Frodo or the Ring?

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1725</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Gandalf was also often concerned about giving his location (and thus possibly his purpose) away with the use of his power.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 307</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Upon closer inspection, Gandalf seems to have been eagerly awaiting Faramir's return, presumably so that he could learn some firsthand news about Frodo and the Ring.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1727</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I was refering to Gandalf's use of his power, not the location and purpose of Frodo. I was supporting your previous statement.


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 1/12/01 5:50:44 pm

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 309</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Yes, sorry. My comment was aimed at Mithadan and used to back up my assertion that Faramir wasn't springing anything new on the G-man by telling him about Gollum &amp; Frodo. Let there be peace between Underhill and the Wight (at least in this thread... today... for a few minutes). <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 493</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Gandalf was not waiting for Faramir to return with news of Frodo, but rather for information regarding movements of the Enemy and out of concern for Faramir, both as on a personal level, as well as from the perspective of wanting a great captain to assist in the upcoming battle. He was utterly surprised to find that Faramir had run into &quot;another halfling&quot;.

Gandalf as Manwe? Highly doubtful. Gandalf was Manwe's &quot;Steward&quot; in Middle Earth for Manwe, the &quot;king&quot; of Arda. Manwe was lord of the winds. Could he not have deflected the snowstorm from the Redhorn Pass? Could the Balrog have slain Manwe? What of JRRT's writings concerning the need to &quot;increase&quot; Gandalf's power upon his return to Middle Earth? Would Manwe need such an increase in power? I could continue along this vein, but will not.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 316</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I think the nutty theory of Gandalf as Manwë is distinguished -- and elevated -- from hypothetical ramblings like Bombadil = Eru in this way: it is a possibility suggested by the prof himself.

Now, let me clarify. This is just a theory I'm testing out -- I'm not even sure I believe it myself. I'm defending a rather outrageous notion for the sake of stimulating conversation, and also because the idea seems to contain at least a germ of the truth. However, please feel free to abandon the thread if my boorish suggestions are neither stimulating nor intriguing, but only offensive to the sensibilities of a more informed Tolkien scholar.

Having said all that, I will offer a brief rebuttal if I may.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The board is set, and the pieces are moving. One piece that I greatly desire to find is Faramir, now the heir of Denethor.

In the night he [Pippin] was wakened by a light, and he saw that Gandalf had come and was pacing to and fro in the room beyond the curtain of the alcove. There were candles on the table and rolls of parchment. He heard the wizard sigh, and mutter: &quot;When will Faramir return?&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Gandalf seems unusually anxious for Faramir to return. I think we can discount personal concern as the reason for his eagerness. Gandalf had a fondness for Faramir, to be sure, but here's a key attribute of Gandalf's personality: he's not sentimental. His concern for his friends doesn't keep him from sending them into battle or cause him to fret over them when they may be in danger. Gandalf sounds like Faramir's girlfriend if he's only hoping he comes back so that he'll know he's safe.

