Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Bêthberry]

Bah humbug, lmp.

Courtly love is wrong because it is not wholly theocentric and diverts

Originally Posted by Tolkien

"the young man's eyes off women as they are, as companions in shipwreck not guiding stars. . . . It inculcates exaggerated notions of 'true love', as a fire from without, a permanent exaltation, unrelated to age, childbearing, and plain life, and unrelated to will and purpose.. . . Women really have not much part in all this, though they may use the language of romantic love, since it is so entwined in all our idioms. The sexual impulse makes women (naturally when unspoiled more unselfish) very sympathetic and understanding, or specially desirous of being so (or seeming so),...the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. . . . Before the young woman knows where she is (and while the romantic young man, when he exists, is still sighing), she may actually 'fall in love'. Which for her, an unspoiled natural young woman, means that she wants to become the mother of the young man's children, even if that desire is by no means clear to her or explicit. . . . You may meet in life (as in literature) women who are flighty, or even plain wanton--I don't refer to mere flirtatiousness, the sparring practice for the real combat, but to women who are too silly to take even love seriously, or are actually so depraved as to enjoy 'conquests' or even enjoy the giving of pain--but these are abnormalities. . . . Unless perverted by bad contemporary fashions they do not as rule talk 'bawdy'; not because they rae purer than men (they are not) but because they don't find it funny. I have known those who pretended to, but it is a pretence. It may be intriguing, interesting, absorbingh (even a great deal to absorbing) to them: but it is just p lumb natural, a serious, obvious interest; where is the joke? ... But they are instinctively, when uncorrupt, monogamous... Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes: in the sense that almost certainly (in a more perfect world) or even with a little more care in this very imperfect one), both partners might have foundmore suitable mates.. . . "

Well, I suppose that is covered by lmp's "decidedly man-centric" comment, but isn't it much more interesting to see just how Tolkien thinks a young woman ought to behave? Of course, this is just a letter, and so I suppose it is less canonical than LotR, which doesn't really say anything about Arwen's desires for Aragorn, or Galadariel's for Gimli's or Celeborn's, or Rosie's for Sam...

It is such a tangled web, trying to figure out what is a proper attitude to display in young women characters in RPGs. Actually, Jenny, there are several threads here on the Downs which do discuss the possibility of those very trysts you are alluding to. It is possible that elves 'get away with it'... in the fine print of Luthien and Beren, to which of course Tolkien alluded in his gravestone, a choice he made both for himself and Edith. My letter omits his comments on his and her relationship.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

You've got to be kidding me.

I'm writing my women and their opinions of men the way I want them. Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

[Firefoot]

What Fea said.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Fea

Tolkien can go suck a lemon

Fea, you're too funny.

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post.

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along....

... when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?)

There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Women lived under constraints in his time that they do no longer. Moving right along....

Yep. Moving along.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There's still (1) Stigend and Modtryn to take care of (2) Saeryn to discuss the court day with (3) Degas and Saeryn to have a fight in Eodwine's presence, all toDay yet. THEN we move into the next Day. Might not happen until after this weekend, for all I know....

Okay. That should be plenty of time for the post.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There are no problems with the post under discussion, Celuien and Jenny. The only problem it seemed to have was that Garstan seemed to be reacting to the situation less like a commoner and more like a fellow noble who had a stake in Linduial herself. That seeming problem has been answered to my satisfaction.

Understood.

[Firefoot]

Nerindel - are you around still? If so, do you want to try and do something with Aedhel and Leof still toDay?

[Nogrod]

As Eodwine seems to have two discussions in front of him toDay and he has indicated that our family should follow him suit, I'll make a save to the thread for our discussion and try to come up with it today - tomorrow so that Eodwine may react to it once more and then have the discussion with Saeryn (and to wittness the fight).

That sounds okay?

--------------------------------------

EDIT

Nogrod - please check your PM's concerning SAVEs on the Mead Hall thread.

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Nerindel - are you around still? If so, do you want to try and do something with Aedhel and Leof still toDay?

Nerindel has not been around for some time. I PM'd her over a month ago, which she responded to with a "do what you need to"; so her character has been moved to Meduseld until Nerindel returns to write with us again.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fea

Tolkien can go suck a lemon.

Originally Posted by Celuien

Fea, you're too funny.

I think I'll start a lemon farm. Because I heartily disagree with the sentiments expressed in said letter, but that's a topic for another thread, I think...

Anyway, I'll be back with a post sometime tomorrow evening or Friday (if that timing is okay - when were you planning to do the next jump, lmp?) in which Garstan expresses his concerns to Lin's brother. Hopefully that will settle this little twist so we can move on.

Wow. So much discussion from one post.

EDIT: And about that post, anything special anyone wants me to put in there to make sure we don't run into problems again?

