Treachery of Men Discussion/Planning Thread

[Folwren]

I have nothing to do with this murder...and therefore, most likely, neither does Uldor. But he does stuff behind my back sometimes, the villain....

So, just say that it's Jord acting on her own.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

LMP: So how 'bout this confrontation with Thorn? I'm ready, just give the word.

The plot seems to be calling for Khandr to meet up with Jord no matter what Thorn might do. Khandr has left Khandr's homestead and is going directly to the palace. Jord has left the palace and is going directly to Khandr's holding. These two bee-lines look too direct for Thorn to reach Jord first; he may have special knowledge, but he is only human.

Noinkling! Great to have you back! I've been reading your posts with great respect, and now there's more to enjoy.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Gwathagor,



Ah....that's what I like to hear. An able bodied character willing to do away with Khandr. Originally, Durelin and I had talked about some kind of confrontation between Jord and Khandr and then Jord acting on her own. However, all that is open to change. So let me know what you prefer or just spring it on me in the storyline...however you want to handle it.

Khandr is on the way to the palace to snoop around. However, I'll make sure and finish off Khandr's post with Thorn now so LMP will be free to go anywhere that you two desire.

Welcome to the game!

I like the idea of some kind of confrontation between Jord and Khandr, so: Jord will knife Khandr, and then they can have a sort of a metaphysical/dream confrontation while Khandr hovers between the living and the dead (ala Assassin's Creed).

How does that strike you?

[piosenniel]

Noinkling

I've put up a SAVE and will try to get to it later. Work calls

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I like the idea of some kind of confrontation between Jord and Khandr, so: Jord will knife Khandr, and then they can have a sort of a metaphysical/dream confrontation while Khandr hovers between the living and the dead (ala Assassin's Creed).

How does that strike you?

I don't know..... doesn't sound particularly Middle Earthish, but I suppose it may be in how it's done. I don't know Assassin's Creed.

[Gwathagor]

Well, I suppose we COULD be conventional...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Gwathagor,

"Assassin's Creed"? Hmm.

Sorry for my denseness. I need some help here. I'm very familiar with the historical Assassins, hired Shi'ite killers of the middle ages who allied with Saladin during the Crusades. I've also heard of the recent videogame Assassin's Creed, which features an imaginery assassin, but I've never played it. I'm not sure how either of these relate to hovering between life and death.

I'm also not sure about a post-death metaphysical/dream struggle in the context of Tolkien. The author is so adament about no one knowing where men go when they leave the circles of the world. I suppose there's the possibility of some dead souls hanging on within Arda like the men of Dunharrow in LotR, or the houseless Elves. But again I'm not sure how this would relate to Khandr. You need to convince me that this is believable within the context of Middle-earth before we start to post. I have no problem with unconventional, but it needs to fit loosely within the context of Tolkien. If you can explain in those terms, I'm more than willing to have Khandr adapt.

[Gwathagor]

In Assassin's Creed, after you assassinate your target, there is a short cut scene depicting a conversation between you (the assassin) and the victim. This conversation does not take place in the physical world, though. It's as though they converse in a kind of limbo/spirit world, as the dead man's spirit is still hovering over his body, having not yet departed for the realm of the dead.

If it were any other character, I would agree that this wouldn't fit Middle-earth at all. However, Jord IS a Maia (and a vampire), and so I think we could get away with her talking to dead people.

But, it's just a suggestion.

[Folwren]

Depending on what you have in mind, Gwathagor, you could have the discussion before he dies.

[Gwathagor]

Sure.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thanks Gwathagor for making that clearer, also Folwren with her idea. How about this? We could use Tolkien's concept of Ósanwe and have the exchange of thoughts take place as Khandr lies dying.... fëa to fëa so to speak. I could envision such an exchange between a Maia and a human. Frodo certainly picked up vibes from Gandalf.

I am still a bit uncertain exactly what that exchange of thoughts would be. Khandr is a decent man but I don't think he could mentally challenge a Maia in any way. I suppose that Jord could reveal to him the full extent of the treason that will be taking place on the battlefield. That would certainly depress him! What general direction do you see this exchange going? Feel free to reply on the thread or send me a pm if you want to get into details.

[Gwathagor]

That's exactly what I had in mind. Because she's mean and cruel and more than a bit self-satisfied, Jord can give Khandr a vision of what is to come, with the intent that he dies despairing. Maybe we can think of some last glimmer of hope, something positive, for Khandr to grasp as he dies, so that Jord's present victory is not absolute. What do you think?

[littlemanpoet]

Now this is intriguing! And Thorn would have a bit more into this than what I had been thinking, as he is a listener to the Song. His "second hearing" (rather than "second sight") would give him some percipience into this, which could lead right into his own confrontation with Jord. Thoughts?

[Gwathagor]

That sounds great.