As to &quot;wanting information regarding movements of the Enemy&quot;... I don't think that accounts for his eagerness either. Look -- he seems almost to doze through Faramir's accounts of military matters, which seem in any case of little interest:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Removed a little upon the other side sat Gandalf in a chair of carven wood; and he seemed at first to be asleep. For at the beginning Faramir spoke only of the errand upon which he had been sent out ten days before, and he brought tidings of Ithilien and of movements of the Enemy and his allies; and he told of the fight on the road when the men of Harad and their great beast were overthrown: a captain reporting to his master such matters as had often been heard before, small things of border-war that now seemed useless and petty, shorn of their renown.<hr></blockquote>Are these &quot;small things of border-war&quot; the information that Gandalf has been staying up late pacing in his room hoping to hear? No. And he sits up and grips the arms of his chair, I might argue (I have), not out of &quot;utter surprise&quot; but because Faramir has finally gotten to the part that he's been eagerly hoping to hear about.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf as Manwe? Highly doubtful. Gandalf was Manwe's &quot;Steward&quot; in Middle Earth for Manwe, the &quot;king&quot; of Arda.<hr></blockquote>But is not Manwë Ilúvatar's steward in Arda? This gives interesting possibilities of meaning to Gandalf's line to Denethor: &quot;For I also am a steward. Did you not know?&quot; <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Manwe was lord of the winds. Could he not have deflected the snowstorm from the Redhorn Pass?<hr></blockquote>Maybe. But remember that it turned out to be necessary to pass through Moria to pick up Gollum. As to Manwë being the lord of the winds, remember this, from Silm: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> All swift birds, strong of wing, he loves, and they come and go at his bidding.<hr></blockquote>Who's always hitching a ride from eagles? That's right -- the G-man!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Could the Balrog have slain Manwe?<hr></blockquote>As has been pointed out innumerable times, Gandalf was only figuratively &quot;slain&quot; by the Balrog. Having taken on human form and self-imposed limitations on how much power he could exhibit, I think it's entirely conceivable that Manwë/Gandalf could have been slain by the Balrog.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What of JRRT's writings concerning the need to &quot;increase&quot; Gandalf's power upon his return to Middle Earth? Would Manwe need such an increase in power?<hr></blockquote>But &quot;increased&quot; by whom? And sent back after &quot;death&quot; by whom? Not the Valar. In the Gandalf=Manwë scenario, Gandalf becomes even more of a Christ-like figure than I argued he might be in a previous thread. Ilúvatar's favorite son, sent to earth, his power and glory veiled in a humble aspect... I'm still of the mind, and haven't yet heard convincing arguments to the contrary, that the restraints on the power of Gandalf weren't &quot;real&quot; restraints, like some kind of spiritual restraining-bolt, but were more like a sort of &quot;code of honor&quot;. Manwë had seen before that attempting to sway the people of M-E by force and displays of power and majesty had only resulted in great sorrow. So he returned with a revised agenda and modus operandi, as I have quoted above in a previous post. After his &quot;death&quot;, Ilúvatar picked him up, dusted him off, and sent him back with the go-ahead to reveal a little more of the power that had previously been kept hidden.

Okay. So it wasn't so brief.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/16/01 11:40:23 am

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Hey! Turns out I am the beer-swilling redneck cousin who crashed the wine-tasting party at Tolkien Manor!

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 516</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I gave it a day hoping someone else might weigh in on the Gandalf is Manwe theory.

The desire of some people to place Valar in Middle Earth during the Third Age is beyond me. It runs contrary to what we know of the Valar; that they are aloof, rule from a distance, and are loath to involve themselves directly in the unfolding of the Tale of Arda. For Manwe to come to Middle Earth in the guise of Gandalf would be an abdication of his role as the Elder King. Further, Olorin was known in Valinor. He was a Maia. Surely Saruman would have noticed if a previously unknown Maia abruptly appeared as an Istari. The tale of his selection as an Istari is told in UT and he is referred to in the Valaquenta. Why would JRRT waste his time writing a &quot;cover story&quot; for Gandalf? And why would he hide Gandalf's &quot;real&quot; identity at the end or in his voluminous papers which became HoME?

Strangely enough, your theory is difficult to rebut, simply because it is entirely speculative and lacks concrete support. Manwe and Gandalf are not seen together in LoTR but this proves nothing. The same logic was used to support the Tom Bombadil is the Witch King theory on the Tolkien Sarcasm Page. Why should Gandalf be anyone but Gandalf? Why should Bombadil be anyone but Tom? Next? Glorfindel is really Orome? Radagast is a cross dressing Yavanna? (OF course, Sauron really IS Michael Jackson)

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Sauron really IS Michael Jackson<hr></blockquote>
I think Sauron would be insulted (on many levels).

MJ thinks of himself as bad....
while Sauron has no such delusional illusions.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 273</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Weigh in? I do not believe in such silly ideas. Manwe in ME? Does it go along with the song in the Ainulindalë,I don't think so. If I believed that, then Tom Bombadil would simply have to be Ilùvatar.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 331</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

It appears I may have to fold, since my theory du-jour seems to inspire only disinterest and exasperation in equal measures. A few points, though, since I can't resist:

I am generally in agreement with you, Mith, when it comes to wacky theories about X actually being Y. I would never have dreamed of advancing a Gandalf=Manwë theory on my own if the prof hadn't floated it first. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> And why would he hide Gandalf's &quot;real&quot; identity at the end or in his voluminous papers which became HoME?<hr></blockquote>I have two answers to this question.

