How Do You Envision Middle-Earth?

[Bill Ferny]

propagandalf, nice fan-art. The Grey Havens reminds me of Arda creation illustrations, though, but I think you portray with the swirling mists the passage from Middle-Earth to the separated realm of the Undying Lands very well. Keep up the creativity! I’m hoping to see more fan-art on this thread [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

As far as the movie Gollum goes, I was most impressed with the voice acting. Every sense I first read the books I’ve always tried to emulate Gollum’s voice the way I imagined it, but I was never satisfied with my feeble attempts. I really liked Gollum’s voice in the animated movie The Hobbit, but I think PJ and the actor (don’t know his name), did an absolutely wonderful job!

Though PJ’s ents brings to mind a Pandora’s Box of opinions that do not belong on this thread, I will give him this much… visually his ents are the best ent illustrations I have ever seen from any Tolkien artist.

thunder-goddess, sting is the only weapon in the movie with which I was satisfied. The look of sting captured something of its ancient origins, mainly due to its blade design being so different from other weapons seen on other characters. It resembled, from a more historical bent, a Roman gladius circa. Julius Ceasar. For example, compare the movie sting to these Roman blades (complements the skilled hands at Albion weapons works):





It also is remensent of Celtic leaf shaped blade designs. Thursting an ancient sword design into the movie alongside more traditional medieval looking weapons is a good example of WETA’s genius.

[propagandalf]

Thanks Bill Ferny. I have to look up ‘Arda creation illustrations’ as I have no idea what that is [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. *stupid newbie*

I think the name of the guy who played ‘Gollum’ is Andy Zierkis (sp). I agree with you about the voice, that was the first thing that struck me about Gollum. I thought it was digitally altered, initially. But then, I saw this documentary about LOTR- it was really him. Amazing! That dude can really talk like that! Btw, I also catch myself trying to imitate that voice from time to time. What is it about Gollum? heheee.

Regarding the swords- They could’ve made Theoden’s sword a little grander in my opinion. Sting was awesome. And umm.. I am patiently awaiting the appearance of Anduril [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img].

[Bill Ferny]

Here you go, propagandalf.

[Bill Ferny]

After re-thinking the chapter in UT, Battle at the Fords of Isen, I was struck by Tolkien’s description of the battle as being rather modern, like he was describing a typical WWI battle with swords, spears and horses, instead of rifles, artillery and machine guns.

Granted, Tolkien was no scholar of medieval warfare, but I find it hard to believe that, if the Fords of Isen was such an important land mark, it wouldn’t be defended by some sort of fortification. There seems to be a lack of typical medieval style fortifications in general. Bree is surrounded by a wall and the shire is bordered by a hedge, the cities of Gondor are walled, but considering the necessities of medieval like weapons and tactics, one would assume that there would be many more fortifications throughout Middle Earth than what is described in the books.

Just a thought.

Regardless, this illustration of a historical motte-and-bailey castle would fit well into the landscape of Rohan.

Great Idea for a post. The visions in ones head for a fantasy world are sometimes hard to comunicate with others. "invision wooded thickets with streams running their length, Shadow cast skies, beauty unmatched. well worn roads with hundreds of years of travel on them. Then suddenly the clouds break revelinga rather large sun glowing brightly down..." Kind of what i think is stated hear. Rate Me, if you got the time

[nPiLL]

There are many ways that i envision Middle Earth. Before i had seen the movies i envisioned it to be a awesome place with elves, humans, hobbits, orcs roaming around. Also, the architecture would have a medieval influence to it. After i saw the movie i guess i was pretty accurate lol.

[The Saucepan Man]

There seems to be a lack of typical medieval style fortifications in general.

Not sure that I altogether agree with you on this one, Bill. There seem to me to be fortifications where they are needed. So, Minas Tirith is fortified (and thus able to resist for some time attack by Sauron's forces). And I would imagine the other great cities of Gondor, such as Dol Amroth and (in it heyday) Osgiliath, to be similarly fortified.

The people of Rohan are slightly different. Being horse-lords, they are more nomadic in their origins and therefore would have less historic knowledge of fortification-building. And so they rely on Helm's Deep, originally built by Gondor and only strengthened by the people of Rohan. And there they go in times of trouble. They also have the option of withdrawing to Dunharrow, but that is more of a naturally occuring defensive position.

