*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin* - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tar Elenion · 06-19-2001, 08:04 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

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Quote:

<<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>>

I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar.
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Yes, in Annal 1099 (HoME 10): at the end of the battle Morgoth 'sent forth a host of Balrogs and they assailed the standard of Manwe ... they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword' until Morgoth alone was left (which implies all were slain suggesting re-embodiment of some, though perhaps some were left elsewhere (Angband), I would have to research it more). This is referred back to when the note on '3 or 7 Balrogs' is discussed. It leaves one to wonder what JRRT might have changed this to. Perhaps changing it to 'demons' might not be inappropriate.

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Quote:
<<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>>

That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept.
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I understand your point on Rog, though I disagree.

The later attestations seem to be only Ecthelion and Glorfindel. But that would leave finding something for Rog and his folk to kill. I don't recall that Rog is singled out for actually killing a Balrog but rather he and his men drove in to the Balrog host and slew many. Perhaps mentioning the 'Boldogs' again might be appropriate.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains

**lindil** · 06-21-2001, 06:25 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

On Boldogs and Balrog's
I agree, I don't see any need [yet] to mention the # of balrogs but using seven as a working model for Gondolin seems to make sense.

I have to admit that while the boldog seems a suitable replacement, it is rewriting in a way we have yet to contemplate on. we would not be giving creature xyz an updated name we would be changing the type of creature. I think if we had more info on the boldog's and even a hint somewhere [maybe it does exist and I've missed it?] that JRRT wanted to solve some of the balrog problems by replacing them w/ boldogs we would be in business, but, short of that we are left w/ 'use or loose' balrog situations.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

Tar Elenion · 06-21-2001, 05:04 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I understand what you are saying about the Boldogs, and dont really disagree. However I dont know whether it 'really' would be replacing one creature with another. The LotR Balrogs were radically different than the pre LotR Balrogs that made it into Tales that JRRT did not update (or did so only in brief notes). It is possible that it could be considered a name change. The Boldogs are minor Maiarin spirits similar to but weaker than the Balrogs. I dont think you have missed anything about them. I posted the I posted the Myths Transformed quote above but see MR page 418 for it in fuller context. This is the closest to a 'hint' that exists to my knowledge.
It is just something for everyone to think about.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains

**lindil** · 06-22-2001, 01:45 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

It might work Boldogs that is. But I think that JRRT's comments on X fall a little short of the kind of green light we need. I propose we look at it again with maximum scrutiny when we get to the appropriate section in FoG.

I am about to set up the New Translations from the Elvish Forum <img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> so Pengolodh, Tar Elenion, Jallanite and Aiwendil look for a password in your email . Anyone else who may be interested can email me or better yet - post in the introduction thread.

I see the 2nd [TFE] forum as having to functions at this point although this is cert. open to group review.
1> a place to store base texts and our finished and working projects.
2 > a place to conduct anonymous votes on any give subject by poll w/ out having to let the poll function loose here in the Gen Silm project forum.

all discussion of the texts can still happen here so all can follow along.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him.

jallanite · 06-24-2001, 05:58 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

I am responding here to three issues that have been raised, and have tried to deal with them exhaustively.

On Boldog:

All the material is in MT, text 10, Orcs. Tolkien is speculating that Orcs were derived from Men,and says they were by nature short-lived. This then seems to bring up a difficulty in his mind as his earlier conception of Elvish origin might make Orcs immortal in the same way Elves were. (That the goblins of The Hobbit actually recognized Orcrist and Glamdring from Gondolin is perhaps the only published text that indicates this, but Tolkien certainly had much in his mind that he either did not put on paper or has not survived.) Tolkien then tries to account for apparently long-lived Orcs:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.^4 Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.*^5

****[footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.

4**Cf. text IX, p.*414: 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes'; also text VIII. p. 410.

5**The footnote at this point, stating that ' Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War'. and was perhaps not a personal name, is curious. Boldog appears several times in the Lay of Leithian as the name of the Orc-captain who led a raid into Doriath (references in the Index to The Lays of Beleriand; he reappears in the Quenta (IV.113), but is not mentioned thereafter. I do not know of any other references to an Orc named Boldog.<hr></blockquote>The Quenta reference is:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Boldog captain of the Orcs was there slain in battle by Thingol, ...<hr></blockquote>It would seem that Tolkien in his mind saw Boldog playing a greater part in the tale than in the extant texts, presumably as a leader in earlier battles between Elves and Orcs, and this part was either never actually written down or has become lost. But if Orcs are short-lived, how could this be? Tolkien then speculates that Boldog may have been a title not a personal name, or may have been the name applied to Orc-formed Maiar. Or is that last note actally saying that Boldog was the name of a particular creature who was one of the Orc-formed Maiar. This interpretation agrees less readily with the wording but more readily with the logic.

This speculation would be unnecessary if in legends of the First Age more than one Boldog appeared at a single time. Multiple Boldogs in one tale, at least by that name, did not occur and should not be made to occur, even if Boldog were to be accepted as name for incarnate Maiar in Orc-form and not some other sort of title. Possibly also it was the personal name of a particular Maia in Orc-form.

That Tolkien would have replaced some of the Balrogs in the "Fall of Gondolin" with "Orc-formed Maia" may be true. But would the Elves know an Orc-formed Maia from a true Orc? One could probably change some of the Balrogs into something like "Great Orcs" instead, if justification can be found to change them into anything. I don't believe the word "Boldog" can be used. (I know that we aren't to use asethetics for anything but very, very low-level choosing, but also I don't find it particularly effective to have Gondolin razed by an army of bull-dogs.)

The House of the Swan

In the BoLT version of "The Fall of Gondolin" there are several references connecting Tuor to the swans:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now on the quiet waters of Mithrim over which the voice of the duck or moorhen would carry far he had fared much in a small boat with a prow fashioned like to the neck of a swan,<hr></blockquote>Later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This by slow labour he adorned with fair carvings of the beasts and trees and flowers and birds that he knew about the waters of Mithrim, and ever among them was the Swan the chief, for Tuor loved this emblem and it became the sign of himself, his kindred and folk thereafter.<hr></blockquote>On his entrance to Gondolin Tuor claims:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am Tuor son of Peleg son of Indor of the house of the Swan of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, ...<hr></blockquote>Within Gondolin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's ring was wrought on his shield;<hr></blockquote>Of the name of Tuor's "house":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and the bodyguard of Tuor, the folk of the Wing, was accounted the twelfth.<hr></blockquote>The phrases "folk of the Wing" and "guard of the Wing", "my men of the Wing" are also used later in the account.

It is not clear then what Tolkien means by "House of the Swan". It might be that he changed his mind in the midst of writing, as he was wont to do, and decided that the Swan was a token of Tuor's ancestral lineage, not a symbol he himself had adopted. Or it might be that it was the custom to name oneself fully by giving the name of one's father and grandfather, and then the "House" that one belonged to. Since Tuor lives solitary, not connected to any other "House", he belonged then only to his own House, and since his last permanent dwelling was ornamented with carved swans, he might well say, in an attempt not to appear altogether rustic and uncouth, that he is of the "House of the Swan".

"House" does not imply a necessary blood relationship. In Gondolin Tuor has his own House of the Wing to which many Elves belong. In the later "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Voronwë claims to be of the "House of Turgon", though he could not be of very close kin to Turgon. In LR Gildor Inglorion of the "House of Finrod" may be only declaring that he belongs to a House named from Finrod, perhaps mostly the remnant of Finrod's House in Nargothrond, or a House whose core was made up of Elves who had formally dwelt in Nargothrond, not that he is of close kin to Finrod.

In any case, no later reference indicates any connection between the symbol of a swan or swan's wing and Tuor's ancestry.

"Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" drops all reference to the swan-prowed boat and to Tuor's building a house with swan carvings. When he sees the swans that he will follow to his destiny, we are told rather: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now Tuor loved swans, which he knew on the grey pools of Mithrim; and the swan moreover had been the token of Annael and his foster-folk.<hr></blockquote>When Tuor enters Vinyamar and sees the arms and shield with a swan's wing thereon, he says:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'By this token I will take these arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear.'<hr></blockquote>Tuor takes the swan's wing on the shield as an omen from his own particular love of swans, because they were the token of Annael and his foster-folk to whom he belonged, and because (I would assume) he has been led to them by swans.

If "House of the Swan" is let stand, then it must refer to Annael and his people, and to Tuor insomuch as he was one of those people and may still feel so. Tuor seems to be one well suited to solitary life, but it would be reasonable that eventually he would indeed have gone to the south in search of Annael and his people had Ulmo not intervened. We might even reinstate the building of Tuor's house, though now inland by the marshes of Linaewen rather then on the coast at Falasquil, and let "House of the Swan" also stand in relation to this house as I have indicated might have been Tolkien's meaning.

Or we might change the phrase to "fosterling of the House of the Swan", or something similar.

Changing it to "House of Hador" is a likely substitution. At the time of the primitive "Fall of Gondolin" no such House existed, and nothing indicates what Tuor's affiliaton was with other Men, but in the later background and genealogy it would somewhat surprising for him not to announce that he was of the House of Hador.

We could also simply drop the phrase as probably no longer valid.

I don't see any of these solutions as necessarily more right than another, which is unfortunate. Perhaps one here goes by the rule of don't change anything you don't have to change, and so leave it untouched for the reader to misunderstand.

Thorondor on the Iron Mountains

That Thorondor (for so I shall name him here ignoring the variation in texts) dwelt on Thangorodrim, or at least on the Iron Mountains from which Thangorodrim jutted out, is an early concept. In BoLT 1, chapter IV "The Theft of Melko":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and that was most bitter when Sorontur and his folk fared to the Iron Mountains and there abode, watching all that Melko did.<hr></blockquote>In The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 8:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and sends them under their king Thorndor to dwell in the crags of the North and watch Morgoth. The eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people.<hr></blockquote>This account remains essentially the same through the texts of the Silmarillion tradition to the account in The Lost Road (HoME 5), VI Quenta Silmarillion, §93:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... had sent forth the race of Eagles. Thorondor was their king. And Manwë commanded them to dwell in the crags of the North, and keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë; and they hindered the deeds of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>There are no later emendations of this text. But none of the texts in this line give Thorondor's actual dwelling place.

That Thorondor was not dwelling on the Encircling Mountains from the beginning first appears as part of the Silmarillion tradition in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 15 telling of the founding of Gondolin after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thorndor King of Eagles removes his eyries to the Northern heights of the encircling mountains and guards them against Orc-spies.<hr></blockquote>The passage is later expanded in ibid., III The Quenta, §15 in the Q II version:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In those days Thorndor King of Eagles removed his eyries from Thangorodrim, because of the power of Morgoth, and the stench and fumes, and the evil of the dark clouds that lay now ever upon the mountain-towers above his cavernous halls. But Thorndor dwelt upon the northward heights above the Encircling Mountains, and he kept watch and saw many things, sitting upon the cairn of King Fingolfin.<hr></blockquote>Here explicitly re-emerges the BoLT tale that Thorondor dwelt on the Iron Mountains, indeed, as we are told for the first time, on Thangorodrim itself.

Soon after this Tolkien decided to place the foundation of Gondolin long before the breaking of the Siege, and does so in a brief note under year 50 in "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand". No mention of Thorondor or the eagles are made at this point (and perhaps in so brief an annal we should not expect them to be). All later tales of the foundation of Gondolin are expansions of this annal showing no influence in their wording from the earlier accounts of its foundation after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

A mention of Thorondor and his eagles might have been lost for this reason. There is only the inconclusive mention in "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin": in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12 "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.<hr></blockquote>But the presence of eagles near Gondolin was always an important feature, and one might expect Tolkien to use a word such as "dwell" rather than "came" and to introduce their guardianship of Gondolin if he thought they had their eyries there at that time. This is the latest account of the founding of Gondor and a very finished and polished text.

So if they were not dwelling in Crissaegrim then, when did they begin to dwell there?

That Thorondor took the body of Fingolfin to a mountain-top above Tumladen is already found in the "Lay of Leithien" Canto XII, and is taken up in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, 9. His presence at the battle is unexplained; but if he was then thought to be dwelling on Thangorodrim it does not need to be. Thorondor carries of Fingolfin's body to a mountain-peak which by chance is close by where Gondolin will be founded by Fingolfin's son Turgon many years later.

Perhaps to reduce this element of chance in the The Lost Road (HoME 5), Quenta Silmarillion, §147, Thorondor is protrayed as dwelling in the Encircling Mountains at the time of the battle and only coming to the battlefield late after Fingolfin's death:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of Gochressiel, and he stooped upon Morgoth, ...<hr></blockquote>This account of the death of Fingolfin is the last one Tolkien made. Christopher Tolkien provides the final revisions to this part of the Silmarillion in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 15 "Of the Ruin of Berleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin". The only pertinent emendation is a manuscript change of Gochressiel to Crissaegrim which is taken up in the typescript Christopher Tolkien calls LQ*1. Christopher Tolkien writes of the typescript in Morgoth's Ring in his introduction to Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems virtually certain that it was made in 1951(-2).<hr></blockquote>This material was then retyped as QS*2 about 1957.

However Christopher Tolkien notes in his commentary on the material in this section in The War of the Jewels that much of the correction here is very casual. In particular:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The only alterations that my father made to the passage in LQ*2, however, were the replacement of Gumlin by Galdor and Haleth by Halmir*** thus retaining the long since rejected story while substituting the new names that had entered with the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West. This was obviously not his intention (probably he altered the names rapidly throughout the chapter without considering the content in this paragraph), and indeed he marked the passage in the margin with an X and noted against it 'This is incorrect story. See Annals and tale of Túrin'.<hr></blockquote>Of the date of the tale "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Christopher Tolkien in UT only says in the introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was finished but its publication doubtful.<hr></blockquote>In the Grey Annals §111 and §299 material in agreement with "Of Tuor" is inserted to replace older accounts. Presumably at the same time a new rider which Christopher Tolkien supplies in The Later Quenta Silmarillion as "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin" was created containing much of the same material word-for-word. This appears in its proper place in LQ*1.

So LQ*1 agrees in all respects with the revisions introduced in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" except for Voronwë's statement that Thorondor's folk "dwelt once even on Thangorodrim ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and dwell now in the Mountains of Turgon since the fall of Fingolfin." Considering the casual and incomplete nature of the corrections to LQ*1 and especially LQ*2 it is not now clear to me that Voronwë's claim can be disregarded. That is, in general LQ 1 and LQ 2 can be trusted for what they change, but not always for what they retain.

Conclusions:

*****1. I see no indication that the dwelling of Thorondor and his people on Thangorodrim was ever discarded.

*****2. It seems to me to be equally valid to remove "ere Morgoth grew so mighty" and "now" and "since the fall of Fingolfin" from Voronwë's speech, or to remove "from Crissaegrim" from the QS77 account. In the late LQ*1 and LQ*2 manuscripts Tolkien often did correct word-forms without properly correcting the story, while "Of Tuor" is a fully considered revision and a full account (not a summary) to which in every other respect all later material is brought into accord. (I may say that it also seems more sensible that Thorondor would fly a short distance from an eyrie on Thangorodrim or the Iron Mountains to the battlefield then all the way from Crissaegrim. What tidings would have come to him in time that he would know to make that flight?)

Altogether now: "WHO CARES?!!!!!!"

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/24/01 8:39:23 pm

**lindil** · 06-26-2001, 07:51 PM

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3 points

I think Jallanite that I agree w/ you on all counts. As for Tuor representing himself as of the House of Hador or as a fosterling of the House of the Swan - either can work as can deleting any reference. Since JRRT has him declaring himself which is common practice in M-E then retaining it in some form makes since. He was proud [rightfully] of both. Hador is most clearcut as there is no doubt he could have said that and on one other occasion I think he does in the hidden entrance saying something like 'I am told that these names [Huor/Hador] are not unknown in Gondolin.

Def. the kind of decision we can make as we go thru the text paragraph by P. or however we do it.

**lindil** · 07-02-2001, 12:01 AM

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time for Voting ?

Shall we make our first formal decision ?
I was reading over the earlier pages of this thread and saw that we will need to decide the Ork/Orc
question very soon into FoG, so i propose that we use our poll function in the TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH forum - just to get folks plugged in and rolling w/ the process. I will hold off - awaiting your replies.

-lindil

**lindil** · 07-06-2001, 07:40 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

hmm, maybe everyone [but telchar ]is on vacation?

I propose that we begin a few things w/ actual work on the texts:
I> begin inserting Jallanite's revisions into the Lost Tales version. then vote on the changes he felt were more questionable.

II> Work on the difficult interchange between the UT and LT/77/IV versions where Tuor gives his message and see's the city etc. I propose calling this section 'the changeover' or ' CO' as I imagine reference to it will occur frequently for awhile.

III> dividing the LT version into sections according to the previously given outline [pengolodh's ? Aiwendil's?] inserting the later material as needed, in rough form.

For each of the sections above 1-3 I suggest there be one or if more are interested 2 leaders , 1 of whom does the posting on the TFE forum [and will be the editor ] they will create the rough material that when finished we can all [sect. IV] make proposals and vote on ammendments.

IV> go over everything / a fine tooth comb as above.

Sound workable?
Better idea's?
Want to head up a section?

-lindil

jallanite · 07-08-2001, 04:46 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

 The Closing Portions
[Last revised 2001.07.13]

I've already completed most of the following before Lindir's last post with the idea of getting the easiest material out of the way first, so will post it now.

I am dealing here with the last part of "The Fall of Gondolin" material beginning just before Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog at the pargraph beginning "Now Tuor reached the Square of the Folkwell by a way entering from the north, and found there Galdor ...." The story in the later QS77 and almost identical Q30 is almost unchanged from FG from this point on, and passages where there are problems with great numbers of Balrogs or details of mechanical dragons are few and easily modifed if necessary.

This gets a very large section of the tale out of the way and allows concentration on the Huor in Gondolin section (problematic because of many changes in plot and underlying conceptions) and the early battle section (problematic because of multitudes of Balrogs and mechanical dragons).

Codes for my sources are as follows:
BoLT 1 The Book of Lost Tales 1 (HoME 1).
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
TE "The Tale of Eärendel" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §16 and from §17 in the Q2 version including later emendations as per the notes.
AB 2 "The Later Annals of Beleriand", written about 1936?, from The Lost Road (HoME 5). Unknown to Christopher Tolkien when he produced QS77.
Tuor "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin", written about 1951 from Unfinished Tales
Elessar The Elessar from "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT.
TY "The Tale of Years", (1951-52), from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11)
PG The Parentage of Gil-galad, a long note by Christopher Tolkien appended to SF, containing material by his father on this matter.
SF "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", Feburary 1968 or later, in the chapter of the same name from "The Peoples of Middle-earth" (HoME 13).
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

I also use the codes B! meaning too many Balrogs in the original text and D! meaning mechanical dragon in the original text to indicate this is the reason for editing a particular passage. If it is decided to keep some or all mechanical dragons or many Balrogs are in the end not felt to be a problem, then these passages can be kept unchanged.

To make references easier I have given each mini-discussion a code of the form FG-C followed by a two-digit decimal number. The C stands for closing. (Decimal numbers could be used for any problem passages I have missed, to keep the order.)

Each section lists the sources from which it is drawn in its header. The first source listed is the primary source, and the second is the secondary source. Main text is always from the primary source and inserted text from the secondary source. When there are more than two sources the codes given at the beginning of this post will be included at the beginning of each insertion.

I naturally do not include passages where the only change is regular normalization: change of a proper name to the latest form, change of a directional word, or changing quotation mark standards from double then single to single then double.

On the directional words: Tolkien reversed compass directions in the accounts following FG so that, at least in parts of the battle and in the flight of the fugitives, FG "south" must become "north", FG "north" must become "south", and FG "west" must become "east". These changes are to be made in the geography of Gondolin, Tumladen, and the Encircling Mountains everywhere in FG (other than in placing the Way of Escape to the west).

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Underline Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

I have replaced FG wording with that from Q30 as preferrable because it reflects JRRT's later thoughts, but do not otherwise change the text of FG for stylistic reasons. That is a totally separate matter from constructing a logically coherent base text from all sources.

 FG-C01 (FG, Q30, BoLT*1): B! [Addition by jallanite 2001.07.13: Possibly reduce the Balrogs here from many to one per Aiwendil's comments?]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... where a force of Or[k]s {led by Balrogs} came on them at unawares ...<hr></blockquote>or:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... where a force of Or[k]s led by a Balrog{s} came on them at unawares ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C02 (FG): B! Reduce Balrogs from many to one (rather than omit) as in the next paragraph Gothmog, lord of Balrogs, appears.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But now the men of [Morgoth] have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Or[k]s about them and a Balrog{s} upon one of them down all the ways from [sou]th, [we]st, and [ea]st, seeking the Square of the King.<hr></blockquote> FG-C03 (FG): Gothmog as Melko/Morgoth's son occurs only here and in two other places in BoLT, never later. Therefore delete the reference:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... even Gothmog lord of Balrogs{, son of Melko}.<hr></blockquote> FG-C04 (FG): B! <blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... that they swept again much of the square, {and of the Balrogs slew even two scores,} which is a very great prowess indeed;<hr></blockquote> FG-C05 (FG, Q30): There is no mention in any text later than FG that the prophecy of the North specifically mentioned the fall of Gondolin, naming the city itself.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered{,for such were the words of Amnon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C06 (FG): Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gling[a]l was {withered} melted to the stock and B[elthi]l was blackened utterly, and the king's tower was beset.<hr></blockquote> FG-C07 (FG, Q30): Additional details:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There came they at last lessened by wellnigh a tithe to the tunnel's opening <far beyond the walls and in the North of the plain where the mountains were long distant from Amon Gware[d]>, and it debouched cunningly in a large basin where once water had lain, but it was now full of thick bushes.<hr></blockquote> FG-C08 (FG): D!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.<hr></blockquote> FG-C09 (FG, Q30): The Way of Escape was closed according to "The Wanderings of Húrin", and therefore Christopher Tolkien omitted the mentions of it in the Q77 fall of Gondolin. But it is possible that, though closed from the outside, it was still able to be opened from the inside and that JRRT intended this. If the Way of Escape material is to be omitted then:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thereat {rose a dissension, for a number of ... sat at the outer issue that none came through. But} the {others} <fugitives>, led by one Legolas Greenleaf ...<hr></blockquote>If kept, then some changed wording and additional matter from Q30:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Nonetheless a large body of men and women {sundered from} <who would not come with> Tuor {and fared to Bad Uthwen, and there into the jaws of a monster who by the guile of Melko at Meglin's rede sat at the outer issue that none came through} <, but fled to the old Way of Escape that led into the gorge of Sirion and opened it anew, were caught and destroyed by a dragon that Morgoth had sent to watch that gate, being apprised of it by M[a]eglin. But of the new passage M[a]eglin had not heard, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband>.<hr></blockquote> FG-C10 (FG, Q30): Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the {plain was full of mists} <fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North, fell upon the vale in mournful mists>*** and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before{, and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king}. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined wall<; and thus was the escape of Tuor and his company aided, for there was still a long and open road to follow from the tunnel's mouth to the foothills of the mountains>.<hr></blockquote> FG-C11 (FG, Q30): Added description:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and very weary and cumbered with <many> women and children and <many> stricken men, ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C12 (FG, Q30): Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus were they come to C[irith Thoronath], which is a{n ill} <dreadful> place by reason of its height, ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C13 (FG, Q30): Insertion to be placed here if the Way of Escape passage is omitted, otherwise it has already been used:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet so many did the valour of the Gondo[lindr]im draw off to the assault ere the city could be taken that these were but thinly spread, and were at the least here in the [nor]th<, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband>.<hr></blockquote> FG-C14 (FG): The tale of why Thorondor hates Morgoth should be kept it as does not contradict anything else, but though it would fit in this place in an independent story of the fall of Gondolin, in the legendarium as a whole it should be related much earlier, possibly when Thorondor aids in rescuing Maedhros, but probably best just before he scars Morgoth and rescues the body of Fingolfin. Omit here:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then arose Thor[o]ndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not M[orgoth]{, for M[orgoth] had caught many ... a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not}.<hr></blockquote> FG-C15 (FG, Q30): Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and Thor[o]ndor himself, a mighty bird, descended to the abyss and {brought up the body of Glorfindel} <bore up Glorfindel's body>; ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C16 (FG, Q30): Rewording. Also FG claims Thorondor is still protecting the cairn and flowers still blow there. This might be allowed to stand on consideration that possibly that tale was written down at the mouths of Sirion before the breaking of Beleriand, but I think it is best to omit. Also Q30 adds here an account of how the eagles slew all the Orks, which I take to be an addition to FG, not a retrospective account of the Eagles' part in the battle. JRRT is explaining why no word of the fugitives came to the army or to Morgoth: because the Eagles pursued and slew all the Orks. Doubtless it was believed the Eagles alone were to blame for the slaughter of the Orks and Balrog and so no search was made for fugitives in that region.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... Tuor let raise a great {stone-cairn} <mound of stones> over Glorfindel just there beyond the perilous {way} <pass> by the precipice of Eagle-stream, and Thor[o]ndor {has} let not {yet} any harm come thereto, {but yellow flowers have fared thither} <and there came after a turf of green and small flowers like yellow stars bloomed there> and {blow} blew ever {now} about that mound {in those unkindly places} <amid the barrenness of stone>; but the folk of the Golden Flower wept at its building and might not dry their tears. <And the birds of Thor[o]ndor stooped upon the Or[k]s and drove them shrieking back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, and rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears.><hr></blockquote> FG-C17 (FG): An omission as we have just been told in Q30 that "rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and from the speed and wariness with which Tuor led them{; for of a certain Melko knew of that escape and was furious thereat}.<hr></blockquote> FG-C18 (FG): In the latest version of TY we find:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 510***Midsummer. Assault and sack of Gondolin, owing to treachery of Maeglin who revealed where it lay.
511***Exiles of Gondolin (Tuor, Idril and Eärendil &c.) reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril.<hr></blockquote>That the fugitives arrive at Sirion's mouth in the year following the sack of Gondolin first appears in the "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" and is never changed after. The much lengthier chronology in FG must be modified to fit:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But after {a year and more of} wandering{,} in which many a time they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks, {once more the summer came, and nigh to its height} they came at last upon a stream, and following this came to better lands and were a little comforted.<hr></blockquote> FG-C19 (FG): A omission required if the previous Way of Escape section is dropped:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now he led them even till they came down to Sirion which that stream fed{, and then both Tuor and Voronwë saw that they were not far from the outer issue of old of the Way of Escape ... who sundered aforetime from them at the tunnel-mouth}.<hr></blockquote> FG-C20 (FG): Omission of probably invalid material. Tulkas seemingly did not accompany the host of Valinor in the later versions of the War of Wrath and there is no indication that any battle occurred in this area in the later versions; indeed the whole tale seems changed. Also in the new version of Tuor's story he has not previously been near this region.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now here goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Pools of Twilight{, even where Tulkas after fought with Melko's self. Tuor had fared over these regions by night and dusk after Ulmo came to him amid the reeds, and he remembered not the ways}.<hr></blockquote> FG-C21 (FG, Q30): Add Elvish name:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet came they at last to the great pools and the edges of <Nan-Tathr[e]n>, that most tender Land of Willows; and the very breath of the winds thereof brought rest and peace to them, ... still in bitter thraldom in the Hells of Iron sang not, nor did they smile<hr></blockquote>[Added entry by jallanite 2001.07.13:
 FG-C21.1 (FG, Q30): Here might be inserted a slightly modified version of the Fragment of the alliterative Lay of Eärendel found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. This would appear as a retrospective summary of the story from the actual fall to this point in the tale. The actual suggested modifications are in a following post. This insertion was orginally suggested for item FG-C23, but there are philosophical and textual difficulties that prohibit this positioning.]

