Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Firefoot]

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

In general... that was my first thought too...

But, seeing as I live on the edge of the Great Plains, I think I can confidantly say that while most of the lands NORTH of Edoras wouldn't be forested (just groves along the streams and the like), to the SOUTH of Edoras, there would likely be a forested area between the mountains and the plains. On the assumption that the White Mountains are anything like the Rockies (with which I am well familiar) there should be a good, thick forest (coniferous?) between the edge of the plain and the bare heights.

Mind you, though, the Rohirrim have been dwelling in the dales of the White Mountains for five hundred years, and the Gondorrim and proto-Dunlendings before them. But the foothills of the mountains, it seems to me, would likely be more than a little forested.

Also, as Edoras is located in the dales of the White Mountains, it is highly possible that Eodwine, who has shares in the farmlands about the city (which would most likely be towards the north), would also have portions of the forested areas to the south.

At least, that's MY take on the matter.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Saeryn may wish to bed up with the women, but Marenil's likely to put his foot down, and he's not likely to put up with a tongue-lashing from someone he sees as a little girl.

Delightful. I never said she'd be allowed to stay there. Hope he's up to what Saeryn's reaction will likely be.

As Lady, she has appearances and responsibilities to upkeep, and part of that is keeping herself separate from the help.

Oh sure.

I wonder how much Saeryn's thought through her new position and its implications?

Not nearly as much as I have, assuredly.

[JennyHallu]

Heheh...

I wonder how active a part Eodwine will take in getting Saeryn in line. And how he'll take Marenil's handling of it (which will probably be to treat her as a little girl as long as she acts like one...and he'll refuse to even speak to her until she calms down and discusses things as an adult.)

lah de dah...waiting for elempi so we can plan for Stewardiness...I wonder if he anticipated how seriously I'd take the job. I didn't...just started having ideas. I'm enjoying developing Marenil as a power of his own though. I've had a bad habit of letting Lin outshine him. Marenil depends to be his own person, and not an accessory of another, no matter how interesting her story. I just need to adjust to running them as truly separate characters.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I wonder how active a part Eodwine will take in getting Saeryn in line.

Is it that you read my mind, or is it that we think in a frighteningly similar fashion?

until she calms down and discusses things as an adult

Excellent. It'll take a bit, just so you know. Her snit with Degas was minor compared to other things of which she is capable.

The beginnings of door repairs, Jen?

[JennyHallu]

I must confess total confusion. What's that about door repairs? There was something wrong with the doors?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I must confess total confusion. What's that about door repairs? There was something wrong with the doors?

It would seem that slamming will soon be in order. Will the frames hold up well, do you think?

[JennyHallu]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

It would seem that slamming will soon be in order. Will the frames hold up well, do you think?

Oh. Right. Door slamming. Marenil may just quietly keep Stigend very busy if Saeryn breaks her door, so she has to live with the reminder of a childish temper for a while.

[Laiudanama]

Oh, bother - unfortunately, my internet access today has been seriously limited due to telephone problems in the area, so I haven't been able to post, and, as I'm going on holiday, thus won't be able to post until next Sunday really, at the earliest.

I do apologise, but I'm therefore going to have to disappear for a while. Seems Trystan may get lost in the privvy for a whole week - really, LMP, you should be feeling terribly guilty for the poor boy

[Kath]

Admittedly I have been skim reading this, but don't we already have an oven in the kitchen? Because otherwise I have no idea how Kara and Frodides have been cooking all the meals!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Admittedly I have been skim reading this, but don't we already have an oven in the kitchen? Because otherwise I have no idea how Kara and Frodides have been cooking all the meals!

I guess the problem is that there are plans to make it differently - to make a whole new kitchen... no one knows where, at this point I think. Up to Eodwine (and Marenil, and Saeryn...).

Originally Posted by Lai

I do apologise, but I'm therefore going to have to disappear for a while. Seems Trystan may get lost in the privvy for a whole week

Looking at the pace the negotiations are going on and the wealth of topics to discuss at the breakfast table, your whole week (RL) will not even be enough to turn the clocks at the Mead Hall so that it would be believable those places are cleaned yet. So just sit back and relax... (We waited for our entry about three weeks or something... but no problems, just more time to think what to do and what to be)

[JennyHallu]

Kath: look up open hearth cooking. Baked goods would be made in a cast iron dutch oven...the flat lid of a dutch oven is buried in coals for slow constant heat.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity.