Hobbits and Bree-landers did not need great fortifications because they were rarely disturbed, and certainly not by great armies. Dwarves relied on the defensive adavantage bestowed by having their communities under mountains. Khazad-Dum and Erebor were fortified communities in a way, although (perhaps understandably) not built to withstand attack from the likes of Smaug and the Balrog. And as for Elves, well they seem to have relied largely on Elvish magic to protect their communities (Rivendell, Lothlorien).

So, having thought this through, it does seem that most of the "medeival-style" fortifications in 3rd Age ME were built by the Gondorians. Possibly because they were the only ones with the knowledge and the need to do so.

[Bill Ferny]

I see what you are saying about the elves and dwarves, and its perfectly understandable. Though in the case of Rohan, I somewhat disagree. The mounted soldier was the staple of medieval warfare, and as it panned out, the medieval fortification became a necessary expedient of the mounted soldier. The people of Rohan, I’ve been told, were modeled on the Vikings, and as it turns out the Vikings were both accomplished horsemen and builders as well as mariners.

However, after some more thought, I think my original speculation missed the mark anyway. I’ve spent most of my time researching and studying the post-Norman medieval world, not so much the pre-Norman. So I take things like castle building for granted. Though the establishment of fortifications on the continent was wide spread from the Carlovingian period onward mainly due to Viking raiding, it was for the most part absent in Anglo-Saxon England. Before 1066 there were about six timber and earthwork fortifications, one in Dover, one at Arundel in Sussex, three in Hereford, and one in Essex. Even then, only the fortification at Dover was not engineered by Normans.

Of course, the Romans habitually built castri, temporary fortifications of ditches and earth ramparts, and sometimes converted them into more permanent establishments with the addition of stonework. King Harold Godwinson utilized one such ancient Roman site when he built the fortification at Dover. However, such fortifications had little defensive capability without a large professional garrison, and as such were very different from the latter medieval fortifications with which we are familiar, and the type of fortification from the continent with which the Normans were familiar. By 1066, the majority of the Roman castri were either ruins or had long been tilled over. This, of course, had disastrous results for the Anglo-Saxons because their fate hinged on a single engagement with the Normans at Hastings. They lost, had no fortifications to fall back upon, and William was simply able to march through England in a relatively brief amount of time subjecting the better part of the island to Norman rule. William brought with him from the continent the wisdom of the defensive fortification, and thus solidified his rule by placing his followers behind the safety of these forts from which they could exercise control over the surrounding countryside. The number of fortifications in England climbed from six in 1066 to over five hundred by the turn of the century.

I’m sure that Tolkien was well aware of Norman castle building in England, from the remnants of the old motte-and-bailey castles to the massive Edwardian fortresses of the late thirteenth century and everything in between. In only 16 days by bicycle I was able to visit 9 castle sites in Wales (and this included many wasted hours in pubs and bed and breakfasts to boot). Given Tolkien’s attitude about the Normans and the events of 1066 and following, I’m sure he had a different perspective of these Norman castles than I have. He probably saw in them the subjugation of the Anglo-Saxon people. No doubt if he was indeed attempting to resurrect the ancient mythology of his island, the distinctive Norman love affair with castle building would be absent.

[Bill Ferny]

Definitely not how I envisioned a man of Gondor:



What is that guy, a soldier or a jester? I do know this, he’s probably the slowest rider in the whole army… the wind resistance really sets him back. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

i have to say, i think that the film fitted my mental images far better than practically all of the pictures from this thread. that, at least, is one thing i reckon PJ got right. (but I am NOT going to start on about faramir, cos it's totally unrelated...)
rohan surprised me, it seemed far more rural and backward in a good way than i'd imagined, but after i saw it that version seemed more reasonable tham mine really!
on the other hand, the prancing pony was NOTHING like how it should be. NOTHING at all! it was supposed to be nice- but there you go. they didnt want to stop and start the tension. fine. cater for people with
2-second attention spans, i'll just watch pippin ("It comes in pints?")

[Rumil]

Oooh, interesting thread...