 FG-C22 (FG, Q30): Omission for chronological reasons and insertion from Q30.
[Addition to this post by jallanite 2001.07.13:
FG brings in here the decision to remove to the Sea, and then a festival before they depart. Q30 has a festival and then the decision to remove to the Sea, which we must follow as this is Tolkien's most latest ordering. But FG also brings in a notation as they prepare to depart and begin to hold the feast, that it is spring. This note about the season should appear first, and so is inserted here also, as was not the case when orginally posted]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****{Here they abode very long indeed, and Eärendel was a grown boy ere} <There>, when spring set celandine in the meads, <they made a> sad <feast in the memory of Gondolin and those that had perished, fair maidens, wives, and warriors and their king; but for Glorfindel the well-beloved many and sweet were the songs they sang.><hr></blockquote> FG-C23 [Material originally placed here has been slightly reworked and repositioned as FG-C21.1, jallan 2001.07.13.]

 FG-C24 (Q30): Immediately follows with omission to agree with Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And there Tuor in song spoke to Eärend[il] his son of the coming of Ulmo aforetime, the sea-vision {in the midst of the land}>.<hr></blockquote> FG-C25: Here should be inserted a version of the poem "The Horns of Ylmir" from Appendix 2 to Q30. Suggested form of the text to be inserted appears following in a separate post.

 FG-C26 (FG, Q30): Rewording:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned with a thirst the deeper for years of stifling{;}, <in his heart and in his son's. Wherefore {all that host} <the most part of the people> arose at his bidding, and {got them} <they removed> down Sirion to the Sea.<hr></blockquote> FG-C27 (FG, Q30): Omissions for reasons of chronology. Tuor and the fugitives no longer spend years in the land of Willows and the FG festival in memorial of Glorfindel held after the decision to go to the Sea must correspond to the Q30 feast in memory of Gondolin where songs are sung for Glorfindel already included from the fuller Q30 account, though there it is held before the decision. [Change made by jallan 2001.07.13: the reference to celandine in the spring is deleted in this passage and inserted in FG-C22 where the festival is now located.]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of Willows {in years after} and fared way to the sea, {when spring set celandine in the meads and they held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel,} these numbered ...<hr></blockquote> FG-C28 (FG): Omission of anachronistic listing of cities as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as a very late marginal note.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Nor {Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor} all the many takings {of Rûm} that {is} are greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gware[d] in the kindred of the [Elves];<hr></blockquote> FG-C29 (FG, Q30, TE*N(i)): True ending of the tale of Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea< Q30, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before>. There they take the name of Loth[r]im, the people of the flower, for Gondo[lindr]im is a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the Loth[r]im Eärend[il] grows in < TE*N(i) the Isle of Sirion in> the < TE*N(i) snow-white stone> house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.<hr></blockquote>All following material is placed in BoTL, in the Sketch, and in Q30 as part of the introduction to the tale of Eärendil, not as part of the story of Tuor. Either position can work. Which is best depends on how much material we have on the youth of Eärendil before Tuor sets sail. I think we won't find much more than Christopher Tolkien did, and will probably end up following his lead in including these final events and Tuor's departure as an epilogue to the Tuor story rather than the prologue to the Eärendil story.

 FG-C30 (PG, SF, QS77): Of Gil-galad:

Christopher Tolkien adds at this point in Q77 a passage partly editorial:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.<hr></blockquote>The sources of this, so far as I can trace are all in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 13):

In an isolated note found with the genealogies dated August 1965, published in PG:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.<hr></blockquote>From SF under the note The Names of Finwë's descendants, 5, under the discussion of Galadriel:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Galad also occurs in the epessë of Ereinion ('scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad 'star-of-radiance': he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwë^47 except Elrond Half-elven. The epessë was given to him because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or moonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.

47 He was the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod.<hr></blockquote>Gil-galad is no longer the son of Fingon sent to Círdan at the Havens, and I expect it was the connection to the Havens which led Christopher Tolkien to introduce Balar here. Details of Gil-galad's mother best belong in the story of Túrin. I suggest the following might be a suitable enhancement/correction of the QS77 sentence [slightly re-edited by jallanite 2001:07:13 to fit the source more closely]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was <named> King of the Noldor there. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.<hr></blockquote> FG-C31 (Q30, AB 2, Elessar, QS77): A mixture of sources for the foundation of the new havens [re-edited since first posting to add mention of the Elessar]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath.< AB 2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and < Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast>< AB*2, and they were healed, and they multiplied> < QS77; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>, and they took to the waves and the building of ships < AB 2 and built a haven>, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores < QS77 of Arvernien>, < AB 2 upon the delta amid the waters> under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. < AB 2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.> <hr></blockquote>I do not know the original source of either of the two addition from QS77 I have inserted. The first is too reasonable to reject, and the second is, I think, Christopher Tolkien's way of getting the name Arvernien found in Bilbo's "Song of Eärendil" in LR into QS77 text. It otherwise only appears on the QS77 map.

 FG-C32 (Q30): In the pleading of Ulmo there are stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30 version to the QS77 version, probably changes made by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons, and to be ignored unless someone can find other sources. Stick to Q30 here.

 FG-C33 (TE*B, TE*C, TE*D, TE*E, TE*N(ii)): To be inserted at this point:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****Then began the love of < TE*C Elwing> and Eärend[il] as girl and boy. < TE E The mermaids>, the < TE D Oarni>, < TE E c{o}ame to Eärend[il]> and < TE N(ii) g{i}ave to {Eärendel} him a wonderful shining silver coat that wet{s}ted not. They loved Eärend[il], in Ossë's despite, and {teach} taught him the lore of boat-building and of swimming, as he play{s}ed with them about the shores of Sirion.> < TE*D Eärend[il] grew to be the fairest of all Men that were or are,> < TE N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer (but Voronwë could not swim).> < TE*C And there was great love between Eärend[il] and Tuor.><hr></blockquote>Mention of the Oarni and mermaids is only found in BoLT material. The Quenya word Oarni appears from the Appendix to BoLT 1 under Ónen to be from the root 'o'o and related to Ô, a poetic word for 'sea'. But this root and everything connected with it disappears in later writings, where the normal word for "sea" in Quenya is ëar from a stem AYAR-, itself explained as an extended stem from GAYA- 'awe, dread'. So it is difficult to even guess what word, if any, Tolkien would have used to replace Oarni. To further confuse the matter in TE N(viii) we find:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'The fiord of the Mermaid: enchantment of his sailors: Mermaids are not Oarni (but are earthlings, or fays?*** or both).'<hr></blockquote>However in TE D the two are equated, and in other texts it is either the Oarni or the mermaids who are named as Eärendel's friends. Tolkien may in this note only mean that these particular hostile "mermaids" were not true Oarni but another kind of being. Therefore I keep both words. Since in late writings Tolkien claimed that most names of the Valar were not truly Quenya, but adapted forms from the language of the Valar, that is what we probably should take Oarni to be. In references to the Oarni outside of TE their gender is not given. It may be that Oarni are of both genders.

 FG-C34 (Q30, TE*C, TE*D, TE*E, TY, QS77): Follow immediately with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him < TE*C and Ulmo's conches far out west called him louder and louder>, and ever the longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Eärámë, Sea-wing, < TE*D with white sails>. < TE*D Ulmo beckoned to him at eve.> < TE*E One evening he call{s}ed Eärend[il] and they {go} went to the shore. There {is a skiff} was Eärámë. T[uo]r {bids} bade farwell to Eärend[il] and bid{s} him thrust it off***> he set sail with Idril < TY (and some say Voronwë with them)> into the sunset and the West. < TE E Eärend[il] hear{s}d a great song swelling from the sea as T[uo]r's skiff dip{s}ped over the world's rim. Great was his passion of tears upon the shore.> And Tuor came no more into any tale or song.

****But < QS77 in after days it was sung that> Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the Noldor whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the [Elves] of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.<hr></blockquote>This final paragaph above should probably be in a slightly smaller font. It is found only in a footnote to Q30 but Christopher Tolkien omits part of it in QS77.

In TY final version under 525 is found:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and departed into the West with Idril (and Voronwë?) and is heard of in no tale since.<hr></blockquote>I use this Voronwë reference "(Voronwë?)" in expanded form, for Tuor prophecies in "Of the Coming of Tuor to Gondolin: "far from the Shadow your long road shall lead you, and your hope shall return to the Sea." Voronwë had originally been a companion in Eärendil's final successful voyage, but dropped out when the story was changed so that Eärendil no longer returned to Middle-earth to learn from Voronwë that Elwing had vanished, the point at which Voronwë had originally joined him (with his son Littleheart?). The phrase "in after days it was sung that" I believe to be an editorial transition by Christopher Tolkien, but something like this is necessary to mark off the more legendary account of Tuor's final fate. Every other account (BoLlT, Silmarillion tradition, annal tradition) says only that nothing more was heard of Tuor after his last voyage.

 On the Elessar

I have not been able to find a suitable place to insert the UT story of Idril handing over the Elessar to Eärendil, mainly because the source narratives are extremely condensed for the departure of Tuor and Idril. Unless someone else sees an opening it will have to appear very early in the Eärendil story instead, with the handing over being there seen as a backflash (as it is presented in the Elessar text itself).

 On the Eagles

The treatment of the Eagles is a problem even in FG where Thorndor and his people know nothing, it seems, of the fall of the great city less then ten leagues from them in the valley directly below their eyries. In later versions the Eagles are the guardians of Gondolin and the surrounding region and it is incomprehensible that they take no notice of an army of invading Orks, Balrogs, and dragons destroying it. (Perhaps they thought the Elves were just celebrating an abnormally roudy Gates of Summer feast?) JRRT would probably have covered this by having the Eagles take part in the battle. I don't think anything can be done by us to fix this.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/13/01 11:25:55 pm

jallanite · 07-08-2001, 07:41 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Suggested emendations to Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel

The poem is found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. These are editorial changes to put the poem in suitable form to fit with late versions of the Silmarillion conceptions.

Remove line 7a: But Wade of the Helsings****wearyhearted

"Tûr" to "Tuor" in line 8.

"Tumladin" to "Tumladen" in line 12.

Line 15 from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of Cristhorn was cloven,****the Cleft of Eagles,<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of the Cleft was cloven,****Cirith Thoronath,<hr></blockquote>"Melko" to "Morgoth" in line 19.

"Thornsir" to "Thoronhir" in line 25. Tolkien gave two replacement lines in the notes which avoid the Elvish name "Thornsir", but the second is incomplete and so these replacements cannot be used. The form Thornsir is puzzling as a contraction into one word of the FG form Thorn Sir. One would expect * Thornhir, just as Minhirath 'Between the rivers' presumably derives from min + * siriath. Also see Limhîr or Limhir 'clear / sparkling river' from lim + sîr in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), references in the index. Hence my suggested standard Sindarin form * Thoronhir. Possibly assimilation rules were different in early Gnomish.

"thirty moons" to "thwarting mazes" in line 26. In the later chronology a timing of thirty (or even thirteen) months is utterly impossible. One could use "three moons" perhaps, but the exact number of months taken to pass from the Cirith Thoronath to finding of Sirion is not stated elsewhere, and I would rather not invent a number here just for the alliteration. But in the FG account is found "wandering in the wastes" and "they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks". For this "thwarting mazes" does well.

"Gods" to "Powers" in line 30. Tolkien generally ceases to use of "Gods" for the "Valar" in later narrative writing except when speaking particularly of Men or when untutored Men are speaking.

".*. the Vanished Isles" to "past the Vanished Isle" in line 31. Christopher Tolkien could not interpret the word, but "past" is a good guess from sense required, and the word seems to have been a short one. The "Vanished Isles", plural, is hard to understand. The Magic Isles are not vanished but accessible, though those who disembark there fall into enchanted sleep. But Eressëa could be entitled "Vanished Isle", singular, as no longer attainable from Middle-earth because of the enchantments placed on the Sea before it during the Hiding of Valinor. Turgon's mariners who sought to reach to Valinor would have been well aware of this. The plural form might be an error by JRRT or a misreading by CT.

".*.*. the sweet breezes" to "then the sweet breezes" in line 35 as thought a possible reading by CT.

"and the dew enchanted" to "and the dew enchanted****drenched their feet." in line 37. This completion to the last half-line of the fragment is suggested by line 70 of "The Horns of Ylmir":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.<hr></blockquote>

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 3:23:48 pm

jallanite · 07-08-2001, 10:01 AM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

Suggested changes to the poem "The Horns of Ylmir"

This poem is found in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, Appendix 2.

Lines 13 to 66 are a poem about a violent rising tide complete in itself. The poem was called The Tides and was annotated Dec. 4 1914 and On the Cornish Coast.

Later JRRT added lines 1-12 and 67-74 to provide a frame to present the original poem as a vision seen by Tuor when he heard the horns of Ulmo in the Land of Willows. The new beginning and conclusion are tightly bound to the BoLT version of the Tuor story where Tuor first hears Ulmo's horns while standing knee-deep in the grass of the Land of Willows at twilight and senses no more the sounds, sights and odors of that land. He is transported in his mind to a rocky seacoast and sees, hears, and smells the sea. Then he awakens and finds himself still in the inland grasses among the willows.

In the new Tuor Ulmo's meeting with Tuor occured inland but right on the seacoast as a storm arose. Only after Ulmo gave Tuor his message did he blow on his horn, but not in long playing of musics but in "a single great note". Since Tuor in this version is already on just such a stormy seacoast such as he saw in his vision in the previous version, the vision called forth in the new version must be changed. Now instead Tuor sees all the waters of the world, then the depths of the Sea, and then the coast of Valinor under Oiolossë, suddenly awakening to the thunder of the storm.

The poem of course can be used without the introductory and concluding lines, making only the emendation of "roaring" to "rolling" as given by CT in this note for line 21 and the nomalizing change of Ylmir to Ulmo. This is certainly the most conservative solution.

I do however have some suggestions for possible modification of the introduction and conclusion.

The first four lines are incompatible and must be dropped.

The next six I change (following also the emendation in the notes of "'Twas" to "It was&quot

from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave***
'Twas was in the Land of Willows that once Ylmir came at eve.

In the twilight by the river on a hollow thing of shell
He made immortal music, till my heart beneath his spell
Was broken in the twilight, and the meadows faded dim
To great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
To sea musics ringing magic that the wind and wave can weave***
It was in the land of Nevrast that once Ulmo came at eve.

In the twilight on the sea-strand through a hollow thing of shell
He blew one long and piercing note*** my heart beneath his spell
Was broken in the twilight, and the storm-cold faded dim
On great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim.<hr></blockquote>The conclusion I emend differently by changing most of it from past tense to present tense. Tuor now proclaims his current situation in the Land of Willows where again the sea-longing has come upon him, thus from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands***
Far, far-off, conches calling*** lo! I stood in the sweet lands,
And the meadows were about me where the weeping willows grew,
Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.
Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling*** and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands **
Far, far-off, conches calling ** now I stand in the sweet lands,
And the meadows are about me with the weeping willows too,
Where the long grass stirs beside me, and my feet are drenched with dew.
Only the reeds are rustling, but a mist lies on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Tis in the Land of Willows that I hear th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ulmo calling ** and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>Let others now comment and improve and suggest different changes ** or say perhaps such emendations are too great to be allowed in this project.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 3:36:00 pm

**lindil** · 07-08-2001, 12:50 PM

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Re: Jallanite's sugesstions

well I can see you havn't posted much in a bit.
<img src=smile.gif ALT="

">

I read through everything once and am going to need a couple more readings I think, before responding in substance. If I have any thing to offer[ which after the first reading I doubt!].

One question -
You are proposing the above revisions as a base text w/ possible stylistic revisions to follow?

One general comment. I favor breaking off the FoG at Nan - Tasarinien and puttting everything re: the havens into the final chapter to give it a bit more length as the last chapter and the ruin of doriath will be disproportionately short.

awesome work Jallanite-

am I right in suspecting you have no children? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

--lindil

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/8/01 6:37:06 pm

jallanite · 07-08-2001, 03:50 PM

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Re: Jallanite's sugestions - His response

As to exact assignment of chapters, I think that awaits a look at the finished materials to see how things flow. For now this is the "Fall of Gondolin", an independent work, and includes as an epilogue narrative up to the departure of Tuor and Idril.

I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons would be facing different issues altogether than what I was doing: making a list of possible emendations and mergings of source texts to produce a base document. If I was merging two texts of approximately equal size in very different styles I would probably have had to face that problem.

The only thing I might have found bothersome stylistically in combining texts was the issue of capitalization: when to use "north" and when to use "North", when to use "sea" and when to use "Sea" for example. I ignored the issue and simply followed the document I was using as a source. Seeing if general rules can be ascertained from JRRT's useage might be worth trying.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 8:34:10 pm

**lindil** · 07-09-2001, 08:18 AM

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Re: Jallanite's sugestions - lindil's response

Jallanite: "I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons
would be facing different issues altogether than what I
was doing: making a list of possible emendations and
mergings of source texts to produce a base document."

lindil:A very good idea and one I had not thought of.

A couple of things 1> we seem to be short handed these days and as there has not been much response to my q's [orks, how to proceed, please check in, etc.] whether from folks being annoyed confused or preoccupied I think gpoing ahead w/ what you are working on is the best option . I will attempt some stylistic editing by pasting your versions into a new copy of FoG [the later sections] in the TftE forum. Will try and read over your work again and to get to work on stylistic editing tonight but we shall see...

Aiwendil · 07-10-2001, 09:00 AM

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Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin

Overall, I agree with most of what you've done, jallanite. Good work. A few notes:

C01 - Migth we also consider making this into one balrog instead of deleting them entirely?

C09 - My understanding of CRT's note in 'Wanderings' is that he believes that the story of the Fire-drake waiting for them outside was abandoned, and replaced with a story where the Way of Escape somehow collapsed. I'm not sure if I agree with this, but we will have to agree with 'Wanderings'. Somehow the Way of Escape must be closed. But I don't see any indication that NO ONE tried to use the Way of Escape.

C10 - I think I'm missing something here. Why do we need to get rid of 'the plain was full of mists'?

C11 - I wonder if this addition is really necessary. I think it makes the prose slightly more awkward, though it's really pretty trivial.

C18 - If the fall of Gondolin occurred at midsummer, then a year and a half could pass before the arrival at Sirion. I think that gives us room to keep the year of wandering and the arrival at Nan-tathren the following summer.

C23 - I like this idea a lot, but I don't know if it's appropriate for this project. I suppose this is a matter for some consideration, and it bears on the question of our ultimate objective.

C25 - Same as above; though we know that the song should be here, I don't know if we should take the liberty of altering it.

C31 - I think this would be the best place to add the Elfstone. At any rate, it should be mentioned along with the Silmaril as a cause of prosperity.

C33 - Are the Mermaids really appropriate? I think this is one element we can be virtually certain would be removed.

C34 - This is good, if we assume that there are stylistic changes still to be made. Otherwise, I think the choppy, outline-style is inappropriate, and I'd suggest relying more on Q30 and QS77.

On the Eagles: I don't think it's necessary to change the role of the Eagles. True, they were dedicated to the protection of Gondolin; but I think this had more to do with killing the occasional Orc that came near it than with engaging in a full-scale battle. They didn't help in any other battle except the War of Wrath.

I agree with most of your changes to the alliterative fragment of Earendil and to the Horns of Ulmo; I personally like the idea of their being included, but I'm not sure if it's within the scope of the project.

On stylistic changes: I really think these are necessary. At the very least, we should eliminate the present tense that occasionally appears in the Lost Tales.

jallanite · 07-10-2001, 09:24 PM

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Re: Comments on Comments

Re your comments, Aiwendil:

C01 My guiding principle was and is to get rid of particular masses of Balrogs everywhere and anywhere by any method. Just dropping the references is easiest (which may not mean best!) If there are too few when all is done, then bring some (or all?) back. I actually don't think we need to drop any. The late reference to seven can be considered another unworkable proposed change. But I do think JRRT did let the Balrogs get away from him. He writes "... for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men", and then slaughters them like the Orks they command. Not much hope of keeping them down to seven even with easy omissions, or actually to six since one is for some reason out on the northern marches waiting for Glorfindel to kill him.
Had that note about the seven never appeared, would we care? Certainly these beings are mostly not of the power of Durin's Bane, but must all Balrogs be alike in power?
Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft, eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of multitudes

C09 I find no reference anywhere to a collapse of the Way of Escape, merely: "the Dry Gate was blocked and the arched gate was buried." CT states in note 28 to "Wanderings" that his dropping the Way of Escape was based on this single and singular statement. I can't find any other passage bearing on the issue. CT's invention of a purposeful closing by Turgon makes good sense in the context. But you are right that an attempt to use the Way might have been made, if it was still openable. So we have to decide, with no evidence either way that I can see, *Sigh!* whether it was permanently closed, perhaps by forced collapse of the tunnel, or whether Turgon had only closed the outside wall, but left it able to be broken open from inside again if there was need or he wished the gate to exist again.
Possibly the principle of not rejecting anything that JRRT wrote that is not contradicted by his own writing applies here. He relates that the gate was closed in one place, but that the Way of Escape was used in another, and there is no real contradiction if the Way was reasonably easy to re-open from the inside: say a day's work with pickaxes and shovels for a large tast force and removal of a binding spell? "We made it, we're out! My, what big teeth the exit has!"

C10 This is a bit complex. My logic was that in recasting the FB sentence in Q30 JRRT replaced FG "the plain was full of mists" with Q30 "fell upon the vale in mournful mists" and FG "and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king" is replaced by Q30 "The fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North". The Q30 sentence thus replaces the original with the two elements reversed, but I felt it reasonable and in accord with the principles to re-insert into the the Q30 sentence the missing informaton that this had never happened before, as there's nothing to indicate that information was dropped for any reason other than general compression. Q30 is certainly better here as well as being later: smoke from burning would have been contributing to the "mist" and there is no need of a "perchance" to relate the true mist to the turning of the fountain(s) to steam. We can re-add the somewhat redundant "the plain was full of mists" alongside its replacement. It really doesn't matter.

C11 The addition of "many" twice is only necessary as a change in wording by JRRT in the later Q30 version. I was also going to change "stricken" to "wounded" following the Q30 corresponding sentence, and then noticed that "wounded" does occur three sentences later in FG material that can still be considered part of the material summarized by the Q30 sentence, and so accepted this later use of "wounded" to equal the word "wounded" in Q30. Pedantic and somewhat silly and artificial considerations! Yet for each Q30 sentence I had to decide to what extent it was a summary of FG and to what extent original addition, and whether different wording was a result of it being a summary or a true later change. That's the way the game has to be played. The decisions must be made. Fortunately most of them don't matter: any mixture of wording from the two sources reads equally well.

C18 I made an unwarranted assumption here! FG states: "But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of willows in years after and fared away to sea, when spring set celandine in the meads and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel, ..." I used this to date to the spring the Q30 "feast in memory of Gondolin" and subsequent removal to the Sea. All annals which mention the fall of Gondolin place the arrival of Tuor and the fugitives at the mouth of Sirion in the following year. So either the FG timing of over a year for the wandering in the mountains or the FG spring dating for the departure from the Land of Willows must be removed. Or both?
I see nothing to push definitely one way or the other. I suspect that one reason JRRT did have the fugutives escape to the north rather than the south was that a northern route led them into wilder territory on the edge of Dorthonion which Morgoth held. That might support the year of wandering. But that still seems a large space of time to wander in, particular if they are in part being guided by Eagles. *Sigh!* Even eight months of wandering seems a lot, but that would still get them to Nan-tathren in plenty of time to leave again in the spring. Aesthetically I like the note about the spring, so will leave that for now as there is no other logic I can see to pull one way or the other otherwise.

C23 The words in the lay "all this have others****in ancient stories / and songs unfolded,****but say I further" are a problem in my suggested setting at the festival. If used here, as a sample of festival song, then the final lines, 32-38, should be dropped. Another possiblity is to place it just after the arrival in Nan-tathren (where the fragment ends) without particular explanation. It just appear as a poetic fragment giving a retrospective summary of the parts of the tale previously related. If we break up the Fall into chapters, it could start one of them. These all just suggestions. It should be fitted in somewhere I feel.

C25 Agreed (sadly) on the daring emendations if others think them too bold. We may have to limit Tuor's recitation to the core poem which presents no problems and drop introduction or conclusion or both. But maybe others can work from what I've started or try some different tack.

C31 You are right! The Elessar has to be mentioned here! But I just can't get any full account to fit here without rewriting or paraphrasing. I've now edited my post to at least mention it at this point, with the assumption that something about it will be fitted in earlier, and of course later. Again, if someone else sees a way, please contribute.

C33 On mermaids, anything written by Tolkien is not to be disregarded unless contradicted by later ideas or in error, etc. I don't know that he did drop them. The late Eärendil information is so frustratingly sketchy, almost worse than the early material. Any scrap of information is important. And they appear in four separate notes. I don't imagine Tolkien was talking about fish-tailed women if that is what bothers. I see something along the lines of the Nereids and Okeanids of Greek myth. But who knows?

C34 Trying to get the other stuff into Q30 was the problem. On any of this mixed material, you or anyone are welcome rework it to read better and still include all the material. With multiple source passages I often stopped at the point, tired but happy, where I had finally managed to fit all the material in somewhere.

The historical present is a strange thing. People fall into it automatically when actually telling a story: "So I went to the store. And as I'm going in the door, I see this woman, and she looks at me funny. So I say 'Hi' to her. And then she says 'Hi' to me". But this natural English (and medieval French) style of narrative is drummed out of peoples' heads as improper grammar by English teachers who don't know any better, influenced by grammarians of three hundred years ago who thought Latin grammar was the model for every language, especially for barbaric non-Romance languages, and persuaded writers to drop the historical present in narrative writing as non-Latin, and so wrong. But medieval French narrative is actually written that way, jumping delightfully from vivid present tense, to past tense for a narrative bridge, and then back to the present again. And much late medieval English prose follows suit. But produce samples of improvements to Tolkien's writing if you wish.

**lindil** · 07-10-2001, 11:41 PM

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Re: Comments on Comments

unfortunately my brain is not up to the task at hand of reviewing both J and A'a work. I will mention a thought that has occured a few times to me lately.

what does anyone think of using [some of] Bilbo's cheeky Earendil poem to fill in gaps of Earendil's voyage. It could be explained [poorly but truthfully] as the only source for the journeys of E. which have come down to us.

goodnight

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Aiwendil · 07-11-2001, 11:54 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

C01: I agree; we'll all need to come to some kind of a better consensus on the balrog issue. Personally, I also would rather ignore the note on '7'.

C09: My mistake; a quick glance at WotJ was apparently not sufficient review for me. Anyway, my inclination would be, as you said, to go with a closing of the Way and possible reopening from inside, as that's the only reading where BoLT and WotJ can be made to agree.

C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea was.

C18: This is tricky. We have, it seems, a simple choice:
1. compress the year of wandering, or 2. change the season of the journey to Sirion. I'd rather not change both, though others may differ. Each has points in its favor:

1. a. If we compress the wandering, we make the arrival at Sirion the next year more plausible, because otherwise we have only at most a few months for them to dwell in Nan-tathren and go to the havens; b. We keep the aesthetic point of their leaving in spring.

2. a. There's nothing specific in later writings that denies a year of wandering; I don't think that the TY material can be considered to do this; b. the passage from which comes the mention of spring is already contradicted by the 'in years after', making me perhaps a little more inclined to cut this.

It's a small but difficult issue, and I think it requires a vote.

C23: I think perhaps if we use it, it would be better not used as a festival song. My reasoning: the poem itself is basically canon, 'true' within the legendarium; it therefore involves no conjecture, no matter of decision (with regard to the canon) on our part to include it. However, it is not a known fact that exactly such a song was sung at the festival; that would be mere speculation on our part, and therefore inadvisable.

C25: It's not that I dislike your changes; it's merely that I'm not sure if we should make changes at all. I would rather like to include as much of the poem as possible, as emended.