From Beowulf; with a gloss. From that book comes the idea of lords as ring-givers in order to secure the loyalty of their warriors. Eodwine is an idealist, which makes him attractive to good people but also gets him in trouble with opportunists. He's enough of a realist to realize this, and puts hope in his retainers that they will be enough of a support to offset - or better yet - insulate the mead hall from - the damage 'opportunists' might try to wreak.

Originally Posted by Jenny

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that.

Well he might. He's got a lord who started life as a farmer/commoner, who was thrust into lordship by a gracious king, and who will be a bad student in terms of becoming less familiar with his vassals.

By all means, have Marenil make the suggestions you've mentioned. This should be quite fun. Marenil will at times find Eodwine to be quite ready to do as he suggests, and at other times quite stubborn.

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men).

Quite right. But where?

I still have more to reply to from your post, Jenny, as time allows....

[JennyHallu]

There should be out buildings (better than hovels) made on the grounds as the number of retainers increases. Something new I've learned from my reading is that in a mead hall, benches were fixed, and bedding was stored underneath them in closed compartments; each warrior had his own assigned bench, and slept in the mead hall during the night. There's your barracks.

The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories. Marenil thinks Eodwine's own men should have a place of higher honor than random strangers, and doesn't want them to have to store their belongings in the open. Marenil also is new to Rohan, and thinks making your sworn armsmen 'roll on the floor with the dogs' is a bit barbaric, especially when your resources allow for something more. (After all, it was insulting when Grima implied only children did so)

EDIT: But those benches sound great for guests...Marenil was thinking of making cotton screens to mark off areas for each guest (he's very big on privacy...)

Hmm...WWTD?

EDIT AGAIN: And a barracks would provide space to harbor the general laborers Eodwine no doubt needs for construction, besides his artisans. Housing for them would preserve space in the Hall for guests, which seemed important to Eodwine.

Oh, and location for the bower: I thought an apse could be built off the main nave of the Hall, opposite the old Inn wing. I've been looking at plans of pilgrim waystations, usually monasteries, that let any and all visitors sleep in the hall, but had separate quarters for permanent residents. It's the wrong era, but now I've got church design stuck in my head somehow.

I SHOULD GIVE IN AND JUST DOUBLE POST:
By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals.

Transport is either through rugged mountains or all the way around them, whichever direction. Is there a way through the White Mountains ... besides the Paths of the Dead, which, though now cleared by Aragron, surely are still not used with any regularity. Eodwine would wonder if the cost of transport wouldn't completely eat up any profits and then some.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse.

If I had been thinking a bit more clearly on court day, I would have had a line or two about the various gifts brought by his many guests, and his returns thereof. I'll have to cover that in a post when I get a chance, after the fact. Minor niggle: "the stove"? Were there such things?

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.

This is something Eodwine would be quite eager to pursue.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

Excellent idea.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.

Well, the lot isn't that big. That's one of the key problems with the mead hall idea and its "implementation". Eodwine may have to beg of the king for more land adjacent to his current mead hall holding. I've addressed the barracks issue already.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Eodwine will be hard to convince about this.... at least, at first.

Feanor, the maids in the White Horse moved on. The only exception I was willing to make was Frodides, who has happily been picked up by Kath. I'd like to keep the mead hall populated by characters that actually have committed writers.

Watch for Eodwine to put his foot down if his steward begins to tell himself or the Lady of the hall how to behave as proper nobility. (this is getting fun!)

The only way I'm willing to have NPCs is if a given writer commits to being that character's regular writer. This may be just a quirk of mine, but I dislike characters hanging around with no writer; this is partly why Gudryn and Æðelhild have been discreetly sent to other places. And, by the way, Lalwendë's characters are considered to have gone to the Fair and then home, to visit again should they wish to.

I'm with Formy on coniferous forests at the feet of the White Mountains ... which are not that far off; but it has yet to be determined if that's Middle Emnet land, or King's land. I'll think about that.

