Were Balrogs winged?

[Mithadan]

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Re: Balrogs

Perhaps I am putting words where they are not. But speculation is fair game.

But concerning &quot;metaphoric&quot; wings, you are omitting words where they are. JRRT says &quot;his wings stretched from wall to wall.&quot; Absent some clear evidence to the contrary, the position of those who say Balrogs do not have wings amounts to stating that JRRT did not mean what he said.

Fair for you to say the Sil. does not state that Balrogs flew over Cuivienen. That is true, it does not. Fair for me to say LoTR says Balrogs have wings. That is also true, it does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Balrogs

Definition:
METAPHOR - An implied comparison between two objects without the use of “like” or “as”.

source - http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htmwww.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htm</a>

Omitting nothing, the good professor may have metaphorically linked the two passages concerning wings. Then again, he may not have <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 268

I'm dragging in citations from my own post, and don't you dare to accuse me of selfplagiarizm!

Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, the same abyss, mind you where

So was not an abyss too narrow a place for a greatest of the eagles? Or was he a size of, say, chickenhawk and Glorfindel that of a chicken? Does anyone implies that Thorondor was mountainclimber in disguise who climbed down the abyss with a rope, put the rest of Glorfindel into a bag and climbed back? They are wrong wrong wrong

Taken from the post #11 from One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs (by Mithadan)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[lindil]

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vings

Well, theLotR says it[ WINGS]
I believe it and that settles it for me. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I have seen [at the white council ] extreeeeemely long and convoluted arguments for both sides that left my eyelids drooping -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently. One cogent argument re: 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.
We may rest assured however that the MOVIE will eternally decide it for us!

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently.<hr></blockquote>
You must have missed my analysis on the text re: flaming aspect then.

It WAS a different approach.

<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.<hr></blockquote>

I kind of have these type of thoughts about trolls....


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: vings

*sigh*

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: vings

How about we say that some did and some didn't, but Gothmog and the Moria one will have to have no wings or it is all silly. and don't say that this theory(my 3rd or 4th on balrog wings I believe) is stupid. It could hold a lot of weight, the only reason they are balrogs is because their fea defines them as such. they are maiar choosing there own hroa, so that says that they can have wings if they want them or not, depending on what they like.

</p>

[lindil]

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vings

Very good point Dureleen.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: vings

Indeed, Durelen makes a good point. Balogs are spirits of fire, maiar of a certain type. Whether they form a body which has wings may, to some degree, be personal choice (or a choice imposed by their master). In the discussion above, I, on occaission, limited my comments to the Moria Balrog. It is possible that the Moria Balrog had wings while others did not. The reference to the Silmarillion which I quoted does not necessarily mean that all the Balrogs rose up and went over Hithlum to come to Lammoth and save Morgoth. However, there is no textual evidence that some Balrogs did not have wings; only inference from, for example, the duel between Glorfindel and the balrog in the Echoriath where both fell and Thorondor recovered the Glorfindel's body. Another inference could be that the Balrog's wings were damaged in the duel.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Grey Fool]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Honestly.

There's nothing quite like a debate for debate's sake, is there? OBVIOUSLY JRRT conceived the Balrog as a winged creature - it says so in FotR, as has been quoted already. The writing need not be interpreted to mean anything other than it says.

As to the purpose of the wings, now there's another matter. It seems likely to me that the Durin's Bane had wings not really for practicality's sake; after all flying around inside a disused mine would be pretty hazardous for anyone that size. I reckon they were put there to fit the Balrog to the commonly perceived image of a Demon or Devil, in other words the wings are the part that most readers are familiar with and can relate to from mythology and so on. Tolkien was adept at drawing on innate images to act as a hook in his writing: wings, pointed ears, sharp teeth, eyes that glow, blah blah etc etc.. all classic popular images, put in as helpful guides. (I wonder if he had any idea about the amount of trouble they would cause in the future?)

