Hurin and despair

[Kuruharan]

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

-and-

This is quite a sweeping statement Morwen, the whole Narn is written in such a deep shade of grey that even some of Turins 'poorest choices' have or produce elements of goodness and hope along the way.

Numenorean:While I do not want to discount (or seem like I am discounting) your assessments of good being brought out of evil or of the extent of the influence of Morgoth, I am still inclined to agree with Morwen. Turin did have a history of bad choices. He had a rather unstable personality. Remember Melian warning him early in his life to "fear both the heat and cold of his heart." I think that this shows a certain predisposition on Turin's part to rash deeds and poor decision making, apart from any influence by Morgoth's curse.

Someone like Brandir could be thoughtful and considerate of others, but wouldn't men of action like Hurin and Turin be, by definition, of a more reckless stamp?

Not necessarily. "Men of Action" come in many varieties. Some are more cautious and thoughtful than others. Aragorn for instance strikes me as being a man of action but he does not strike me as being a rash man. He is capable of taking risks and making gambles, but he does not do so without taking due thought.

And let us not forget that Hurin and Turin had rather different personalities. Hurin always struck me as being a bit more, well, Steadfast, than Turin. Turin seemed to be a bit more flighty.

As I said above, I think that Morgoth would have cursed Hurin's family regardless even if Hurin had not taunted him. I personally don't consider Hurin's words to be a rash action. He was in a bad situation and it was going to be bad no matter what he did.

Turin, on the other hand, had a bit of a habit of taking awkward situations and making them worse. Note the Saeros affair as an example of this. The example of the destruction of Nargothrond might also apply.

I also wonder what influence Morwen's personality had on events. I have to confess that I have never been fond of Morwen (the character in the book that is, not our good fellow conversationalist in this discussion). She also had a habit of being just a trifle mule-headed at times. Examples: her refusal to go south with Turin, and her mad expedition to Nargothrond. The little trip to Nargothrond in particular made things infinitely worse.

(I have always jokingly said that the thing that prepared Hurin to resist Morgoth so well was being married to Morwen. It might have seemed like a vacation. )

In all seriousness does anybody else have any thoughts on how Morwen influenced the Hurin/Turin situation for good or ill?

[davem]

Morwen has always struck me as too cold & 'stand offish'. It does make me wonder how much her husband & so are trying to 'live up' to her standards. Maybe we should have looked more deeply into Morwen's influence.

Certainly, we never really get to know her. She's quite a 'shadowy' figure. I wonder how possible it would be for anyone, even her closest family, to get close to her. She's one of Tolkien's most difficult characters as far as I'm concerned. I'll have to think more on this though.

[Lalaith]

Funnily enough, Morwen feels very real to me. I suppose that she is very like one of the saga heroines so she presses some cultural recognition buttons. And I really must defend her against comparisons to Morgoth!
She and Hurin clearly had a very good, close marriage. "Hurin, knowing her courage and her guarded tongue, often spoke with Morwen of the designs of the Elven kings, and of what might befall..."
Yes, she was a stern, cold woman, but I have a lot of sympathy for her - like I said earlier, hard times make hard people. She had grown up with great loss and hardship, her people, the house of Beor, had been near-destroyed. And while Rian gave up and died, Morwen stayed on to fight and protect her children as best she could. And the main reason she didn't go straight off to Doriath was that she was heavily pregnant with Nienor.
The part that always sticks in my mind as heartbreaking was when she is sending Turin off to Doriath- she says nothing, but 'clutched the doorpost so that her fingers were torn.' It was the last time she saw her child.

[Numenorean]

Kuruharan:

Remember Melian warning him early in his life to "fear both the heat and cold of his heart." I think that this shows a certain predisposition on Turin's part to rash deeds

Fair points Kuru, but I got the feeling that maybe the only thing Turin cannot feel properly, is self-fear, so is this therefore his failing, or his fate?
As to Morwen Eledhwen, considering the fate of Rian her cousin, it leaves the impression that she had to be as hard as she was to survive such times. Bearing in mind the inherent stubborness and valour of her Beorean kin, it does not suprise me that she chose to remain in Dor-Lomin(in vain hope for Hurin?) for as long as she did. It does suprise me that despite the devastating bleakness of her post-Arnoediad existence, she never once openly despairs, that we know of.

