spot that and take them out!" How is it that this basic thought proccess has been completely swept under the rug?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Given the facts of the situation, it hardly seems logical that the village would swing against us. In addition please consider this VERY IMPORTANT POINT which I've been just itching to bring up-

What is the number one reason for someone to trust someone else?

Answer- you are the Seer and have dreamed that person an Ordo.

The other situation in which it is possible to have complete certainty regarding another player's role is if you are both wolves. I am not arguing that this is the case with you and Boro, but it is just as likely a possibility as one of you being a Seer. In that situation, only one can trust the other, and not vice-versa.

[Brinniel]

Just a real quick summary of my thoughts:

Suspicious
Boromir88
the phantom

Semi-Suspicious
Nerwen
Nogrod

No Clue
Ilya
Rune
Greenie
Gwathagor
mormegil

Innocentish
Kath
Sally
Shasta
Lommy

Where did they go?
Gil-Galad
Ka

As of now, I'm most interested in voting Shasta or Lommy as my rep. Of those from my innocent list, it is those two that I trust the most.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Brin

I agree this ploy thing is getting annoying. It's like saying, "Look what I did, I'm so helpful to the village. I'm an absolute genius compared to the rest of you who didn't even attempt any ploys."

Hmm... I don't recall that either of us said that. I did express surprise that I was being suspected apparently because I was actively trying to achieve something. But the way you said it- it provokes negative emotions. And that doesn't help anything. So if you were in some way offended by anything you read, try to become unoffended quickly. For no offense was intended, and being in an aggravated state does not aid clear thinking.

Originally Posted by Brin

And then when people start to suspect them, they react like, "Why are you suspecting me? You should be thanking me."

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

And the reason we discussed the ploy with each other was simply to see if we were on the same page. Building trust! You people wonder why we're trusting each other? Um, maybe because we're doing things to build trust.

Originally Posted by Brin

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves.

Yeah, the only reason that we're the focus is because the rest of you people have made us the focus. We can't do it ourselves.

We were just going along doing our bit for the cause and suddenly we're jumped on for doing our bit. It makes little sense, and I agree with you that we're distracting. But guess what- it has nothing to do with us. Others have made us the focus.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

In that situation, only one can trust the other, and not vice-versa.

Not if the other figures out what has happened.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

tp and Boro are distracting, and I just can't see why someone who is actually innocent would want to distract us from focusing on the wolves. I'm not so sure that both of them are wolves (though it's something they could certainly pull off), but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if one them is a baddie.

Could you give an example of how they are distracting?

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Could you give an example of how they are distracting?

The entire village is keeping focused on those two. If they are both innocent, there are four wolves out there we're not paying attention to. If one or both of them are wolves, there are still two or three other wolves hiding among us. Let's not forget about that.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

Somehow I'm thinking we should leave them for the seer - if they promise to not draw all the discussion on themselves from now on...

We're not trying to draw the discussion to us. I think the focus on us is silly. If people truly feel we're a distraction, how about they stop talking about us? No, that'd be too easy.

I agree about leaving us to the Seer. The Seer will die eventually. When he/she does, it'll be obvious what I am. Perhaps Boro as well.

[Gwathagor]

Maybe the Seer has already dreamed of one of you. It has been several Nights already.

[Boromir88]

The only one who's still sticking to the distraction is you Brinn. I've moved on and began to question morm.

[Gwathagor]

Ok, dinner-time for me. I'll be back to vote for my Rep later.

[Boromir88]

Oh, I may be arrogant right now, Brinn, but when this is over you'll be thanking me and I will be accepting of any apologies.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

Maybe the Seer has already dreamed of one of you. It has been several Nights already.

I said earlier that the Seer had dreamt of me already. I'm serious here, Gwath- I'd bet my entire Werewolf career on it.

I'm not sure if Boro has been done yet as the day is not over yet (and thus potential hints have not finished coming out), but if not I'd bet he's the dream tonight.

[Boromir88]

are the WWs driving this bus, or have Ordos been swept into the Wolf plot so much so that they are driving this thing?~the phantom

It's wolf driven, mark my words. There may be innocent bystanders tagging on, but it's wolf-driven. I just hope it doesn't take your death to prove it. I would much prefer to keep you alive longer, but of course you may be a marked man now.

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry Boro but you are not making any sense to me on this. It seems fairly knee-jerk and grasping at straws all at once.~morm

You would like to think that wouldn't you? But, the truth is morm, I've figured you out haven't I? I want you to become a rep, I want to see what you do. I want to see if you have the spine to actually lynch me. You certainly won't come after me at night, I know that. But you're faced with a dilemma because you can't have me lynched so soon either, or it will all come crashing down.

[Nogrod]

Oh my. I lost a whole post as my online time went out in the neighbourhood pub I was doing this... it went over with three minutes so at the moment I posted it the post just vanished...

Okay. I'm home now and need to be quick. I mean there are new things I feel I have to open my mouth on, really.


tp whatever you are and whatever are your ways I'm thinking you're going a bit off limits very soon. I mean just look at these few from your latest posts.

Originally Posted by tp

I did express surprise that I was being suspected apparently because I was actively trying to achieve something.

Originally Posted by tp

Well if we're telling the truth, then it's true, isn't it?

Originally Posted by tp

And the reason we discussed the ploy with each other was simply to see if we were on the same page. Building trust! You people wonder why we're trusting each other? Um, maybe because we're doing things to build trust.

You know tp that none of these have nothing to do with "clear thinking" you're calling after or are in no way discernible to anyone outside your own head. You call for people to trust you with these!

Why should Greenie trust you? Or Gwath? Or Nerwen? Think of anyone of us others (fex. one of the named above) saying one of these lines and think how you would react? Try it even once...