C31: Perhaps I'll take a closer look at this later; for now, I'm busy enough already, and I'm also trying to work on some kind of transition between UT and FG.

C33: I suppose you're right, on principle. He never contradicted them later, so they should be kept. However, I really do get the feeling that they were dropped, not merely omitted.

C34: I think we should decide soon whether style changes are permitted. If so, this is fine. If not, we'll either have to simply exclude certain things because we can't fit them in grammatically, or we'll have a very uneven finished product.

Re: the historical present: I'm not debating it's validity; but all traces of it were excised in the later Silmarillions. I think it's a little like the frequent use of 'Gods' to describe the Valar: we should eliminate it based on its omission in later writings. I don't think it'll be hard; all we need do is change present to past.

Lindil: I think that whatever we do with Earendil it's going to be a problem. There will simply be a huge gap in style between Tuor and Earendil; that's unavoidable without a massive creative rewrite. Same thing for the Ruin of Doriath between the Wanderings of Hurin and the Quenta. I think trying to incorporate Bilbo's song might end up being more trouble than it's worth, and in any case it won't solve the problem.

**lindil** · 07-12-2001, 07:08 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

FG-C01 (FG): B!

Jallanite: Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft,
eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of
multitudes

lindil: ok - it is def. a point to revisited.I now see that you are right in supposing that 7 is not workable [w/ the references in the battles of beleriand and what remained in the QS30 .

FG-C02 lindil: yea

FG-C03 - 4 lindil: yea

FG-C05 (FG): There is no mention in any text later
than FG ...
lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict?

FG-C06 (FG): Rewording:

Quote:

Gling[a]l was {withered} melted to the
stock and B[elthi]l was blackened utterly,
and the king's tower was beset.
lindil: how about destroyed or burnt to the stock . Melted to the stock seems awkward. but agreed in obvious need to emmend.

FG-C07 (FG, Q30):
lindil: yea
FG-C08 (FG): D!

Quote:

Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of
iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great
is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.
lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...'

FG-C09 lindil: I agree w/ Aiwendil that the whole way of escape issue will prob need a poll/vote.

FG-C10 (FG, Q30): Rewording:
aiwendil:C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea
was.
lindil : I am still not sure what did not work in the original.

FG-C11 (FG, Q30):
lindil : yea

FG-C12 (FG, Q30): lindil: yea

FG-C13 see above

FG-C14 (FG):. Omit here: lindil yea , work in earlier as per suggestion

FG-C15 (FG, Q30): Rewording:

lindil: yea

FG-C16 (FG, Q30): lindil:yea

FG-C17 (FG):lindil: yea

FG-C18 I favor altering as necessary to keep the arrival in spring as it seems important as a healing time of year after a long wandering.

FG-C19 (FG): see above

FG-C20 (FG): lindil : yea
FG-C21 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea
FG-C22 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea

FG-C23 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea

FG-C24 (Q30):lindil : yea
FG-C26 (FG, Q30): Rewording:

Quote:

The voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart
of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned
with a thirst the deeper for years of
stifling{;}, <in his heart and in his son's.
Wherefore {all that host} <the most part
of the people> arose at his bidding, and
{got them} <they removed> down Sirion to
the Sea.
lindil : can we not keep 'all that host'? I would favor 'journeyed' instead of 'removed'

FG-C27 (FG, Q30): lindil: I need to look at this one more
...

FG-C28 (FG): Omission of anachronistic listing of cities
as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as
a very late marginal note:

true - but if we are dealing w/ much material that came from Aelfwine via Pegolodh and Rumil via eressea and JRRT never seemed to abandon the idea then there is room for eriol's comments as part of what has come to us.
although I think JRRT would have dropped it as he seemed to drop nearly all references to to later historical ages , once he was past the 'kids fairy-tale' phase of the Hobbit and early FotR. Amazons [for the female haladin warriors] in the Tale of the Druedain [UT] is an exception that comes to mind.

FG-C29 (FG, Q30, TE*N(i)): I already stated my preference for less Gondolin and more earendil as far as deciding where to put the transitionary material, but this can be put off till the rest of the tale is in order. and then maybe we will have a better sense of where the 'natural ' divisions are.

FG-C30 (PG, SF, QS77):
Quote:

Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had
escaped the fall of Nargothrond and dwelt
now at Sirion's Mouth, was named High
King of the Noldor there.

lindil yea to the above. I would save the later material for the war of the last alliance. as we are never given a scene of Gil-Galad fighting in the first age.I like very much the idea of incorporating the Shibboleth material for the descriptions of the Noldorin prince, just think this one would work better later.
He was styled
Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his
helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with
silver and set with a device of white stars,
shone from afar like a star in sunlight or
mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish
eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a
height.

FG-C31 (Q30, AB 2, Elessar, QS77): lindil: I need to read up on this more.

FG-C32 (Q30): In the pleading of Ulmo there are
stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30
version to the QS77 version, probably changes made
by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons,
and to be ignored unless someone can find other
sources. Stick to Q30 here.
lindil : I will have to read the section in ques. butin general I am not against CRT's stylistic edit's as they often seem to be of a high-quality.I am concerned when he edit's to omit things like Wandering of Hurin and details of the Narn and. such

as far as I can go now. I apologize if i have not cross-referenced w/ the later comments sufficiently.

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Aiwendil · 07-12-2001, 08:59 AM

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Re: Comments on Comments

<<lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict?>>

I think as we have the exact words of the prophecy in AAm and LQ, we must accept those as the canonical exact words. Anyway, I always found the idea rather silly: why would you name a city Gondolin when the words 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' are etched in your mind?

<<Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of
iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great
is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s.
lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...'>>

I don't see a problem with the word 'monsters', per se; actually I rather like it. It could be taken to refer to trolls, orcs, dragons, or whatever. Also, as the meaning here is clearly NOT simply 'orcs' or 'trolls', I don't think it should be replaced with a specific reference.

jallanite · 07-13-2001, 10:41 PM

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Re: Comments -- Comments getting less at last

I have made editorial changes in my original post on the closing part of the "Fall of Gondolin" in light of comments made. I think it may be better for shorter comments to appear in that post rather than scattered about. I also comment here on some of the remarks and note where I have made changes in the original postings. If I don't comment it is because I am more or less in agreement, as least for today.

C05**I agree, Lindil, on the literary effect of Turgon shouting "Great is the Fall of Gondolin" and added below a possible way of saving it. Probably too fan fictional.

C06**Glingal, the tree of gold is "{withered} <melted> to the stock". Since the tree is a metal image, I thought "melted" to be the best word. "Destroyed" would do per Lindil's suggestion if others find "melted" awkward. I don't see the problem myself. I don't think "burnt" works with gold metal at all. Continue discussion?

C08**On replacing "monsters" with "Orcs and trolls": I'm not sure Tolkien uses "drake" either, or a number of other words outside of FG. But no other story deals with dragons of any kind to nearly this extent so we should expect find more dragon synonyms here. We really can't introduce "trolls". I personally see no problem with "monsters". If replaced with anything it should be "dragons" or "serpents" since that is what JRRT means by the word here and we have no reason or right to change that

C10**On mist in the valley. The original worked alright, but Q30 contains the same material rewritten in full, and so takes priority, and it also shows signs of careful and literary rewriting, e.g. "mounful mists". I see I missed some angle brackets here, and have added them. That was probably confusing things.

C20**On the wording of the "removal" from Nan-tathren. FG has "all that host" while the later Q30 has "the most part of the people", so that must take priority. JRRT has both changed the phrasing and decided that not all the people left Nan-tathren to follow Huor to Sirion. This last makes good sense, considering the beauty of Nan-tathren as described. As to "journeyed" for "removed", since JRRT uses "removed" we should keep it. The word "journeyed" does not occur here at all.
We should use JRRT's own writing as much as possible, not a paraphrase of it.
JRRT seems to have a purposely Biblical touch to it here as in KJV Numbers 33:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 6*And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. 7*And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol. 8*And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days'journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah. 9*And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. 10*And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea. 11*And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin. 12*And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah. 13*And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush. 14*And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink.<hr></blockquote> and so forth.

C22**I have changed the positioning of the mention of springtime from C27 to C22 and explained it in those entries.

C23**I have ommitted here the song fragment, moving its position to a new entry C21.1 with comments. This is tentative only of course.

C28**On the anachronistic cities: I post below the research I've done on the possibility of including Ælfwine and my conclusions. In any case, should a later marginal note be included in the main text, regardless of its source?

C29**On when the tale ends: Aiwendil created his breakdown of the tale to cover all the material in the Q77 "Fall of Gondolin" so might as well keep this for now, considering the material not covered by FG as a sort of epilogue. As Lindil says, we will see what emerges as to where it is best to break.

C30**The explanation of a name should probably be inserted usually when the person who bears it first appears, or first appears prominently. I would imagine in the Nargothrond material Ereinion would be simply mentioned by name, and probably without the epithet Gil-galad, as he plays no part in the tale as told. So this is really his first appearance on stage, though a very short one!
This account of Gil-galad's name and armor could be used again in the Second Age material, probably when he first appears there rather than late in the War of the Last Alliance. It's such a magnificent introduction!
I have removed from C30 the word "high" before "king" as I think this may be invalid CT or Guy Kay supposition. It doesn't occur in a source that I can find before Second Age material, and I doubt that anyone would want to claim the title of "High King" at this time in the First Age?

C34 Departure of Tuor: Haven't gotten around to trying stylistic changes on this. Anyone else is welcome to do so. Possibly a little juggling of personal names and pronouns and some reweaving with a few ands and thens may fix it up.

Again on the historical present ... yes, I don't see it at all in the later writings, but have only done a very cursory search. Possibly this might justify omitting it in BoLT material. But the problem I see with any stylistic changes is what is most annoying to one person is likely to be particular liked by another, especially in the matter if archaisms.

The Prophecy of the Fall of Gondolin

"Great is the fall of Gondolin!", and men shudder.

In BoLT*1 the story of the Prophecy of the North is given, ending with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and he foretold to them many of the evil adventures that after came to them, warning them against Melko, and at last he said: 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and none there understood for Turondo son of Nólemë was not yet upon Earth.<hr></blockquote>Lindil mentions the powerful effect of Turgon's cry here and wishes to retain it.

In no later account is there any mention of a prophecy of the fall of Gondolin in either the giving of the Prophecy of the North or the story of the fall of Gondolin. The tale of the prophecy in QS77 only relates:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them;<hr></blockquote> but no actual words of this prophecy are given at all. Then follows the curse laid on the Noldor which Tolkien added to the prophecy, and that is given in full.

Is the omission of the mention of Gondolin here purposeful, or the result of compression? The difficulty is to understand how Turgon and his people could have named his city Gondolin if this prophecy was well known. Normally in tales of the coming of a prophecied doom something happens, then someone recalls an obscure prophecy, and then for the first time the dread meaning of the prophecy is understood.
This could be brought in here allowing a little fan fiction.

I will postulate that the prophecy, spoken in Quenya, actually ended with "Great is the fall of the hidden rock!" Tolkien does tell us in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12, that Turgon really named his city in Quenya as Ondolindë 'Singing Stone' (a metaphor for carved stone), but this was translated into Sindarin as Gondolin, and then interpreted by a kind of pun as Gond dolen 'Hidden Rock'.

So during the sack, Turgon remembers suddenly the Quenya words of the prophecy and calls out in Sindarin, "Great is the fall of Gondolin!" Those who hear him now understand: their city is the hidden rock of the Prophecy of the North!

Let me try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Amnon the prophet of old} [the Prophecy of the North], saying: < BoLT 1 'Great is the fall of the hidden rock!">; but Tuor speaking wildly ...<hr></blockquote>Too creative to be allowed? Can anyone come up with anything better?

Ælfwine

Lindil suggests we might keep Ælfwine who at least in the 1950's in a large number of texts was still the medium through which Elvish tradition was preserved for Tolkien to translate. Can we keep Ælfwine?

In the second edition to LR (1966) a "Note on Shire Records" was inserted following the Prologue, in which it was stated of the Red Book of Westmarch:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But annexed to it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave him as a parting gift.<hr></blockquote>Somewhat later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1418, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.<hr></blockquote>It has been largely assumed that this was now JRRT's purported source for The Silmarillion and any other tales of Elvish or Mannish tradition of the first Three Ages he wished to present.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), near the end of chapter I, "The Prologue", CT notes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****The Note on the Shire Records entered in the Second Edition. In one of his copies of the First Edition my father noted: 'Here should be inserted Note on the Shire Records'; but he wrote against this later: 'I have decided against this. It belongs to Preface to The Silmarillion.'<hr></blockquote>That JRRT would have placed this as part of the front matter to The Silmarillion is proof that the volumes annexed to the Red Book are indeed now put forward by him as the major source, and probably the sole source, of the tales of The Silmarillion. I believe no trace of Ælfwine can be found in any document later than the 1950's.

Conclusion: Ælfwine in Tol Eressëa has been discarded, being replaced by Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell.

One could keep Ælfwine for certain particular Elvish traditions I suppose, but which ones? It would be rather a comedown if the tale of his coming to Eressëa is told, and then all that follows are a few technical dialogues with that garulous bore Pengolodh.

We could postulate that Sam brought a copy of the Red Book, including the Elvish translations, to Tol Eressëa, and that Ælfwine copied them all there, and so the Red Book comes through Ælfwine. I think this improbable.

At most Æflwine is a sailor of whom a tale is told that he reached the Lonely Island and walked and talked with Elves.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/14/01 12:46:46 am

jallanite · 07-14-2001, 07:12 AM

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Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate.

This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of it in the account of Tuor's departure.

Tuor for a time returned via Ilbranteloth (= Cirith Ninniach) to his old haunts by Asgon (= Lake Mithrim) per TE*N(vi):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Tuor has sailed back to Falasquil and so back up Ilbranteloth to Asgon where he sits playing on his lonely harp on the islanded rock.'*** This is marked with a query and an 'X' implying rejection of the idea.<hr></blockquote>Idril departs after Tuor in early versions. A suggested fate for her in TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Littleheart's gong awakens the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl.^6

6**Struck out here: 'The sleeper is Idril but he does not know.'<hr></blockquote>Eärendil in Mandos per TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor is gone to Valinor and nought is known of Idril or of Elwing.<hr></blockquote>Tuor and Idril seemingly identified with the planet Mercury (similar to last mention of Elwing in QS77) per TE*C:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor and Idril some say sail now in Swanwing and may be seen going swift down the wind at dawn and dusk.<hr></blockquote>Tuor dwells with Ulmo in TE*N(xviii):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When Eärendel comes to Mandos he finds that Tuor is ' not in Valinor, or Erumáni, and neither Elves nor Ainu know where he is. (He is with Ulmo.)'<hr></blockquote>

**lindil** · 07-14-2001, 12:42 PM

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Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate.

"This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of
it in the account of Tuor's departure."
I think you are right.

<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000000e Creation of a Revised Silmarillion</a>
Lindil's Tolkien/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>,
http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>.
'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.

Aiwendil · 07-23-2001, 04:45 PM

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Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin

The Transition

Here I assume that we will follow the later 'Tuor' in Unfinished Tales as far as it goes; I thus start with the transition immediately following the last line of this text, "Then Ecthelion said at last: 'Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself.'"

I refer to this text as Tuor; as usual, FG refers to the Lost Tales version, Q30 refers to the Quenta Noldorinwa, and QS77 refers to the published Silmarillion. In addition, TO refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT.

I will go through FG paragraph by paragraph beginning from my suggested transition point, the paragraph beginning "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'"

I follow jallanite's practice of using the following symbols:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Underlined Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

To these I add:
/ / Material altered in accordance with our principle 6c; mostly used for expansion of outlines. In this case, I will show the deletion of the original as well; for example: {Coming thither of Elwing} = /Elwing came thither/.

I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of discussion; after each one I give notes.

P.1: {Then said Tuor: "What be those names?"}< TO Tuor asked the name of the city, [a]nd {the chief of the Guard}[Elemmakil] made answer: [']'Tis said and 'tis sung: "Gondobar am I called and Gondo[lodrim]bar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and [?] am I named, the Tower of Guard, [Nome] Thuri{o}n or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of [Morgoth]; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Loth[inan] the flower that blooms [in] the [valley]." Yet,' said he, 'in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin.' Then said Voronwë: 'Bring us thither, for we fain would enter,' and Tuor said that his heart desired much to tread the ways of that fair city.

The 'chief of the Guard' seems to me to refer to him who was later named Elemmakil, though it might also be Ecthelion.

See the following post for discussion of the names of Gondolin.

P.2: < QS77 At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain. Then < TO [h]orses were brought {(a grey horse for Tuor)} = /, one white for Voronwë and one grey for Tuor;/> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for [']Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmost plain.['] Then Tuor and his companion fared over the plain that was of a marvellous level, broken but here and there by boulders round and smooth which lay amid a sward, or by pools in rocky beds. Many fair pathways lay across that plain, and they came after a day's light march to the foot of the Hill of Watch (which is in the tongue of the Nold[or] Amon Gwareth). Then did they begin to ascend the winding stairways which climbed up to the city gate; nor might any one reach that city save on foot and espied from the walls. As the westward gate was golden in the last sunlight did they come to the long stair's head, and many eyes gazed upon them from the battlements and towers.

I may have taken too much liberty in adding that Voronwe's horse was white, but I can't think of any other reasonable way to introduce the fact that Tuor's horse was grey; all other horses used by the Eldar seem to be white. We might simply use: . . . horses were brought, a grey horse for Tuor . . .; I don't know if that's really awkward or not.

P.3: But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistening pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble < TO up to its high platform and its great gate>, bordered by slender balustrades and cooled by the leap of threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth, and he fared as one in some dream of the [Valar], for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin.

P. 4: Even so came they to the gates, Tuor in wonder and Voronwë in great joy that daring much he had brought Tuor hither in the will of Ulmo {and he had himself thrown off the yoke of Melko for ever. Though he hated him no wise less, no longer did he dread that Evil One with a binding terror (and of a sooth that spell which Melko held over the Noldoli was one of bottomless dread, so that he seemed ever nigh them even were they far from the Hells of Iron, and their hearts quaked and they fled not even when they could; and to this Melko trusted often).}

In the later story Voronwe was not captured by Morgoth. This paragraph, reduced as it is, should probably be appended to P.3.

P. 5: Now is there a sally from the gates of Gondolin and a throng comes about these twain in wonder, rejoicing that {yet another of the Noldoli has fled hither from Melko} Voronwë had returned, and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp. Rugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears. {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by Melko and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.}

Passage on the relative stature of Elves and Men delted for obvious reasons.

P. 6: {How it came ever that among Men the Noldoli have been confused with the Orcs who are Melko's goblins, I know not, unless it be that certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko. The greatest hatred was between them and the Noldoli, who named them Glamhoth, or folk of dreadful hate.}

There is no suggestion in later writings of Elves being confused with Orcs.

P. 7: Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: [']This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwareth, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.' But Voronwë named himself {Bronweg of the Gnomes}, come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: 'I am Tuor son of [Huor] son of [Galdor] of the house of [Hador] of the sons of the Men of the North who liver far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.'

I think that even if we decide to retain the 'house of the Swan' as referring to Annael, we should use 'the house of Hador' here, since he has just named his father and grandfather.

P. 8: Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: 'Lead him before the king.'
* * * *
P. 9: Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of iron and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and coursts amid gardens of bright flowers and < TO mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees> were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the [K]ing's {palace} < TO house>, and the tower thereof < TO on a pillared arcade> was the loftiest in the city, < TO {and the banner of Fingolfin}= /and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin/> and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
* * * *
P. 10: On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one {that bore blossom} of gold and the other of silver, {nor did they ever fade, for} and they were {shoots from} likenesses of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before [Morgoth] and [Ungoliant] withered them: and those trees the Gondothlim named
Gling[a]l and B[elthi]l.

P. 11: Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> < TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} = /and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for/ he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.> {"Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was set in our books of wisdom, and it has been written that there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim whenso thou faredst hither."}

There is no later indication of this prophecy.

P.12: Then {spake Tuor}< Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo < TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared[.] < QS77And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea[,]> < TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon} = /and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished./>> {and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, 0 father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."}

I added 'in the hearing of all' from TO; that outline says that this occurs either 'in the hearing of all' or 'in a council-chamber'. There's really nothing to push us in either direction, but the former is much easier to work into the narrative, so I went with it.

P. 13-15: < QS77Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

Here I would delete all 3 paragraphs from FG. The exact dialogue they use here is not so relevant to the later story; for example, the message bidding Tuor to prepare for battle appears to have been dropped. I think it's better to follow the more concise account of their converse above, at least until:

P. 16: Then said Turgon: [']Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone
out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.[']

I eliminate 'that is called' as Tuor has just spoken of the Sirion, and obviously knows what it is. After this paragraph, I think we can follow FG with more limited corrections.

In a few places, I've used passages from QS77 here that I believe were created by CRT; I think this is better here (and allowed by our principles), as it achieves slightly better unity of style.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil </A> at: 7/25/01 10:18:04 am

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

Aiwendil · 07-25-2001, 08:16 AM

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On the seven names of Gondolin

First, I'll deal strictly with updating the old names:

Gondobar, Loth, and, of course, Gondolin can stay. 'Gondothlimbar' is merely the class plural for the dwellers in Gondolin + _bar_; I believe the later class plural was _Gondolidrim_, so I used *Gondolidrimbar, as awkward as it sounds. There might be better suggestions there. The question mark is for Gwarestrin, where we have a bit more of a problem: this is said in II to mean 'tower of guard'; a literal rendering of this in later Sindarin would be Minas Tirith, which I don't think we can use in light of the Minas Tirith that already exists in the 1st age. A look at the etymological notes in II reveals that 'Gwarestrin' means more literally 'guard pinnacle'; we could represent 'pinnacle' with Sindarin _amon_ or _ered_, 'hill' and 'mountain', respectively. 'Amon Gwareth', of course, already refers to the hill on which the city is built. But I think for 'guard' the best to use is _tir_ as in _tirith_ and _tirion_. Then we might have _Amon Tirith_ or something like that, or we could make an actual compound, _Tiramon_. The last name, 'Lothengriol' presents less of a problem. It is said here to mean 'flower that blooms on the plain', but since 1. I could find no later Sindarin (or Quenya) word for 'plain' and 2. the etymological notes give _engriol_ not as 'plain' but as 'valley', I changed it here to 'valley', using _nan_ for plain. This gives us *Lothnan, which (I think) would become *Lothinan.

On top of these concerns, however, we have several later names for Gondolin that appear in the Etymologies. These are 'Gondost', 'Ardholen', and 'Garthoren'. These names are not mentioned in direct connection with the 7 names of the city; we therefore might assume that they are not among the 7 names. However, as the 7 names already include some that are clearly more colloquial nick-names, and as we never again find any other names for Gondolin, I think we should probably include these three.

That means, of course, that three of the original names must be replaced. 'Gondost' is given as 'stone city'; at first glance, then, it would appear to best replace 'Gondobar', translated 'stone city' by the guard and more literally meaning 'stone dwelling'. However, this is a problem, as we find 'Gondobar' in the etymologies as well. Clearly the two names existed side by side. This leads us to a further problem: if we use both 'Gondost' and 'Gondobar', we'll have basically the same translations used by the guard: 'Gondobar, city of stone, and Gondost, city of stone'. The best solution I can say would be to use something like: 'Gondobar, stone-dwelling, and Gondost, city of stone.'

What, then, should 'Gondost' replace? My inclination would be 'Gondothlimbar' - this is awkward when we update it to _Gondolidrimbar_, and I think the conjunction of 'Gondobar' and 'Gondost' makes the most sense if they appear next to each other. However, beyond these practical concerns, there is nothing particularly to indicate that 'Gondost' would have replaced 'Gondothlimbar'.

The names 'Ardholen' and 'Garthoren' seem to be related. The etymolgies are very confusing on these. Under the stem
GAT(H)-, we are given: "Another name is Garthurian = Fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)."

'Another name', I think, refers to Doriath; there is a discussion of Doriath's names a few sentences earlier, and later, _Garthurian_ again appears as a name for Doriath. Here, however, it is equated with _Ardholen_. I'm not sure what we are to understand the relationship to be; perhaps _Garthurian_ is Dorathrin and _Ardholen_ is Noldorin?

Under the stem 3AR- (3 representing the back-spirant), we have: "Dor. garth realm, Garthurian (Fenced Realm = Doriath)" This at least seems to make it clear that _Garthurian_ is Doriathrin, and refers to Doriath.

Later under the same stem (though the stem GARAT- was later inserted for this section), we are given: 'Q arta fort, fortress. N garth: cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin-distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian."

From all this, the only conclusion I can draw is that we are dealing with two separate, though similar, names. One is Doriathrin 'Garthurian', meaning Doriath, the Noldorin form of which, 'Ardholen', refers to Gondolin (a situation that would get confusing if a Noldo wanted to refer to Doriath). The second is 'Garthoren', a a Noldorin name referring only to Gondolin. The first name means 'Fenced Realm', the second means 'Fenced Fort'.

Under the stem THUR- we are given _thuru_ = fence (Noldorin). So 'Garthoren' at least makes sense etymologically. For 'Ardholen' to work, though, we'd need some kind of word *olen meaning 'fence'. This is, I suppose, possible, since 'Ardholen' is JRRT's Noldorin translation of 'Garthurian', which means 'Fenced Realm'.

'Garthoren' looks quite a bit like 'Gar Thurion', one of the original names for Gondolin. Its meaning, however, is completely different: 'Fenced Fort' vs. 'Secret Place'. We could, though, replace 'Gar Thurion' with 'Garthoren' fairly reasonably.

'Ardholen', though, looks very little like any of the original names, in spelling or meaning. If we are to use it as one of the seven names, the best replacement I could come up with would be to use it for the problematic 'Gwarestrin', though there is no real basis for this.

Sorry for the length and tedium of this discussion, but I think it's an important one. The 7 names of Gondolin should definitely be preserved (they are mentioned in TO); and, of course, we have to do our best to make them work etymologically.

SteadfastSam · 07-25-2001, 01:11 PM

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Re: On the seven names of Gondolin

It's coming nicely! I agree with the above changes.

"I will, Lord." said Tuor.

jallanite · 07-25-2001, 09:18 PM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

The transition section is mostly pinned down here. Not much point on going on about all the good parts. Here's where I differ or have suggestions.

There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.

I suggest starting a little further back in FG with:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then spake Tuor also and questioned {where they might be, and} who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons. Then 'twas said to him by one of that company: "We are the guardians of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of Seven Names where all who war with M[orgoth] may find hope."<hr></blockquote>I remove the phrase "where they might be" as it is already a strangely unperceptive question in the original, and really cannot stand in the new version where Tuor knows much more from Elemma[c]il and the passing of the other gates. But something is needed to lead into Tuor's question about "these names". And that question about the "folk in arms" follows perfectly from the end of Tuor where we have just been told that<blockquote>Quote:<hr> upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented;<hr></blockquote>It is not surprising that Tuor asks about this array of folk greater than he has yet seen.

Is the chief of the Guard to be Elemmacil or Ecthelion? From Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.<hr></blockquote>Also Elemmacil salutes Ecthelion rather than Echthelion saluting Elemmacil, and the tone of Elemmacil's words are slightly subservient.

For Gondothlimbar we find in "Etymologies" under GOND-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gondobar (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar[/i] in the Lost Tales (II.*342).]<hr></blockquote>CT's note is to the point. Use JRRT's own new form: Gondothrimbar. It is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'people' + bar 'dwelling'. For ost + r- = othr- refer to "Etymologies" stem OS- where appears:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> othrond fortress, city in underground caves = ost-round (see ROD).<hr></blockquote> Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.