To continue briefly in this literal vein - Perhaps the Balrog of Moria is the definitive Balrog, and any other sort of outdoor specimens are just mere offspring or pale shadows. It would make sense for the outdoor Balrogs to have wings for them to get about etc, especially if they wanted to stay out of sight of other ground-dwellers. Natural selection would imply that for a mine-dweller to have wings and an outdoor Balrog to be wingless, would be a bit backward. Possibly Natural Selection has nothing to do with it in this case; perhaps any outdoor Balrogs would have been wingless mutants, outcasts, rejects or something. Whatever they were, they kept themselves extremely quiet at some most exciting times <img src=indifferent.gif ALT=":/"> .

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

I think the whole point is that its NOT obvious unless taken in an absolute literal way. But the English language is full of figures of speech, of which the good professor was a master (as great writers tend to be). Which, when and where has already been discussed above.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

Three more things. The first is that Balrogs could be looked at as being like dragons. There were dragons, and there were winged dragons. Another thing that I didn't think of before that actually helps my opposition. The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon. The third thing is Tolkien intended for ME and everything else he created to not be an allegory, and to not represent anything here on Earth today. So wouldn't you think that Balrogs were not meant to look like devils.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Honestly.

Just because JRRT denies allegory doesn't mean he would not clothe a classic demon with classic demon's wings. He does operate from or draw upon existing mythology in his work. Whether the Moria Balrog's wings are made of flesh and bone, shadow or tissue paper, JRRT names them &quot;wings&quot;. Whether all Balrogs had wings cannot be resolved, but the one example we have is winged.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[red]

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Were Balrog's winged?

Yes and no.

Ha!

&quot;Go not to the Elves for council, for they will say both no and yes.&quot; <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304

No comments about tissue paper

But here I met the phrase I can't leave unanswered

by Durelen (Orald)

The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon.

I'm awfully sorry, but that helps your opposition not. Even despite round earth theory and a different cosmogony, which become predominant in JRRT's late writings, one can't use wings to get to the moon, simply because there are such things as 1.air of breath and flight and 2. Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure . I doubt that by flesh here's meant human flesh only, which means, that if balrogs were to scorch the moon, they must have approached him bodyless, and therefore, not winged.

Unaided by Whom is another question. If not Eru himself, one needs help of the Valar obviously


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.

[Orald]

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Re: Were Balrog's winged?

It doesn't really matter what I said anyway, I am pretty sure I was wrong to begin with. Weren't they spirits of shadow that attacked the moon and not spirits of fire.

</p>

[Grey Fool]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Figures of speech

It seems more likely to me that the &quot;figures of speech&quot; of which the prof was so fond, tend in those places where Balrogs are mentioned, to actually imply flight rather than discredit it. One example that you're no doubt totally familiar with has to be:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband... Balrogs lurked still... and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Needless to say, there is no evidence of wings at this stage in the development. On this point I hold no dispute. However, they &quot;arose&quot; somehow. Later in the Silmarillion, there appears a brief reference to their speed capability:
[qoute]&quot;Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain.&quot;[/quote]
This passage is interesting in that it hints at two elements simultaneously (a device which appears frequently in the Silmarillion); the swiftness of the lava i.e the strength and power of Morgoth's determination to destroy Beleriand for his own means, compared with that of your average Balrog. Also, at Cirith Thoronath there is reference to: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Sadly, no explanation is given as to how they both fell to ruin. The image of a Balrog waiting beneath the shadows of the highest peaks of the Crissaegrim or thereabouts to do battle WITHOUT WINGS however, is less probable than the winged version, surely <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> .

I still hold that Tolkien used various well-known images, in particular derived from popular myth and legend, to depict his arguably original inhabitants of Middle-earth. It is nigh on impossible to invent a creature that doesn't resemble one already known, however remotely, because the simple fact is that our imagination is, very basically, made up of mixtures of things that have had an impression on us in the past. The idea is for an author to exploit his limitations by tuning into the psyche of the masses and providing them with new forms of what they are already familiar with. This creates rapport and hopefully sells books. Tolkien uses this all the time in his books. The similarities to our own world are many and various. The ORIGINS of his universe are unique, as are the stories set therein. Our fascination starts with the unknown territory that he presents, which leads us into an assumed world other than our own. We are inspired by his ability to suspend disbelief; to leave so much hanging in the balance that we gradually cease to question the structure that surrounds us in the stories. From my personal need to indulge in fantasy and to delve into alternative realities, I openly accept what is laid down before me in words. But at the same time I question the origins of some of the elements of Middle-earth as they were when they first arose in the mind of their author. And I see no reason to suppose that Balrogs (for example) are not an ascendant of another far more familiar form of Daemon, seen in certain medieval architecture and gothic renderings of satanic scenes. After all, the man was brought up and indeed lived with strong Catholic beliefs and interests. There is no threat to the viability or originality of Middle-earth, because the intricacy of the structure derives from the imagination of a well-educated and open-minded individual. As with all works of great beauty that I have so far discovered, the works of JRRT cause echos of things in me that I believed were long buried or forgotten. It's those familiar images and underlying emotions that are the indispensable and undying part of the books.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