First, to indulge in some ritual apple chucking [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] , nice thoughts on castles, swords etc from Bill. However, I do have the odd point....

Isn't the medieval sword in your illustration a panzertetcher, as used by German knights in the Baltic Crusades? I believe it was prized for its armour penetration qualities. (I still think the elven panzertetcher/katana things 'feel' wrong, after all Glamdring, Narsil and Sting are supposed to be elven blades, and I don't like their banded armour either, though I guess if PJ put everyone in chainmail it might be confusing.)

On fortifications, I think you may be underestimating the number of 'Anglo-Saxon' strongholds. I seem to remember that one of the English kings (beginning, I think, with E or A [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), perhaps Athelstan?? had a program of building 'forts' around England. Certainly there was one at Warwick, where the foundations were later used to build the Medieval castle (That JRRT thought of as Kor-Tirion).

On the battle of the fords of Isen, there were fortifications guarding the fords, but they had been allowed to decay over the years. I'd guess they now resembled simple earthworks. Presumably Rohan had decided that with Saruman at Isengard, the forts weren't worth the upkeep, then when Saruman turned nasty Wormtongue persuaded Theoden not to bother renovating them. I'm interested to hear why you think this battle resembles WWI Bill? For me, the closest parallel is with colonial battles such as Ulundi, where at the end of the conflict the Rohirrim form square, then break out. I've also noticed that this battle was an uncharacteristic defeat for the cavalry of Rohan which performed very poorly, perhaps due to being charged before they had deployed from column of march.

Anyway, as for images from the films, the Shire was generally good but looked as though it needed a few hundred years to 'bed in' to look authentically ancient. As many have said, Rivendell and Lothlorien were too 'dark' or perhaps 'grey', perfect for after LoTR, but I'd have thought them far lighter, livelier places at this time. Edoras was so downmarket, I think someone took Saruman's insult as the truth!

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, I’m not sure about the panzertetcher, though I think I know what your talking about. I’ll have to do some quick research. The two blades at the top of this page were definitely modeled on the Roman gladius found at the Mainz dig.

I still think the elven panzertetcher/katana things 'feel' wrong, after all Glamdring, Narsil and Sting are supposed to be elven blades…

Excellent point! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think you mean King Alfred the Great (871-899) who was a military genus and used temporary earthwork fortifications to great effect. However, various other Anglo-Saxon kings utilized temporary earthwork fortifications that resembled similar constructs in Scandinavia. These defensive positions required, like the Roman castri, a large cadre of trained soldiers to defend, and such fortifications could not hold long against protracted sieges. None of these earthwork fortifications were intended as long lasting political and military centers, but were set in place and moved according to need. By 1066 most of the fortifications built and used from the sixth to tenth centuries were useless and forgotten. The Anglo-Saxons still depended on open engagement.

The Battle of Ulundi is a bit outside of my area of historical expertise, but you could very well be right. What was lacking from the battle as described in the UT was the feeling of the medieval, when both sides face off across a field, the mounted soldiers charge, the infantry charges. Medieval battles were usually decided in the course of a few hours, not days. The tactics used by both sides at the Fords of Isen resembled a more modern engagement, like the Battle of Ulundi of the late 19th century or those of WWI in the early 20th. Mention of WWI was simply a throw-away reference in light of Tolkien being a veteran of WWI.

Edoras was so downmarket…

I have to disagree with you on that one. I thought Edoras was one of the more authentic looking locales in the movie.

Here’s my newest “movie-pet-peeve”:



Aragorn or Oliver Cromwell?

[Lathriel]

I liked the way PJ made middle earth except for two things. I had imagined the orcs differently. I imagined them more as very hairy creatures. I didn't imagine their faces that pointy,I imagined them more blunted so that they quickly got a dumb expression,dull eyes with a big forehead.
And I imagined Lothlorien as a brighter place, and maybe a little happier too. It is very gloomy in the FOTR movie.

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually, Bill, I quite like that picture of Aragorn. The detail on the horse's armour is incredible- for example, the tree on its "breastplate" (or whatever that piece of horse armour is called).