Tolkien probably intended Gar Thurian to be replaced by the Garth(th)oren of the "Etymologies", which we would write as Garthoren of course. But, as you point out, the meaning of the name has changed. Gar meaning 'place' seems to entirely disappear in true Sindarin and 'garth' is definitely 'fort, fortress'. Changing 'place' to 'fort' in the translation is not a problem. Changing the meaning of the second element, however, destroys the explanation for the name as given. But, perhaps:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Garthoren or the {Secret Place} < Etym: GARAT- Fenced Fort>, for I am {hidden} fenced away from the eyes of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>So the name is kept (in its new form) and the meaning is changed per JRRT's notes.
If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.

Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. But Loth-a-ladwen is not much better for using as later Sindarin. We have no later case of a meaning 'of' or 'the' or 'of the' and ladwen is never found outside of BoLT save this one time. I am inclined to keep it as is, however, as possibly "poetical" and not pure Sindarin. The translation in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" is "the Lily of the Plain", which fits with the note in "Etymologies" under LOT(H)-<blockquote>Quote:<hr> losse blossom (usually owing to association with olosse snow, only used of white blossom [see GOLÓS]).<hr></blockquote>I think Loth-a-ladwen is intended to mean the flower we call Lily-of-the-Valley, used metaphorically of Gondolin, whence the translation "Lily of the Plain" which would be the literal meaning of the Elvish name. Since this translation appears in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" it should be used as the most up-to-date, as well as agreeing with the original BoLT entry Lósengriol in the Appendix to BoLT 2 as 'flower of the vale or lily of the valley'. Possibly merge the information from the Lay which reads:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Loth, the Flower, they name me, saying 'Côr is born again,
even in Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily of the Plain.'<hr></blockquote>The prose could be rendered:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.<hr></blockquote> Gwarestrin I am also inclined to keep. It contains the elements gwar, still valid in Amon Gwared and trin which is supposedly a contraction of Tirion. So the meaning "Tower of the Guard' certainly fits. Only esc does not (recognizably) appear in later Sindarin which does not necessarily mean it was dropped.

I think the normal policy should be that BoLT Elvish forms that are not replaced by later counterparts and can't be supported as valid forms in the later legendarium or with great certainty converted to such should be dropped. But the need to keep the seven names for me takes priority for me. Rather than inventing forms or substituting totally different names, I'd rather change the translation of one of the names according to JRRT's own words, and keep the two of the seven that are dubious Sindarin.

For Loth-a-ladwen, I suppose we could use Loth Land. But I don't like that. I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)

I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.

Q30 is very explicit about the journey across the plain:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thither they were led and passed the gates of steel, and were brought before the step of the palace of the king.<hr></blockquote>The gates of steel are here the gates of Gondolin. The journey of Tuor and Voronwë alone is here rejected.

Probably change as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthlelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin {; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for}*:* "Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmmost plain." Then Tuor and his companion {fared} < Q30 were led> over the plain that was of a marvellous ..."<hr></blockquote>I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.

P.4 Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.

P.5 The description of Tuor as rugged and clad in skins is well enough in the original FG. But what now of his Elvish armour? I suggest here be inserted the description of his armour found later in FG where it is introduced as a gift from Turgon to Tuor.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp and his <armour> <made of [Noldo]-steel overlaid with silver; {but} and his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield. But r>ugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears.<hr></blockquote>I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} Yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}, though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they were < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.<hr></blockquote>One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.

P.6 Some of this might be used to augment material treating on the origin of Orks. You are right to drop it here.

P.7 I have also come to feel that the "House of Hador" substitution you use is indeed the best. The swan element of the FG at this point is now present with Tuor's shield and helm instead.

P.11 I think Turgon's speech may be retained with revisions:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. "Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom} foretold by Ulmo, {and it has been written} saying that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} < QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.['] < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood ....<hr></blockquote>The FG written prophecies are the counterparts to Ulmo's prophecy in later writings and I think something like this might be the minimal change in wording to translate the old account to fit the new. Turgon is of course trying to put the best light on the prophecy.

I am tempted to suggest that Glamdring 'Foehammer' be inserted here as the name of Turgon's sword. But *Sigh!* we cannot know that the sword Turgon is wearing here or at any time in the tale is actually Glamdring. He might have worn Glamdring for years, for example, then bestowed it on another. He might have one sword for state occasions and one for battle.

I also suggest re-using here in describing Idril the phrase from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.<hr></blockquote>The reader will probably have forgotten this bit of information from the tale of the founding of Gondolin, and it would would provide a vivid touch here at the beginning of the real story of Idril. It also distinguishes Idril from the dark-haired Lúthien.

P.23 Possibly a little more of Tuor's words from Ulmo can be fitted in. At least his introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who makest deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men.<hr></blockquote>Then follow with the standard Q30/ QS77 summary. JRRT does seem to have later dropped altogether the idea that Ulmo urged Turgon to take action other than abandoning Gondolin, and so most of the BoLT account of the message and Turgon's response does have to go.

On the matter of style here, we will have to see when the Maeglin material and other matter of Turgon's stay in Gondolin is fitted in, at what point it is best that the modern style ceases and the archaic style begins. Until then I think the safest is to build the base text with exact words as you are doing.

You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used.

Aiwendil · 07-26-2001, 09:29 AM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

<<There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.>>

I think you've misread this; it would actually start: "Tuor asked the name of the city, and Elemmakil made answer:"

However, perhaps you are right that we should start a bit earlier. My only reasoning for this starting point was that the first words of TO are: 'Tuor asked the name of the city'. I think your starting point is good, however.

<<Elemma[c]il >>

The c vs. k matter probably requires its own thread. Perhaps that's a topic where we could have more of a group discussion.

<<And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.>>

I don't think there's a question that Ecthelion outranks Elemmakil. I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. This is really a fairly trivial decision though, as the dialogue could easily have been spoken by either of them.

<<Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.>>

Agreed.

<<If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.>>

Or it could be that just as 'Gondolin' = 'Stone-song' was later taken as 'Gond Dolen' = 'Hidden Rock', 'Garthoren' = 'Fenced Fort' may have later been taken as 'Gar Thorin' = 'Hidden place'. The only problem is the word _gar_ which may not have meant 'place' later. (In the actual text I gave I used _nome_ = place, but I definitely don't think this is the way to go.)

<<Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. >>

This had completely escaped my attention. Still, as you point out, Loth-a-ladwen is little better. I think we may still want to change it to a form we know is proper Sindarin, like *Lothinan.

<<but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.>>

I like this, but I had thought that perhaps the saying 'Tirion is born again' might be better used at the actual building of Gondolin.

<<I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)>>

True. But I'd still probably tap this name as the first to go if we replace any with 'Ardholen' or 'Gondost'.

<<I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.>>

Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to tell which parts of an outline need expansion and which don't.

<>

Nonetheless, I think we may have to let this go. While it is an excellent point of description, it seems to me a bit awkward. I wonder if we could (legitimately) work it in somewhere else?

<<Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.>>

Perhaps it could be inserted for Gwindor in the Tale of Turin?

<<But what now of his Elvish armour? >>

I had quite forgotten that (as important a point as it is). I think your corrections are good.

<<though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth]>>

I wonder if this should be kept, even if we keep the remarks on their stature. In the Lost Tales, nearly all the Noldoli became slaves of Melko; those in Gondolin were the only free Gnomes; thus, this statement has force and relevance. Here, however, I think it comes off as a little out of place. It is true that some Noldor were made thralls, but it is hardly a general characteristic of all the Noldor that they are bent of back from long labour.

<<You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used. >>

I had forgotten the late change to Amon Gwared. But I agree it needs checking.

What then of the names Ardholen and Gondost? Do you think these should replace 2 of the 7 names? If so, which ones?

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil </A> at: 7/29/01 8:02:47 am

Tar Elenion · 07-26-2001, 04:07 PM

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Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

-------------
Quote:
I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:
Quote:
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{'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} Yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}, though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they were < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping.
-----------------------------------

The 'but lithe' seems to be refering to the Sindar in comparison to the Noldor. That is the Sindar are more lithe than the Noldor. JRRT greatly changed his mind on the differing statures of Elves and Men. In Lost Tales Tuor was taller than the Elves, but when reading the updated versions this is no longer present. I will post on a seperate thread a comparison of the statures of Elves and Men as JRRT changed them in his writings.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains

jallanite · 07-26-2001, 05:32 PM

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Re: Elvish size

I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.

You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me.

Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;<hr></blockquote>perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build.

Also in Tuor JRRT writes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He was come now almost to his full stature, taller and swifter than any of the Easterlings;<hr></blockquote>So Tuor is a tall man; indeed, even before reaching full growth he is taller than any Easterling.

My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar".

Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people?

P.5 I see now that "his heavy spear barbed with fish bone" must be deleted. From Tuor, describing Turor and Voronwë's setting out:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor took with him the small bow and arrows that he had brought, beside the gear that he had taken from the hall; but his spear, upon which his name was written in the eleven[ sic]-runes of the North, he set upon the wall in token that he had passed.<hr></blockquote>So he has no spear when he comes to Gondolin. I think "clad in the skins of bears" must also go. It might still be true; but it would be most unusual for Tuor to wear his garments over his mail-coat instead of under it, and so the Noldor would see little of them. Tuor's cloak, Ulmo's gift, which he does naturally wear over his armour, is almost certainly not bear-skin.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/26/01 7:37:56 pm

Tar Elenion · 07-26-2001, 05:59 PM

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Re: Elvish size

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Quote:
I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.

You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me.

Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;
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perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build.
-------------------------------
I answered this more fully in the 'Statures' thread. For the sake of completeness I will refer here to 'Numenorean Linear Measures' where it is noted that the Teleri are less in build and stature than the Noldor; and to the appendix to 'Quendi and Eldar', where it is noted that the Quendi from whom the Noldor came were 'tall and strong' while the other Quendi are not described in this way (taking this to be a comparison to the other Quendi of course). Perhaps if this needs to be continued it should be done in the other thread?

----------------------------
Quote:
My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar".

Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people?
-----------------------------

I have some vague recollection of JRRT addressing Tuor's height in Gondolin in one of his later essays, I think he was also speaking of Turin or Hurin as well. I dont recall where this was offhand (and may be mis-remembering), but I will attempt to hunt it down.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains

Aiwendil · 07-28-2001, 10:30 AM

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Re:Comments, suggestions, and cavils.

I said in my last post: <>

Confirming my supposition, from Tuor:

"And Elemmakil, captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, looked long and closely at them."

jallanite · 07-29-2001, 08:36 PM

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Re: More comments

Tar-Elenion,

I also have some such vague recollection as you describe about Turor's height in Gondolin or maybe something about Túrin. Wherever the passage exists, if it does, it is not in the obvious places in the commentary on either of the full tales of Tuor.

Aiwendil:

 On the names of Gondolin.

If will try to summarize the current state of discussion and add what I can.

Acceptable:

Gondolin, Gondobar, and [/i]Loth[/i] are fine as they stand, being excellent Sindarin and having the same meanings as their Gnomish originals.

Later Gondothrimbar can replace early Gondothlimbar. It is a form found in the "Etymologies" and is good Sindarin. True, Gondothlim is replaced by a very different form Gondolindrim. However Gondothrim also appears in "Etymologies" and it doesn't matter whether it should be considered an alternate form existing alongside Gondolindrim or a form (almost?) only used as part of Gondothrimbar.

Small difficulty:

Gar Thurian 'Place-Secret' does not work properly in later Sindarin, however the "Etymologies" gives a name of Gondolin Garth(th)oren 'Fort-Frenced', which is almost certainly Tolkien's replacement form. Since both form and meaning can stand, I believe it should be used. I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties. Tolkien gives us both the new form and the new meaning, and we might as well use them.

Major problems:

Gwarestrin is almost valid (which is something like being almost pregnant). Gwar appears nowhere else but in Amon Gwareth/Gwared, but that is enough. It stands. Estrin is explained clearly under Gwarestrin in BoLT 2, Appendix:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> A late entry in GL gives estirin, estirion, estrin 'pinnacle', beside esc 'sharp point, sharp edge'. The second element of this word is tiri(o)n see I.238 ( Kortirion).<hr></blockquote>The entry Kortirion in Bolt 1, Appendix, gives:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The word tirion 'a mighty tower, a city on a hill' is given in QL under root TIRI 'stick up', with tinda 'spike', tirin 'tall tower', tirios 'a town with walls and towers'. There is also another root TIRI, differing in the nature of the medial consonant, with meaning 'watch, guard, keep; look at, observice', whence tiris 'watch, vigil', etc. In GL are tir- 'look out for, await', tirin (poetic form tirion) 'watch-tower, turret', Tirimbrithla 'the Tower of Pearl' (see Silmarilli).<hr></blockquote>In both "Etymologies" and in Road Goes Ever On the Quenya form Tirion is cited as deriving from the stem TIR- and meaning "great watch-tower". This is actually better for meaning. The Noldorin (= Sindarin) counterpart given in "Etymologies" is tirith, but that is obviously not the exact cognate. So -tirion, -tirin, -trin can stand either as a true exact cognate (used poetically?), or a borrowing from Quenya. Its use here is well explained in QS77 "Of the Noldor in Beleriand":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... so that Gondolin upon Amon Gwareth became fair indeed and fit to compare even with Elven Tirion beyond the Sea.<hr></blockquote>Instead of Kortirion we now have Gwar-tirion or Gwar-trin.

But what of the element esc- 'sharp point, edge'. I find it nowhere later. It does seem to have been replaced by EK-, EKTE- 'spear', found in Tolkien final etymologies of Ecthelion and Egamloth in The War of the Jewels for example. So what would the form be? In "Etymologies" from EKTE- Tolkien gives the nouns Q ehte 'spear' and N aith spear-point. So either ek or original ekt- + tirion worn down to trin ought to give eithrin.

(The correspondence of ai] in monosyllables or final syllables to ei elsewhere is normal Sindarin. Compare Q tehta with S andaith 'long mark' from ann + * taith to the same element in teithant 'he drew' on the Moria Gate inscription.)

So a postulated Sindarin form for early Gnomish Gwarestrin is Gwareithrin. Another prossibility is to make it a recent compilation from aeg which Tolkien refers to in Ecthelion and Egamloth and so the form become Gwaraegdrin with lenition of t to d. I believe both are valid forms. So, three choices are to keep the Gwarestrin as possibly valid, replace it by Gwareithrin, or replace it by Gwaraegdrin. I set these forms here for further discussion.

A fourth possibility is to replace Gwarestrin by another name altogother, one we know is valid.

Loth-a-ladwen is early Gnomish. The form ladwen ends like uthwen 'escape' and faidwen 'release, freedom'; so -wen may be a normal genundative or abstract ending of some sort. But do such ending -wen appears in later Sindarin to our knowledge.

One might take ladwen as an early compound from the stems LAT- 'lie open' (which is found in Tumladen and almost certainly in imlad 'valley' and Lithlad 'Ashen Plain') + GWEN 'greenness, freshness' and understand a basic meaning something like 'meadow'. If an early compound the gw would have changed to simple w ( latgwen to ladwen) and not be affected by the later change of gw to b found normally with earlier initial gw in Sindarin. I don't at all believe this etymology, but it is one I think acceptable and would probably be one theorized if ladwen did appear in a later text. Another possibility is to use the adjectival form laden (use normal correction from the Noldorin lhaden in the "Etymologies&quot

as a noun.

For the preposition a which disappears after BoLT we could substitute Sindarin na which seems to have the same meaning. So possible forms are Loth-na-ladwen, Loth-na-laden, Loth-a-laden or the original Loth-a-ladwen.

We can also replace one or both of these forms by ones totally different. We have three correct names referencing Gondolin not appearing among the seven: Gond-dolen 'Hidden Rock', Ardholen 'Realm-Hidden', and Gondoth 'Stone-fort'

The last of these may not have been intended as a true use-name, but rather an intermediate name to explain the etymology of Gondothrim and Gondothrimbar. In BoLT Gondothlim is gond 'stone' + hoth 'folk' + lim 'many' whereas the later form is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'host'.

Ardholen is almost certainly ardh 'realm, kingdom' + dolen 'hidden'. See the index to QS77:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Hidden Kingdom** Name given to both Doriath ..., and to Gondolin, ...<hr></blockquote>In Tuor "Hidden Kingdom" is always capitalized but "hidden city" is not. Tolkien introduces the form Ardholen in a discussion of by-names used for Doriath 'Land of the Fence', and then mentions parenthetically "(which was also applied to Gondolin)". It is likely that it would have been more accurate to write "(which was also applied to Turgon's secret realm)", since its meaning is unsuitable to refer to the city of Gondolin alone. The Hidden Kingdom contained other guardian fortresses (of which we see seven in the Way of Escape), mines hidden in the mountains, almost certainly farms and orchards, and so forth. Tolkein avoids calling Gondolin a kingdom, I believe, but does refer to the Hidden Kingdom and Turgon as the Hidden King, and his people as the Hidden People.

But Gondost and Gond-dolen are available as names of the city.

I'm not recommending anything here for these two last city names. Just laying forth the data and pushing it around and seeing what can be done. Of the these major problems nothing seems right to me yet, or I guess I would not classify them as major problems.

Elemmacil/Ecthelion

On "chief of the guard", "captain of the guard", "Warden of the Great Gate" there is no certainty it seems. I would assume "chief" and "captain" are equivalent terms, and "captain" takes priority with us. Elemmacil reports to no-one at any of the other gates save the last, so is perhaps chief of the guards for all seven gates. Yet though Ecthelion is "Warden of the Great Gate" not Warden of the Gates, he appears to be Elemmacil's superior.

Of course there is only one gate in FG. In Tuor the "chief of the guard" has been broken into two persons, and one of them identified with Echthelion. Probably each of the other six gates had its own warden, all reporting to the "Warden of the Great Gate". The charge of the wardens would be normal maintainance and providing support for the guards. And the guards would report to Elemmacil who also reports to the "Warden of the Great Gate". There's no definite answer though as to who says what in FG other than whether words seem to better fit Elemmacil or Ecthelion.

Tar Elenion · 07-30-2001, 09:47 PM

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Re: More comments

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Quote:
I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties.
---------------

I would note that Ilkorin = North Sindarin is supposition. I think Mr Fauskanger suggests this as a possibility at Ardalambion. I think it is more likely that Ilkorin sould be equated with the speech of the Laiquendi and Nandor (though this is supposition on my part). VT 42 just came out and it gives some notes on the Sindarin varieties which may indicate that Ilkorin should not be equated with North Sindarin.

Re Elemmakil:
I think 'captain of the Gaurd' is refering to his position as commander of the Dark (or Outer) Gaurd. That is those charged with gaurding the tunnel and Gate of Wood.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains

Aiwendil · 08-07-2001, 02:58 PM

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Miscellaneous comments

Well, it's certainly been quiet here lately.

Elemmakil/Ecthelion
The question is: who replaced the captain of the Guard from the Lost Tales, Elemmakil or Ecthelion? I would submit that it was Elemmakil, though the question obviously does not have so simple an answer. There are points in favor of each:

1. Ecthelion is clearly the highest ranking Noldo in the scene; the captain of the Guard in LT is likewise the highest ranking Noldo on the scene. However:

2. a. Elemmakil is referred to as 'captain of the guard' and
b. Ecthelion already existed when the LT was written; he is therefore clearly NOT the same person as the captain of the guard from LT. 'Elemmakil' could easily be the name of that person, though.

I think overall, 2 is the stronger argument. This is probably a matter for a vote, though.

Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil
We should probably lay down some kind of guideline for all c vs. k issues. We clearly (I think) intend on keeping Melkor and Tulkas, whereas I think we equally clearly intend on replacing Menelmakar with Menelmacar, for instance. Elemmacil/Elemmakil falls somewhere in between; Elemmacil is, as far as I know, unattested, but it does seem likely that it would have changed.

Further names to consider
Just a few stray thoughts on some names not covered by jallanite's (very thorough) list:

Othrod, Balcmeg, Lug, and Orcobal: These are the names of Orcs slain in the battle. It seems inadvisable to tamper with them, but I think they do need a little a thought. First of all, what language are they? 'Othrod' and 'Lug' do not appear in the name-list for the Fall of Gondolin. 'Lug' certainly sounds Orcish rather than Elven, and Othrod has no likely Elvish etymology save perhaps oth + rod = 'round cave'! However, Balcmeg and Orcobal are given in the List, and seem to be Gnomish. It seems unlikely that four Orc names given in such proximity would be given so inconsistently that some are in Orcish and some in Gnomish (Sindarin).

So, we have two choices here: try to update 'Balcmeg' and 'Orcobal' into later Sindarin, and assume that 'Lug' and 'Othrod' are given inconsistently in Orcish; or leave all four names exactly as they are, and assume either that they are all Orcish, or that there are fairly bizarre Sindarin etymologies for them that we can't even guess at. I'd probably favor the latter, but it needs thought.

Dramborleg: The name of Tuor's axe, said to mean "Thudder-sharp". There seems to be no later Sindarin etymology for it, though. Should we keep the name, assuming an unknown etymology, or delete it? (This problem is similar to that of 'Rog').

One final, very miscellaneous, idea: just after Tuor reaches the Square of the Folkwell, in the paragraph beginning, "There were the scatterlings . . .", there is mention of oak and poplar trees. As far as I can tell, this is the only mention of these trees in the tale. The Tuor outline in UT mentions mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreens, but CRT notes that mallorns were never elsewhere connected with Gondolin. Hence, I am extremely tempted to replace 'oaks and poplars' with 'mallorns and birches', though this is of course extremely dubious.

jallanite · 08-12-2001, 01:27 PM

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Re: Miscellaneous comments

Elemmakil/Ecthelion

The more I look the less I care. Actually, since the name of the chief of the guard in FG isn't given we don't know that he wasn't Ecthelion. Go by who is most likely to speak the words in the tales as revised.

Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil

Tolkien was still using k in some early Appendix material, most of which was written after Tuor. The decision to use c throughout for the k sound in Elvish, except before the w sound, was a very late decision by Tolkien, so we should not expect to find it implemented in Tuor or in other works CT dates around 1951. But macil 'sword' seems to have been a common element in names. In published LR Narmacil and Calmacil are names in the line of the Kings of Gondor. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) Tolkien gives Mormacil 'Blacksword', the Quenya version of Túrin's byname. All three forms have c rather than k.

Ork names

Yes, who can say what they are? I think you are right, leave them alone unless an obvious correction appears. All names need not be meaningful as Tolkien stresses in his later writings. And he was always ready to change the etymology to fit the form. There are at least three different etymologies for Ecthelion. As the Black Speech did not exist at the time of the Fall of Gondolin, the Orks may be using Sindarin names, perhaps dialectical, or they may be names in some Orkish tongue, but partly adapted in the tale to Sindarin style.

Dramborleg

The index to BoLT 2 says Dramborleg means 'Thudder-sharp'. from root TARA, TARAMA 'batter, thud, beat' with the second element being leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'.

For the identical Sindinarin form the etymology is slightly different but meaning is close enough as to make it certain JRRT was purposely justifying the name.

See drambor 'clenched fist, hence blow with fist (see KWAR)' under DARÁM- in "Etymologies". The word dramb, dram(m) means 'a heavy stroke, a blow (e.g. of axe)'.

For the second element, see the stem LAIK- 'keen, sharp, acute'. The Noldorin form given is lhaeg which we would normalize in Sindarin as laeg. I would expect this to reduce to leg in the last syllable in a compound, and indeed it does in an example under the stem LAS²- where the Q name Lastalaika 'sharp-ears' has the Noldorin cognate Lhathleg.

Dramborleg stands with no problems.

Poplars and Oaks

I think it unlikely that two kinds of deciduous trees, mallorn and birch, and no other would be found in Gondolin. Certain particular mounds (or whatever the word is) had on them or about them mallorn, birch, and evergreen trees. That says nothing about trees in the rest of the city. Leave the reference.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 8/12/01 3:42:31 pm

jallanite · 08-19-2001, 03:14 PM

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Re: The Attack on Gondolin

 The Attack

This deals with the coming of the Orks to Gondolin and the first part of their battle for untruth, injustice and Morgoth's way up to just before just before Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog at the pargraph beginning "Now Tuor reached the Square of the Folkwell by a way entering from the north, and found there Galdor ...." I am not covering changes to the dragons or the Balrogs as these are covered in separate posts at "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a> and "Bye Bye Balrogs" at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000105pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=105.topic</a>.

Codes for my sources are as follows:
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §16 and from §17 in the Q2 version including later emendations as per the notes.
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

To make references easier I have given each mini-discussion a code of the form FG-A followed by a two-digit decimal number. The A stands for "Attack". (Decimal numbers could be used for any problem passages I have missed, to keep the order.)

Each section lists the sources from which it is drawn in its header. The first source listed is the primary source, and the second is the secondary source. Main text is always from the primary source and inserted text from the secondary source. When there are more than two sources the codes given at the beginning of this post will be included at the beginning of each insertion.

I naturally do not include passages where the only change is regular normalization: change of a proper name to the latest form, change of a directional word, or changing quotation mark standards from double then single to single then double.

On the directional words: Tolkien reversed compass directions in the accounts following FG so that, at least in parts of the battle and in the flight of the fugitives, FG "south" must become "north", FG "north" must become "south", and FG "west" must become "east". These changes are to be made in the geography of Gondolin, Tumladen, and the Encircling Mountains everywhere in FG (other than in placing the Way of Escape to the west) and in one passage to follow.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Underline Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

 FG-A01 (FG) Introduction:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now when the {seventh} summer of <the treason of M[a]eglin> had gone {since the treason of Meglin}, and Eärend[il] was yet of very tender years though a valorous child, M[orgoth] withdrew all his spies, for every path and corner of the mountains was now known to him;<hr></blockquote>In all chronologies from the "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" to the last version of "The Tale of Years" Maeglin's treachery occurs the year before the fall of Gondolin, not seven years and and some months before its fall as in FG. I have slightly changed a phrase and moved its position to create the required new information.

 FG-A02 (FG) Maeglin's discovery of the hidden way:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ; and by reason of the folly of certain of the quarrymen, and yet more by reason of the loose words of certain among his kin to whom word was somewhat unwarily spoken by Tuor, he gathered a knowldge of the secret work and laid against that a plan of his own<hr></blockquote>These words should possibly be deleted. In QS77 there is an account of the preparation of the Secret Way which ends with the words: "and no whisper of it came to Maeglin's ears." But I cannot find sources for most of this passage and suspect it to be a CT/Guy Kay editorial addition. If no-one else can find a source then the story of Maeglin's discovery should perhaps be retained.

 FG-A03 (FG) Gladness in winter:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... yet the fountains played ever on Amon Gware[d] {and the two trees blossomed,} and folk made merry till the day of terror that was hidden in the heart of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>The two trees of Gondolin are now metal images, not live blossoming trees.

 FG-A04 (FG, Q30) The two festivals:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So came and passed with revelry of children the festival of {Nost-na-Lothion or} the Birth of Flowers, and the hearts of the Gondol[indr]im were uplifted for the good promise of the year; and now at length is that great feast <they named> {Tarnin Austa or} the Gates of Summer near at hand.<hr></blockquote> Nost is dubious for 'birth', but could be kept as the stem still appears in "Etymologies" with meaning 'beget', but Tarnin Austa is almost certainly not valid, and so stylistically it makes sense to drop the Elvish names of both feasts.