Next post to read: 6:43 p.m. yesterday..... la dee dah dee dah ....

[Firefoot]

As long as we're talking about expansion...

Oughtn't there to be some kind of paddock or something so that the horses aren't in their stalls all day every day? Leof's not having that kind of time to take all the horses out and exercise them as much as I imagine they should be (and if he's supposed to, I sure haven't been writing that in...).

[JennyHallu]

I figured for day laborers their 'writers' would be those directing the crews. As these would be crews rather than individual characters (and, come to think of it, probably most of them don't even need housing, but live in the city) I didn't see that there would be a problem with them being NPCs. After all, they ought to be too busy working to have time to socialize with the residents

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'll take on a maid or two. At least one. I'll flesh her out at work and post up a mini-bio. She won't be a big player, but she'll at least be around with a writer.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

NAME: Merdha

AGE: 52

RACE: Rohirric

GENDER: female

WEAPONS: broom and dustpan, Waggling Finger of Disappointment

APPEARANCE: around 5'8", golden hair that's going silver; stoutly built. An averagely pretty Rohirric lass back in the day, but the years and the child-bearing have caught up with her. She is huggably round with a lap that's simply made for small children to sit in. Clothed practically in skirt, blouse, apron. Hair braided singly and twisted into a knot at the base of her neck each day.

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: Merdha is the maternal sort and does not hesitate to lecture those of any station if she thinks that they haven't eaten enough or done their chores. She is especially good with children, but she is well liked by nearly all adults, too. Her presence is relaxing, even when she is cocking her head an looking at you in such a way as to ask "Now why haven't your chores been finished yet? Hm? Hop to it!" She puts up with no nonsense and has a weakness for both a good story (clever excuses have been known, if they are original and funny enough, to get their giver out of work) and a good slice of pie.

HISTORY: Merdha grew up in a traditional Rohirric household with traditional Rohirric values. She worked as a maid in her youth to bring extra money to her parents and married a horseherder. She happily raised the four of her seven children that made it out of the cradle and cared for other children as well until they were all old enough to tend for themselves. When her children grew into adolescence and adulthood and began to care for themselves, Merdha fell into a job as a maid and all around housekeeper for an elderly couple to bring in extra money to her household and to take up the time that her husband spent away from home. The couple have recently passed away and Merdha is looking for a new place of employment in which to do such things as light cleaning, bed making, and whatever else an aging grandmotherly sort can do that won't break her back.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

May I let Merdha end up as the one to relieve Saeryn of housekeeperly duties? I can forsee a way that she would be able to acquire the position with no hard feelings from anyone, given the chance.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

The reason I suggested a separate barracks is because Eodwine opens his doors to any guest, with no way to check up on them or their stories.

Eodwine is going to butt heads with Marenil on this one....

Hmm...WWTD?

Indeed!

By outbuildings I assume you mean small cottages? Ooh...that could be nice, and very simple. No kitchens are needed, just a fireplace for warmth with a chimney that could be shared by two cottages, built side-to-side...and big enough that a woman could have a dutch oven or something if she chose, because every woman should have space to make sweets for her own kids . A single good-sized room with a sturdily floored loft?

I like it. Eodwine will too.

Hmmmm... a paddock. That is a problem. That's one of the reason why the old White Horse Inn was one supremely BAD choice as residence of the new Eorl of the Middle Emnet. There's no space for it unless Eodwine buys neighboring properties, which he can't afford to do. So the horses have currently to be exercised by, well, riding them through town! (sheesh) ... or into the open country. Not that Edoras is a city, of course, but the White Horse Inn would have been situated in the middle of town, near a market with residences not far away.

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it. Of course, I wouldn't mind. And yes you can have Saeryn turn her into the housekeeper. There! I think I'm caught up! That took, what, 3 days? During which time I've looked at not a single other thread! Good grief! Now to check out what all of you have actually been writing on the Mead Hall thread......(good grief)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Feanor, you can't fool me. Merdha threatens to become a major character and you know it.

I know it as well as you do. I also know that she wasn't meant to be one... it just sort of happened.

Ah, back to work.

How much longer will this "day" last, do you think?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

How much longer will this "day" last, do you think?