But you are quite right about the rather ostentatious Gondorian helmet - neither practical nor particularly aesthetically pleasing. I have a horrible feeling that it might be Prince Imrahil - isn't he supposed to have some connection with swans or something? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, I’m confused in regards to the panzertetcher. At first I thought you were referring to sting-like blades, but after researching, though I couldn’t find mention of panzertetcher in the sources I have laying around the house, I think you might be referring to the sword illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible. I was able to find a number of German falchions that at best vaguely resemble the one illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible and the elven blades in the LotR movies (I couldn’t find any two-handed examples). If you could provide a physical description or picture of the panzertetcher, it would be greatly appreciated.

Lathriel, I know what you mean about the goblins/orcs. I guess I’ve been conditioned by the brothers Hildebrant over the years, though. However, I still liked WETA’s meanies. So far PJ’s conception of goblins/orcs is the most horrific I’ve seen, and as far as I’m concerned that’s a good thing.

Oh, come on, PanMan, you have to admit, like the costuming or not, that he does look a little like a live action Oliver Cromwell statue.

[Bill Ferny]

I posted this picture in the "Weapon of Choice" thread. Dress it up a bit and it would work great for a Gil-Galad’s spear, Aeglos:



This a rather short spear (about 4 1/2 to 5 feet in length) used by the Romans for thrusting in tight formations. It’s the only historical spear I can find that was designed to be re-usable; all other spear types were disposable, and often only one-use, weapons.

[Bill Ferny]

This picture of Bilbo Baggins, as drawn by Alkanoonion’s sister, was posted by Alkanoonion on another thread. I thought it was great. Is there any other anime adaptations of Middle Earth out there?

[Rumil]

Sorry for being not entirely crystal, Bill. It was the Maciejowski Bible picture sword I was referring to as a panzertetcher. Afraid I can't quite remember where I remember this from, if you take my meaning. I do think I read about this sword in reference to the picture you showed. I'll have to rack my brain and get back to you (though I do think you get +1 vs armour in certain wargames rules for using one though [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

Ah, it was Big Alf who made those forts, makes sense, and I do take your point that they weren't very defensible. I suppose you could think of them as the bailey of a motte and bailey castle, which were originally generally earth and timber until the later Normans and Plantagenets got round to rebuilding them in stone.

On the battle topic, I think this goes into the subject of the 'ritual' of ancient battles. Often the opposing forces would meet in a nice flat field to do battle against one another, sometimes it was even pre-arranged and in a 'battlefield' where previous battles had taken place (for example the Norse in Ireland). Similar things used to go on in the Pacific Islands last century apparently. However, sometimes armies didn't 'play the game'. For example, the Welsh didn't have the money to spend on armour and warhorses, so ambushed the Saxons and Normans whenever they could rather than fight a 'pitched battle'. I'd guess Saruman preferred to take any advantage rather than indulge in the stylised tactics of our earlty medieval period.

Obviously my personal opinion on Edoras, but I'd always imagined it very clean, (in a sort of Scandinavian way if you know what I mean) well ordered and architecturally more impressive. I'd agree that the film portrayal was far closer in terms of historical veracity. Didn't someone say that a medieval king could be distinguished from his subjects because he was the only one not covered in muck? (I Bowdlerise of course [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Aragorn = Oliver Cromwell, very worrying, does he develop warts? I also had a chuckle at the silly hat, though its amazing what people did wear down the ages, look at the Landschnects!

Ah-Ha, fouind my Panzerstecher reference, but obviously I was a talking rubbish, because its a stabbing sword rather than a cutting one - doh!

The Estoc

A form of long, rigid, pointed, triangular or square bladed and virtually edgeless sword designed for thrusting into plate-armor was the estoc. Called a stocco in Italian, estoque in Spanish, a tuck in English, Panzerstecher or Dreiecker in German, and a kanzer in Eastern Europe. They were used with two hands and similar to great-swords (but were unrelated to later rapiers). They were used in two hands with the second hand often gripping the blade. Some were sharpened only near the point and others might have one or two large round hand guards. Rapiers are sometimes mistakenly referred to as tucks, and there is evidence that during the Renaissance some rapiers may have been referred to as such by the English. In French "estoc" itself means to thrust.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[Bill Ferny]

In response to the above picture of Aragorn, I set myself to drawing how I think he would look as he arrived at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

That is pretty much what I thought he would look like myself, before the movies, and I think that that is a really good drawing.