 FG-A05 (FG, Q30) Light in the North:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <At last, and Eärend[il] was then seven years of age, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Or[k]s and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes {were} new devised for the taking of the city. The host of Morgoth came over the Northern hills where the height was greatest and the watch less vigilant, and it came at night at time of festival>. For know that on that night it was their custom to begin a solemn ceremony at midnight, continuing it even till the dawn of {Tarnin Austa} <the Gates of Summer> broke, and no voice was uttered in the city from midnight till the break of day, but the {dawn} <rising sun> they hailed with ancient songs <at its uplifting>. For years uncounted had the coming of summer thus been greeted with music of choirs, <all the folk of Gondolin> standing upon their gleaming eastern wall; and now comes even the night of vigil and the city is filled with silver lmaps, while in the groves upon the new-leaved trees lights of jewelled colours swing, and low musics go along the ways, but no voice sings until the dawn.
****The sun has sunk beyond the hills and folk array them for the festival gladly and eagerly*** glancing in expectation to the East. {Lo!} <But> even when she was gone and all was dark, a new <red> light suddenly began, and a glow there was, but it {was} <mounted> beyond the {northward heights} <hills in the North and not in the East>, and men marvelled, and there was a thronging of the walls and battlements.<hr></blockquote>
For know that on a night it was their custom to begin a solemn ceremony at midnight, continuing it even till the dawn of {Tarnin Austa} the Gates of Summer broke, ...[/quote]Merging of the two accounts. I removed the word "were" as a detailed account of the devising will have already appeared from FG. This is the only place where directions in the old FG account should not be reversed.

 FG-A06 (FG) Turgon's emblems:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mighty was the array of the house of the king and their colours were white and gold {and red}, and their emblems the moon and the sun {and the scarlet heart}.<hr></blockquote> The embalmed heart of Turgon's father which became his symbol early vanished from the legendarium. I suppose he could still have the heart as a symbol, but now with some other origin. But such is never mentioned. Removing all information on colors and emblems here is difficult because the information is given for every other house and at the end we are told: "This was the fashion and the array of the eleven houses of the Gondothlim with their signs and emblems, ...." Unfortunately Tolkien, so far as I know, did not create a colored heraldic design for Turgon as he did for many of the other Noldorin princes.

 FG-A07 (FG, Q30) The Comming of the Host:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****And now came the Monsters across the valley <and there was no stay in the advance of the foe until they were beneath the very walls of Gondolin> and the white towers of Gondolin reddened before them <, and Gondolin was beleaguered without hope>.<hr></blockquote> Merging two accounts.

 FG-A08 (FG) Maeglin's plotting:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {Learning much of the secret delving of Tuor (yet only at the last moment had he got this knowledge and he could not discover all) he said nought to the king or any other, for it was his thought that of a surety that tunnel would go in the end toward the Way of Escape, this being the most nigh to the city, and he had a mind to use this to his good, and to the ill of the Noldli. {Messenges by great stealth he dispatched to Melko to set a guard about the outer issue of that Way when the assault was made}; but} He himself thought now to take Eärend[il] and cast him into the fire beneath the walls, and seizing Idril he would {constrain her to guide him to the secrets of the passage, that he might} win out of this terror of fire and slaugher and drag her withal along with him to the lands of M[orgoth]{. Now M[a]eglin was afeared that even} with the secret token which M[orgoth] had given him {would fail in that dierful sack, and was minded to help that Ainu to the fulfilment of his promises of safety}.<hr></blockquote>These outer deletions need not be made if it is decided that the QS77 declaration that Maeglin did not discover the delving is taken as valid. Unless someone can find the passage that says so and is the souce of the QS77 I think they should be retained.

In any case, the last part of it is seemingly a backflash to when Maeglin first discovered the Tuor's tunnel, at which point he then, and only then, sent to Melko concerning the Way of Escape. This is odd, why wait till then to mention this possible exit? And as CT questions, who would Meglin be able to trust to send on this mission? This also depends on whether the Way of Escape is considered openable at this time, or whether all such mentions should be ignored. I think probably a separate Way of Escape discussion is needed on this theme, like Balrogs and metal dragons it is a thread of incidents that needs to be treated as a whole, and which does not effect anything else in the tale.

Odd variant version

From The Hobbit, chapter IV, "Over Hill and Under Hill", on Orcrist:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls.<hr></blockquote>This seems to picture a long siege in which there are battles before the walls. The hunting in the hills might refer to the time of Morogth's spying, but if any Orks escaped to tell the tale, would that not have revealed Gondolin's location to Morgoth? Even too great a slaughter or Orkish spies in particular regions would have cast suspicion on those regions.

In the original FG only Rog and his troop fight before the walls and are quickly destroyed to an elf: all other fighting occurs within the city. I don't think anything can be done with this but ignore it.

Aiwendil · 08-21-2001, 08:26 AM

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Re: The Attack on Gondolin

FG-A01: Agree
FG-A02: I cannot find any source for this statement either; I agree that the text should be kept unless something turns up.
FG-A03: Agree
FG-A04: Well, we could possibly make keep a Sindarin name for 'Gates of Summer' using _annon_=gate, and a Sindarin form of either Q. _Laire_ or Q. _Saiwen_, just to give us another option; but I agree that deleting both names is the way to go.
FG-A05: Agree.
FG-A06: Agree.
FG-A07: Agree.
FG-A08: Agree; again I think we need not make the two outer deletions.

Regarding the Hobbit version: I think we should ignore this, classing it with the later change in the Hobbit whereby the Sun and Moon were implied to have existed from the beginning.

jallanite · 09-09-2001, 03:27 PM

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Re: Maeglin's Treachery

 Maeglin's Treachery

The main difference in this part of the tales are differing accounts of how Morgoth discovered the location of Gondolin.

In FG Melko is made suspicious by hearing reports of a Man, Tuor, wandering in this area and sends out his spies to investigate. They discover the Way of Escape through some captured Noldoli, capture more Noldoli within the Way of Escape, and finally scale the Encircling Hills and behold Gondolin.

In the latest account WH Morgoth discovers the region in which Gondolin probably exists by the despairing cries of Húrin to Turgon where the former entrance to the Way of Escape stands. But no spy can come within sight of Gondolin because of the Eagles. The Way of Escape is shut; and even when it was open, few or no Noldor who were not of Gondolin ever passed that way or knew Gondolin's location.

In both accounts Morogth's winning of Maeglin is the final key to his assault. But in FG this occurs soon after Eärendil's birth and Morgoth only then begins preparations for the assault which occurs about six years later. In the later accounts Maeglin's captivity occurs when Eärendil is six, and the attack on Gondolin follows during the next year.

Accordingly the account of years of preparation by Morgoth must either by condensed into a single year, or have started when Húrin first revealed the approximate location of Gondolin. Since Tolkien insists in WH note 30 that Morgoth did know well Gondolin's location at the time of the capture of Maeglin and that what Maeglin had to promise was to undermine Gondolin's resistance, it appears likely to me that the preparations have in fact been long underway.

Codes for my sources are as follows:
FG "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2).
Q30 "The Quenta", written in 1930, from The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4). Quotations are from §15 and from §16 in the Q2 where it exists, otherwise th Q1 version.
WH "The Wanderings of Húrin" from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).
QS77 Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien in 1977.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Underline Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

Each section of text is given a recgnition code using FG- for "Fall of Gondolin" followed by M for "Maeglin" followed by a two-digit number.

Because of the complexity of this account which skips around in the texts the following sections cover the entire output text, with omissions only occurring within a section where they are indicated by ellepsis. There are no gaps between the sections.

I begin just after the birth of Eärendil and the description of his beauty.

FG-M01 (QS77): Gondolin revealed.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> None knew that the region wherein the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Húrin, when standing in the wilderness beyond the Encircling Mountains and finding no entrance he called on Turgon in despair. Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion.<hr></blockquote>This is almost certainly an editorial insertion by CT based on the account in WH but may be retained as it states only what we know must be the case. We don't have the freedom to create one as good by ourselves out of fragments.

FG-M02 (FG): Morgoth sends spies.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And {he} Morgoth got together a mighty army of spies; sons of the Or[k]s were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats that could pierce all glooms and see through mist or fog or night; snakes ...
...
... to search out the dwelling of the Noldo[r] {that had escaped his thraldom} of Turgon[/i]; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to ensl<hr></blockquote>The modifications are the change of "he" to "Morgoth" for readiblity and of the phrase "that had escaped his thraldom} to "of Turgon". The sons of Fëanor and their people are also free from Morgoth's thraldom. This phrase may go back to Tolkien's original version of FG where the sons of Fëanor probably did not exist.

FG-M03 (FG, WH): Findings of the spies.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ****Now while Tuor dwelt in happiness and in great increase of ...
...
... indeed {among} many hidden things {that} they dragged to light {they discovered that Way of Escape whereby Tuor and Voronwë entered aforetime. Nor had they ...
...
... the Noldoli creeping there to flee from thraldom}. They had scaled too the Encircling [Mountains] at certain places {and gazed upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwareth from afar; but into the plain they could not win for} < WH though because of> the vigilance of its guardians and < WH the Eagles> < FG and the difficulty of those mountains> no spy of {his} Morgoth's could yet come within sight of the land behind {the Encircling Mountains}> them to < FG gaze{ed} upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gware[d] from afar> {but into the plain they could not win for the vigilance of its guardians and the difficulty of those mountains.<hr></blockquote> This is somewhat confusing as I have moved phrases to different positions in the last sentence to retain as much as possible and they show twice in this text, once as deleted and once as being retained or being inserted. In the original FG the spies could see Gondolin from the heights but could get no farther because of the vigilence of the Elves. In WH the spies cannot get even that far because of the vigilence of the Eagles. However I have kept the watch of the Elves also. In this account both Eagles and Elves are active. CT similarly keeps mentions of the "leaguer" from Q30 in QS77.

FG-M03 (FG): The construction of the secret way.[/b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Indeed the Gondo[lindr]rim were mighty archers ...
...
... and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}.<hr></blockquote>This whole section to be retained without change. In published writings an account of the construction of the secret way appears only in QS77 and FG indicating the account in FG is probaby a summary of the FG account by CT and Guy Kay.

FG-M04 (FG, Q30 §15, Q II}: Turgon's policy of isolation continues.[/b]<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <Tidings Turgon heard of Thor[o]ndor concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills>; but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear.<hr></blockquote>The final ruin of Doriath belongs chronologically to this period and so is inserted at this point. I have noticed the awkward changes of tenses and levels of archaism in the resulting sentence. I am purposely not dealing with such stylistic problems at this time.

FG-M05 (FG): Morgoth prepares for war with labor of thralls.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet these years are filled by M[orgoth] in the midst ...
...
... stray ever a foot from their places of bondage.<hr></blockquote>This sentence kept intact without change.

FG-M06 (Q30, FG): Maeglin is captured.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> On a time, when Eärend[il] was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, M[a]eglin was lost. Now Ma[e]glin loved ...
...
... and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that M[a]eglin < FG straying in the mountains alone> was taken < FG prisoner by some of> the Or[k]s < FG prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the Gondo[lindr]im. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers>. < Q30 M[a]eglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and <evil came into the heart of M[a]eglin, and he said to his captors: ...
...
... the adders that twined about its legs, M[orgoth] bade him speak. Then he told> {he purchased his life and freedom by revealing} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>Merging of the two accounts. Idril's foreboding is removed here as this is the only occurrence in Q30 and must be taken as a short summary covering the much fuller account in FG given in "The Attack on Gondolin" in a previous post in this thread. Q30 mentions Maeglins's fear of torture only after he is taken to Angband by the Orks, but that is probably from compression, not because JRRT necessarily changed the story. Maeglin would have feared torture both when captured by the Orks and later when brought before Morgoth. Indeed in FG Morgoth, after the agreement is made, again threatens Maelgin with "the torment of the Balrogs" in return for any treachery. The words "he purchased his life and freedom by revealing" are removed here because in the latest account in WH revealing the location of Gondolin is not what preserves Maeglin's life. Morgoth already knows that information. See the next section.

FG-M07 WH note 30, Q30): Morgoth's first answer.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Morgoth {must} answered laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more*** <the ways whereby it might be {found and} assailed> and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>Merger of two accounts. The futher arrangement concering Tuor, Eärendil, and Idril is covered in the following section FG.

FG-M08 (FG, Q30, WH note 30): Morgoth and Maeglin agree.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And M[orgoth] hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned.
****< Q30 Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth>. Now the end of this was that [M]orgoth aided by the cunning of M[a]eglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Ma[e]glin's reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} < Q30 the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal> < Q30 when that city should be taken>*** yet M[orgoth] purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise*** {but} and {Tuor and Eärendel should Melko burn and} Maeglin was to < WH compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did {he}> Idril < WH would> be given to M[a]eglin's arms*** and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. < Q30 Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led M[a]eglin the easier to this foul treachery.<hr></blockquote>A merging of three accounts.

FG-M09 (FG): Further discussion between Morgoth and Maeglin.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yet as meed of treachery did M[orgoth] threaten M[a]eglin with the torment of the ...
...
... lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.<hr></blockquote>In this section is included Maeglin's suggestion of devising new dragons, which is covered in the separate thread "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a>. Any changes to this passage conerning dragons are to be considered there and not here.

FG-M10 (FG, Q30): Maeglin returns.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then <Morgoth sent> M[a]eglin {was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat} back to Gondolin, lest men should suspect the betrayal, and so that M[a]eglin should aid the assault from within when the hour came>; but M[orgoth] wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless though <evil was in his heart,> he {wore} <abode in the halls of the king with> a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "M[a]eglin is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; ...
...
... bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.<hr></blockquote>Merging of two accounts.

FG-M11 (FG): The creation of new dragons.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then on a time M[orgoth] assembled all his most cunning ...
...
... the most dire of all those monsters which M[orgoth] devised against Gondolin.<hr></blockquote>Changes concerning the dragons in this passage are to be discussed in the "Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin?" http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000101pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=101.topic</a>. Changes concerning the Balrogs in this passage are to be discussed in the thread "Bye Bye Balrogs" at http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=8&t=000105pub12.ezboard.com/fthebarrowdownsthesilmarillionproposeddraftcanonst udiesandtheories.showMessage?topicID=105.topic</a>. Otherwise the account remains unchanged.

Aiwendil · 12-02-2001, 01:07 PM

Tuor in Gondolin

Here is my version of the brief section we're still missing between the Transition and the Maeglin's Treachery.

The following symbols are used:
[ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """.
< > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ".
{ } Material to be deleted.
Italicized Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge.

FG-TG01

Quote:

{Then Tuor's heart was heavy and Voronwe wept and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.} But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would.

In the later story, the urging of Ulmo through Tuor that Turgon prepare an assault on Angband is gone, as should be Tuor's weeping.

FG-TG02

Quote:

{and she was} Idril Celebrindal, the daughter of the king.

Idril has already appeared in the story.

FG-TG03

Quote:

{and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldoli had prevailed in the end to its making}

There is no later mention of such divided counsel, and the enthralled Noldor motif was later significantly downplayed.

FG-TG04

Quote:

{and many murmured and would fain have backed him into battle with the Orcs, seeing that the speeches of those two, Tuor and Turgon, before the palace were known to many; but this matter went not further for reverence of Turgon, and because at this time in Tuor's heart the thought of the words of Ulmo seemed to have grown dim and far off.}

Same reason as in TG-01.

FG-TG05

Quote:

Great love too had Idril for Tuor, and the strands of her fate were woven with his even from that day when first she gazed upon him {from a high window} as he stood a way-worn suppliant . . .

According to TO, Idril is in the king's chamber when Tuor arrives, not at a high window.

FG-TG06

Quote:

{Thus was first wed a child of Men with a daughter of Elfinesse, nor was Tuor the last}

Beren and Luthien.

FG-TG07

Quote:

{and that tale of Isfin and Eol may not here be told}

This will have been told earlier.

FG-TG08

Quote:

{Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true.}

I think this should be deleted, though we are without any direct contradiction of it. There is no later indication that Maeglin was 'swart', and certainly there were not rumours that he had Orc's blood!

FG-TG09

Quote:

{Now he had bid . . . often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Meglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid.}<QS77And {Maeglin's} his secret hatred grew ever greater, for he esired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin.>

FG-TG10

Quote:

{Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}

The etymology of 'Earendil' is obviously not now a secret.

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

06-19-2001, 08:04 PM	#41
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin ------------------------ Quote: <<Or even why must any Balrogs be slain in the War of Powers?>> I'm not going to make this claim with certainty without the book in front of me, but I'm almost sure that one of texts in MR - either LQ or more likely AAm refers to the death of a number of balrogs before the onslaught of the Valar. ------------------------------ Yes, in Annal 1099 (HoME 10): at the end of the battle Morgoth 'sent forth a host of Balrogs and they assailed the standard of Manwe ... they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword' until Morgoth alone was left (which implies all were slain suggesting re-embodiment of some, though perhaps some were left elsewhere (Angband), I would have to research it more). This is referred back to when the note on '3 or 7 Balrogs' is discussed. It leaves one to wonder what JRRT might have changed this to. Perhaps changing it to 'demons' might not be inappropriate. ---------------------------- Quote: <<or do you suggest going following CT's lead and giving no numbers?>> That's precisely what I suggest. I agree that we obviously cannot merely make up a different number; but I think that there's sufficient doubt about the figure of 7 that we need not mention it. I also think we can still have Rog slay a balrog (or else we'll have to cut out a very significant portion of the battle scene, and we'll be left with nothing about Rog at all). That would still allow 3 to have been killed in the War of Wrath, if we assume that the total of 7 must be kept. ---------------------------------- I understand your point on Rog, though I disagree. The later attestations seem to be only Ecthelion and Glorfindel. But that would leave finding something for Rog and his folk to kill. I don't recall that Rog is singled out for actually killing a Balrog but rather he and his men drove in to the Balrog host and slew many. Perhaps mentioning the 'Boldogs' again might be appropriate. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

06-21-2001, 06:25 AM	#42
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 652</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin On Boldogs and Balrog's I agree, I don't see any need [yet] to mention the # of balrogs but using seven as a working model for Gondolin seems to make sense. I have to admit that while the boldog seems a suitable replacement, it is rewriting in a way we have yet to contemplate on. we would not be giving creature xyz an updated name we would be changing the type of creature. I think if we had more info on the boldog's and even a hint somewhere [maybe it does exist and I've missed it?] that JRRT wanted to solve some of the balrog problems by replacing them w/ boldogs we would be in business, but, short of that we are left w/ 'use or loose' balrog situations. Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

06-21-2001, 05:04 PM	#43
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 119</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin I understand what you are saying about the Boldogs, and dont really disagree. However I dont know whether it 'really' would be replacing one creature with another. The LotR Balrogs were radically different than the pre LotR Balrogs that made it into Tales that JRRT did not update (or did so only in brief notes). It is possible that it could be considered a name change. The Boldogs are minor Maiarin spirits similar to but weaker than the Balrogs. I dont think you have missed anything about them. I posted the I posted the Myths Transformed quote above but see MR page 418 for it in fuller context. This is the closest to a 'hint' that exists to my knowledge. It is just something for everyone to think about. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

06-22-2001, 01:45 AM	#44
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 655</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin It might work Boldogs that is. But I think that JRRT's comments on X fall a little short of the kind of green light we need. I propose we look at it again with maximum scrutiny when we get to the appropriate section in FoG. I am about to set up the New Translations from the Elvish Forum <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> so Pengolodh, Tar Elenion, Jallanite and Aiwendil look for a password in your email . Anyone else who may be interested can email me or better yet - post in the introduction thread. I see the 2nd [TFE] forum as having to functions at this point although this is cert. open to group review. 1> a place to store base texts and our finished and working projects. 2 > a place to conduct anonymous votes on any give subject by poll w/ out having to let the poll function loose here in the Gen Silm project forum. all discussion of the texts can still happen here so all can follow along. Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working onthe 2nd Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, and Gilthalion's http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. and Finrod prophecieth to Andreth " Therefore Eru,if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor... must come in to conquer him. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

06-24-2001, 05:58 PM	#45
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 26</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin I am responding here to three issues that have been raised, and have tried to deal with them exhaustively. On Boldog: All the material is in MT, text 10, Orcs. Tolkien is speculating that Orcs were derived from Men,and says they were by nature short-lived. This then seems to bring up a difficulty in his mind as his earlier conception of Elvish origin might make Orcs immortal in the same way Elves were. (That the goblins of The Hobbit actually recognized Orcrist and Glamdring from Gondolin is perhaps the only published text that indicates this, but Tolkien certainly had much in his mind that he either did not put on paper or has not survived.) Tolkien then tries to account for apparently long-lived Orcs:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.^4 Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.^5 ***[footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog* was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs. 4*Cf. text IX, p.414: 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes'; also text VIII. p. 410. 5*The footnote at this point, stating that ' Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War'. and was perhaps not a personal name, is curious. Boldog* appears several times in the Lay of Leithian as the name of the Orc-captain who led a raid into Doriath (references in the Index to The Lays of Beleriand; he reappears in the Quenta (IV.113), but is not mentioned thereafter. I do not know of any other references to an Orc named Boldog.<hr></blockquote>The Quenta reference is:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Boldog captain of the Orcs was there slain in battle by Thingol, ...<hr></blockquote>It would seem that Tolkien in his mind saw Boldog playing a greater part in the tale than in the extant texts, presumably as a leader in earlier battles between Elves and Orcs, and this part was either never actually written down or has become lost. But if Orcs are short-lived, how could this be? Tolkien then speculates that Boldog* may have been a title not a personal name, or may have been the name applied to Orc-formed Maiar. Or is that last note actally saying that Boldog was the name of a particular creature who was one of the Orc-formed Maiar. This interpretation agrees less readily with the wording but more readily with the logic. This speculation would be unnecessary if in legends of the First Age more than one Boldog appeared at a single time. Multiple Boldogs in one tale, at least by that name, did not occur and should not be made to occur, even if Boldog were to be accepted as name for incarnate Maiar in Orc-form and not some other sort of title. Possibly also it was the personal name of a particular Maia in Orc-form. That Tolkien would have replaced some of the Balrogs in the "Fall of Gondolin" with "Orc-formed Maia" may be true. But would the Elves know an Orc-formed Maia from a true Orc? One could probably change some of the Balrogs into something like "Great Orcs" instead, if justification can be found to change them into anything. I don't believe the word "Boldog" can be used. (I know that we aren't to use asethetics for anything but very, very low-level choosing, but also I don't find it particularly effective to have Gondolin razed by an army of bull-dogs.) The House of the Swan In the BoLT version of "The Fall of Gondolin" there are several references connecting Tuor to the swans:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Now on the quiet waters of Mithrim over which the voice of the duck or moorhen would carry far he had fared much in a small boat with a prow fashioned like to the neck of a swan,<hr></blockquote>Later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This by slow labour he adorned with fair carvings of the beasts and trees and flowers and birds that he knew about the waters of Mithrim, and ever among them was the Swan the chief, for Tuor loved this emblem and it became the sign of himself, his kindred and folk thereafter.<hr></blockquote>On his entrance to Gondolin Tuor claims:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am Tuor son of Peleg son of Indor of the house of the Swan of the sons of the Men of the North who live far hence, ...<hr></blockquote>Within Gondolin:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's ring was wrought on his shield;<hr></blockquote>Of the name of Tuor's "house":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and the bodyguard of Tuor, the folk of the Wing, was accounted the twelfth.<hr></blockquote>The phrases "folk of the Wing" and "guard of the Wing", "my men of the Wing" are also used later in the account. It is not clear then what Tolkien means by "House of the Swan". It might be that he changed his mind in the midst of writing, as he was wont to do, and decided that the Swan was a token of Tuor's ancestral lineage, not a symbol he himself had adopted. Or it might be that it was the custom to name oneself fully by giving the name of one's father and grandfather, and then the "House" that one belonged to. Since Tuor lives solitary, not connected to any other "House", he belonged then only to his own House, and since his last permanent dwelling was ornamented with carved swans, he might well say, in an attempt not to appear altogether rustic and uncouth, that he is of the "House of the Swan". "House" does not imply a necessary blood relationship. In Gondolin Tuor has his own House of the Wing to which many Elves belong. In the later "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Voronwë claims to be of the "House of Turgon", though he could not be of very close kin to Turgon. In LR Gildor Inglorion of the "House of Finrod" may be only declaring that he belongs to a House named from Finrod, perhaps mostly the remnant of Finrod's House in Nargothrond, or a House whose core was made up of Elves who had formally dwelt in Nargothrond, not that he is of close kin to Finrod. In any case, no later reference indicates any connection between the symbol of a swan or swan's wing and Tuor's ancestry. "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" drops all reference to the swan-prowed boat and to Tuor's building a house with swan carvings. When he sees the swans that he will follow to his destiny, we are told rather: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Now Tuor loved swans, which he knew on the grey pools of Mithrim; and the swan moreover had been the token of Annael and his foster-folk.<hr></blockquote>When Tuor enters Vinyamar and sees the arms and shield with a swan's wing thereon, he says:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'By this token I will take these arms unto myself, and upon myself whatsoever doom they bear.'<hr></blockquote>Tuor takes the swan's wing on the shield as an omen from his own particular love of swans, because they were the token of Annael and his foster-folk to whom he belonged, and because (I would assume) he has been led to them by swans. If "House of the Swan" is let stand, then it must refer to Annael and his people, and to Tuor insomuch as he was one of those people and may still feel so. Tuor seems to be one well suited to solitary life, but it would be reasonable that eventually he would indeed have gone to the south in search of Annael and his people had Ulmo not intervened. We might* even reinstate the building of Tuor's house, though now inland by the marshes of Linaewen rather then on the coast at Falasquil, and let "House of the Swan" also stand in relation to this house as I have indicated might have been Tolkien's meaning. Or we might change the phrase to "fosterling of the House of the Swan", or something similar. Changing it to "House of Hador" is a likely substitution. At the time of the primitive "Fall of Gondolin" no such House existed, and nothing indicates what Tuor's affiliaton was with other Men, but in the later background and genealogy it would somewhat surprising for him not to announce that he was of the House of Hador. We could also simply drop the phrase as probably no longer valid. I don't see any of these solutions as necessarily more right than another, which is unfortunate. Perhaps one here goes by the rule of don't change anything you don't have to change, and so leave it untouched for the reader to misunderstand. Thorondor on the Iron Mountains That Thorondor (for so I shall name him here ignoring the variation in texts) dwelt on Thangorodrim, or at least on the Iron Mountains from which Thangorodrim jutted out, is an early concept. In BoLT 1, chapter IV "The Theft of Melko":<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... and that was most bitter when Sorontur and his folk fared to the Iron Mountains and there abode, watching all that Melko did.<hr></blockquote>In The Shaping of Middle-earth* (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 8:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... and sends them under their king Thorndor to dwell in the crags of the North and watch Morgoth. The eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people.<hr></blockquote>This account remains essentially the same through the texts of the Silmarillion* tradition to the account in The Lost Road (HoME 5), VI Quenta Silmarillion, §93:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... had sent forth the race of Eagles. Thorondor was their king. And Manwë commanded them to dwell in the crags of the North, and keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë; and they hindered the deeds of Morgoth.<hr></blockquote>There are no later emendations of this text. But none of the texts in this line give Thorondor's actual dwelling place. That Thorondor was not dwelling on the Encircling Mountains from the beginning first appears as part of the Silmarillion* tradition in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), II The Earliest 'Silmarillion', 15 telling of the founding of Gondolin after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Thorndor King of Eagles removes his eyries to the Northern heights of the encircling mountains and guards them against Orc-spies.<hr></blockquote>The passage is later expanded in ibid., III The Quenta, §15 in the Q II version:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In those days Thorndor King of Eagles removed his eyries from Thangorodrim, because of the power of Morgoth, and the stench and fumes, and the evil of the dark clouds that lay now ever upon the mountain-towers above his cavernous halls. But Thorndor dwelt upon the northward heights above the Encircling Mountains, and he kept watch and saw many things, sitting upon the cairn of King Fingolfin.<hr></blockquote>Here explicitly re-emerges the BoLT tale that Thorondor dwelt on the Iron Mountains, indeed, as we are told for the first* time, on Thangorodrim itself. Soon after this Tolkien decided to place the foundation of Gondolin long before the breaking of the Siege, and does so in a brief note under year 50 in "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand". No mention of Thorondor or the eagles are made at this point (and perhaps in so brief an annal we should not expect them to be). All later tales of the foundation of Gondolin are expansions of this annal showing no influence in their wording from the earlier accounts of its foundation after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. A mention of Thorondor and his eagles might have been lost for this reason. There is only the inconclusive mention in "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin": in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, 12 "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin":<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor.<hr></blockquote>But the presence of eagles near Gondolin was always an important feature, and one might expect Tolkien to use a word such as "dwell" rather than "came" and to introduce their guardianship of Gondolin if he thought they had their eyries there at that time. This is the latest account of the founding of Gondor and a very finished and polished text. So if they were not dwelling in Crissaegrim then, when did they begin to dwell there? That Thorondor took the body of Fingolfin to a mountain-top above Tumladen is already found in the "Lay of Leithien" Canto XII, and is taken up in The Shaping of Middle-earth* (HoME 4), III The Quenta, 9. His presence at the battle is unexplained; but if he was then thought to be dwelling on Thangorodrim it does not need to be. Thorondor carries of Fingolfin's body to a mountain-peak which by chance is close by where Gondolin will be founded by Fingolfin's son Turgon many years later. Perhaps to reduce this element of chance in the The Lost Road (HoME 5), Quenta Silmarillion, §147, Thorondor is protrayed as dwelling in the Encircling Mountains at the time of the battle and only coming to the battlefield late after Fingolfin's death:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of Gochressiel, and he stooped upon Morgoth, ...<hr></blockquote>This account of the death of Fingolfin is the last one Tolkien made. Christopher Tolkien provides the final revisions to this part of the Silmarillion* in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 15 "Of the Ruin of Berleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin". The only pertinent emendation is a manuscript change of Gochressiel to Crissaegrim which is taken up in the typescript Christopher Tolkien calls LQ1. Christopher Tolkien writes of the typescript in Morgoth's Ring* in his introduction to Part Three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> It seems virtually certain that it was made in 1951(-2).<hr></blockquote>This material was then retyped as QS2 about 1957. However Christopher Tolkien notes in his commentary on the material in this section in The War of the Jewels that much of the correction here is very casual. In particular:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> The only alterations that my father made to the passage in LQ2, however, were the replacement of Gumlin by Galdor and Haleth by Halmir*** thus retaining the long since rejected story while substituting the new names that had entered with the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West. This was obviously not his intention (probably he altered the names rapidly throughout the chapter without considering the content in this paragraph), and indeed he marked the passage in the margin with an X and noted against it 'This is incorrect story. See Annals and tale of Túrin'.<hr></blockquote>Of the date of the tale "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" Christopher Tolkien in UT only says in the introduction:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> It seems very likely that this was written in 1951, when The Lord of the Rings* was finished but its publication doubtful.<hr></blockquote>In the Grey Annals §111 and §299 material in agreement with "Of Tuor" is inserted to replace older accounts. Presumably at the same time a new rider which Christopher Tolkien supplies in The Later Quenta Silmarillion as "Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin" was created containing much of the same material word-for-word. This appears in its proper place in LQ1. So LQ1 agrees in all respects with the revisions introduced in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" except for Voronwë's statement that Thorondor's folk "dwelt once even on Thangorodrim ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and dwell now in the Mountains of Turgon since the fall of Fingolfin." Considering the casual and incomplete nature of the corrections to LQ1 and especially LQ2 it is not now clear to me that Voronwë's claim can be disregarded. That is, in general LQ 1 and LQ 2 can be trusted for what they change, but not always for what they retain. Conclusions: ***1. I see no indication that the dwelling of Thorondor and his people on Thangorodrim was ever discarded. **2. It seems to me to be equally valid to remove "ere Morgoth grew so mighty" and "now" and "since the fall of Fingolfin" from Voronwë's speech, or to remove "from Crissaegrim" from the QS77 account. In the late LQ1 and LQ2 manuscripts Tolkien often did correct word-forms without properly correcting the story, while "Of Tuor" is a fully considered revision and a full account (not a summary) to which in every other respect all later material is brought into accord. (I may say that it also seems more sensible that Thorondor would fly a short distance from an eyrie on Thangorodrim or the Iron Mountains to the battlefield then all the way from Crissaegrim. What tidings would have come to him in time that he would know to make that flight?) Altogether now: "WHO CARES?!!!!!!" </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/24/01 8:39:23 pm*