The first is that prof seemed to take great delight in not revealing all of his secrets. In my estimation, this is one of the reasons why the books remain so absorbing and interesting. More than just holding things back, JRRT didn't even shy away from allowing disinformation to pass uncorrected. For instance, it's widely believed in the Tolkien community that trolls are &quot;corruptions&quot; or &quot;mockeries&quot; of Ents. However, in one of his Letters, Tolkien suggests that this is not true, but only Treebeard's (uninformed) opinion. In the same paragraph, JRRT mentions that even though he, the author, knows who the wizards are and where they came from, he has seen fit not to share the information explicitly with his readers. I think this is exactly the kind of thing he would always want to leave shrouded in mystery.

The second answer is, who says he didn't give some clues as to Gandalf's identity?

JRRT suggests the theory that Gandalf is Manwë.
JRRT suggests that Olórin may be just an &quot;incognito&quot; used by Manwë.
JRRT suggests that Gandalf &quot;wove the web&quot; that led to Sauron's eventual downfall.
JRRT does not unequivocally dispute that these theories may be true.

As far as I can discern, both the essay on the Istari (where this outlandish theory is first proposed) and The Quest of Erebor, which deeply hints that Gandalf &quot;wove the web&quot;, were written prior to publication of RotK. This would seem to dispel arguments that such issues were addressed as a reaction to reader curiosity.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Surely Saruman would have noticed if a previously unknown Maia abruptly appeared as an Istari.<hr></blockquote>Conversely, if Olórin was known to Curumo, then isn't it odd that he should be surprised to learn after some years in Middle-earth that Olórin had the greater power?

The Valar sent the Istari with the consent of Eru. It is presumed that they were all Maiar -- however, this sentence:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For with the consent of Eru, they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men...<hr></blockquote>...doesn't rule out the possibility that some of the Istari were Vala. In fact, the account you mention of the choosing of the Istari seems to be one of the least reliable texts in that section of UT -- a hand written note that is summarized by CT, complete (or rather, incomplete) with portions which were indecipherable and &quot;illegible&quot;. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> MJ thinks of himself as bad....<hr></blockquote>MJ is bad. He's a bad, bad boy.

And with that I'll fold up my tent and patiently wait for the next interesting thread... (Unless somebody wants to add a reaction that I can't resist responding to!)






</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

But Curumo did have the great power Mr. Underhill, I believe it said so in Silm or LotR that when they first came over the sea Curumo had the greater power. Only after Olorin came back to ME did he have power greater than Curumo. And would it make sense for Manwe to be a subordinate to Irmo. Irmo wasn't even an Aratar.

Another point would be the chapter on the Istari in UT. Olorin is talking to Manwe, hard to be Manwe if you are talking to him.

Hmm, I think there is more evidence to disprove Manwe being Olorin, but I don't feel like digging up quotes and listing texts.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 520</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I am very definitely missing something. Where does JRRT say or imply that Gandalf is Manwe?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 389</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

The idea presented is based upon an incomplete examination of a citation (where JRRT refutes the idea immediately afterward) in UT The Istari (located shortly before the alliterative poem concerning Dagor Dagorath, if that helps).

I applaud the effort in the correlation that was given; but...

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 390</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I should place an addendum to the previous post:

I think the idea may have actually been somewhat valid at the time LOTR was written; or at least if not exactly, then something very similar. It was only later when writing in detail after the fact that the origin is examined and that the playful concept of the possiblity of Gandalf\Manwe is discarded in favor of the servant of explanation. The statement directly refuting this is expounded upon later in even greater detail concerning motivations of the Valar and can be found in HOME vol. X Myths Transformed(surprise surprise).

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 333</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Underhill hastily re-pitches his tent and hangs his shingle: 'The Debater is IN'

Actually, I guess this topic is pretty much spent. But you know me; I never know when to stop!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The idea presented is based upon an incomplete examination of a citation (where JRRT refutes the idea immediately afterward) in UT<hr></blockquote>Well, not completely incomplete. I just didn't find the refutation to be all that convincing. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was.&quot;

&quot;I think it was not so...&quot;<hr></blockquote>I think it's interesting that JRRT rather coyly brings the idea up only to (sort of) shoot it down again. I think this falls under the &quot;Methinks he doth protest too much&quot; clause of the debate code, or maybe I'm thinking of &quot;No doesn't always mean no.&quot; I wonder who the first person narrator is supposed to be in this fragment?