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns.

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh?

*moving along*

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

*sings* Lemon tree very pretty, and the fruit ...

Ah, that might be a reference too dated for you young 'uns.

Not for this young 'un.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Celuien, for this reader, there wasn't a 'problem' with that post, just an interesting aspect to consider here about all the loves and lives going on. Can't a reader ask questions or make comparisons? I thought there would be interesting response to dear Tolkien's letter, which lmp did his level best to gloss over. That "no sex" RPGing rule has to come from somewhere, eh?

Comparisons welcome. I did worry, however, that we'd slipped into anakronism after reading the comments on courtly love and seeing lmp's history lesson.

Actually, I find this an interesting discussion, possibly needing expansion on the Books forum or HI-ing of related topics.

Moving right along...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Celuien, when approaching Farahil, just remember that he doesn't share his thoughts. Generally at all.

[Celuien]

So noted.

The only thing Garstan will do is report. He's uncomfortable enough as it is to do anything else.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Poor dear... poor hall in general, come to think of it.

[littlemanpoet]

One rule: There are to be no 'saves'.

Just by way of reminder.

I forgot about the rule myself and did one; our kindly Rohan Moderator Piosenniel informed me that as Moderator of this thread, I have a right to place SAVES for story flow. But I'll do it only very sparingly if at all because Pio only needs a request to place a post within a previous post.

If we're desperate to get a bit of writing to fit in a certain spot in the story flow, we ask Pio to do it for us rather than clutter up the thread with SAVES .... which sometimes stay put and are forgotten about, which is actually sort of deplorable, don't you think?

Back to writing!

[Nogrod]

LMP

Sorry to have caused the fuzz by imitating your example yesterday...

I'll have our post up in an hour or so.

You should probably answer to it in a way that you can continue your other tasks for the Night. But I will be quite readily available, so that if you want a short answer, I'll probably be able to give it very soon (a short one, surely - this upcoming one seems to be getting a long one once again), meaning absolutely less than 24 hours from your post.

And we could always use Pio here...

Nice to be really in this game at last!

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, Noggie. We could always build a post via PM. Seems to be a catching trend....

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Seems to be a catching trend....

Yeah, speaking of that... go check yours!

[Nogrod]

Okay, post in.

lmp, check the palate - have I described a believable late-evening "snack" for the Eorl? Are you (Eodwine and Saeryn) acting believably?

And sorry for the flooding, but really there were so many things to say. The meaning was not that our characters just talk without letting you hosts / masters any space to answer, but as I knew that we should have to deal with this with just a couple of posts, I tried to fill all relevant information in I managed.

And yes. So bad Lommy is without a net access for a while. I have tried to "drag" Modtryth with - and have asked for her blessing with a mobile phone with the way I have portraid her and for her charactert's actions. Happily we had some discussions about our characters and their relations before, so this should be okay by Lommy also in the end (hadn't time to check the latest things I added / rewrit).

I would like us to make one more post on this Day. SOmething how Eodwine thinks of the stuff and maybe a reaction. But surely you can just answer and give us a leave. Our characters might then speculate about your answer (and find Cnebba from somewhere... )

PM'ing is allright by me as I can manage my scheduals quite freely. Just give me some times when we could do it and I'll tell you when I have to sleep...

[Celuien]

Garstan has all three kids with him right now. I'm sure he'll be quite willing to release them. He has business to settle. At least from his point of view.

Trying for tonight, but possibly not until tomorrow...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Garstan has all three kids with him right now. I'm sure he'll be quite willing to release them. He has business to settle. At least from his point of view.

Just release Cnebba the way you want. If we (Stigend and Modtryth) are excused from the kitchen before we have seen Cnebba, we would be searching for him anyways. But you could also send him there in the middle of our discussion (meaning after we had spoken our mouths with that mammouth of a post)

If lmp has time to write us an answer in the next 24 hours, I could try to help you out with that one. If you have so much time...

I had already thought of a meeting between Garstan and Stigend - the future working-pair, but then I saw that lmp had already written us to the kitchen table and remembered that the kids had gone already. So there was no natural chance there.

Maybe here then, or then later?

Should we PM about this as not to overload this thread? I'm going to sleep now, but will be awake in some eight hours...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Should we PM about this as not to overload this thread?

Maybe so. I'll be asleep about 8 hours from now, but awake in 10. Timezones...

[littlemanpoet]

I've had Cnebba show up to help out with the evening meal. Surely the kid has to be starving and could smell food, and would find his way in? If you want to handle it differently, let me know.

I've written it so that we can segué rather smoothly into the PM post Feanor and I have been building for Eodwine and Saeryn to discuss the court day.

If you have any requests for edits regarding my posts today, please PM me; I'll respond quicker that way.

