Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 378</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom is what i want him to be

Congrats on your 200th post. I (sniff) recall when you were (sniff sniff) just a pile of bones (choke). How time flies (sob).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 201</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom is what i want him to be

I know... one minute they're an animated skeleton, the next thing you know, they're a Wight and moving out to get their own barrow. *sigh*

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1627</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom is what i want him to be

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> LOL ! Now that was a good one!

You're all growing up so fast *sob*

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 567</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom is what i want him to be

And I never even got to be a pile of bones <img src=frown.gif ALT="">

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom is what i want him to be

Yeah I like my nick too. Who really cares whether Balrogs have wings or not? Doesn't make a difference beyond a point. Hey you guys like Gandalf the Grey better or Gandalf the White?

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

What or who Tom &quot;is&quot; is an interesting speculation. The thought that he might be Aule is an interesting idea though I think if a comparison is to be made to the Valar, he has more in common with Yavanna than anyone else. However, the Valar are creators and Tom is not (in any overt way). Perhaps another way to look at Tom is to consider not who he &quot;is&quot; but what he &quot;represents&quot;.

A very revealing point about Tom is the reference made to him in the last moments of the Lord of the Rings. When Frodo looks out on Aman he recalls the imagery of the dream of rain in the house of Bombadil and likens the vision to the view of the immortal lands before him. Why the house of Bombadil? Why not Elrond's house or a vision in the mirror of Galadriel? This doesn't seem to be a merely convenient arbitrary reference.

Frodo's departure from Middle Earth is an important moment. Not just in the obvious sense of importance to the plot but also in terms of the role of Bombadil. No mortal (except Tuor who was only half mortal) was ever granted passage to Aman. Although it is never said that Frodo actually became immortal, the mere granting of this permission gives him a position unlike all other mortals. Here is the link to Bombadil. Bombadil is presented as a mortal. He looks like a man, he has yellow boots, a big beard, and a comical manner; yet he is obviously not mortal. He is somehow both, possessing an awareness of the rigid spiritual truths of the Valar and Eldar but also of ordinary human life, humor, regret and sadness. Frodo perceived this (though in reference to Goldberry) when he felt something about her &quot;like the elves, yet less keen and lofty, nearer the mortal heart&quot;. It is also exemplified in how Tom responds to finding the brooch in the Barrow and notes that &quot;fair was she who wore it long ago&quot; but became silent and would say no more.

The second-born (including hobbits) have not the luxury of the eldar. They feel the shadow of the brevity of life over them. Bombadil is a reconciliation of the ancient disparity between elves and men; a mortal who is also immortal and has thus a more intimate understanding of men than the elves or the Valar which know only everlasting life. For this reason he freely counsels the hobbits which the elves are, at best, reluctant to do.

As an aside, Arwen could be seen as &quot;Bombadil in reverse&quot;. She is as one who was immortal but who is no longer. Thus she is brought (tragically) to a similar understanding. Yet for both Bombadil and of Arwen, the outcome is compassion. For if Bombadil's gesture was to bring the hobbits back from death in the Barrow, Arwen's was to say of men before she went to die alone, &quot;as wicked fools I scorned them...but if this is the gift of the one to men then it is indeed bitter to receive.&quot;

</p>

[onewhitetree]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 28</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Well, I just have to reply in defense of the ever-absent Gothmoga, that Balrogs do NOT have wings. There, it's settled.

Sell crazy someplace else...We're all stocked up here. <a href=http://pub23.ezboard.com/bminasmorgul>Minas Morgul</a></p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 99</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

you are so true.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 639</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

It seems to me that the real question is 'Who is Goldberry'. Although I know what Tom is, is there anyone who can answer that question?

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 291
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

One of the lesser spirits of Ulmo' order, seemingly (who else may claim the name of a 'river's king' or what not's daughter?)


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 492</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I almost (but not quite) regret re-awakening this thread. However, something occured to me which does bear upon Tom's nature. After Frodo puts the Ring on during the attack at Weathertop, it is told that Frodo was able to &quot;see&quot; the faces of the Ringwraiths because, with the Ring on, he was partly in the &quot;spirit&quot; world (JRRT uses the term &quot;wraith world&quot. Later, at the Ford of Bruinen, Frodo is able to see Glorfindel &quot;as he is on the other side&quot;, as a &quot;white figure that shone&quot; because he was partially in the spirit world due to the Morgul wound. Gandalf also privately comments that Frodo might become as a glass filled with clear light for those who can &quot;see&quot;.