~Menelien

[Diamond18]

Hmmm... Aragorn the Cauliflower King? Eeep, that sounds mean. I'm sorry, Bill, it popped into my evil little mind and I can't think of anything else... You may throw a barrel of apples at me if you like (or cauliflower...) but the White Tree on Aragorn's helmet and tunic looks a bit more like the White Vegetable.

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

*Cough* Anyway, I suppose Aragorn might look a little bit like Oliver Cromwell. But everything can be compared to something else, if you look hard enough, so I don't mind. (My woeful lack of knowledege about Oliver Cromwell's existence just shines through right now—I had to use Google to see what the heck you were talking about)



[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Luinalatawen]

This is EXACTLY how I pictured Mordor, and this is what it'll look like in RotK. Big expanse of dry, barren land with rocks and mountains here and there, with the orc army marching through... But look at Sam & Frodo... they don't look like Sam and Frodo- scale doubles, I presume. Maybe.

More RotK pictures here:
http://www.kojiroabe.com/rotk/rotk01.html

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Luinalatawen ]

[Bill Ferny]

LOL, Diamond. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] You have a point (and I’m not talking about your head [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). As Mark Twain once said: "Cauliflower is nothing but a cabbage with a college education." Whatever, Sam.

[ May 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Bill Ferny]

Luinalatawen, at first glance I thought that was a movie still, but after looking at it a bit closer, it appears to be airbrush, which leads me to believe that this picture could very well be concept art. Great link!

Rumil, good point about the ritual nature of medieval battles. From the late 12th century onward it was more beneficial to capture a knight and his chattels than kill him out right, as he could be ransomed for a hefty profit (and his horse, armor and weapons wouldn’t have to be scrubbed free of blood and grey matter). The conduct of a typical siege was almost an entirely scripted affair, each major player in the siege acting out customary roles that bordered on the ceremonial. I doubt that the forces of evil would be so courteous, or that a horde bent on genocide would worry about collecting revenue from those they wished to exterminate.

However, there are examples of less ritualistic battles during the medieval period that play out very differently. After all, not every battle pitted European “gentlemen” against each other.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the Battle of Hastings panned out, a longer than usual affair that can serve in contrast.


(Calvary is crowned king at the Battle of Hastings, from the Bayeux Tapestry)

According to Joseph Dahmus, whose depiction of that battle in Seven Decisive Battles of the Middle Ages is one of the better researched ones out there:

William started his vanguard up the slope about nine in the morning. Once his light-armed foot soldiers had reached a point in their march up the hill where they felt their arrows might be effective, they let fly. Against an enemy largely concealed behind shields and other protective devices, these arrows did little damage, and little more was worked on by the pikemen and spearmen with their missiles. By this time the English had begun to retaliate with everything they could throw or shoot - axes, javelins, stones tied to sticks, arrows - and they did this with such abandon that the Bretons to William’s left broke in disorder and turned back down the hill. The panic of the Bretons prompted some of the English to hurry down the hill after them in the hope of decimating them in their confused flight. William sensed the critical nature of the situation and quickly moved in his horsemen to block the English in their pursuit, a maneuver which not only saved the Bretons from disaster but also caught a good number of English in a trap from which none escaped. A number of William’s knights who had penetrated the Anglo-Saxon formation, including the famed barb Taillefer, were slain.

This incident is one of the few details about the battle which the chroniclers describe. Although the fighting went for eight or nine hours, that is, until dusk, and at a furious pace, the reader is left to guess what precisely transpired. It appears probable that the combat assumed the character of a melee - a general, confused, hand-to-hand struggle between groups and individuals – the greater part of the battle taking place on the slope in front of the shield wall through which the Saxon warriors pushed to close with the enemy below. We are told that both Harold’s brothers fell early in the battle. William was himself so hotly engaged that he had three horses killed under him. At one point in the fighting the cry went up that the duke had been slain, a development which would have brought a quick end to Norman resistance, for the tapestry shows Williams raising his helmet and shouting to his men that he was still very much alive.