You're right, though, that other parts of the collected writings that make up this section of UT contradict the proposed theory. I don't have HoME X and have only read parts of it. My HoME kung-fu is very weak. I'll take your word for it, Saulotus, that there's more evidence to contradict Gandalf=Manwë there, too.

On the other hand, this sort of raises a &quot;chicken or the egg&quot; kind of question: if a conception is more or less true at the time of writing, but then later changes, which is the more accurate?

To Durelen: Cirdan upon his first meeting with Olórin &quot;divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest.&quot; Saruman was apparently perceived by most (himself included) as the most powerful Istari at first, but other parts of UT describe in detail how he soon came to realize that Olórin had the greater power and wisdom, and came to hate and fear him (not to mention secretly emulate him) because of it.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/18/01 1:35:43 am

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 369

Ok. I'm a bit too late to dive in here, still:

Originally Posted by Mr Underhill

members of their own high order

Maiar are considered to be creatures of the same order as Valar, only lesser in power. So by member it may be meant Vala or, equally, any given Maia as well

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Oh come on Rust. Communism totally SUCKS. And don't confuse communism with socialism. They're hopelessly intertwined now but they're very different ideologies. Refer to my last post for the reasons.


Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 375

???

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 335</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

....Double ?? Looks like a posting misfire.

To respond to your post, HI, I only meant to point out that the line cited doesn't contradict the idea (and, indeed, seems to imply) that at least some of the Istari could have been Vala.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 286</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe something Tolkien said just because it didn't convince you.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 529</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

While I tend to agree with your position, Durelen, I admit that I find it hard to accept that orcs are not corrupted elves although in HoME 10 JRRT suggests they were either corupted men or beasts bred with Maiar and men.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 380


JRRT himself was intending tofind out rather than to make up. So, as he himself was not easily convinced about what he was writing down, why should we?

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 288</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

But all we can do is speculate, find the best possible answer and think to ourselves, &quot;Hmm, that seems right.&quot; Just like Tolkien would probably do. No one knows exactly what Tolkien was thinking. It is just hard to say that anything is anything when we don't really know. Ok, I see that you can find it hard to believe that Gandalf was not Manwe, but can you see that I believe that Gandalf was just Gandalf.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 386

That's why it's great. ME is real, unlike all the stuff I read before and after Tolkien. It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what really happened. IRL you never get any pure information, and always have to calculate for yourself what is more plausible.

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 103</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Oh yes. *grins sheepishly* that doesn't belong here. At all.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 337</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Durelen, let me clarify. I meant that Tolkien wrote the &quot;refutation&quot; in a way that certainly left room for doubt and uncertainty. And why would you leave room for doubt and uncertainty if you weren't hinting that what you were &quot;refuting&quot; might actually be true? It's not like Tolkien wrote, &quot;Durelen wrote to me from West Virginia asking if Gandalf is Manwë, but I can tell you right now that that theory is absolutely false!&quot; and I'm saying, &quot;Well, I'm just not convinced by the prof on this one.&quot;

I doubt the item mentioned is just one of Tolkien's notes; otherwise, why would he say things like, &quot;I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter...&quot; Tolkien liked to write as if he were a character in ME. I wish I knew more about the fragment I'm quoting from. Is the &quot;I&quot; supposed to be Frodo? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what &quot;really happened&quot;. <hr></blockquote>HI, you're so right! That's why we can have so much fun debating controversial topics here on the Downs.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/19/01 11:25:23 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 406</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien liked to write as if he were a character in ME<hr></blockquote>
Except in personal essays where he examines his own construction.

JRRT wrote as the 'Translator' who had discovered the RED BOOK. This is self-evident and expressly stated in Hobbit and LOTR, (especially so in the Prologue and Appendices) as well as the Introduction to AOTB, and thus is essentially a character who has stepped into his own creation.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

this monthly theme is a great thing indeed. I came to this topic through main page and I really enjoyed rereading this discussion. (good old times when I was not so busy and had time for more serious posting, not only meddling with quote game).