Bombadil is one of &quot;those who can see&quot;. When Frodo put on the Ring, Bombadil could perceive him. Thus Bombadil was one who lived simultaneously in the physical and &quot;spirit&quot; world. Some of the &quot;mighty of the First Born&quot; had this power. The wraiths lived artificially in this world due to their rings. Otherwise, the ability to perceive those who were hidden in the spirit world were the greater and lesser Ainur.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 252</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Are you saying that the valar and the maiar and the greatest of the eldar could see both the living and the dead. And by this saying that Bombadil is nothing more than a spirit?

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 253</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Oh, and belated congratulations, on becoming a spirit of the mist

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 494</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Thank you.

No, while the &quot;spirit&quot; world is undoubtedly inhabited by the dead who have resisted the summons to Mandos (for elves), it is more the &quot;unseen&quot; world of the fear which the Ainur and to a lesser extent the elves inhabit at the same time they inhabit the physical world. The only spirit type beings identified specifically in JRRT's mythos (other than unhoused elves) are the greater and lesser Ainur (the Valar and the Maiar). I number Tom among this group. Could there be spirits other than the Ainur created by Eru either before Arda or as a consequence of its creation? Possibly, but JRRT does not identify any. To me, the &quot;spirits&quot; Morgoth used to animate Dragons, etc. were just lesser Maiar, whose power were added to via Morgoth. If he can be explained at all, and he need not be, Bombadil is a Maia who entered Arda at or shortly after its creation but chose not to live or work with the Valar. Instead, he rejoiced in simply watching the tale of Arda unfold.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1737</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

So the spirits of the barrows, the wights, were the spirits of fallen elves? Not men?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 254</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Simply stated Melkor was the first ainur. I think not a maiar or valar, but something along those lines. Good point BW.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 496</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Ron, no. The wights were different. Victims of necromancy by the King of Angmar, an apt student of Sauron.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I thought that J.R.R.T explained that Tom was left unexplained so that he could be whatever you wanted him to be.
I know that takes all the fun out of it but I think he envisioned discussions like this when he did that.
The explanation was in The Letters Of J.R.R.Tolkien I think.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 497</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Mecor, you're quite correct and this has been pointed out above. The issue here has become more along the lines of can Tom be fit into JRRT's mythos and, if so, where? I've never been really concerned with Tom's nature, he is whatever he is. But it is fun to debate this question.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 96</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Mithaden tells all of us inexperienced newcomers that. He's quite right actually. Hey y'know maybe not having Tom in the movie is a good idea. If hardcore Tolkien fans can't reach a decision as to who Tom was, the moviegoers will be absolutely baffled.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 17</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I think they should put him in the movie any way, it would be fun to see what the Tolkien virgin would think about Tom Bombadil.
Somebody told me they thought that Bombadil was just a very old Elvish type person who was so inherently Good that the evel of the ring had no power over him.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 258</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

HA!

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 248</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
no TB

Not having the master in the Movie is lameness of the...
Guess I'll save it for the movies forum <img src=wink.gif ALT="">



</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 317</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: no TB

Fans might be a bit... er... confused by that scene after the barrow where Tom instructs the hobbits to caper about on the grass in the nude... but perhaps this line of discussion is for the movie forum after all...

</p>

[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 92</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: no TB

That was the only scene in the book I really never cared to visualize.

Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

These are excerpts of a discussion I had once upon a time with Finduilas...

http://pub8.ezboard.com/ffinduilasst...c&amp;index=16Bombadil</a>



------------------------------------------------------------
I had a thought, that I'm not sure is supportable, but this is how it seems to me.

When reading LotR to my wife, and coming to the Bombadil part, a notion struck me. It is one thing to read erudite dissertations on the subject, it is another for the actor/reader to portray the role.

How do you play an enigma? I took the few clues Tolkien granted, and this was my answer, and it felt right playing it.

Tom is no master of weather, Eru surely is.

Tom is no Aule, fascinated with how things are made and work.

Tom is not Orome either. He seems to land-bound, and for a very long time, too.