06-26-2001, 07:51 PM	#46
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 660</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> 3 points I think Jallanite that I agree w/ you on all counts. As for Tuor representing himself as of the House of Hador or as a fosterling of the House of the Swan - either can work as can deleting any reference. Since JRRT has him declaring himself which is common practice in M-E then retaining it in some form makes since. He was proud [rightfully] of both. Hador is most clearcut as there is no doubt he could have said that and on one other occasion I think he does in the hidden entrance saying something like 'I am told that these names [Huor/Hador] are not unknown in Gondolin. Def. the kind of decision we can make as we go thru the text paragraph by P. or however we do it. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-02-2001, 12:01 AM	#47
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 667</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> time for Voting ? Shall we make our first formal decision ? I was reading over the earlier pages of this thread and saw that we will need to decide the Ork/Orc question very soon into FoG, so i propose that we use our poll function in the TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH forum - just to get folks plugged in and rolling w/ the process. I will hold off - awaiting your replies. -lindil </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-06-2001, 07:40 AM	#48
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 668</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin hmm, maybe everyone [but telchar ]is on vacation? I propose that we begin a few things w/ actual work on the texts: I> begin inserting Jallanite's revisions into the Lost Tales version. then vote on the changes he felt were more questionable. II> Work on the difficult interchange between the UT and LT/77/IV versions where Tuor gives his message and see's the city etc. I propose calling this section 'the changeover' or ' CO' as I imagine reference to it will occur frequently for awhile. III> dividing the LT version into sections according to the previously given outline [pengolodh's ? Aiwendil's?] inserting the later material as needed, in rough form. For each of the sections above 1-3 I suggest there be one or if more are interested 2 leaders , 1 of whom does the posting on the TFE forum [and will be the editor ] they will create the rough material that when finished we can all [sect. IV] make proposals and vote on ammendments. IV> go over everything / a fine tooth comb as above. Sound workable? Better idea's? Want to head up a section? -lindil </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-08-2001, 07:41 AM	#50
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 34</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin Suggested emendations to Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel The poem is found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. These are editorial changes to put the poem in suitable form to fit with late versions of the Silmarillion conceptions. Remove line 7a: But Wade of the Helsings**wearyhearted "Tûr" to "Tuor" in line 8. "Tumladin" to "Tumladen" in line 12. Line 15 from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of Cristhorn was cloven,the Cleft of Eagles,<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> of the Cleft was cloven,*Cirith Thoronath,<hr></blockquote>"Melko" to "Morgoth" in line 19. "Thornsir" to "Thoronhir" in line 25. Tolkien gave two replacement lines in the notes which avoid the Elvish name "Thornsir", but the second is incomplete and so these replacements cannot be used. The form Thornsir* is puzzling as a contraction into one word of the FG form Thorn Sir. One would expect * Thornhir, just as Minhirath 'Between the rivers' presumably derives from min + * siriath. Also see Limhîr or Limhir 'clear / sparkling river' from lim + sîr in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), references in the index. Hence my suggested standard Sindarin form * Thoronhir. Possibly assimilation rules were different in early Gnomish. "thirty moons" to "thwarting mazes" in line 26. In the later chronology a timing of thirty (or even thirteen) months is utterly impossible. One could use "three moons" perhaps, but the exact number of months taken to pass from the Cirith Thoronath to finding of Sirion is not stated elsewhere, and I would rather not invent a number here just for the alliteration. But in the FG account is found "wandering in the wastes" and "they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks". For this "thwarting mazes" does well. "Gods" to "Powers" in line 30. Tolkien generally ceases to use of "Gods" for the "Valar" in later narrative writing except when speaking particularly of Men or when untutored Men are speaking. ".. the Vanished Isles" to "past the Vanished Isle" in line 31. Christopher Tolkien could not interpret the word, but "past" is a good guess from sense required, and the word seems to have been a short one. The "Vanished Isles", plural, is hard to understand. The Magic Isles are not vanished but accessible, though those who disembark there fall into enchanted sleep. But Eressëa could be entitled "Vanished Isle", singular, as no longer attainable from Middle-earth because of the enchantments placed on the Sea before it during the Hiding of Valinor. Turgon's mariners who sought to reach to Valinor would have been well aware of this. The plural form might be an error by JRRT or a misreading by CT. "... the sweet breezes" to "then the sweet breezes" in line 35 as thought a possible reading by CT. "and the dew enchanted" to "and the dew enchanted*drenched their feet." in line 37. This completion to the last half-line of the fragment is suggested by line 70 of "The Horns of Ylmir":<blockquote>Quote:*<hr> Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.<hr></blockquote> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 3:23:48 pm*

07-08-2001, 10:01 AM	#51
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 35</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin Suggested changes to the poem "The Horns of Ylmir" This poem is found in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, Appendix 2. Lines 13 to 66 are a poem about a violent rising tide complete in itself. The poem was called The Tides and was annotated Dec. 4 1914 and On the Cornish Coast. Later JRRT added lines 1-12 and 67-74 to provide a frame to present the original poem as a vision seen by Tuor when he heard the horns of Ulmo in the Land of Willows. The new beginning and conclusion are tightly bound to the BoLT version of the Tuor story where Tuor first hears Ulmo's horns while standing knee-deep in the grass of the Land of Willows at twilight and senses no more the sounds, sights and odors of that land. He is transported in his mind to a rocky seacoast and sees, hears, and smells the sea. Then he awakens and finds himself still in the inland grasses among the willows. In the new Tuor Ulmo's meeting with Tuor occured inland but right on the seacoast as a storm arose. Only after Ulmo gave Tuor his message did he blow on his horn, but not in long playing of musics but in "a single great note". Since Tuor in this version is already on just such a stormy seacoast such as he saw in his vision in the previous version, the vision called forth in the new version must be changed. Now instead Tuor sees all the waters of the world, then the depths of the Sea, and then the coast of Valinor under Oiolossë, suddenly awakening to the thunder of the storm. The poem of course can be used without the introductory and concluding lines, making only the emendation of "roaring" to "rolling" as given by CT in this note for line 21 and the nomalizing change of Ylmir to Ulmo. This is certainly the most conservative solution. I do however have some suggestions for possible modification of the introduction and conclusion. The first four lines are incompatible and must be dropped. The next six I change (following also the emendation in the notes of "'Twas" to "It was&quot from:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave 'Twas was in the Land of Willows that once Ylmir came at eve. In the twilight by the river on a hollow thing of shell He made immortal music, till my heart beneath his spell Was broken in the twilight, and the meadows faded dim To great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> <u>To sea</u> musics <u>ringing</u> magic that <u>the wind and wave can</u> weave* It was in the <u>l</u>and of <u>Nevrast</u> that once <u>Ulmo</u> came at eve. In the twilight <u>on</u> the <u>sea-strand through</u> a hollow thing of shell He <u>blew one long and piercing note*</u> my heart beneath his spell Was broken in the twilight, and the <u>storm-cold</u> faded dim <u>On</u> great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim.<hr></blockquote>The conclusion I emend differently by changing most of it from past tense to present tense. Tuor now proclaims his current situation in the Land of Willows where again the sea-longing has come upon him, thus from:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands* Far, far-off, conches calling* lo! I stood in the sweet lands, And the meadows were about me where the weeping willows grew, Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew. Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams. 'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath Of the Horns of Ylmir calling* and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>to:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands * Far, far-off, conches calling <u>now</u> I st<u>an</u>d in the sweet lands, And the meadows <u>a</u>re about me <u>with</u> the weeping willows <u>too</u>, Where the long grass stir<u>s</u> beside me, and my feet <u>a</u>re drenched with dew. Only the reeds <u>a</u>re rustling, but a mist l<u>ies</u> on the streams Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams. 'T<u>i</u>s in the Land of Willows that I <u>hear</u> th'unfathomed breath Of the Horns of <u>Ulmo</u> calling and shall hear them till my death.<hr></blockquote>Let others now comment and improve and suggest different changes ** or say perhaps such emendations are too great to be allowed in this project. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 3:36:00 pm

07-08-2001, 12:50 PM	#52
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 670</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Jallanite's sugesstions well I can see you havn't posted much in a bit. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> I read through everything once and am going to need a couple more readings I think, before responding in substance. If I have any thing to offer[ which after the first reading I doubt!]. One question - You are proposing the above revisions as a base text w/ possible stylistic revisions to follow? One general comment. I favor breaking off the FoG at Nan - Tasarinien and puttting everything re: the havens into the final chapter to give it a bit more length as the last chapter and the ruin of doriath will be disproportionately short. awesome work Jallanite- am I right in suspecting you have <u>no</u> children? <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> --lindil </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/8/01 6:37:06 pm __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-08-2001, 03:50 PM	#53
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 37</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Jallanite's sugestions - His response As to exact assignment of chapters, I think that awaits a look at the finished materials to see how things flow. For now this is the "Fall of Gondolin", an independent work, and includes as an epilogue narrative up to the departure of Tuor and Idril. I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons would be facing different issues altogether than what I was doing: making a list of possible emendations and mergings of source texts to produce a base document. If I was merging two texts of approximately equal size in very different styles I would probably have had to face that problem. The only thing I might have found bothersome stylistically in combining texts was the issue of capitalization: when to use "north" and when to use "North", when to use "sea" and when to use "Sea" for example. I ignored the issue and simply followed the document I was using as a source. Seeing if general rules can be ascertained from JRRT's useage might be worth trying. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/8/01 8:34:10 pm

07-09-2001, 08:18 AM	#54
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 671</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Jallanite's sugestions - lindil's response Jallanite: "I was not planning to suggest any stylistic changes, merely indicating that changing text for stylistic reasons would be facing different issues altogether than what I was doing: making a list of possible emendations and mergings of source texts to produce a base document." lindil:A very good idea and one I had not thought of. A couple of things 1> we seem to be short handed these days and as there has not been much response to my q's [orks, how to proceed, please check in, etc.] whether from folks being annoyed confused or preoccupied I think gpoing ahead w/ what you are working on is the best option . I will attempt some stylistic editing by pasting your versions into a new copy of FoG [the later sections] in the TftE forum. Will try and read over your work again and to get to work on stylistic editing tonight but we shall see... </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-10-2001, 09:00 AM	#55
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 38</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ? - revising the Fall of Gondolin Overall, I agree with most of what you've done, jallanite. Good work. A few notes: C01 - Migth we also consider making this into one balrog instead of deleting them entirely? C09 - My understanding of CRT's note in 'Wanderings' is that he believes that the story of the Fire-drake waiting for them outside was abandoned, and replaced with a story where the Way of Escape somehow collapsed. I'm not sure if I agree with this, but we will have to agree with 'Wanderings'. Somehow the Way of Escape must be closed. But I don't see any indication that NO ONE tried to use the Way of Escape. C10 - I think I'm missing something here. Why do we need to get rid of 'the plain was full of mists'? C11 - I wonder if this addition is really necessary. I think it makes the prose slightly more awkward, though it's really pretty trivial. C18 - If the fall of Gondolin occurred at midsummer, then a year and a half could pass before the arrival at Sirion. I think that gives us room to keep the year of wandering and the arrival at Nan-tathren the following summer. C23 - I like this idea a lot, but I don't know if it's appropriate for this project. I suppose this is a matter for some consideration, and it bears on the question of our ultimate objective. C25 - Same as above; though we know that the song should be here, I don't know if we should take the liberty of altering it. C31 - I think this would be the best place to add the Elfstone. At any rate, it should be mentioned along with the Silmaril as a cause of prosperity. C33 - Are the Mermaids really appropriate? I think this is one element we can be virtually certain would be removed. C34 - This is good, if we assume that there are stylistic changes still to be made. Otherwise, I think the choppy, outline-style is inappropriate, and I'd suggest relying more on Q30 and QS77. On the Eagles: I don't think it's necessary to change the role of the Eagles. True, they were dedicated to the protection of Gondolin; but I think this had more to do with killing the occasional Orc that came near it than with engaging in a full-scale battle. They didn't help in any other battle except the War of Wrath. I agree with most of your changes to the alliterative fragment of Earendil and to the Horns of Ulmo; I personally like the idea of their being included, but I'm not sure if it's within the scope of the project. On stylistic changes: I really think these are necessary. At the very least, we should eliminate the present tense that occasionally appears in the Lost Tales. </p>

07-10-2001, 09:24 PM	#56
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments on Comments Re your comments, Aiwendil: C01 My guiding principle was and is to get rid of particular masses of Balrogs everywhere and anywhere by any method. Just dropping the references is easiest (which may not mean best!) If there are too few when all is done, then bring some (or all?) back. I actually don't think we need to drop any. The late reference to seven can be considered another unworkable proposed change. But I do think JRRT did let the Balrogs get away from him. He writes "... for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men", and then slaughters them like the Orks they command. Not much hope of keeping them down to seven even with easy omissions, or actually to six since one is for some reason out on the northern marches waiting for Glorfindel to kill him. Had that note about the seven never appeared, would we care? Certainly these beings are mostly not of the power of Durin's Bane, but must all Balrogs be alike in power? Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft, eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of multitudes C09 I find no reference anywhere to a collapse of the Way of Escape, merely: "the Dry Gate was blocked and the arched gate was buried." CT states in note 28 to "Wanderings" that his dropping the Way of Escape was based on this single and singular statement. I can't find any other passage bearing on the issue. CT's invention of a purposeful closing by Turgon makes good sense in the context. But you are right that an attempt to use the Way might have been made, if it was still openable. So we have to decide, with no evidence either way that I can see, Sigh! whether it was permanently closed, perhaps by forced collapse of the tunnel, or whether Turgon had only closed the outside wall, but left it able to be broken open from inside again if there was need or he wished the gate to exist again. Possibly the principle of not rejecting anything that JRRT wrote that is not contradicted by his own writing applies here. He relates that the gate was closed in one place, but that the Way of Escape was used in another, and there is no real contradiction if the Way was reasonably easy to re-open from the inside: say a day's work with pickaxes and shovels for a large tast force and removal of a binding spell? "We made it, we're out! My, what big teeth the exit has!" C10 This is a bit complex. My logic was that in recasting the FB sentence in Q30 JRRT replaced FG "the plain was full of mists" with Q30 "fell upon the vale in mournful mists" and FG "and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king" is replaced by Q30 "The fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North". The Q30 sentence thus replaces the original with the two elements reversed, but I felt it reasonable and in accord with the principles to re-insert into the the Q30 sentence the missing informaton that this had never happened before, as there's nothing to indicate that information was dropped for any reason other than general compression. Q30 is certainly better here as well as being later: smoke from burning would have been contributing to the "mist" and there is no need of a "perchance" to relate the true mist to the turning of the fountain(s) to steam. We can re-add the somewhat redundant "the plain was full of mists" alongside its replacement. It really doesn't matter. C11 The addition of "many" twice is only necessary as a change in wording by JRRT in the later Q30 version. I was also going to change "stricken" to "wounded" following the Q30 corresponding sentence, and then noticed that "wounded" does occur three sentences later in FG material that can still be considered part of the material summarized by the Q30 sentence, and so accepted this later use of "wounded" to equal the word "wounded" in Q30. Pedantic and somewhat silly and artificial considerations! Yet for each Q30 sentence I had to decide to what extent it was a summary of FG and to what extent original addition, and whether different wording was a result of it being a summary or a true later change. That's the way the game has to be played. The decisions must be made. Fortunately most of them don't matter: any mixture of wording from the two sources reads equally well. C18 I made an unwarranted assumption here! FG states: "But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of willows in years after and fared away to sea, <u>when spring set celandine in the meads</u> and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel, ..." I used this to date to the spring the Q30 "feast in memory of Gondolin" and subsequent removal to the Sea. All annals which mention the fall of Gondolin place the arrival of Tuor and the fugitives at the mouth of Sirion in the following year. So either the FG timing of over a year for the wandering in the mountains or the FG spring dating for the departure from the Land of Willows must be removed. Or both? I see nothing to push definitely one way or the other. I suspect that one reason JRRT did have the fugutives escape to the north rather than the south was that a northern route led them into wilder territory on the edge of Dorthonion which Morgoth held. That might support the year of wandering. But that still seems a large space of time to wander in, particular if they are in part being guided by Eagles. Sigh! Even eight months of wandering seems a lot, but that would still get them to Nan-tathren in plenty of time to leave again in the spring. Aesthetically I like the note about the spring, so will leave that for now as there is no other logic I can see to pull one way or the other otherwise. C23 The words in the lay "all this have others**in ancient stories / and songs unfolded,but say I further" are a problem in my suggested setting at the festival. If used here, as a sample of festival song, then the final lines, 32-38, should be dropped. Another possiblity is to place it just after the arrival in Nan-tathren (where the fragment ends) without particular explanation. It just appear as a poetic fragment giving a retrospective summary of the parts of the tale previously related. If we break up the Fall into chapters, it could start one of them. These all just suggestions. It should be fitted in somewhere I feel. C25 Agreed (sadly) on the daring emendations if others think them too bold. We may have to limit Tuor's recitation to the core poem which presents no problems and drop introduction or conclusion or both. But maybe others can work from what I've started or try some different tack. C31** You are right! The Elessar has to be mentioned here! But I just can't get any full account to fit here without rewriting or paraphrasing. I've now edited my post to at least mention it at this point, with the assumption that something about it will be fitted in earlier, and of course later. Again, if someone else sees a way, please contribute. C33 On mermaids, anything written by Tolkien is not to be disregarded unless contradicted by later ideas or in error, etc. I don't know that he did drop them. The late Eärendil information is so frustratingly sketchy, almost worse than the early material. Any scrap of information is important. And they appear in four separate notes. I don't imagine Tolkien was talking about fish-tailed women if that is what bothers. I see something along the lines of the Nereids and Okeanids of Greek myth. But who knows? C34 Trying to get the other stuff into Q30 was the problem. On any of this mixed material, you or anyone are welcome rework it to read better and still include all the material. With multiple source passages I often stopped at the point, tired but happy, where I had finally managed to fit all the material in somewhere. The historical present is a strange thing. People fall into it automatically when actually telling a story: "So I went to the store. And as I'm going in the door, I see this woman, and she looks at me funny. So I say 'Hi' to her. And then she says 'Hi' to me". But this natural English (and medieval French) style of narrative is drummed out of peoples' heads as improper grammar by English teachers who don't know any better, influenced by grammarians of three hundred years ago who thought Latin grammar was the model for every language, especially for barbaric non-Romance languages, and persuaded writers to drop the historical present in narrative writing as non-Latin, and so wrong. But medieval French narrative is actually written that way, jumping delightfully from vivid present tense, to past tense for a narrative bridge, and then back to the present again. And much late medieval English prose follows suit. But produce samples of improvements to Tolkien's writing if you wish. </p>

07-10-2001, 11:41 PM	#57
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 677</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments on Comments unfortunately my brain is not up to the task at hand of reviewing both J and A'a work. I will mention a thought that has occured a few times to me lately. what does anyone think of using [some of] Bilbo's cheeky Earendil poem to fill in gaps of Earendil's voyage. It could be explained [poorly but truthfully] as the only source for the journeys of E. which have come down to us. goodnight <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000000e Creation of a Revised Silmarillion</a> Lindil's Tolkien/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. 'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-11-2001, 11:54 AM	#58
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments on Comments C01: I agree; we'll all need to come to some kind of a better consensus on the balrog issue. Personally, I also would rather ignore the note on '7'. C09: My mistake; a quick glance at WotJ was apparently not sufficient review for me. Anyway, my inclination would be, as you said, to go with a closing of the Way and possible reopening from inside, as that's the only reading where BoLT and WotJ can be made to agree. C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea was. C18: This is tricky. We have, it seems, a simple choice: 1. compress the year of wandering, or 2. change the season of the journey to Sirion. I'd rather not change both, though others may differ. Each has points in its favor: 1. a. If we compress the wandering, we make the arrival at Sirion the next year more plausible, because otherwise we have only at most a few months for them to dwell in Nan-tathren and go to the havens; b. We keep the aesthetic point of their leaving in spring. 2. a. There's nothing specific in later writings that denies a year of wandering; I don't think that the TY material can be considered to do this; b. the passage from which comes the mention of spring is already contradicted by the 'in years after', making me perhaps a little more inclined to cut this. It's a small but difficult issue, and I think it requires a vote. C23: I think perhaps if we use it, it would be better not used as a festival song. My reasoning: the poem itself is basically canon, 'true' within the legendarium; it therefore involves no conjecture, no matter of decision (with regard to the canon) on our part to include it. However, it is not a known fact that exactly such a song was sung at the festival; that would be mere speculation on our part, and therefore inadvisable. C25: It's not that I dislike your changes; it's merely that I'm not sure if we should make changes at all. I would rather like to include as much of the poem as possible, as emended. C31: Perhaps I'll take a closer look at this later; for now, I'm busy enough already, and I'm also trying to work on some kind of transition between UT and FG. C33: I suppose you're right, on principle. He never contradicted them later, so they should be kept. However, I really do get the feeling that they were dropped, not merely omitted. C34: I think we should decide soon whether style changes are permitted. If so, this is fine. If not, we'll either have to simply exclude certain things because we can't fit them in grammatically, or we'll have a very uneven finished product. Re: the historical present: I'm not debating it's validity; but all traces of it were excised in the later Silmarillions. I think it's a little like the frequent use of 'Gods' to describe the Valar: we should eliminate it based on its omission in later writings. I don't think it'll be hard; all we need do is change present to past. Lindil: I think that whatever we do with Earendil it's going to be a problem. There will simply be a huge gap in style between Tuor and Earendil; that's unavoidable without a massive creative rewrite. Same thing for the Ruin of Doriath between the Wanderings of Hurin and the Quenta. I think trying to incorporate Bilbo's song might end up being more trouble than it's worth, and in any case it won't solve the problem. </p>