It would give Thorn a pretty clear idea of Jord's/Morgoth's plans for the Easterlings (they are Easterlings, aren't they?), and would therefore have to speed the choosing of sides and the actual betrayal considerably. Jord would realize that if Thorn knows, he's probably going to tell the good guys (Lachrandir in particular). Is that an accurate assessment?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Would this work?

As Khandr lies dying, overwhelmed by the grim news that Jord has conveyed to him, he desperately reaches out for another fea to pass on what he has learned. He can do no more than briefly feel a hint of Thorn's mind and then immediately dies. But this would set up the scene for a confrontation of some sort...whatever sort you want....between Thorn and Jord.

It might also make sense that, since Thorn already knows that Khandr is in deep trouble, he might actually be making an attempt to "read" the latter from a distance and would therefore respond more readily when the old Borrim diplomat reaches out for help.

[Folwren]

If Jord finds out about Thorn and knows that he is knows somewhat about the future and knows about the treachery, is she not going to want to do something about it? She doesn't want Lachrandir to ever learn about it. And, I don't believe that according to the history, Lachrandir can learn about it. The men's treachery was not known to the elves until their moment in the battle.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Folwren,

A valid question that also crossed my mind: how are we going to make this come one with the same ending as Tolkien did? Littlemanpoet definitely needs to weigh in on this.

I suppose there is more than one way to handle this. A few spring to mind. One possibility is that Jord is able to shield all or part of the information from Thorn so that he only suspects what might be going on and must find out more to be able to persuade anyone, which he somehow fails to do. Another possibility is that Thorn tries to warn Lachrandir but, for whatever reason, the Elf turns a deaf ear so that it never goes beyond the two. (Or is this stretching the storyline too far?) There is also the possibility that Thorn does learn exactly what is going on, but somehow does not live long enough to make use of his information.

Perhaps Littlemanpoet has additional ideas, or has already thought this through.

[Folwren]

I doubt Lachrandir will turn a deaf ear. He already dislikes the Ulfings.

There is also the possibility that Thorn does learn exactly what is going on, but somehow does not live long enough to make use of his information.

I think we could arrange that.

In all seriousness - Elempi, what are your thoughts?

[littlemanpoet]

Lachrandir? A good guy? Never thought of him that way myself.....

Here's how I see things possibly unfolding.

Option 1:

Thorn knows a confrontation is about to take place and is waiting for Jord to reveal herself as Morgoth's rather powerful pawn. Therefore he is listening to the Song and through it hears Khandr's final plea, and somehow manages to give him peace though not necessarily hope. Because this happens within the harmonies of the Song, Jord cannot perceive it and doesn't know who Thorn is but that someone has intervened.

Lachrandir doesn't trust the Ulfings, true; Thorn is an Ulfing; why would Lachrandir listen to him any more than the others? So Thorn could attempt to tell him and be rebuffed.

If Thorn maintains his distance from Jord - for now - he can tell Lachrandir and be rebuffed - which he expects anyway and which is why he spoke first to Khandr.

Option 2:

Thorn intervenes between Jord and Khandr, gives Khandr enough knowledge of the Song to give him peace in death, and then is killed by Jord. Plain and simple.

Option 1 seems more interesting to me than Option 2, and Option 1 has the added mystique of Jord not necessarily knowing that Thorn knows; which would make their confrontation later a lot more interesting too.

Does this seem workable?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Folwren

If Jord finds out about Thorn and knows that he is knows somewhat about the future and knows about the treachery, is she not going to want to do something about it? She doesn't want Lachrandir to ever learn about it. And, I don't believe that according to the history, Lachrandir can learn about it. The men's treachery was not known to the elves until their moment in the battle.

So maybe we just KILL everybody...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Lachrandir doesn't trust the Ulfings, true; Thorn is an Ulfing; why would Lachrandir listen to him any more than the others? So Thorn could attempt to tell him and be rebuffed.

Option 1 seems more interesting to me than Option 2, and Option 1 has the added mystique of Jord not necessarily knowing that Thorn knows; which would make their confrontation later a lot more interesting too.

I like this!

[Lalaith]

Ang and I had originally worked out that Embla would take a kind of Cassandra role, that she would try to warn Lachrandir but he would be too haughty to listen to her or understand her properly.

However, it obviously would be stupid/unlikely for both Thorn AND Embla to try to warn the elves and for them to refuse to listen to either of them.

So perhaps Embla should just skulk away somewhere...

[Folwren]

Well...It scarcely seems good to cut you out of something that was planned originally.

I just thought that it might be dangerous for Thorn to even try to contact Lachrandir at all, wanted as he is by Uldor. And yet...I, like Gwathagor, liked Elempi's idea.

Perhaps, Lalaith, Embla might attempt it and not get to Lachrandir. She coudl tell Tathren, or try to, anyway... I don't know.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

So perhaps Embla should just skulk away somewhere...