Great points, Grey Fool. I agree that phrases and words used by Tolkien are suggestive of a winged creature. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It [the Moria Balrog] came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge.<hr></blockquote>These phrases conjure images (at least in my mind) of a winged beast. But arguing Balrog wings is like arguing politics or religion. The chances of converting someone from one side of the argument to the other are slim to none.

BTW, Mithadan, I thought the Silma ref about Cuivienen was some sharp reading. Surely Balrogs are among Morgoth’s oldest servants.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

To counter Mithadan's point. When I read over the section in Silm. about the Sun and the Moon I found that the spirits assailing Tilion, were spirits of shadow, not fire, and could easily traverse Ilmen. So I think that those creature that flew over Cuivienen probably were not Balrogs, and were the same spirits that attacked the moon.

</p>

[Raw]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

I haven't read all the posts so my question may be answered alredy. But i think that the Balrogs was winged, maybe not all of them... And i read in Silmarillion that Sauron was a Balrog???

/RAW

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

No Sauron wasn't but he was powerful nonetheless

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Whoa!

I passed up 200 posts and didn't even realize. I must be posting like mad.

</p>

[Raw]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Sorry, i was wrong about that, i read wrong. But i found a new name for Sauron, Gorthaur. Don't know if it's the same as in english.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Yeah, I think that is his name in Sindarin.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Some may groan at the resurrection of this thread, but I wouldn't do it if a new lead hadn't come to light. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him.<hr></blockquote>This is one of JRRT's comments on a &quot;storyline&quot; for a proposed animated film from around 1958. The reason I quote it is that the storyline does seem to have included some detailed descriptions of settings, characters, and events from LotR which JRRT took pains to correct. Since the prof makes no corrective notes on the Balrog's <u>appearance</u>, it makes me wonder if we might be able to get something approaching a resolution to this question -- if copies of the storyline still exist. Does anyone know anything about this &quot;storyline&quot; or if it is available from any source?

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

And who is Z?

Now I expect that the balrog in the upcoming movies to not make any noises, because Tolkien said so.

I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Z = Morton Grady Zimmerman, the scribbler who drafted the proposed storyline. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it. <hr></blockquote>Don't hold back! Let's hear it.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Whoa! Letters!

Some have suggested that the quote cited above is &quot;out of context&quot; and that JRRT is criticizing Z(immerman if I recall) at Disney for suggesting that the Balrog was silent by nature. Supporting this position is LoTR itself. Look at the section of &quot;the Bridge of Khazad-Dum&quot; where the duel on the bridge is described. It says:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Letters is a great source of information but we don't have the correspondence that JRRT is answering so we don't always know the context. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it apparently does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 3/12/01 8:54:14 am

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: Whoa!

That sounds like a rather strained argument. It seems to me that Zimmerman had concocted some sort of dialogue between Gandalf and the Balrog, and this is what Tolkien was referring to. Judging from Zimmerman's other errors, he seems much more likely to have gone for a sneering, talkative Balrog (complete with <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil"> &quot;Muahahahaha!&quot; evil laughter) than an eerily silent one. That point aside, I take it that the aforementioned storyline no longer exists?

Also I noticed a reference to a Tolkien Society publication from 1997 that had a long article about Balrogs. Has anyone here ever read it or heard tell of what it contains?

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 570
Re: Whoa!

Surely this quote has come up before, somewhere, but I haven't seen it brought up in connection with this debate and I didn't see it in a quick scan back through this thread:

Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.

From RotK, Appendix A, Pt. III

What say ye non-wingers to this quote?

[Inziladun]

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Re: Whoa!