07-12-2001, 07:08 AM	#59
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 682</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments on Comments FG-C01 (FG): B! Jallanite: Still, my policy will be extreme in the first draft, eliminating as much as possible of any suggestions of multitudes lindil: ok - it is def. a point to revisited.I now see that you are right in supposing that 7 is not workable [w/ the references in the battles of beleriand and what remained in the QS30 . FG-C02 lindil: yea FG-C03 - 4 lindil: yea FG-C05 (FG): There is no mention in any text later than FG ... lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict? FG-C06 (FG): Rewording: Quote: Gling[a]l was {withered} melted to the stock and B[elthi]l was blackened utterly, and the king's tower was beset. lindil: how about destroyed or burnt to the stock . Melted to the stock seems awkward. but agreed in obvious need to emmend. FG-C07 (FG, Q30): lindil: yea FG-C08 (FG): D! Quote: Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s. lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...' FG-C09 lindil: I agree w/ Aiwendil that the whole way of escape issue will prob need a poll/vote. FG-C10 (FG, Q30): Rewording: aiwendil:C10: Ah. Looks good, I just wasn't sure at first what the idea was. lindil : I am still not sure what did not work in the original. FG-C11 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea FG-C12 (FG, Q30): lindil: yea FG-C13 see above FG-C14 (FG):. Omit here: lindil yea , work in earlier as per suggestion FG-C15 (FG, Q30): Rewording: lindil: yea FG-C16 (FG, Q30): lindil:yea FG-C17 (FG):lindil: yea FG-C18 I favor altering as necessary to keep the arrival in spring as it seems important as a healing time of year after a long wandering. FG-C19 (FG): see above FG-C20 (FG): lindil : yea FG-C21 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea FG-C22 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea FG-C23 (FG, Q30): lindil : yea FG-C24 (Q30):lindil : yea FG-C26 (FG, Q30): Rewording: Quote: The voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned with a thirst the deeper for years of stifling{;}, <in his heart and in his son's. Wherefore {all that host} <the most part of the people> arose at his bidding, and {got them} <they removed> down Sirion to the Sea. lindil : can we not keep 'all that host'? I would favor 'journeyed' instead of 'removed' FG-C27 (FG, Q30): lindil: I need to look at this one more ... FG-C28 (FG): Omission of anachronistic listing of cities as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as a very late marginal note: true - but if we are dealing w/ much material that came from Aelfwine via Pegolodh and Rumil via eressea and JRRT never seemed to abandon the idea then there is room for eriol's comments as part of what has come to us. although I think JRRT would have dropped it as he seemed to drop nearly all references to to later historical ages , once he was past the 'kids fairy-tale' phase of the Hobbit and early FotR. Amazons [for the female haladin warriors] in the Tale of the Druedain [UT] is an exception that comes to mind. FG-C29 (FG, Q30, TEN(i)): I already stated my preference for less Gondolin and more earendil as far as deciding where to put the transitionary material, but this can be put off till the rest of the tale is in order. and then maybe we will have a better sense of where the 'natural ' divisions are. FG-C30 (PG, SF, QS77): Quote: Ereinion Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and dwelt now at Sirion's Mouth, was named High King of the Noldor there. lindil yea to the above. I would save the later material for the war of the last alliance. as we are never given a scene of Gil-Galad fighting in the first age.I like very much the idea of incorporating the Shibboleth material for the descriptions of the Noldorin prince, just think this one would work better later. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height. FG-C31 (Q30, AB 2, Elessar, QS77): lindil: I need to read up on this more. FG-C32 (Q30): In the pleading of Ulmo there are stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30 version to the QS77 version, probably changes made by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons, and to be ignored unless someone can find other sources. Stick to Q30 here. lindil : I will have to read the section in ques. butin general I am not against CRT's stylistic edit's as they often seem to be of a high-quality.I am concerned when he edit's to omit things like Wandering of Hurin and details of the Narn and. such as far as I can go now. I apologize if i have not cross-referenced w/ the later comments sufficiently. <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000000e Creation of a Revised Silmarillion</a> Lindil's Tolkien/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. 'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'.* </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-12-2001, 08:59 AM	#60
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 40</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments on Comments <<lindil: I find the uttering and remembering of the prophecy chilling, it shows how deep pride and blindness can go [as if Ulmo'es warning were not enough. Just because it does not show up later I see no reason to drop it. Does it conflict?>> I think as we have the exact words of the prophecy in AAm and LQ, we must accept those as the canonical exact words. Anyway, I always found the idea rather silly: why would you name a city Gondolin when the words 'Great is the fall of Gondolin' are etched in your mind? <<Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of iron} fare in and out of its gates, and great is the sack of the Balrogs and Or[k]s. lindil: retaining monsters is a little odd,JRRT does not use it at all to my recollection as a collective name for evil creatures in the later writings I would go w/ ' an evil horde' or 'trolls and orcs fare in ...'>> I don't see a problem with the word 'monsters', per se; actually I rather like it. It could be taken to refer to trolls, orcs, dragons, or whatever. Also, as the meaning here is clearly NOT simply 'orcs' or 'trolls', I don't think it should be replaced with a specific reference. </p>

07-13-2001, 10:41 PM	#61
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 42</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments -- Comments getting less at last I have made editorial changes in my original post on the closing part of the "Fall of Gondolin" in light of comments made. I think it may be better for shorter comments to appear in that post rather than scattered about. I also comment here on some of the remarks and note where I have made changes in the original postings. If I don't comment it is because I am more or less in agreement, as least for today. C05I agree, Lindil, on the literary effect of Turgon shouting "Great is the Fall of Gondolin" and added below a possible way of saving it. Probably too fan fictional. C06Glingal, the tree of gold is "{withered} <melted> to the stock". Since the tree is a metal image, I thought "melted" to be the best word. "Destroyed" would do per Lindil's suggestion if others find "melted" awkward. I don't see the problem myself. I don't think "burnt" works with gold metal at all. Continue discussion? C08On replacing "monsters" with "Orcs and trolls": I'm not sure Tolkien uses "drake" either, or a number of other words outside of FG. But no other story deals with dragons of any kind to nearly this extent so we should expect find more dragon synonyms here. We really can't introduce "trolls". I personally see no problem with "monsters". If replaced with anything it should be "dragons" or "serpents" since that is what JRRT means by the word here and we have no reason or right to change that C10On mist in the valley. The original worked alright, but Q30 contains the same material rewritten in full, and so takes priority, and it also shows signs of careful and literary rewriting, e.g. "mounful mists". I see I missed some angle brackets here, and have added them. That was probably confusing things. C20On the wording of the "removal" from Nan-tathren. FG has "all that host" while the later Q30** has "the most part of the people", so that must take priority. JRRT has both changed the phrasing and decided that not all the people left Nan-tathren to follow Huor to Sirion. This last makes good sense, considering the beauty of Nan-tathren as described. As to "journeyed" for "removed", since JRRT uses "removed" we should keep it. The word "journeyed" does not occur here at all. We should use JRRT's own writing as much as possible, not a paraphrase of it. JRRT seems to have a purposely Biblical touch to it here as in KJV Numbers 33:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> 6And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. 7And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol. 8And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days'journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah. 9And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. 10And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea. 11And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin. 12And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah. 13And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush. 14And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink.<hr></blockquote> and so forth. C22I have changed the positioning of the mention of springtime from C27 to C22 and explained it in those entries. C23I have ommitted here the song fragment, moving its position to a new entry C21.1 with comments. This is tentative only of course. C28On the anachronistic cities: I post below the research I've done on the possibility of including Ælfwine and my conclusions. In any case, should a later marginal note be included in the main text, regardless of its source? C29On when the tale ends: Aiwendil created his breakdown of the tale to cover all the material in the Q77 "Fall of Gondolin" so might as well keep this for now, considering the material not covered by FG as a sort of epilogue. As Lindil says, we will see what emerges as to where it is best to break. C30The explanation of a name should probably be inserted usually when the person who bears it first appears, or first appears prominently. I would imagine in the Nargothrond material Ereinion would be simply mentioned by name, and probably without the epithet Gil-galad, as he plays no part in the tale as told. So this is really his first appearance on stage, though a very short one! This account of Gil-galad's name and armor could be used again in the Second Age material, probably when he first appears there rather than late in the War of the Last Alliance. It's such a magnificent introduction! I have removed from C30 the word "high" before "king" as I think this may be invalid CT or Guy Kay supposition. It doesn't occur in a source that I can find before Second Age material, and I doubt that anyone would want to claim the title of "High King" at this time in the First Age? C34 Departure of Tuor: Haven't gotten around to trying stylistic changes on this. Anyone else is welcome to do so. Possibly a little juggling of personal names and pronouns and some reweaving with a few ands and thens may fix it up. Again on the historical present ... yes, I don't see it at all in the later writings, but have only done a very cursory search. Possibly this might justify omitting it in BoLT material. But the problem I see with any stylistic changes is what is most annoying to one person is likely to be particular liked by another, especially in the matter if archaisms. The Prophecy of the Fall of Gondolin "Great is the fall of Gondolin!", and men shudder. In BoLT1* the story of the Prophecy of the North is given, ending with:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... and he foretold to them many of the evil adventures that after came to them, warning them against Melko, and at last he said: 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and none there understood for Turondo son of Nólemë was not yet upon Earth.<hr></blockquote>Lindil mentions the powerful effect of Turgon's cry here and wishes to retain it. In no later account is there any mention of a prophecy of the fall of Gondolin in either the giving of the Prophecy of the North or the story of the fall of Gondolin. The tale of the prophecy in QS77* only relates:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them;<hr></blockquote> but no actual words of this prophecy are given at all. Then follows the curse laid on the Noldor which Tolkien added to the prophecy, and that is given in full. Is the omission of the mention of Gondolin here purposeful, or the result of compression? The difficulty is to understand how Turgon and his people could have named his city Gondolin if this prophecy was well known. Normally in tales of the coming of a prophecied doom something happens, then someone recalls an obscure prophecy, and then for the first time the dread meaning of the prophecy is understood. This could be brought in here allowing a little fan fiction. I will postulate that the prophecy, spoken in Quenya, actually ended with "Great is the fall of the hidden rock!" Tolkien does tell us in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12, that Turgon really named his city in Quenya as Ondolindë* 'Singing Stone' (a metaphor for carved stone), but this was translated into Sindarin as Gondolin, and then interpreted by a kind of pun as Gond dolen 'Hidden Rock'. So during the sack, Turgon remembers suddenly the Quenya words of the prophecy and calls out in Sindarin, "Great is the fall of Gondolin!" Those who hear him now understand: their city is the hidden rock of the Prophecy of the North! Let me try this:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Amnon the prophet of old} [the Prophecy of the North], <u>saying:</u> < BoLT 1* 'Great is the fall of the <u>hidden rock</u>!">; but Tuor speaking wildly ...<hr></blockquote>Too creative to be allowed? Can anyone come up with anything better? Ælfwine Lindil suggests we might keep Ælfwine who at least in the 1950's in a large number of texts was still the medium through which Elvish tradition was preserved for Tolkien to translate. Can we keep Ælfwine? In the second edition to LR (1966) a "Note on Shire Records" was inserted following the Prologue, in which it was stated of the Red Book of Westmarch:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> But annexed to it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave him as a parting gift.<hr></blockquote>Somewhat later:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the chief importance of Findegil's copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1418, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. But since they were little used by Frodo, being almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days, no more is said of them here.<hr></blockquote>It has been largely assumed that this was now JRRT's purported source for The Silmarillion* and any other tales of Elvish or Mannish tradition of the first Three Ages he wished to present. In The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), near the end of chapter I, "The Prologue", CT notes:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> **The Note on the Shire Records* entered in the Second Edition. In one of his copies of the First Edition my father noted: 'Here should be inserted Note on the Shire Records'; but he wrote against this later: 'I have decided against this. It belongs to Preface to The Silmarillion.'<hr></blockquote>That JRRT would have placed this as part of the front matter to The Silmarillion is proof that the volumes annexed to the Red Book are indeed now put forward by him as the major source, and probably the sole source, of the tales of The Silmarillion. I believe no trace of Ælfwine can be found in any document later than the 1950's. Conclusion: Ælfwine in Tol Eressëa has been discarded, being replaced by Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell. One could keep Ælfwine for certain particular Elvish traditions I suppose, but which ones? It would be rather a comedown if the tale of his coming to Eressëa is told, and then all that follows are a few technical dialogues with that garulous bore Pengolodh. We could postulate that Sam brought a copy of the Red Book, including the Elvish translations, to Tol Eressëa, and that Ælfwine copied them all there, and so the Red Book comes through Ælfwine. I think this improbable. At most Æflwine is a sailor of whom a tale is told that he reached the Lonely Island and walked and talked with Elves. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/14/01 12:46:46 am

07-14-2001, 07:12 AM	#62
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 43</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate. This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of it in the account of Tuor's departure. Tuor for a time returned via Ilbranteloth (= Cirith Ninniach) to his old haunts by Asgon (= Lake Mithrim) per *TEN(vi):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'Tuor has sailed back to Falasquil and so back up Ilbranteloth to Asgon where he sits playing on his lonely harp on the islanded rock.'* This is marked with a query and an 'X' implying rejection of the idea.<hr></blockquote>Idril departs after Tuor in early versions. A suggested fate for her in *TEC:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Littleheart's gong awakens the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl.^6 6Struck out here: 'The sleeper is Idril but he does not know.'<hr></blockquote>Eärendil in Mandos per *TEC:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor is gone to Valinor and nought is known of Idril or of Elwing.<hr></blockquote>Tuor and Idril seemingly identified with the planet Mercury (similar to last mention of Elwing in QS77) per TEC:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tuor and Idril some say sail now in Swanwing and may be seen going swift down the wind at dawn and dusk.<hr></blockquote>Tuor dwells with Ulmo in TEN(xviii):<blockquote>Quote:*<hr> When Eärendel comes to Mandos he finds that Tuor is ' not* in Valinor, or Erumáni, and neither Elves nor Ainu know where he is. (He is with Ulmo.)'<hr></blockquote> </p>

07-14-2001, 12:42 PM	#63
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 685</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments -- Scattered notes on Tuor and Idril's fate. "This is probably all to be rejected, at least for including any of it in the account of Tuor's departure." I think you are right. <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000000e Creation of a Revised Silmarillion</a> Lindil's Tolkien/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a>, http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</A>. 'In the begining was the Word. And the Word was with God.And the Word is God'. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

07-23-2001, 04:45 PM	#64
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 45</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin <u>The Transition</u> Here I assume that we will follow the later 'Tuor' in Unfinished Tales as far as it goes; I thus start with the transition immediately following the last line of this text, "Then Ecthelion said at last: 'Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself.'" I refer to this text as Tuor; as usual, FG refers to the Lost Tales version, Q30 refers to the Quenta Noldorinwa, and QS77 refers to the published Silmarillion. In addition, TO refers to the brief notes given in note 59 to to the later Tuor in UT. I will go through FG paragraph by paragraph beginning from my suggested transition point, the paragraph beginning "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'" I follow jallanite's practice of using the following symbols: [ ] Normalized, usually used for proper names indicating they are here in final form, not as in original text. Eg. "[Huor]" probably represents an original "Peleg", "[nor]thward", represents original "southward", and "[']" represents original """. < > Material inserted from secondary source. If more than one secondary source occurs in the passage then a code appears after the opening angle-bracket, eg. "< QS77 ". { } Material to be deleted. Underlined Material inserted for grammatical reasons or as editorial bridge. To these I add: / / Material altered in accordance with our principle 6c; mostly used for expansion of outlines. In this case, I will show the deletion of the original as well; for example: {Coming thither of Elwing} = /Elwing came thither/. I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of discussion; after each one I give notes. P.1: {Then said Tuor: "What be those names?"}< TO Tuor asked the name of the city, [a]nd {the chief of the Guard}[Elemmakil] made answer: [']'Tis said and 'tis sung: "Gondobar am I called and Gondo[lodrim]bar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and [?] am I named, the Tower of Guard, [Nome] Thuri{o}n or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of [Morgoth]; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Loth[inan] the flower that blooms [in] the [valley]." Yet,' said he, 'in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin.' Then said Voronwë: 'Bring us thither, for we fain would enter,' and Tuor said that his heart desired much to tread the ways of that fair city. The 'chief of the Guard' seems to me to refer to him who was later named Elemmakil, though it might also be Ecthelion. See the following post for discussion of the names of Gondolin. P.2: < QS77 At the bidding of Ecthelion trumpets were blown on the towers of the great gate, and they echoed in the hills; and far off but clear there came a sound of answering trumpets blown upon the white walls of the city, flushed with the rose of dawn upon the plain. Then < TO [h]orses were brought {(a grey horse for Tuor)} = /, one white for Voronwë and one grey for Tuor;/> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for [']Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmost plain.['] Then Tuor and his companion fared over the plain that was of a marvellous level, broken but here and there by boulders round and smooth which lay amid a sward, or by pools in rocky beds. Many fair pathways lay across that plain, and they came after a day's light march to the foot of the Hill of Watch (which is in the tongue of the Nold[or] Amon Gwareth). Then did they begin to ascend the winding stairways which climbed up to the city gate; nor might any one reach that city save on foot and espied from the walls. As the westward gate was golden in the last sunlight did they come to the long stair's head, and many eyes gazed upon them from the battlements and towers. I may have taken too much liberty in adding that Voronwe's horse was white, but I can't think of any other reasonable way to introduce the fact that Tuor's horse was grey; all other horses used by the Eldar seem to be white. We might simply use: . . . horses were brought, a grey horse for Tuor . . .; I don't know if that's really awkward or not. P.3: But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistening pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble < TO up to its high platform and its great gate>, bordered by slender balustrades and cooled by the leap of threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth, and he fared as one in some dream of the [Valar], for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin. P. 4: Even so came they to the gates, Tuor in wonder and Voronwë in great joy that daring much he had brought Tuor hither in the will of Ulmo {and he had himself thrown off the yoke of Melko for ever. Though he hated him no wise less, no longer did he dread that Evil One with a binding terror (and of a sooth that spell which Melko held over the Noldoli was one of bottomless dread, so that he seemed ever nigh them even were they far from the Hells of Iron, and their hearts quaked and they fled not even when they could; and to this Melko trusted often).} In the later story Voronwe was not captured by Morgoth. This paragraph, reduced as it is, should probably be appended to P.3. P. 5: Now is there a sally from the gates of Gondolin and a throng comes about these twain in wonder, rejoicing that {yet another of the Noldoli has fled hither from Melko} Voronwë had returned, and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp. Rugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears. {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by Melko and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.} Passage on the relative stature of Elves and Men delted for obvious reasons. P. 6: {How it came ever that among Men the Noldoli have been confused with the Orcs who are Melko's goblins, I know not, unless it be that certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko. The greatest hatred was between them and the Noldoli, who named them Glamhoth, or folk of dreadful hate.} There is no suggestion in later writings of Elves being confused with Orcs. P. 7: Behold, the armed guardians of the gate pressed back the thronging folk that gathered about the wanderers, and one among them spake saying: [']This is a city of watch and ward, Gondolin on Amon Gwareth, where all may be free who are of true heart, but none may be free to enter unknown. Tell me then your names.' But Voronwë named himself {Bronweg of the Gnomes}, come hither by the will of Ulmo as guide to this son of Men; and Tuor said: 'I am Tuor son of [Huor] son of [Galdor] of the house of [Hador] of the sons of the Men of the North who liver far hence, and I fare hither by the will of Ulmo of the Outer Oceans.' I think that even if we decide to retain the 'house of the Swan' as referring to Annael, we should use 'the house of Hador' here, since he has just named his father and grandfather. P. 8: Then all who listened grew silent, and his deep and rolling voice held them in amaze, for their own voices were fair as the plash of fountains. Then a saying arose among them: 'Lead him before the king.' * * * * P. 9: Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of iron and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and coursts amid gardens of bright flowers and < TO mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees> were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the [K]ing's {palace} < TO house>, and the tower thereof < TO on a pillared arcade> was the loftiest in the city, < TO {and the banner of Fingolfin}= /and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin/> and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music. * * * * P. 10: On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one {that bore blossom} of gold and the other of silver, {nor did they ever fade, for} and they were {shoots from} likenesses of the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before [Morgoth] and [Ungoliant] withered them: and those trees the Gondothlim named Gling[a]l and B[elthi]l. P. 11: Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> < TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that} = /and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for/ he had known or even seen few woment in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.> {"Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was set in our books of wisdom, and it has been written that there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim whenso thou faredst hither."} There is no later indication of this prophecy. P.12: Then {spake Tuor}< Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo < TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared[.] < QS77And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish; and he bade him depart, and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down Sirion to the sea[,]> < TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon} = /and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished./>> {and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, 0 father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."} I added 'in the hearing of all' from TO; that outline says that this occurs either 'in the hearing of all' or 'in a council-chamber'. There's really nothing to push us in either direction, but the former is much easier to work into the narrative, so I went with it. P. 13-15: < QS77Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.> Here I would delete all 3 paragraphs from FG. The exact dialogue they use here is not so relevant to the later story; for example, the message bidding Tuor to prepare for battle appears to have been dropped. I think it's better to follow the more concise account of their converse above, at least until: P. 16: Then said Turgon: [']Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.['] I eliminate 'that is called' as Tuor has just spoken of the Sirion, and obviously knows what it is. After this paragraph, I think we can follow FG with more limited corrections. In a few places, I've used passages from QS77 here that I believe were created by CRT; I think this is better here (and allowed by our principles), as it achieves slightly better unity of style. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil </A> at: 7/25/01 10:18:04 am [ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] [ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

07-25-2001, 08:16 AM	#65
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 46</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> On the seven names of Gondolin First, I'll deal strictly with updating the old names: Gondobar, Loth, and, of course, Gondolin can stay. 'Gondothlimbar' is merely the class plural for the dwellers in Gondolin + _bar_; I believe the later class plural was _Gondolidrim_, so I used Gondolidrimbar, as awkward as it sounds. There might be better suggestions there. The question mark is for Gwarestrin, where we have a bit more of a problem: this is said in II to mean 'tower of guard'; a literal rendering of this in later Sindarin would be Minas Tirith, which I don't think we can use in light of the Minas Tirith that already exists in the 1st age. A look at the etymological notes in II reveals that 'Gwarestrin' means more literally 'guard pinnacle'; we could represent 'pinnacle' with Sindarin _amon_ or _ered_, 'hill' and 'mountain', respectively. 'Amon Gwareth', of course, already refers to the hill on which the city is built. But I think for 'guard' the best to use is _tir_ as in _tirith_ and _tirion_. Then we might have _Amon Tirith_ or something like that, or we could make an actual compound, _Tiramon_. The last name, 'Lothengriol' presents less of a problem. It is said here to mean 'flower that blooms on the plain', but since 1. I could find no later Sindarin (or Quenya) word for 'plain' and 2. the etymological notes give _engriol_ not as 'plain' but as 'valley', I changed it here to 'valley', using _nan_ for plain. This gives us Lothnan, which (I think) would become Lothinan. On top of these concerns, however, we have several later names for Gondolin that appear in the Etymologies. These are 'Gondost', 'Ardholen', and 'Garthoren'. These names are not mentioned in direct connection with the 7 names of the city; we therefore might assume that they are not among the 7 names. However, as the 7 names already include some that are clearly more colloquial nick-names, and as we never again find any other names for Gondolin, I think we should probably include these three. That means, of course, that three of the original names must be replaced. 'Gondost' is given as 'stone city'; at first glance, then, it would appear to best replace 'Gondobar', translated 'stone city' by the guard and more literally meaning 'stone dwelling'. However, this is a problem, as we find 'Gondobar' in the etymologies as well. Clearly the two names existed side by side. This leads us to a further problem: if we use both 'Gondost' and 'Gondobar', we'll have basically the same translations used by the guard: 'Gondobar, city of stone, and Gondost, city of stone'. The best solution I can say would be to use something like: 'Gondobar, stone-dwelling, and Gondost, city of stone.' What, then, should 'Gondost' replace? My inclination would be 'Gondothlimbar' - this is awkward when we update it to _Gondolidrimbar_, and I think the conjunction of 'Gondobar' and 'Gondost' makes the most sense if they appear next to each other. However, beyond these practical concerns, there is nothing particularly to indicate that 'Gondost' would have replaced 'Gondothlimbar'. The names 'Ardholen' and 'Garthoren' seem to be related. The etymolgies are very confusing on these. Under the stem GAT(H)-, we are given: "Another name is Garthurian = Fenced Realm = N Ardholen (which was also applied to Gondolin)." 'Another name', I think, refers to Doriath; there is a discussion of Doriath's names a few sentences earlier, and later, _Garthurian_ again appears as a name for Doriath. Here, however, it is equated with _Ardholen_. I'm not sure what we are to understand the relationship to be; perhaps _Garthurian_ is Dorathrin and _Ardholen_ is Noldorin? Under the stem 3AR- (3 representing the back-spirant), we have: "Dor. garth* realm, Garthurian (Fenced Realm = Doriath)" This at least seems to make it clear that _Garthurian_ is Doriathrin, and refers to Doriath. Later under the same stem (though the stem GARAT- was later inserted for this section), we are given: 'Q arta fort, fortress. N garth: cf. Garth(th)oren 'Fenced Fort' = Gondolin-distinguish Ardh-thoren = Garthurian." From all this, the only conclusion I can draw is that we are dealing with two separate, though similar, names. One is Doriathrin 'Garthurian', meaning Doriath, the Noldorin form of which, 'Ardholen', refers to Gondolin (a situation that would get confusing if a Noldo wanted to refer to Doriath). The second is 'Garthoren', a a Noldorin name referring only to Gondolin. The first name means 'Fenced Realm', the second means 'Fenced Fort'. Under the stem THUR- we are given _thuru_ = fence (Noldorin). So 'Garthoren' at least makes sense etymologically. For 'Ardholen' to work, though, we'd need some kind of word *olen meaning 'fence'. This is, I suppose, possible, since 'Ardholen' is JRRT's Noldorin translation of 'Garthurian', which means 'Fenced Realm'. 'Garthoren' looks quite a bit like 'Gar Thurion', one of the original names for Gondolin. Its meaning, however, is completely different: 'Fenced Fort' vs. 'Secret Place'. We could, though, replace 'Gar Thurion' with 'Garthoren' fairly reasonably. 'Ardholen', though, looks very little like any of the original names, in spelling or meaning. If we are to use it as one of the seven names, the best replacement I could come up with would be to use it for the problematic 'Gwarestrin', though there is no real basis for this. Sorry for the length and tedium of this discussion, but I think it's an important one. The 7 names of Gondolin should definitely be preserved (they are mentioned in TO); and, of course, we have to do our best to make them work etymologically. </p>

07-25-2001, 01:11 PM	#66
SteadfastSam Seeker of Light Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 503	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 406</TD><TD><img src=http://66.37.237.17/images/characters/vanityfair-astin_sm.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: On the seven names of Gondolin It's coming nicely! I agree with the above changes. "I will, Lord." said Tuor.</p>