[Celuien]

All three children were together eating apples, and Garstan was taking them to find Cnebba's mother at the end of my last post...

Having Cnebba come back works fine for me. I'll assume that the group came close enough for food to be sniffed and that Cnebba then entered the room, leaving Garstan free to carry on his business with Lin's brother.

Cnebba's playmates, however, might want to join him there in a bit, if that's okay with you and Nogrod.

[littlemanpoet]

We can work it out, Celuien. Just notify me and/or Noggie of any edits we need to make.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Why Degas insists on provoking her when he knows what will happen...

Saeryn will regret this like nobody's business in the morning.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Cnebba's playmates, however, might want to join him there in a bit, if that's okay with you and Nogrod.

That's fine with me. I'll probably write a shorter one still to get us into our room and wonder about the day while you folks start your discussions of the court day and have the argument.

Maybe the best way to get your children back is that Garstan will come to get them from our room - then we can also meet.

Sounds okay?

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Maybe the best way to get your children back is that Garstan will come to get them from our room - then we can also meet.

Sounds okay?

That works perfectly.

My next post will send Garstan's kids Cnebba-ward before he goes to bear his news.

[Celuien]

There. Done.

As far as Garstan is concerned, he has now fulfilled his responsibility by informing the lady's family about the possibility of her goin' a-courtin'. Any additional questions might be answered by referring Farahil to Lin since my poor confused stoneshaper feels out of place and doesn't really know what he should or shouldn't say.

And he'll be on his way to find the children again. Garstan doesn't know what to think of having another Dundendling around just yet after the horse-thieving question with Manawyth (which also puzzles him greatly), but he's inclined to be favorably disposed toward the family. Cnebba made a good impression. And at any rate, he will follow the Eorl's lead about anyone in the household.

[JennyHallu]

Lin's too busy wallowing in self pity to say this, so I, on her behalf, extend my thanks to Garstan for his *aHEM* discretion.

Oh and Fea, will Degas be giving some sort of hint or answer to Lin's question ere she leaves?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh, what a tangled web we weave... Farahil has reacted in a typical Farahil way. Saeryn has reacted in a less typical one to her own surprise visitor.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Lin's too busy wallowing in self pity to say this, so I, on her behalf, extend my thanks to Garstan for his *aHEM* discretion.

His keeper thanks you for your thanks.

[Thinlómien]

Wow, it seems the events have started unfolding.

Of course when I happen to be away...

Noggie, the post is fine with me.

Great posting everyone. I might be able to do one post next week - Wednesday or later.

I think Modtryth could be hired too, to do some maidwork or help in the kitchen etc. if there's need for such a work.

And it might be inevitable that she meets Manawyth.

[JennyHallu]

Just because my curiousity has been aroused, I have done some research into medieval and dark ages courting customs:

And from what I've found, Garstan's concerns seem appropriate. While it is true, LMP, that often marriage was postponed until fertility was assured, this was a rather formal process in and of itself. After all, there is much difference between a modest lass seeking marriage and a lightskirt. I have read (didn't save the link. Oops.) of a 'handfasting' system, where the young couple are declared betrothed in church, with no date set for the wedding beyond a year and a day, or some such significant interval. If the couple find the fertility of the bride to be a concern, at that point they are officially betrothed, and there is no taboo upon "alone time" (If this involves physical intimacy, it is quietly winked upon by their elders, but never truly acknowledged. The important thing is that it is no longer improper for the two to spend time alone without a chaperone, whereas it otherwise would be, no matter the rank of the couple.) The wedding date can then be set whenever it needs to be, and if the proscribed interval passes, the two are both then officially single unless they renew the betrothal.

Does that make sense or have I talked mostly in circles?

[JennyHallu]

Um...Elempi, I thought you said the door to the room was left open? Not a big deal, but...which was it?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Presumably it was open for his talk with Saeryn to preserve propriety and closed once her brother, a good chaperone, was there to preserve privacy?

[JennyHallu]

I just got confused since it wasn't specified. Fea: Will there be some acknowledgement of Lin's question from Degas before she leaves?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Degas's response is written and ready to be posted. As soon as it becomes "tomorrow," I'll see if I can stop grinning long enough to put it up.

[Folwren]

What's happening? I'm at a suddenly total loss of what is going on here.

My real question is this - how soon do you want to move time ahead, Elempi? If you guys are still planning on spending some time this night, I'd like to have Thornden and Lys talk some.

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

I've done my "short" post...

Please Fea: tell me if Saeryn is handled badly - I'll correct it instantly.

We are conspirating a final post for this day with Celuien where the future working pair will meet before going to sleep. It will be in quite soon - I suppose.

Folwren: I think we are about to close the day to go ... to the next day, and jump only then (or then I'm wrong).