She's quite a 'shadowy' figure. I wonder how possible it would be for anyone, even her closest family, to get close to her

Davem I agree that she does seem 'shadowy'and distant (and by all accounts incredibly beautiful). Yet even after the fall of Hador, Morwen inspires strong loyalty from Aerin and the remenants of Hurins people, though how much of this is due to the barbarism of Broddas rule as opposed to Morwens own attributes, I cannot say.
BTW, cheers for an amazing thread Lalaith The Narn I Hin Hurin has got to be one of the greatest short stories ever written, criminally neglected by the literary establishment.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Now let's not fall back on that old psychological stand by of blaming the mother! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Granted Morwen is not the demonstrative type but clearly both her husband and her son know very well how much she loves them. Turin is said to have preferred his mother to his father apparently because of her disciplined character and straight speech.

Hurin's humor confused and alarmed him, Turin seems to have lacked both a sense of humor and a sense of proportion. Combined with his hot temper that made a recipe for disaster.

IMO the early loss of Morwen's firm hand and controlled example contributed to her son's later instability, of course Nienor had the benefit of both and still turned out as feckless as her brother...

[ May 16, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Aiwendil]

davem wrote:

Isn't this what Hurin does with Morgoth? Defying Him in such a mocking, dismissive way. Hurin failed to take Morgoth seriously. There's a difference between refusing to bow down to evil, & being dismissive of it. Again, we come back to pride. Hurin seemed to believe that Morgoth couldn't do anything to break him or his family - if he even considered his family at that point. Hurin wasn't just putting himself at risk, he was putting his wife & children at the same or worse risk.

I still have a hard time believing that Morgoth cursed Hurin's family only as a result of Hurin's words to him. I think that even if Hurin had remained silent, Morgoth still would have uttered the curse; for what he was chiefly interested in was finding Gondolin - that is, breaking and torturing Hurin. And I certainly don't think that Hurin is somehow to be blamed for the curse, especially in any moral sense.

There does seem in the whole family this same trait, lack of thought for others. Turin returns to Dor Lomin without a thought of what the effect of his behaviour will be on his people. Turin & Hurin both place so much emphasis in their role as 'Lord', but seem not to consider the effect of their behaviour on their people.

I must disagree here too. Turin's actions very frequently are the result of thought for others - it's just that those actions usually go amiss. When he returns to Dor-lomin, he is doing because of what he perceives (as a result of Glaurung's spell) as a very real and imminent threat to his mother and sister. And he also has a real desire to free Dor-lomin from the Easterlings and liberate his people. As it happens, his return does cause some suffering to his people, but this was more a result of impulsive decision making and poor strategy than of a lack of caring for his people.

Findegil wrote:

I don't think it was only friendship. He loved Finduilas but denied the feeling out of allegiance to Gwindor. The motivation was just but the result was bad for all three.

I agree. Also, he did not wish to involve Finduilas with his curse. Obviously, he had done that anyway, without knowing it.

Morwen wrote:

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

That's true. But his decision to go to Dor-lomin was a particularly poor choice that, I think, he would not have made had it not been for Glaurung's spell.

It all comes back to what I said before, he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision. And Morgoth uses this weakness against him.

That's true.

Numenorean wrote:

At his core he is, I feel, essentially a good man who is waylaid and damned by the machinations of a dark 'God'.