I think of Tom Bombadil as a sort of unfallen Adam. What might Adam have been like if he had not fallen and remained a strong and vital being? I guess I'm saying that to me, Bombadil is like a first-created man, who never fell from purity and never tasted death. A combination of childlike delight and joy with ageless wisdom and simplicity.

Such a fellow might have very great power over all around him, and yet be finite and perishable if enough power were brought to bear against him.




(When I read him, he sounds like Santa Claus! Just comes out like that. )




The more I've thought of it, the more sense it makes to me.

It just feels right to me. One could argue that this fits with Tolkien's Christian worldview.

If an enigma has a solution, it also has a point.

Was Tolkien making a point in any case? Everything else that he did, seemed to be thought, and thought, and rethought over years. Was Bombadil an exception to this?

If not, then what was his point to having the enigma of Bombadil? We know how he used it in his plot, but beyond that, why the mystery? And would Tolkien set us an unfair mystery, one without a solution?

But I don't know that one can necessarily connect the dots and say: Bombadil is Adam Unfallen.

But he seems that way to me!




-----------------------------------------------------------

Upon further reflection, I still like this idea, which has the virtue of being neither provable nor disprovable! (Another virtue is that I don't know that anyone else has thought of it!)

You who know more may say better, but does it fit in with the scheme of things that Bombadil was unsullied by Melkor? Thus, he might be mortal in the sense that he could be killed, but immortal in the sense that he never came under any dark curse and never needed Illuvatar's Gift...

All idle speculation, but I enjoyed it.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 394</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Your point on Bombadil being like an Adam actually makes a lot of sense. After reading Athrabeth, he could have been one of the Fathers of Men that did not harken to Melkor in the beginning, he could have fled to where he is in LotR. In the histories of Men it was said that they were originally very powerful and long live creatures(how long lived I don't know), but Melkor turned them from Iluvatar and then Iluvatar took his gifts away from them. If Bombadil was one of these Fathers of Men, he could have fled from Morgoth at the first and maybe kept his inherent abilities.

The only problem I see with this is that Bombadil was the first: before the elves; before the Dark Lord Melkor, the first Ainu to reach Ea; before everything. So unless the time for the arrival of Men changes to before everything else, then I doubt he could truly be like Adam.

</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 7</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Tom Bombadil was... Tolkien!
Who others?
Tolkien himself wanted to enter in his work...
Believe me!

Marco
"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them. In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
http://www.lumezzane.com/pergessle </p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 157</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Cryptic

Tom Is. Or Is Tom? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 396</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Cryptic

Tom is, silly person. Everything exists, it isn't the other way around like most philosophers want you to believe.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 162</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Resemblance.

Durlen, you SO remind me of Howard Roark. And the so-called philospohers of Ellsworth Toohey.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 409</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Resemblance.

<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

I have no clue who that is. But if someone told you that nothing is real, nothing actually exists, would you believe that person?

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 174</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Whoa

But what if everything only Is because you think it Is? What if we're suspended in a different reality where nothing is everything? And everything is nothing? What if we're just part of someone's else's dream? ARGH! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 414</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa

Perhaps we are in another reality. But nothing cannot be everything and everything be nothing as long. And it is going to be pretty difficult to convince me that everything is nothing, since nothing is something.

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 181</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Philosophy

Hmm. Nothing is something and yet it does not exist, for it is nothing; the something in nothing is but the name we recognize not what it is; but it is not, for it is nothing. I'll stop doing this now, It's confusing me.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Time present and time past
are both perhaps present in time future,
and time future contained in time past.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
10/10 for confusability. Eliot, btw.

- enep</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
What Tom is

I'm confident he is a near death experience. So depending on your point of view on death and the afterlife (or lack of)he is either a spirit guide, or an hallucination.

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 183</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Welcome!

Welcome, Binram Adasia! May the Road rise up to meet you on your travels! May the Wind blow at your back! And all those other greetings. Excellent first post. However, we still need an answer to the question: Is Tom? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 418</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Welcome!

Yes, welcome Binram Adasia. Hopefully you check out some of the other threads, most threads don't normally dilapidate like this.

</p>

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 185</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hehe

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> I wouldn't go as far as to say dilapidate, but some threads do go a bit...off topic. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 169</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hehe

Welcome newcomer!
Durelen: he's the guy from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead.
Everything is something to us right? As long as something is real and important, it doesn't matter whether we're in one dimension or a suspended reality.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>