So you're not satisfied with those arguments? Not satisfied because it was the wrong person saying it? Let me tell you a secret, one doesn't know your role in advance so you might be a goodie or a baddie - like anyone around here. So a person is not the one thing you can trust but the argument. Still you think we should just ignore the non-existant quality of the ones you just produced and then you think you're rightfully annoyed if some people protest?

You can be tp whatever you wish to be but you should admit you're the extreme submarine - compared to whom Gil-Galad and The Ka are loud and clear!

Remember I said I will be judging you on how you behave this Day as it might be your last Day. You're not delivering my friend. You're still producing more chaos around with your reckless argumentation.

I don't know if you are a wolf or a sheep but you manage to make everything a mess - just look at toDay. Remember tp, it's not only whether you're right or not about things but whether what you do aids the village or not (and if you're a wolf then...).

I mean your possibly excellent strategies, if they get you lynched then it's one less possibility for the village to get a wolf lynched.

Your somewhat arrogant "reasonings" (look above for citations) steal all the room as people think whether you have good intentions or not - and the village fails once again as they have no time to concentrate on other things.

You may be right but you ruin the things for those you supposed to be fighting for.


You know your Days are ended either by the seer or the wolves pretty soon so please start to actually think if you're an innocent - and if not, then I'm not going stand in the way of your lynching.

You have something like 28 hours to prove yourself.

Haha, sounds like I had some authority over things...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You would like to think that wouldn't you? But, the truth is morm, I've figured you out haven't I? I want you to become a rep, I want to see what you do. I want to see if you have the spine to actually lynch me. You certainly won't come after me at night, I know that. But you're faced with a dilemma because you can't have me lynched so soon either, or it will all come crashing down.

I will gladly vote for you if I am elected. As I've stated I think you are a wolf. This cock-sured attitude of yours. The way you buddied up. All of these ploys that you've set up and hide behind. You are brazen my friend and I've played with you enough to know not to ever trust you at your word. You are far too clever for that. Now that you are under scrutiny you turn tail (yes that was an intentional reference) and begin lashing out at your primary accuser.

So I want to see if you have the spine to vote for me as rep so that I can vote for you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Don't make me a rep, or I'll be tempted... *evil grin*

Done.

++Lommy for Representative



...Okay. All jesting aside, the two I trust most in this village today are Lommy and mormegil. I'd vote for both of you if I could, but I only have one vote.

Lommy, I may come across as spiteful sometimes, but I don't mean to. I am genuinely angry at Phantom for getting Aganzir killed; I don't really see any gray area here, Aganzir was innocent, Phantom (and to a lesser extent, Boromir got her killed, intentional killing of an innocent is not thereof the action of an innocent. But I wouldn't spite-vote him. I'd be as objective about my vote as possible.

[Nogrod]

Adding to my last one.

Please tp see my point. You've played with Boro before a lot and you share a long history and I can imagine how you might try to find a common chord (and it sure might be more of the person than the arguments in that case). But if that search makes two thirds of the village wishing to lynch you - taking it you're innocents - you're not helping but distracting. Do you get what I mean?

And your trust may be statistically believable as you say, but if you two are trying to build trust how come you make arguments on statistical probabilities. Isn't trust just the opposite of statistics?

[the phantom]

I have a long reply to you coming, Nog. Your reasoning is perplexing to me. But you'll see what I mean...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I have a long reply to you coming, Nog. Your reasoning is perplexing to me. But you'll see what I mean...

It looks pretty simple to me. If the village wants to lynch you, given that you're innocent, you're a "lynching distraction". Kind of odd given that you got Agan killed for that exact reason, .

[Ilya]

I'm here, I'm here! I'm only on page 22, but I'm here.

Post forthcoming.

[Boromir88]

Why should Greenie trust you? Or Gwath? Or Nerwen? Think of anyone of us others (fex. one of the named above) saying one of these lines and think how you would react? Try it even once...~Nogrod

Because instead of looking at the hard evidence that we have so far (the kills), you all want to focus on that since tp and I are working well together we have to be wolves. We absolutely, without question have got to be wolves, and we have to be running this village into the dirt.

The fact that this got blown out of proportion was in no way my doing. When others asked and began suspecting me, I answered. It has nothing to do with arrogance, or saying I'm better than anyone else because I do all these tricks and traps, that's how this became a focus. Not me, not the phantom.

I told you what I was doing, you take it or leave it, but you better stand by your decision when it's time and it's proven I was right about tp. I will make you eat a toaster by golly, watch and wait.

Let me ask you how do you know we're making a mess of this? How do you know what the outcome's going to be? We haven't gotten there yet. The only way I survive in this place is to get into the wolves heads (when I'm innocent), if that gets under your skin you'll just have to deal with it.

How do I know tp and I have gotten into the wolves' heads? The seer is still alive correct. This isn't won on lynching one or two innocent's the first couple days, it isn't even won by lynching two wolves the first two days. It's not won by 7 ordos against 1 wolf. When there is one seer, it is won by the seer alone. Period. And we have to give him/her as many days as possible, as many dreams as possible. If that means I have to make myself a distraction early on, to get the seer to dream of me and then know who's side I'm on and what I'm doing, than I'll do it. If it means getting the wolves to go after other targets at night, maybe tricking them into believing I'm the seer, or Agan is, than I'll do it. That's how we win. End of story.

I mean your possibly excellent strategies, if they get you lynched then it's one less possibility for the village to get a wolf lynched.

I will be dead before I see the ring in the - oops wrong movie. I will be dead before I allow tp to be lynched.

So I want to see if you have the spine to vote for me as rep so that I can vote for you.~morm

You're right, I don't.