Could be a while. I don't know. I've only read into post #438 so far. Back to 'work'.

[Folwren]

Okay, I am back again and this was my last week at camp, so I will be able to keep up now for some time consistantly.

Are we still in that same day that I left? Is Lin gone yet? I do not have any time at all tonight to read any of the game thread, so if no one wants to give me a brief over view of what is current in the game, I will catch up tomorrow and Sunday. I will probably read over the posts anyway, so yo ureally don't have to write up an over view.

Just wanted to say that I'm here and will be once again participating, I hope. For now, I'm going to go check two more games and then head for bed.

-- Folwren

[Taralphiel]

*sneaks in on the back of Foley's post*

Hullo all! I thougt I'd second Foley's request, as I'm somewhat swamped with catching up on this RPG.

If it is as you say, Elempi, and the day will go on a littllonger, I'll try to get a post in for Lys. Since the day of the Court little will have happened to him.



- Tara

[Formendacil]

Ladies,

It is the day of Lin's departure- and departed she has.

But it is still fairly early morn, and most of the construction bigwigs are in various discussion over the continued progress of the Mead Hall restructuring.

From the looks of things, this Day will continue for a while yet, in Real Time.

Oh, and I hope you're joking about putting a Save on the Mead Hall thread, Taralphiel... *Isn't always so good at picking up on jokes*

[Taralphiel]

Or I'm half asleep and haven't had my morning coffee.

XD

I'll go take that little detail out. Thanks for pointing it out for me!

-Tara

[Nogrod]

I'll try to write something today (less than 12 hours from now). Hopefully Celuien has time too so that we may put things forwards.

[Celuien]

I'm around today, though a bit behind in the discussion...

I'll post after you, Nogrod, if that's okay. Are we going with the kitchen next to the hall, but with the double wall around the oven/stove/firepit area?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm around today, though a bit behind in the discussion...

I'll post after you, Nogrod, if that's okay. Are we going with the kitchen next to the hall, but with the double wall around the oven/stove/firepit area?

I'll make Stigend purt forward his ideas, and Garstan should react to them - then I guess it's up to Eodwine to decide how we proceed.... It will take me some two hours to make the post as I'm enjoying my RL summer evening with Lommy's little sister, crerating a board game of our own right now...

[Celuien]

Okay. Reply is in. I'm a little busy today, so I might not have the chance to post again until tomorrow night. Garstan is quite agreeable to either plan.

[littlemanpoet]

Eodwine has summarized the points of Garstan and Stigend, and was about to begin to make a decision on Frodides' kitchen when in marched Frodides. Let me know if the words I've put in her mouth are okay with you, Kath, seeing as she has pretty much become your character.

[Kath]

It's perfect lmp, I shall now hop off and get a post done.

EDIT: And done. I didn't use anyone in terms of talking, but if you think they've done something they wouldn't just yell at me and I'll change it.

[JennyHallu]

Um...the against-the-sleeping-quarters idea is all well and good, but remember, we have only natural light! those guest rooms against the new kitchen would be pitch black.


I've had Marenil say so.

[littlemanpoet]

Righteeo, Jenny. Eodwine quite agrees.

[Nogrod]

Sorry. I'm going to be away for five days and can't take an active part on this planning meanwhile. So use Stigend as you see fit when needed.

Looks nice!

[Folwren]

If this Day is lasting much longer, should I join? I was planning not to, but it looks like they're discussing what's going to happen to the Mead Hall shortly. Is Thornden needed there to keep his reputation up? Or can I still wait until the next Day? Merenil is there giving his opinion and I think that Thornden is not needed in this sort of decision making any more, as he's only acting as bailiff (though that's not the word, I know) and almsbudsman. Am I correct?

Sorry for all the questions. I really have not been keeping up on the game thread at all this Day.

-- Folwren

[littlemanpoet]

Thornden doesn't need to be there. Once this little discussion has been wrapped up, I think that ties all the necessary strings on the Day. So it shouldn't take tooooo long.....

That said, here's the million dollar question:

How far into the future can we go without messing things up for you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

My characters are adaptable. Whenever works best for everyone else.

[Kath]

So long as Frodides gets her answer about the kitchen I don't have a problem with a time jump.