The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, off the top of my head I can think of 3 Sindarin/Noldorin examples

Ereinion 'descendant of kings'
Eldarion 'descendant of Elves' (might be Quenya)
Arathornion 'son of Arathorn'

However, these date from the late or post-LR period. When did Noldorin abandon the go-, bo- prefix as a patronymic?

[Galin]

I would say Eldarion is Quenya and might contain a patronymic.

Instead of Eldar-ion with a plural 'Elves' I think (not sure) it's possible we might have Elda-ri(g)-on with *rig- 'crown' plus a masculine, as similarly, perhaps, in Telperion, or more certainly the element 'crown' in Sindarin Galadriel 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'

On the other matter, good question. I can say without much delving (being lazy) that at the time Etymologies was being constructed go- was said to be used for patronymics in Ilkorin (go-Thingol).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

No, Sindarin doesn't have genitive endings– it uses word-order and prepositions instead. Theoretically, "Inglorion" could just be a descriptive name or title, c.f. "Thalion"– except that as far as I'm aware it doesn't mean anything.

(I think "Inglor" is in fact meant to be a Sindarin adaption of a Quenya name.)

So I guess we're still left with Inglorion = "son or descendant of Inglor". Perhaps it's meant in a non-literal way?

By the way, "Eldarion" is definitely Quenya.

[Galin]

Etymologies aside, I think Inglor (Q. Ingalaure) means *Gold of the Ingar or (long version) 'the one with golden hair like that of the Ingar'. The Ingar being the folk of Ingwe, 'The Foremost' (Vinyar Tengwar 34)

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Edit: 'Gold of the Ingar' is based on texts in Morgoth's Ring however, as distinct from a look at Inglor at the time JRRT wrote the chapter where Gildor appears. On the name change, from the 'new' texts in Parma Eldalamberon 17:

'Certainly Finrod must become name of Felagund instead of Inglor, NOT of his father since 'Finrod' never left Valinor and could not have a 'Sindarized' name.' JRRT

JRRT then notes that the names of Finwe's sons were Kurufinwe, Nolofinwe and (Sara-,) Arafinwe -- adding that the mother-name of Arafinwe was Ingalaure (because his hair was golden, even more golden than the Vanyar). It is further noted that as originally written the mother-names of Arafinwe were 'Laurin or Ingalaur' the latter changed to Ingwelaure -- altered to Ingalaure. For an earlier reference to Inglor in Etymologies see root ID- *ídí 'heart, desire, wish' and etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

I do note that the feminine patronymic -iel (Q. -ielle) came to have a general and very common meaning 'maiden'

I also could swear, but I can't find it, that in early drafts of the Lorien material Legolas is referred to as go-Thranduil. Of course, at the time both Leggy and the Galadhrim were conceived as being Ilkorins, so that doesn't help a lot.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

Not in 1938, no

I can't seem to find 'go-Thranduil' in the one volume index to The History of Middle-Earth anyway -- 'go-Thingol' isn't noted there but that appears in an Etymologies entry. Go-Feanor and go-Maidros are noted in the index (hailing from HME I) for examples. Maybe it was missed? It seems you have checked the text already however (I didn't check the text myself).

[Gwathagor]

I don't find Gildor problematic, personally, since the elves as a whole play a minor role in the War of the Ring and even, more specifically, in the story (LotR) itself. Legolas accomplishes the least of all the members of the Company. Elven-folk as a whole, with their power and significance fading, are relegated to the role of counselor-along-the-way, rather than warrior and day-saver.

[alatar]

It's funny that this thread is prominent now as, last eve, I just finished reading (rereading) that part of FotR. And in this reading, it did strike me as odd that Gildor does little to aid Frodo, or at least it seems that way. What does (or could have) Gildor and his wandering company do to help the Ringbearer?

• They provide safe lodging the night that they all meet. Remember that one of the Nazgul was hot on Frodo's path when the elves showed up. If Frodo, Sam and Frodo did not travel and stay with the elves that night, just what would have happened?

• The elves provide sustenance - food and drink - that aid not only the Hobbits' physical bodies but also their spirits. After a draught of the liquid placed in the waterbags, the Hobbits are ready for an army of Black Riders. Was this the courage that Frodo sought?

• The next day, the Hobbits are hunted by but not captured by the Black Riders. Was this due to some help by Gildor? Farmer Maggot's dogs may have had some unseen help, and who knows what kept the Black Rider from finding the Hobbits until they were safely across the Brandywine?

On the other hand, Gildor and company seem a little to unhelpful, in retrospect. It works when you don't know what the Black Riders are, but after you realize that these are the Nine, you'd think that Gildor could have done more overtly.

But I'm no elf - even if I say both yea and nay.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ok, at http://sindanorie.lima-city.de/RS&TI&WR.htm there's more info than my feeble linguistic ability can absorb (note at the bottom of the page). In pertinent part, we learn that

At the same time {i.e. the Gnomish Lexicon] -ion is the genitive plural of consonantal nouns, e.g. glôr 'gold' > glorion....

By the time of The Etymologies Noldorin, Ilkorin and Doriathrin are the languages of the Celtic branch. Both -on and -ion occur as agentive suffixes, as in #faron 'hunter' (SPAR-), Dúrion/durion 'a Dark-elf' (DOƷ-, DÔ-, MOR-) or else form names as Mirion 'ordinary N name of the Silevril (Silmarilli)' (MIR-), Gelion 'merry singer', also a river (GYEL-). Probably associated with this is the patronymic suffix -ion < YŌ, YON- 'son'.......