Well she might go skulking somewhere with Fastarr...

I was indeed thinking about a post which would lead the two to Khandr's residence and meet Thorn there - and possibly Briga if she hasn't left already (there hasn't been a long time).

But do you wish for Thorn to leave first so that Fastarr and Embla try themselves or should they meet the old man (and / or Briga) first?

PS. Sorry. I've had some hectic days and will have until the weekend is over but I'll try to keep up.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Ang and I had originally worked out that Embla would take a kind of Cassandra role, that she would try to warn Lachrandir but he would be too haughty to listen to her or understand her properly.

However, it obviously would be stupid/unlikely for both Thorn AND Embla to try to warn the elves and for them to refuse to listen to either of them.

So perhaps Embla should just skulk away somewhere...

On the contrary, I rather like the idea that Lachrandir gets not one but two chances, and blows it both times.

Noggie and Lalaith, if is seems all right to you, how about Fastarr and Embla attempt to talk to Lachrandir first, and then after Thorn has also tried and failed to convince the arrogant Elf, they meet and talk?

[Gwathagor]

Yes, I really like the Embla=Cassandra concept.

[piosenniel]

Noinkling

I've filled in my SAVE. Take it and run with it!

~*~ Pio

[Noinkling]

Thanks, Pio!

Will see what I can do.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Noggie and Lalaith, if is seems all right to you, how about Fastarr and Embla attempt to talk to Lachrandir first, and then after Thorn has also tried and failed to convince the arrogant Elf, they meet and talk?

Suits me fine.

I'll try to post tomorrow:
- Embla and Fastarr come to Khandr's place and find him gone.
- Fastarr suggests they find Thorn but Embla calls for an immediate attempt to find Lachrandir.
- They go to search the elf.

I could write them as far as finding him but I can also leave to them leaving Khandr's residence.

Embla surely would be the one to address the elf.

Is that okay with Lalaith and lmp?


PS: Where should they find the elves? Any ideas where Lachrandir is right now?

[Lalaith]

Nogrod, I think you should certainly get those two somewhere, so by all means, take them to the elf!

Ok, so now we talk to the elf before we find Khandr dead....that would kind of work actually, because if we come to Lachrandir with a dead body, then clearly that's hard evidence he should listen to, while at the moment it's just speculation and Embla's visions, and its easier for him to dismiss us.
Or maybe we should talk to Mith's little chap, I'm sure she won't mind.
Whatever, you decide.

What will happen, btw, when we do find the body? Should we in fact find the body?

[littlemanpoet]

Lachrandir will be found with Uldor and Ulfast on the hunt; and being with them is finally becoming respectful of their prowess. So he'll have to be hunted for on the hunt.

I think the body should be found. Would Jord/Thruingwethil want to hide it?

[Gwathagor]

By no means! Jord wants to breed as much suspicion and division as she can. Hopefully, lots of characters would be suspect.

I think I'll just kill him now, if it's alright with everyone.

[Gwathagor]

I've done it! He's dead! Or nearly...

I hope I haven't attributed too many attitudes and feelings to Khandr, Child of the 7th Age? I'll edit it if you need me to.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thanks Gwathagor.

Therefore he is listening to the Song and through it hears Khandr's final plea, and somehow manages to give him peace though not necessarily hope. Because this happens within the harmonies of the Song, Jord cannot perceive it and doesn't know who Thorn is but that someone has intervened.

Littlemanpoet -- Are we still going ahead with this? Shall I post something where Khandr tries to reach out at the instant before death and then you can post?

[Gwathagor]

Ha ha. Thorn feels a disturbance in the Force!

[littlemanpoet]

You can post if you like, Child. I felt so inspired by Gwath's post that I actually wrote one and was almost finished when my computer time at work ran out and I lost the whole thing! But it's still tucked away in my memory, so I'll be able to reproduce it. But I can wait.

[Gwathagor]

That's very sad.

[Nogrod]

As Embla and Fastarr were last left heading towards Khandr's residence I had to use some imagination to twist them from that route to go for the elves instead. I hope my choice is okay with you Lalaith. I was kind of running low with better ideas.

And Lalaith, as usual please inform me if I have represented Embla the wrong way and I will change whatever you wish.

People in the hunt! Feel free to crush on these two who are rambling through the forest if you wish... especially Ulfings and elves... Just be aware that Fastarr is short-tempered, not loving the Ulfings and now he feels both love and a duty to protect Embla...

[Lalaith]

It's all cool, Noggie.

If anyone wants to meet us, that's also cool. If not, I'd better push the couple on at some point soon, in which case we need to meet Lachrandir, where is he right now?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

we need to meet Lachrandir, where is he right now?

Wherever you decide to find him - - on the hunt, not far from the "Ul----" brothers and Tathren.