The French chroniclers, possibly in an effort to explain Norman retreats or even their eventual victory, say that on several occasions – three according to William of Poitiers - William employed the tactic of a feigned retreat. He then counterattacked with deadly effect when the English mistook the retreat for a defeat and advanced too far ahead of their defenses. Some analysts disagree. So experienced a warrior as Harold, they maintain, would not thrice have been duped by the same stratagem, especially since the English from their shield wall enjoyed a good view of the battlefield. The analysts also doubt the ability of William to conduct such a difficult maneuver. Others accept William of Poitiers’ words at face value and insist that the Norman army was so well disciplined that I could have managed a feigned retreat. The slow, cautious advance of the Saxons in front of their protective shield wall would have provided William and his knights sufficient time to regroup their “retreating” foot soldiers for an advance.

As the battle wore on without a decisive turn and dusk began to settle, William grew increasingly apprehensive. Unless he could win the battle before night fell, the following morning would find his tired army facing fresh Englishmen who would be coming up during the night. So, it is said, he gave the order for one last general assault and this succeeded. The shield wall crumbled and , worse, Harold was slain. Even yet all the fighting was not over. As the English fell back and scattered into the darkening forest, some housecarls turned on their Norman pursuers and slew a good number of William’s bravest men before he hurried up and drove off the last of them. In the end, as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle aptly puts it, “the French had possession of the place of slaughter” (105-107).

(Interactive map.)



(Is that a lady in that shield wall? Actually, that may have happened.)

Another example, the Battle of Hattin (4th of July, 1187), pitted the Latin King of Jerusalem, Guy de Lusignan, against the greatest Muslim of history, Saladin. Saladin employed his light calvary to their greatest effect by harassing the Latin army, much larger than his own, with hit and run tactics as the Latin column advanced. His horse, at this point, never engaging outright, but he used his mounted archers to increase the suffering of the Latins already sweltering in the desert heat. By the time King Guy reaches the Horns of Hattin, his army is mad with thirst. The morning of the battle, Guy’s foot soldiers are so desperate for want of drink, and not thinking straight due to Saladin providing them with a sleepless night, they broke ranks and made a mad dash for the Sea of Galilee, temptingly sparkling in the first rays of morning. Saladin’s calvary slaughters them with ease. Raymond of Tripoli attempts to save the situation (?) by charging into Saladin’s horse, but he and his men shot straight through them, and for some reason (which is hotly contested) he simply left the battlefield and returned to Tripoli. What follows is typical of most medieval calvary battles: the Christians and Muslims make charge after charge at each other, each charge followed by a brief mounted melee, then they re-organize to do it all over again with dismounted knights on both sides hurriedly procuring themselves a new mount. In the end, due to exhaustion (and probably, I’m convinced, a bit of treachery on the part of Raymond of Tripoli), the Latins lost, all their nobles captured (except, of course, for Raymond), most sold into slavery, and every Templar and Hospitaller beheaded, though they had started the engagement with superior numbers. Neither Saladin nor Guy took a defensive posture. In Guy’s case, most of his infantry was annihilated in the morning, and Saladin didn’t employ foot soldiers during this engagement. (For the best descriptions of this battle see: The Life of Saladin by Beha Ed-Din, De Expugatione Terrae Sanctae per Saladinum, translated by James Brundage in The Crusades: A Documentary History, edited by Joseph Stevenson.)


(Battle at the Horns of Hattin from a 15th century painting; there was no plate armor at the real battle.)

Compare these to the battles at the Fords of Isen as described by Tolkien. In the first engagement, Théodred encounters the vanguard and scatters it, but when he moves on to attack the main host he finds them in a defensive posture. Obviously, Théodred throws his forces against the main body, but the forces of Saruman threaten to encircle his force from the west. Théodred wisely uses the advantage of his mounted troops and effects a retreat. Then he does something utterly irrational, at least for someone with the instincts of a horseman. He attempts to encamp his forces at the Fords without the benefit of a walled fortification (I did notice that there were apparently earthwork forts, raised areas of land without walls, at the Fords), and, what’s more, he divides his forces on either side of the river. Is it any wonder that “disaster came”?


(Too kewl to looz.)