There's also Erchamion, expressly Noldorin (=Ilk Ermabuin).

But only in part. There's much, much more. Through all of Tolkien's *constant* changes of mind I think what I've learned is that Tolkien happened to like the sound of -on, -ion as an ending, and then had to explain all the different ways he used it! There is also a whole stack of geographical -ions: Eregion, Dorwinion, Dorthonion, Erydwethion, etc.

[Galin]

I was going to try and suggest a place-name 'explanation' too (stretch!), but the patronymic is still the prime choice in my book. Tolkien could be quite creative if he really wanted to wriggle out of something, but (correct me if I'm wrong) he had not published that an Elf named Inglor was Felagund (in any case).

Readers got to know 'Inglor Felagund' through what are essentially drafts, and the texts in PE17 show us once again that Tolkien could be quite fluid with his nomenclature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But, again, how would you interpret Erchamion? 'Son of the empty hand?' I don't think so. Sounds agental to me.

I don't think Inglor was published in the LR- but Finrod (=Finarfin) was.

[Galin]

But I have no reason to think that 'One-hand' is the name of some Man that could be Beren's father, and Beren himself becomes 'One-handed'.

Yes, I agree we could wriggle (as I say, even try a place-name). If we didn't know, Arathornion might not mean 'Son of Arathorn' technically, but it would likely be my prime choice for 'Aragorn Arathornion' if I had an idea that Arathorn was one of the West-men.

Point taken that it's not the only possibility. I would agree with that; it never was really, but the patronymic got and gets my vote if I had to choose.

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. I don't think we can resolve this question.

I still think Inglorion is most likely a patronymic (for the reasons Galin stated). Maybe Tolkien intended to have Gildor to play a more important part in the story than he ending up doing. Then later he saw no need to correct the name, because "Inglor" was no longer Felagund and "the House of Finrod" need not (I think) imply a blood-relationship.

[Galin]

I would agree Nerwen that perhaps Tolkien saw no great problem from a revised context point of view. I do think 'House of Finrod' implies family ties. In the entry for root NÔ- from Etymologies:

noss clan, family, 'house', as Nos Finrod House of Finrod.

In PE17 NO- is still a root for 'generation, people, folk, large group regarded as of common ancestry.' It seems possible that Nos Finrod was used by some in Middle-earth for (essentially) Nos Finarfin, considering that Finarfin stayed in the West.

Since I'm in Etymologies, under root ID-

'Q. indo heart, mood; cf. Indlour, Inglor (Indo-klár or Indo-glauré). N. inn, ind inner thought, meaning, heart.'

Inglor could mean 'gold-heart' according to this -- or 'splendour-heart' 'N. poetical claur splendour, glory -- often in names in form -glor' (Etymologies KAL-), and thus possibly 'gold-hearted' with Inglorion.

Though again there seems to be a later interpretation that fits with the linguistic history landed on for The Lord of the Rings (meaning Inglor as a Sindarization of Ingalaure). In PE17 indo appears, seemingly 'mind, region/range of thought, mood' from IN-I-D 'mind, inner thought'

[William Cloud Hicklin]

whereas in late writing 'heart, mood" is Ore.

[Galin]

It seems that at the time of writing The Lord of the Rings (or at least in the time 'surrounding' this general period) Inglor Felagund had a wife and children, and in notes to the QS manuscript even Gil-galad was his son. In early workings of Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age Galadriel was a daughter of Felagund the fair (and the elder sister of Gil-galad).

The conception that Inglor had no wife arose in the early 1950s in any event, in The Grey Annals. Even after this statement in GA, Tolkien, perhaps mistakenly, gave Felagund a son, Artanaro Rhodothir ('Orodreth'), but then noted that Finrod 'had no child (he left his wife in Aman)'. And in an isolated note dated 1965: 'Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in Exile.'

I don't think Tolkien had even printed the name Inglor* (as a name of Felagund) in the first edition, and so readers would not think of Gildor as Inglor Felagund's son even in the 1950s. It's really a case of readers being shown (by CJRT) certain draft texts, otherwise Gildor as the son of (some Elf) named Inglor is not problematic.


Galadriel55's post in 'Ever wonder...' inspired me to come back to this.

Thus one a side note I'll add: not that Galadriel55 said otherwise, but Fingon does not really mean 'Lord of Hair' as I take the explanation. As a Sindarin name it might be interpreted 'Hair-shout', as JRRT notes in the essay (the word cáno meant 'commander' in Quenya), but even the Quenya name Findecáno didn't really mean 'Hair-commander' as much as it was the word 'commander' with fin(de) added on -- as an echo of an ancestral name -- 'and if this was also specially applicable it would have been approved as a good invention.'

And it was suitable for Fingon, since he wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold. In short, the 'meaning' of the name elements together is not really the point with respect to Fingon... if one is wondering why such a odd seeming name exists that is.



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*even if he had, there could be more than one Elf named Inglor, just as there seems to be more than one Elf named Rumil in The Lord of the Rings.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

This was rather beside the point when I started this thread eight years ago, about whether Gildor was negligent or prescient in how he helped Frodo, and that his assistance was a great deal more than met the idea and critical to the story, but no, Gildor is not a decedent of Finwe. Don't be silly. Aside from the Line of Elros, only Elrond, Galadriel and their children have such lineage in Middle-Earth. That Gildor was of high rank among the people of that House is indisputable. As for the other elves in his wandering company, I think it is fair to say that whatever he said or did, it was in keeping with the other members, who were no more or less selfish than he, but there is still the practical point of their being a probably not well-armed group of elven people.