Flying could simply mean it fled the scene in a quick manner.After all,Gandalf said
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Fly,you fools!&quot;<hr></blockquote>
when ordering the Company to get out of Moria.
But this is not proof that Balrogs didn't have wings.Maybe some did and some didn't,as was mentioned here earlier. After all some dragons had wings (Smaug) while others did not (Glaurung).

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/14/01 5:43:19 pm

[Orald]

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Re: Whoa!

I agree with Inziladun on the quote. It seems like it only meant going with speed.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Eldar14]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

This event where the Balrogs &quot;flew&quot; might also have been at a time when the Balrogs could transform (like their non-evil counterparts, the Maiar*). Maybe they, like Sauron, lost the ability to change their form. So possibly all of the Balrogs look different, depending on what form they were stuck in. (Some with wings, some without, etc.)

*I think that's right. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Fingolfin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> umm...

-------------------------------------------------------
&quot;His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.&quot;
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&quot;It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall&quot;

In these two passages the term &quot;wings&quot; is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work. I submit that due to a lack of a term synonimous with &quot;wing&quot; tolkien used it as a metaphor and a simile instead of using further and more similes because of the shere lack previously stated.

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Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot. The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness.

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Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.Tolkien is pretty explicit that Dragons could fly (some at least) why would he be vague as to the abilities of Balrogs?
I don't think he would it seems to me the very nature of his works are vivd well placed texts completely out of line with the Balrog/Wing concept.
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Origionally Tolkien had no intention of using the term wings of any sort in describing the Balrog of Moria, but the reason he did was to make it seem larger and more dreadfull then it would have otherwise looked, as supported by these two quotesThe treson of Isengard, The Bridge pg 199 Houghton Milton Company and pg 202 Houghton Milton Company:



quote:

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There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'

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What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.



quote:

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Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.

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what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

There are more quote in TTOI but I don't have time to post them

</p>

[Imbear Nolwehin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> That's it

Hantalyën, Fingolfin.
Finally, after reading each post, your response closely puts to word the same objections I felt. Particularly, as a student of language, I thank you for the fine definitions and shown-use of simile and metaphor. The paragraphs speak to eachother, as you show, and they communicate Power and Impressiveness.

Now, of course, a reality-check. The true nature of the Balrog is easily analyzed from where we sit reading. However, the folks on the Bridge in Moria were 'seeing' a Balrog for the first time - could it not be posited that to the physical senses the enormity and the shadow-denseness roiling about the beast would be perceived as wings behind and above the central shape? In the dark, all things are possible, especially when the Balrog was working terror and confusion magic - who knows what Hobbits will see.

Imbëar

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 668
Re: umm...

Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot . The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness.

As readers of HoME know, the conception of Balrogs changed drastically over the course of Tolkien's writing life (e.g., from vast hosts of them to "no more than seven" ever existing), so referring to older versions of texts is next to pointless. But since the last part of that first sentence sounds like a challenge, how about this from HoME X?

Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/18/01 5:32:32 pm

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 669
Re: umm...

Here's something new -- at least, I've never seen this bit put forward here on the Downs. Here's a quote from FotR:

`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.

Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again. There was a tumult of many voices far away, cursing and wailing in the darkness, and then silence. Neither shaft nor cry came again from the east that night.

After a while Aragorn led the boats back upstream. They felt their way along the water's edge for some distance, until they found a small shallow bay. A few low trees grew there close to the water, and behind them rose a steep rocky bank. Here the Company decided to stay and await the dawn: it was useless to attempt to move further by night. They made no camp and lit no fire, but lay huddled in the boats, moored close together.

'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'

'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.

'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria – the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was –' Then he paused and fell silent.

Okay, the point should be obvious -- why should Gimli say the Nazgûl's winged steed reminded him of the Balrog if the Balrog had no wings? Frodo's confirmation that it was, indeed, not a Balrog lends creedance to the idea that it might have been a (flying) Balrog.

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm...

It was the shadow that reminded Gimli of the Balrog, not the flying or any wings the creature may have had.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 670
Re: umm...

Then why would Frodo say, "It was not a Balrog."? Wouldn't it be obvious that it wasn't a Balrog if the Balrog had no wings?