Now, off their horses, divided, and quickly being surrounded by an enemy that vastly outnumbers them, the Dunlending horsemen and the orcish wolfriders fell on the picketed horses, killing and scattering them. Now the Rohirrim don’t even have their horses anymore, and in a blink of the eye, all the Rohirrim on the east bank are swept away. In essence, Théodred divided and conquered himself, and paid for it at the edge of an orc-man’s axe.

Elfhelm then arrives in time to rescue Théodred's corpse and the remnants of his force. However, in the re-organization, Grimbold and Elfhelm make the very same mistake, Grimbold taking up position on western end, Elfhelm on the east. “All went ill, as most likely I would have done in any case.” Aye, but not for the reason Tolkien provides: “Saruman’s strength was too great.” True, Saruman’s forces were great, but an enemy that leaves itself piecemeal, and negates its only real advantage, would be defeated by a much smaller force regardless. We see Elfhelm, in charge of horse, taking “up his position” and acting “as a screen”, basically sitting still, doing something that any one with horse sense wouldn’t do. Of course, such tactics would be natural for a modern army that would be able to sit in ambush and maneuver separate units, but not for a medieval army without land lines, radios or binoculars. How exactly Elfhelm was to “descry” the east side of the river, or keep track of the activities on the west side is beyond me. With relative ease, the wolfriders drive between Elfhelm and Grimbold, and surround Elfhelm’s horsemen, who are sitting still, of course. The result: both Elfhelm and Grimbold are scattered, to be policed up by Gandalf a day latter.

The difference between the historical engagements and what is described by Tolkien is significant. The Saxons are the ones in the defensive posture, and William negotiates his mounted soldiers and infantry for effect. Both sides do not, nor can they due to the typical chaos of the medieval battle, separate their forces. Tolkien places the Rohirrim in a defensive posture, taking from them their primary advantage of maneuverability, and divides their forces. Saladin uses his maneuverability to harass the Latin army, until that army is driven insane by the horrendous conditions that Saladin manipulates. Maneuverability is the key for the mounted soldier, and if the battle goes sour, the best course of action is to turn and flee. (Thus the importance of the walled fortification that provides a place which to flee.) Even though the Rohirrim were greatly outnumbered, their first instinct as horsemen would not have been to place themselves in a defensive posture, but to use their maneuverability to greatest effect. For example, just prior to the first Crusade, during what is usually called the Pauper Crusade, even though the hodge-podge army of Christians vastly outnumbered the Turks, the Turks simply harried the Christian army into oblivion.

Another interesting battle from history demonstrates the utter disaster that results from a mounted army attempting to stand still without the benefit of a walled fortification. As chronicled by Jean De Joinville, King Saint Louis IX and his army, after winning at the Battle of Mansourah (AD 1250, I think), fell ill from drinking water out of a Nile tributary that was polluted by the corpuses of those who had fallen during said battle. Suffering terribly from scurvy and dysentery, and disadvantaged due to their encampment along a tributary that blocked any means of escape, the Sultan’s army was able to surround the enfeebled horse soldiers who attempted to defend themselves with hastily prepared wooden palisades from their gutted galleys. However, the Saracens used Greek fire to do away with the defenses, and roundly defeated the French, capturing the majority of the sickened army, including the Good King Louis. The whole episode was a tribute to the old adage: “Haste makes waste.” The Crusaders were hoping for a quick victory by driving south and capturing Cairo, but in their haste they neglected to consolidate their gains by taking the time to build adequate fortifications. In addition, they over extended themselves in an unfamiliar territory of confusing mazelike tributaries. The Saracens simply used their knowledge of the Nile tributaries to surround Louis’ army that had been brought to a standstill by futile efforts to cross the tributary and the crippling affects of disease. (Life of Saint Louis, trans. Margaret Shaw.) No calvary man can win by standing still.


(What French knights would have looked like during the time of King Saint Louis IX, from the Maciejowski Bible)

All in all, I’m not too impressed with Tolkien’s depiction of battle. I think his story would have been better if he had beefed up on some military history.

In regards to Edoras… I guess I like my medieval fantasy down and dirty.



I bet I could build one of those for the wife and kids (and for the cow and goat too). I wonder if the privy is inside or outside?