And I have found some point in my own posts on the subject I left unanswered. when I said Frodo was white-on-black in Mordor and grey in Ithilien, I meant his mental picture contrasted with the mental picture of his surroundings. I need accurate wording. Ok, to quote Mithadan, I can hear swords sharpened as I type - the land itself on ME has it's mentality (remember "rocks listening" thirstily the sound of laughter, never heard in mordor for ages?), which can be detected visually while wearing the ring of power - Sam sees the grey rocks near Cirith Ungol as being darker and solider when he puts on the ring. And Frodo, being (in general) person of a good will, though not faultless, appeared grey in Ithilien, where land's mentality was not so dark (yet, for Sauron's will was not imposed on it for long) than in his old place in Mordor, where the land itself became like it's master, black. simple visual effect - my grey macintosh may appear white in the dark, yet under the sun it is grey.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

actually I'm inclined to agree...everything is comparative...the lamp that's so bright at night is nothing compared to the sun's light

It is obvious that it was the ring that spoke the words. First of all if you think of the psychological way, Frodo would not want to think about the fire or even bring the subject up. Second, I remember that the ring glowed or something like that. Why would that happen at the same time Frodo spoke?

[The Barrow-Wight]

Because Sam was seeing things (see my previous comments AND articles on the site).

[KayQy]

Well, I'm going to go back down that wonderful digression about Gandalf=Manwe, just because I had gotten so deep into it before the subject returned to Frodo.

if Olórin was known to Curumo, then isn't it odd that he should be surprised to learn after some years in Middle-earth that Olórin had the greater power?

Perhaps Curumo had the greater power (or was allowed the greater use of it) when they were first sent over the Sea; but after turning to the Dark Side (sorry), and his army being defeated, he had lost a great deal of his power. He, of course, would still be convinced that he was the more powerful, until the new and improved Gandalf showed him how much things had changed.

Another point would be the chapter on the Istari in UT. Olorin is talking to Manwe, hard to be Manwe if you are talking to him.

I was going to say this myself. Is this some previously hidden trick of the Valar, to be more than one person?

It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what "really happened".

Only this is a lot more interesting than the history that we have to learn in high school. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

And I guess I'll go ahead and mention that I think that the Ring spoke through Frodo, or that Frodo spoke under the influence of the ring. It had so much control over him by that time it would actually be difficult to separate them completely.

[Orald]

I think your post makes much sense, KayQy, what happens to Curumo would be nearly the exact same thing that happened to Morgoth, but on a smaller scale.

[Kin-strife]

I'm sorry, I've just noticed this Gandalf=Manwe thread and want to contribute.
I made a point before in the "image of Eru" thread that the role Gandalf plays in LotR is similar to that played by Christ in the bible. The way he came (incarnate) in a weak and humble manner to unite all people in love and understanding, the way he works without instigating fear or oppresion to alert people to the evils of the world and the way he died only to come back in greater splendour. I think that the Gandalf/Manwe thing in UT may have been influenced by Tolkiens realisation of the similarities between the two (assuming they were accidental, which I believe they were). But I don't think he meant it as a truth. Tolkiens stories are supposed to be just second handed accounts and interpretations for the most part so why not site other (slightly extreme) beliefs for a better rounded picture. I think that's all that was.

[Rose Cotton]

You people are getting totally off topic. This thread,as you call it(I'm new at this) is about Frodo and the ring. Not about who Gandalf is.

[HerenIstarion]

well, that's what makes discussion here so fascinating [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. As Bilbo used to say:

You step into the Road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to

But that what makes it interesting, I fancy

[Rose Cotton]

Sorry I was being rude.So was it Frodo or the ring speaking?

[HerenIstarion]

well, not so horribly [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. as for who spoke, you must decide for yourself, as there (up in the thraed) opinions were devided in two at most equal parts with small variations. Only JRRT himself was authority enough to define, and we are left to speculate upon the subject (what we do with greatest pleasure)

[Rose Cotton]

I've got it! The answear! I was just reading the part look at this:

...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. OUT OF THE FIRE there spoke a commanding voice."Begone and trouble me nomore! If you touch me again you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

Read that. It says Out Of the Fire the voice spoke not Frodo. The Ring spoke. It sayed if you touch me. It ment if you touch the ring. I think the ring never talked before because it didn't have enough control over Frodo yet. Maybe because it was a ring it neaded to borrow Frodo's voice! I gotta go. I'll add more later.