07-25-2001, 09:18 PM	#67
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 51</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils. The transition section is mostly pinned down here. Not much point on going on about all the good parts. Here's where I differ or have suggestions. There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet. I suggest starting a little further back in FG with:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Then spake Tuor also and questioned {where they might be, and} who might be the folk in arms who stood about, for he was somewhat in amaze and wondered much at the goodly fashion of their weapons. Then 'twas said to him by one of that company: "We are the guardians of the Way of Escape. Rejoice that ye have found it, for behold before you the City of Seven Names where all who war with M[orgoth] may find hope."<hr></blockquote>I remove the phrase "where they might be" as it is already a strangely unperceptive question in the original, and really cannot stand in the new version where Tuor knows much more from Elemma[c]il and the passing of the other gates. But something is needed to lead into Tuor's question about "these names". And that question about the "folk in arms" follows perfectly from the end of Tuor* where we have just been told that<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented;<hr></blockquote>It is not surprising that Tuor asks about this array of folk greater than he has yet seen. Is the chief of the Guard to be Elemmacil or Ecthelion? From Tuor:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.<hr></blockquote>Also Elemmacil salutes Ecthelion rather than Echthelion saluting Elemmacil, and the tone of Elemmacil's words are slightly subservient. For Gondothlimbar* we find in "Etymologies" under GOND-<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Gondobar* (old Gondambar), Gonnobar = Stone of the World = Gondolin. Another name of Gondolin Gondost [OS], whence Gondothrim, Gondothrimbar. [Cf. Gondothlim, Gondothlimbar[/i] in the Lost Tales (II.342).]<hr></blockquote>CT's note is to the point. Use JRRT's own new form: Gondothrimbar. It is gond* 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'people' + bar 'dwelling'. For ost + r- = othr- refer to "Etymologies" stem OS- where appears:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> othrond* fortress, city in underground caves = ost-round (see ROD).<hr></blockquote> Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister. Tolkien probably intended Gar Thurian to be replaced by the Garth(th)oren of the "Etymologies", which we would write as Garthoren of course. But, as you point out, the meaning of the name has changed. Gar meaning 'place' seems to entirely disappear in true Sindarin and 'garth' is definitely 'fort, fortress'. Changing 'place' to 'fort' in the translation is not a problem. Changing the meaning of the second element, however, destroys the explanation for the name as given. But, perhaps:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Garthoren or the {Secret Place} < Etym: GARAT-* Fenced Fort>, for I am {hidden} <u>fenced away</u> from the eyes of M[orgoth].<hr></blockquote>So the name is kept (in its new form) and the meaning is changed per JRRT's notes. If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven. Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. But Loth-a-ladwen is not much better for using as later Sindarin. We have no later case of a meaning 'of' or 'the' or 'of the' and ladwen is never found outside of BoLT save this one time. I am inclined to keep it as is, however, as possibly "poetical" and not pure Sindarin. The translation in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" is "the Lily of the Plain", which fits with the note in "Etymologies" under LOT(H)-<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> losse* blossom (usually owing to association with olosse snow, only used of white blossom [see GOLÓS]).<hr></blockquote>I think Loth-a-ladwen is intended to mean the flower we call Lily-of-the-Valley, used metaphorically of Gondolin, whence the translation "Lily of the Plain" which would be the literal meaning of the Elvish name. Since this translation appears in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" it should be used as the most up-to-date, as well as agreeing with the original BoLT entry Lósengriol in the Appendix to BoLT 2 as 'flower of the vale or lily of the valley'. Possibly merge the information from the Lay which reads:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Loth, the Flower, they name me, saying 'Côr is born again, even in Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily of the Plain.'<hr></blockquote>The prose could be rendered:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay* Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.<hr></blockquote> Gwarestrin I am also inclined to keep. It contains the elements gwar, still valid in Amon Gwared and trin which is supposedly a contraction of Tirion. So the meaning "Tower of the Guard' certainly fits. Only esc does not (recognizably) appear in later Sindarin which does not necessarily mean it was dropped. I think the normal policy should be that BoLT Elvish forms that are not replaced by later counterparts and can't be supported as valid forms in the later legendarium or with great certainty converted to such should be dropped. But the need to keep the seven names for me takes priority for me. Rather than inventing forms or substituting totally different names, I'd rather change the translation of one of the names according to JRRT's own words, and keep the two of the seven that are dubious Sindarin. For Loth-a-ladwen, I suppose we could use Loth Land. But I don't like that. I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.) I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur. Q30 is very explicit about the journey across the plain:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Thither they were led and passed the gates of steel, and were brought before the step of the palace of the king.<hr></blockquote>The gates of steel are here the gates of Gondolin. The journey of Tuor and Voronwë alone is here rejected. Probably change as follows:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and said {the chief of the guard} [Ecthlelion] that they themselves must abide here, for there were yet many days of their moon of watch to pass, but that Voronwë and Tuor might pass on to Gondolin {; and moreover that they would need thereto no guide, for}<u>:</u> "Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmmost plain." Then Tuor and his companion {fared} < Q30* were led> over the plain that was of a marvellous ..."<hr></blockquote>I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone. P.4 Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go. P.5 The description of Tuor as rugged and clad in skins is well enough in the original FG. But what now of his Elvish armour? I suggest here be inserted the description of his armour found later in FG where it is introduced as a gift from Turgon to Tuor.<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... and marvelling at the stature and gaunt limbs of Tuor, his heavy spear barbed with fish bone and his great harp <u>and his </u> <armour> <made of [Noldo]-steel overlaid with silver; {but} <u>and</u> his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield<u>. But r</u>>ugged was his aspect, and his locks were unkempt, and he was clad in the skin of bears.<hr></blockquote>I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels* (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.<hr></blockquote>In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} <u>Y</u>et was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}<u>, though i</u>ndeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they <u>were</u> < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love.<hr></blockquote>One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen* by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping. P.6 Some of this might be used to augment material treating on the origin of Orks. You are right to drop it here. P.7 I have also come to feel that the "House of Hador" substitution you use is indeed the best. The swan element of the FG at this point is now present with Tuor's shield and helm instead. P.11 I think Turgon's speech may be retained with revisions:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Then Turgon [K]ing of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, < TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol,> and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, < TO {with a} = /and at his side/ a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath>, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. "Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom} <u>foretold by Ulmo</u>, {and it has been written} <u>saying</u> that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} < QS77* beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.['] < QS77 [A]nd upon the King's right hand there stood ....<hr></blockquote>The FG written prophecies are the counterparts to Ulmo's prophecy in later writings and I think something like this might be the minimal change in wording to translate the old account to fit the new. Turgon is of course trying to put the best light on the prophecy. I am tempted to suggest that Glamdring 'Foehammer' be inserted here as the name of Turgon's sword. But Sigh! we cannot know that the sword Turgon is wearing here or at any time in the tale is actually Glamdring. He might have worn Glamdring for years, for example, then bestowed it on another. He might have one sword for state occasions and one for battle. I also suggest re-using here in describing Idril the phrase from The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.<hr></blockquote>The reader will probably have forgotten this bit of information from the tale of the founding of Gondolin, and it would would provide a vivid touch here at the beginning of the real story of Idril. It also distinguishes Idril from the dark-haired Lúthien. P.23* Possibly a little more of Tuor's words from Ulmo can be fitted in. At least his introduction:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who makest deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men<u>.</u><hr></blockquote>Then follow with the standard Q30/ QS77* summary. JRRT does seem to have later dropped altogether the idea that Ulmo urged Turgon to take action other than abandoning Gondolin, and so most of the BoLT account of the message and Turgon's response does have to go. On the matter of style here, we will have to see when the Maeglin material and other matter of Turgon's stay in Gondolin is fitted in, at what point it is best that the modern style ceases and the archaic style begins. Until then I think the safest is to build the base text with exact words as you are doing. You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used. </p>

07-26-2001, 09:29 AM	#68
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils. <<There seems to be a sentence missing at the beginning, as the transition begins with "Then said Tuor: 'What be those names?'", though the matter of names has not been brought up yet.>> I think you've misread this; it would actually start: "Tuor asked the name of the city, and Elemmakil made answer:" However, perhaps you are right that we should start a bit earlier. My only reasoning for this starting point was that the first words of TO are: 'Tuor asked the name of the city'. I think your starting point is good, however. <<Elemma[c]il >> The c vs. k matter probably requires its own thread. Perhaps that's a topic where we could have more of a group discussion. <<And high and noble as was Elemma[c]il, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate.>> I don't think there's a question that Ecthelion outranks Elemmakil. I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. This is really a fairly trivial decision though, as the dialogue could easily have been spoken by either of them. <<Gondothrim may well remain an alternate name for the people of Gondolin beside Gondolindrim, and so used in the name Gondothrimbar, especially when * Gondolindrimbar is such as clumsy tongue-twister.>> Agreed. <<If one really wants to replace this with a form allowing the meaning 'secret', or include such a name beside Garthuren in place of one of the other names, there is always Gond Dolen 'Hidden Rock', which perhaps JRRT would have included as one of the official seven.>> Or it could be that just as 'Gondolin' = 'Stone-song' was later taken as 'Gond Dolen' = 'Hidden Rock', 'Garthoren' = 'Fenced Fort' may have later been taken as 'Gar Thorin' = 'Hidden place'. The only problem is the word _gar_ which may not have meant 'place' later. (In the actual text I gave I used _nome_ = place, but I definitely don't think this is the way to go.) <<Lothengriol is replaced by Loth-a-ladwen in "The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin" in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), so should be considered superceded and to be ignored. >> This had completely escaped my attention. Still, as you point out, Loth-a-ladwen is little better. I think we may still want to change it to a form we know is proper Sindarin, like Lothinan. <<but those who love me most greatly < Lay, saying [Tirion] is born again,> call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even {Lothengriol, the flower} < Lay Loth-a-ladwen, the Lily> that blooms on the plain.>> I like this, but I had thought that perhaps the saying 'Tirion is born again' might be better used at the actual building of Gondolin. <<I suppose one could construct a new form of Gwarestrin from aeg 'point' as Gwaraectrin or Gwarectrin. But that is theorizing and could be less valid than the original form. I think both are here best left alone as partly obscure forms, perhaps not entirely Sindarin. (Compare JRRT's late discussions on the forms ros and wing: he and we can tolerate odd forms in which the derivation of the supposed meaning is not altogether clear, especially in old names, as long as the forms are phonologically possible and the supposed meaning is not almost certainly wrong.)>> True. But I'd still probably tap this name as the first to go if we replace any with 'Ardholen' or 'Gondost'. <<I don't find the mention of a grey horse alone particularly awkward, probably because we are seeing things from Tuor's point of view, and an arbitrary extra description about something that effects him particularly comes across well enough as a sudden vivid touch. Also, white horses, sometimes mentioned elsewhere, might be so mentioned because such horses are special and not normal. For example, I've encountered readers of LR who have similarly got the idea that most Elves are fair-haired because Tolkien only thinks to mention the hair-color of an Elf in LR when the rare golden or silver hair-colors occur.>> Agreed. Sometimes it's hard to tell which parts of an outline need expansion and which don't. <<I could not bear to leave out the description of Gondolin though its purpose is now gone.>> Nonetheless, I think we may have to let this go. While it is an excellent point of description, it seems to me a bit awkward. I wonder if we could (legitimately) work it in somewhere else? <<Some of that wonderful description of the Spell of Dread simply must be retained for use elsewhere. Unforunately here it must go.>> Perhaps it could be inserted for Gwindor in the Tale of Turin? <<But what now of his Elvish armour? >> I had quite forgotten that (as important a point as it is). I think your corrections are good. <<though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth]>> I wonder if this should be kept, even if we keep the remarks on their stature. In the Lost Tales, nearly all the Noldoli became slaves of Melko; those in Gondolin were the only free Gnomes; thus, this statement has force and relevance. Here, however, I think it comes off as a little out of place. It is true that some Noldor were made thralls, but it is hardly a general characteristic of all the Noldor that they are bent of back from long labour. <<You are using Amon Gwrareth rather than Amon Gwared. I want to do further checking on that myself, to see if I can fathom better that late emendation, and whether it indeed does appear to be the latest form of the name used. >> I had forgotten the late change to Amon Gwared. But I agree it needs checking. What then of the names Ardholen and Gondost? Do you think these should replace 2 of the 7 names? If so, which ones? </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000320>Aiwendil </A> at: 7/29/01 8:02:47 am*

07-26-2001, 04:07 PM	#69
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 120</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Comments, suggestions, and cavils. ------------- Quote: I don't think we need to delete all the material on differences of Elves and Men. Refer to The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), "Quendi and Eldar", under Sindar: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In general the Sindar apear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In this late writing Noldor are still "lithe", that is slender. Lets try this: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,} Yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. I}, though indeed the [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for M[orgoth], but {small were} they were < QE strong and tall, but> slender and {very} lithe. They were swift of foot and surpassing fair; sweet and sad were their mouths, and their eyes had ever a joy within quivering to tears; for in those times the [Noldor] were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not. But fate and unconquerable eagerness after knowledge had driven them into far places, and now were they hemmed by M[orgoth] and must make their abiding as fair as they might by labour and by love. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One has the very tall, burly Man compared to the Elves who come out before the city to meet him, some of whom are also tall, but not as tall as Tuor, who are also strong, but more slender in build. (Turgon is taller than Tuor presumably, but he is waiting at the palace.) The end of the passage reminds the reader of the situation of the Noldor in Gondolin, as here seen by Tuor, and so I think worth keeping. ----------------------------------- The 'but lithe' seems to be refering to the Sindar in comparison to the Noldor. That is the Sindar are more lithe than the Noldor. JRRT greatly changed his mind on the differing statures of Elves and Men. In Lost Tales Tuor was taller than the Elves, but when reading the updated versions this is no longer present. I will post on a seperate thread a comparison of the statures of Elves and Men as JRRT changed them in his writings. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

07-26-2001, 05:32 PM	#70
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 54</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Elvish size I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me. Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;<hr></blockquote>perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build. Also in Tuor* JRRT writes:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> He was come now almost to his full stature, taller and swifter than any of the Easterlings;<hr></blockquote>So Tuor is a tall man; indeed, even before reaching full growth he is taller than any Easterling. My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar". Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people? P.5* I see now that "his heavy spear barbed with fish bone" must be deleted. From Tuor, describing Turor and Voronwë's setting out:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Tuor took with him the small bow and arrows that he had brought, beside the gear that he had taken from the hall; but <u>his spear, upon which his name was written in the eleven[ sic]-runes of the North, he set upon the wall</u> in token that he had passed.<hr></blockquote>So he has no spear when he comes to Gondolin. I think "clad in the skins of bears" must also go. It might still be true; but it would be most unusual for Tuor to wear his garments over his mail-coat instead of under it, and so the Noldor would see little of them. Tuor's cloak, Ulmo's gift, which he does naturally wear over his armour, is almost certainly not bear-skin. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 7/26/01 7:37:56 pm*

07-26-2001, 05:59 PM	#71
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 123</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Elvish size -------------------- Quote: I had interpreted the words to mean that the Sindar were very like the Noldor, both peoples being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. You took it that the Sindar were very like the Noldor being dark-haired, strong, and tall, but more lithe than the Noldor, an interpretation that had not occurred to me. Now that I see it, I can't descide which is meant from that sentence. But the following phrase: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- perhaps pulls more strongly for my original interpretation: Noldor and Sindar are identical on the average in strength, height, and build. ------------------------------- I answered this more fully in the 'Statures' thread. For the sake of completeness I will refer here to 'Numenorean Linear Measures' where it is noted that the Teleri are less in build and stature than the Noldor; and to the appendix to 'Quendi and Eldar', where it is noted that the Quendi from whom the Noldor came were 'tall and strong' while the other Quendi are not described in this way (taking this to be a comparison to the other Quendi of course). Perhaps if this needs to be continued it should be done in the other thread? ---------------------------- Quote: My intent in the editing of the Tuor passage was to retain there the information that Tuor was a tall man. (A standard scene in traditional romance and epic is the hero appearing in a crowd, taller and more handsome than any of the others, and Tolkien here appears to be following the convention.) But I wished to remove the now invalid information that Elves were on the average shorter than Men, hence my replacement of "small" by "strong and tall" from "Quendi and Eldar". Assuming that the Noldor and Sindar and the people of the House of Hador averaged about the same height in their prime, then it comes down to how much above the average height of these peoples was Tuor. If slightly above average, then it would be unlikely that he would be taller than anyone in the crowd. If very tall among those people, then the account can stand. Or is the logic instead that because of this account, which we have no reason otherwise not to accept, we know Tuor was very tall among those people? ----------------------------- I have some vague recollection of JRRT addressing Tuor's height in Gondolin in one of his later essays, I think he was also speaking of Turin or Hurin as well. I dont recall where this was offhand (and may be mis-remembering), but I will attempt to hunt it down. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

07-28-2001, 10:30 AM	#72
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 50</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re:Comments, suggestions, and cavils. I said in my last post: <<I do think there may be a difference between 'chief of the guard' and 'warden of the gate'. >> Confirming my supposition, from Tuor: "And Elemmakil, captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, looked long and closely at them." </p>

07-29-2001, 08:36 PM	#73
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 55</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: More comments Tar-Elenion, I also have some such vague recollection as you describe about Turor's height in Gondolin or maybe something about Túrin. Wherever the passage exists, if it does, it is not in the obvious places in the commentary on either of the full tales of Tuor. Aiwendil: <u> On the names of Gondolin.</u> If will try to summarize the current state of discussion and add what I can. Acceptable: Gondolin, Gondobar, and [/i]Loth[/i] are fine as they stand, being excellent Sindarin and having the same meanings as their Gnomish originals. Later Gondothrimbar can replace early Gondothlimbar. It is a form found in the "Etymologies" and is good Sindarin. True, Gondothlim is replaced by a very different form Gondolindrim. However Gondothrim also appears in "Etymologies" and it doesn't matter whether it should be considered an alternate form existing alongside Gondolindrim or a form (almost?) only used as part of Gondothrimbar. Small difficulty: Gar Thurian 'Place-Secret' does not work properly in later Sindarin, however the "Etymologies" gives a name of Gondolin Garth(th)oren 'Fort-Frenced', which is almost certainly Tolkien's replacement form. Since both form and meaning can stand, I believe it should be used. I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties. Tolkien gives us both the new form and the new meaning, and we might as well use them. Major problems: Gwarestrin is almost valid (which is something like being almost pregnant). Gwar appears nowhere else but in Amon Gwareth/Gwared, but that is enough. It stands. Estrin is explained clearly under Gwarestrin in BoLT 2, Appendix:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> A late entry in GL gives estirin, estirion, estrin* 'pinnacle', beside esc 'sharp point, sharp edge'. The second element of this word is tiri(o)n see I.238 ( Kortirion).<hr></blockquote>The entry Kortirion in Bolt 1, Appendix, gives:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> The word tirion* 'a mighty tower, a city on a hill' is given in QL under root TIRI 'stick up', with tinda 'spike', tirin 'tall tower', tirios 'a town with walls and towers'. There is also another root TIRI, differing in the nature of the medial consonant, with meaning 'watch, guard, keep; look at, observice', whence tiris 'watch, vigil', etc. In GL are tir- 'look out for, await', tirin (poetic form tirion) 'watch-tower, turret', Tirimbrithla 'the Tower of Pearl' (see Silmarilli).<hr></blockquote>In both "Etymologies" and in Road Goes Ever On the Quenya form Tirion is cited as deriving from the stem TIR- and meaning "great watch-tower". This is actually better for meaning. The Noldorin (= Sindarin) counterpart given in "Etymologies" is tirith, but that is obviously not the exact cognate. So -tirion, -tirin, -trin can stand either as a true exact cognate (used poetically?), or a borrowing from Quenya. Its use here is well explained in QS77 "Of the Noldor in Beleriand":<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> ... so that Gondolin upon Amon Gwareth became fair indeed and fit to compare even with Elven Tirion beyond the Sea.<hr></blockquote>Instead of Kortirion* we now have Gwar-tirion or Gwar-trin. But what of the element esc- 'sharp point, edge'. I find it nowhere later. It does seem to have been replaced by EK-, EKTE- 'spear', found in Tolkien final etymologies of Ecthelion and Egamloth in The War of the Jewels for example. So what would the form be? In "Etymologies" from EKTE- Tolkien gives the nouns Q ehte 'spear' and N aith spear-point. So either ek or original ekt- + tirion worn down to trin ought to give eithrin. (The correspondence of ai] in monosyllables or final syllables to ei elsewhere is normal Sindarin. Compare Q tehta with S andaith 'long mark' from ann + * taith to the same element in teithant 'he drew' on the Moria Gate inscription.) So a postulated Sindarin form for early Gnomish Gwarestrin is Gwareithrin. Another prossibility is to make it a recent compilation from aeg which Tolkien refers to in Ecthelion and Egamloth and so the form become Gwaraegdrin with lenition of t to d. I believe both are valid forms. So, three choices are to keep the Gwarestrin as possibly valid, replace it by Gwareithrin, or replace it by Gwaraegdrin. I set these forms here for further discussion. A fourth possibility is to replace Gwarestrin by another name altogother, one we know is valid. Loth-a-ladwen is early Gnomish. The form ladwen ends like uthwen 'escape' and faidwen 'release, freedom'; so -wen may be a normal genundative or abstract ending of some sort. But do such ending -wen appears in later Sindarin to our knowledge. One might take ladwen as an early compound from the stems LAT- 'lie open' (which is found in Tumladen and almost certainly in imlad 'valley' and Lithlad 'Ashen Plain') + GWEN 'greenness, freshness' and understand a basic meaning something like 'meadow'. If an early compound the gw would have changed to simple w ( latgwen to ladwen) and not be affected by the later change of gw to b found normally with earlier initial gw in Sindarin. I don't at all believe this etymology, but it is one I think acceptable and would probably be one theorized if ladwen did appear in a later text. Another possibility is to use the adjectival form laden (use normal correction from the Noldorin lhaden in the "Etymologies&quot as a noun. For the preposition a which disappears after BoLT we could substitute Sindarin na which seems to have the same meaning. So possible forms are Loth-na-ladwen, Loth-na-laden, Loth-a-laden or the original Loth-a-ladwen. We can also replace one or both of these forms by ones totally different. We have three correct names referencing Gondolin not appearing among the seven: Gond-dolen 'Hidden Rock', Ardholen 'Realm-Hidden', and Gondoth 'Stone-fort' The last of these may not have been intended as a true use-name, but rather an intermediate name to explain the etymology of Gondothrim and Gondothrimbar. In BoLT Gondothlim is gond 'stone' + hoth 'folk' + lim 'many' whereas the later form is gond 'stone' + ost 'fortress' + rim 'host'. Ardholen is almost certainly ardh 'realm, kingdom' + dolen 'hidden'. See the index to QS77:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Hidden Kingdom* Name given to both Doriath ..., and to Gondolin, ...<hr></blockquote>In Tuor** "Hidden Kingdom" is always capitalized but "hidden city" is not. Tolkien introduces the form Ardholen in a discussion of by-names used for Doriath 'Land of the Fence', and then mentions parenthetically "(which was also applied to Gondolin)". It is likely that it would have been more accurate to write "(which was also applied to Turgon's secret realm)", since its meaning is unsuitable to refer to the city of Gondolin alone. The Hidden Kingdom contained other guardian fortresses (of which we see seven in the Way of Escape), mines hidden in the mountains, almost certainly farms and orchards, and so forth. Tolkein avoids calling Gondolin a kingdom, I believe, but does refer to the Hidden Kingdom and Turgon as the Hidden King, and his people as the Hidden People. But Gondost and Gond-dolen are available as names of the city. I'm not recommending anything here for these two last city names. Just laying forth the data and pushing it around and seeing what can be done. Of the these major problems nothing seems right to me yet, or I guess I would not classify them as major problems. Elemmacil/Ecthelion On "chief of the guard", "captain of the guard", "Warden of the Great Gate" there is no certainty it seems. I would assume "chief" and "captain" are equivalent terms, and "captain" takes priority with us. Elemmacil reports to no-one at any of the other gates save the last, so is perhaps chief of the guards for all seven gates. Yet though Ecthelion is "Warden of the Great Gate" not Warden of the Gates, he appears to be Elemmacil's superior. Of course there is only one gate in FG. In Tuor the "chief of the guard" has been broken into two persons, and one of them identified with Echthelion. Probably each of the other six gates had its own warden, all reporting to the "Warden of the Great Gate". The charge of the wardens would be normal maintainance and providing support for the guards. And the guards would report to Elemmacil who also reports to the "Warden of the Great Gate". There's no definite answer though as to who says what in FG other than whether words seem to better fit Elemmacil or Ecthelion. </p>

07-30-2001, 09:47 PM	#74
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 126</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: More comments ------------------ Quote: I would keep the meaning 'fenced', rather than imagine it being interpreted as an Ilkorin (= Northern Sindarin) form as this involves less supposition and no difficulties. --------------- I would note that Ilkorin = North Sindarin is supposition. I think Mr Fauskanger suggests this as a possibility at Ardalambion. I think it is more likely that Ilkorin sould be equated with the speech of the Laiquendi and Nandor (though this is supposition on my part). VT 42 just came out and it gives some notes on the Sindarin varieties which may indicate that Ilkorin should not be equated with North Sindarin. Re Elemmakil: I think 'captain of the Gaurd' is refering to his position as commander of the Dark (or Outer) Gaurd. That is those charged with gaurding the tunnel and Gate of Wood. Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion

08-07-2001, 02:58 PM	#75
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 51</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Miscellaneous comments Well, it's certainly been quiet here lately. Elemmakil/Ecthelion The question is: who replaced the captain of the Guard from the Lost Tales, Elemmakil or Ecthelion? I would submit that it was Elemmakil, though the question obviously does not have so simple an answer. There are points in favor of each: 1. Ecthelion is clearly the highest ranking Noldo in the scene; the captain of the Guard in LT is likewise the highest ranking Noldo on the scene. However: 2. a. Elemmakil is referred to as 'captain of the guard' and b. Ecthelion already existed when the LT was written; he is therefore clearly NOT the same person as the captain of the guard from LT. 'Elemmakil' could easily be the name of that person, though. I think overall, 2 is the stronger argument. This is probably a matter for a vote, though. Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil We should probably lay down some kind of guideline for all c vs. k issues. We clearly (I think) intend on keeping Melkor and Tulkas, whereas I think we equally clearly intend on replacing Menelmakar with Menelmacar, for instance. Elemmacil/Elemmakil falls somewhere in between; Elemmacil is, as far as I know, unattested, but it does seem likely that it would have changed. Further names to consider Just a few stray thoughts on some names not covered by jallanite's (very thorough) list: Othrod, Balcmeg, Lug, and Orcobal: These are the names of Orcs slain in the battle. It seems inadvisable to tamper with them, but I think they do need a little a thought. First of all, what language are they? 'Othrod' and 'Lug' do not appear in the name-list for the Fall of Gondolin. 'Lug' certainly sounds Orcish rather than Elven, and Othrod has no likely Elvish etymology save perhaps oth + rod = 'round cave'! However, Balcmeg and Orcobal are given in the List, and seem to be Gnomish. It seems unlikely that four Orc names given in such proximity would be given so inconsistently that some are in Orcish and some in Gnomish (Sindarin). So, we have two choices here: try to update 'Balcmeg' and 'Orcobal' into later Sindarin, and assume that 'Lug' and 'Othrod' are given inconsistently in Orcish; or leave all four names exactly as they are, and assume either that they are all Orcish, or that there are fairly bizarre Sindarin etymologies for them that we can't even guess at. I'd probably favor the latter, but it needs thought. Dramborleg: The name of Tuor's axe, said to mean "Thudder-sharp". There seems to be no later Sindarin etymology for it, though. Should we keep the name, assuming an unknown etymology, or delete it? (This problem is similar to that of 'Rog'). One final, very miscellaneous, idea: just after Tuor reaches the Square of the Folkwell, in the paragraph beginning, "There were the scatterlings . . .", there is mention of oak and poplar trees. As far as I can tell, this is the only mention of these trees in the tale. The Tuor outline in UT mentions mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreens, but CRT notes that mallorns were never elsewhere connected with Gondolin. Hence, I am extremely tempted to replace 'oaks and poplars' with 'mallorns and birches', though this is of course extremely dubious. </p>

08-12-2001, 01:27 PM	#76
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 59</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Miscellaneous comments Elemmakil/Ecthelion The more I look the less I care. Actually, since the name of the chief of the guard in FG isn't given we don't know that he wasn't Ecthelion. Go by who is most likely to speak the words in the tales as revised. Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil Tolkien was still using k in some early Appendix material, most of which was written after Tuor. The decision to use c throughout for the k sound in Elvish, except before the w sound, was a very late decision by Tolkien, so we should not expect to find it implemented in Tuor or in other works CT dates around 1951. But macil 'sword' seems to have been a common element in names. In published LR Narmacil and Calmacil are names in the line of the Kings of Gondor. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) Tolkien gives Mormacil 'Blacksword', the Quenya version of Túrin's byname. All three forms have c rather than k. Ork names Yes, who can say what they are? I think you are right, leave them alone unless an obvious correction appears. All names need not be meaningful as Tolkien stresses in his later writings. And he was always ready to change the etymology to fit the form. There are at least three different etymologies for Ecthelion. As the Black Speech did not exist at the time of the Fall of Gondolin, the Orks may be using Sindarin names, perhaps dialectical, or they may be names in some Orkish tongue, but partly adapted in the tale to Sindarin style. Dramborleg The index to BoLT 2 says Dramborleg means 'Thudder-sharp'. from root TARA, TARAMA 'batter, thud, beat' with the second element being leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'. For the identical Sindinarin form the etymology is slightly different but meaning is close enough as to make it certain JRRT was purposely justifying the name. See drambor 'clenched fist, hence blow with fist (see KWAR)' under DARÁM- in "Etymologies". The word dramb, dram(m) means 'a heavy stroke, a blow (e.g. of axe)'. For the second element, see the stem LAIK- 'keen, sharp, acute'. The Noldorin form given is lhaeg which we would normalize in Sindarin as laeg. I would expect this to reduce to leg in the last syllable in a compound, and indeed it does in an example under the stem LAS²- where the Q name Lastalaika 'sharp-ears' has the Noldorin cognate Lhathleg. Dramborleg stands with no problems. Poplars and Oaks I think it unlikely that two kinds of deciduous trees, mallorn and birch, and no other would be found in Gondolin. Certain particular mounds (or whatever the word is) had on them or about them mallorn, birch, and evergreen trees. That says nothing about trees in the rest of the city. Leave the reference. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 8/12/01 3:42:31 pm