[ May 05, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Holbytlass]

Whew! All I can say is "ignorance is bliss". All in all, I am very pleased in PJ's depictions of places except Edoras. Sure it fits as far as what Tolkien described in the book and yes the villages must have been far between but in the movie it seemed as if Theoden was king over a couple of households. I think PJ should have put in (by computer or something) a couple more villages in the landscape surrounding Edoras. Oh well, we can't have everything.
Good thread.

[Rumil]

Whew Bill, great post,

I'll have to go back to UT to give you a proper response, but overall I agree with you that the Rohirrim were shockingly tactically inept at these battles. Perhaps Wormtongue's poisoned words had convinced them that they had no chance and the only course left was to dismount for a 'last stand' and sell their lives as dearly as possible. Eomer considers this course at the Pelennor fields and late Medieval knights (eg Wars of the Roses) usually fought on foot. However I'd agree that in this situation it was disastrous and added to the splitting of their forces, doomed the Rohirrim.

I like the Bayeux tapestry pic, that's how I imagine the Rohirrim (and by extension Aragorn, since he wore their armour). Though I'd think they would have used the 'couched' lance, which was still not standard practice in 1066.

Have fun building your hovel Bill, but I doubt the family will be too impressed if they have to share with the goats!

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Bill Ferny]

Rumil, they have to share a shanty with me, anyway… a goat here and there isn’t going to make much of a difference… at least they smell better and are much better at mowing the grass.

Speaking of the wife… She pointed out to me that I missed one pretty important factor in the whole Fords of Isen thing. She said, rightly, that the Fords were highly symbolic to Rohirrim, and they believed that they needed to defend them at all costs. She has a point, but I still think Tolkien makes Théodred into an idiot.

Oh, she has another good point: KISS (Keep it short, stupid). Apparently she thought the above post was a bit long winded. But, hey! I didn’t have anything better to do over the weekend.

I think PJ should have put in (by computer or something) a couple more villages in the landscape surrounding Edoras.

An excellent observation, Holbytlass. That would have definitely added some verisimilitude.

Edit: Welcome to the Downs, Holbytlass. Glad to have you along! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Rumil]

Just to respond a little bit more to your big post, Bill, although its a minor point, that's what we're here for, right [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

My impression was that the rout of Theodred's cavalry was caused by them being caught in the flank (by Saruman's cavalry, wolfriders and uruks) just as they were exiting from the ford, being still mounted, but probably in a march column (ie 2 or 4 abreast). This would be a disastrous formation for any unit to be caught in. The horseholders mentioned were, I think, attached to the 3 companies of horse left back at the fords before Theodred's advance. Obviously they weren't doing a good recon job as the Eastern forces of Saruman achieved devastating surprise.

I agree with Mrs. Bill that the fords had a signficance for the Rohirrim which was greater than their real value. In the second battle Elfhelm almost got it right, planning to hold a ridge north of the fords on the eastern side, whereas Grimbold was more determined not to 'abandon his post'. What I reckon they should have done was concentrate east of the ford and immediately south of the road, so that they could hold a sensible position against Saruman's eastern force, while denying use of the ford to the Western force; any attack across the ford could then be repulsed in the same manner as the wolfriders scattered Theo's cavalry. (I'm sure this is fairly confusing, you'll need UT and a map to get it!).

On the battle point, with a re-read I see what you mean about the maneuverability of individual units. As I understand it many medieval deployments consisted simply of a left, right and main battle (perhaps with a vanguard or rearguard on occasion). The individual maneuverability seems more remeniscent of horse and musket era battles where each batallion or regiment had its own chain of command and could be used independently if necessary. Perhaps from the English to the American Civil wars would define the period better.

Oh dear Bill,

and everyone was happy, except those who had to mow the grass

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

btw. Rumil is going on a quest across the sea, not by the straight path, I hasten to add, but to the New Lands where he will attend a meeting of the wise (and rag-tag hangers-on like Rumil) to consider the effects of Sauron's poisons upon the realm of Ulmo. Big C and Lady G have arranged passage on one of Cirdan's ships for the journey to the strange land of Floridor (inhabited, we hear, by monstrous cold-drakes). With the blessing of the Valar, he should return in two weeks time.

Cheers,

Rumil