I very much agree. Perhaps other people had different reactions, but I always felt throughout the Narn that Turin was very much a hero or protagonist and quite a sympathetic character.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If I've given the impression I don't think Turin was a good, or at least well meaning person, I apologize. Of course he was. But the Curse of Morgoth worked by exacerbating his failings, (hot temper, lack of proportion, impulsiveness, etc.) IMO Turin could have mastered the Curse by working on his self control and cultivating a habit of rational decision making, which basically is what Melian counselled him to do. Unfortunately he never seems to have made any serious effort to follow her advice and so failed to master his doom.

For all Turin's basic kindness he shows a notable insensitivity to others and a history of failure in human, and other, relations. He forgets completely the Elf maiden who raised him. Not only fails to resolve or even control the tensions between his Human outlaws, the Dwarf Mim, and his friend Beleg but seems almost unaware they exist. Misreads both Gwindor and Finduilas in Nargothrond. Makes unecessary trouble for everybody in Dor-Lomin. And manages to stir up all kinds of rivalries and tensions in Brethil, (dispite a real effort to amend his behavior).

He is kind yes, I mean he even shows sympathy to Mim! but he doesn't *think*. It never occurs to him to *talk* to his various followers and work on reconciling them to one another. The contrast between Turin and his father's experience with outlaws is interesting. Hurin, dispite being half crazed, has no trouble at all with his chance found companions.

Now maybe Hurin's outlaws were just a better class of Men, or maybe he was lucky in having an able lieutenant like Asgon, but it seems equally likely that he just knew how to handle Men on an almost instinctive level, thanks to his years as Lord of Dor-Lomin, and those skills kicked in automatically out of sheer habit as soon as he picked up some companions.

[Lalaith]

The point is of course that they - Hurin, Turin, Morwen and Nienor - were *all* essentially good people, who would have been wise and well-loved rulers of their folk had Morgoth not cursed them. That is why the story is so tragic.

[Guinevere]

Wow, this is really a fascinating thread!
I am myself not able to put into words so well what I feel and think, nor of analyzing the characters as you do, but I just want to let you all know how much I appreciate this discussion and your brilliant posts! Kudos!!

As for my opinion, I think I agree completely with what Aiwendil wrote in her posts .
But after all these analysations and explanations, the question that is still bothering me (ever since I read the Sil.) is WHY did Tolkien write such a discouraging, hopeless story? What is the meaning of it? Why this screaming injustice towards Hurin, why the complete absence of mercy from the Valar (or Eru) (Who in other stories could and did interfere) ?

Btw, I wonder if there is any parallel between Job and Hurin?

Lalaith, that's what came immediately to my mind too, when reading the Narn! Only, Hurin's story is worse, because there is no "happy end", no reward for his steadfast belief in the Valar and God. Morgoth was allowed to "prove" that he was right and Hurin died in complete dispair. The implication is that if there is a God, he doestn't care at all for the world and his children.

I have read Tolkiens letters , and there he explains so much about LotR and the characters and his intentions and thoughts about them.
I only wish, he would have written something about the story of Hurin and Turin! Its mood is so very different from LotR.

[davem]

Its not so much a matter of 'blaming the mother', as trying to understand the effect of his relationship with Morwen. He is carrying this, & his unresolved relationships to his sisters along with him through everything. I think it affects his actions to an incredible degree - he kills Saeros purely for that reason. I wonder whether his pain is not down in a major part to the fact that he wasn't able to get as close to her as he needed to be.

As far as Morgoth's curse goes, I can't help feeling that Morgoth was provoked by Hurin's response. If he wanted to find out more about Gondolin I'm sure he could, as the most powerful being in Arda, have found an easy way to get the information. Hurin, for all his justified hatred of Morgoth, treated him as an object of contempt. Morgoth would not simply accept that - he would want to 'make an example' of him.

I do feel though that we have to keep in mind that Hurin & his family are the 'good guys'. As long as we do, its valid to analyse their motivations. Maybe those of us on the 'they brought it all on themselves' side have gone a bit far, but they did bring a LOT of it on themselves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If Morgoth could have forced the information he wanted out of Hurin he'd have done so, *and* cursed his family for good measure.

He cannot wave his wand and turn Hurin, or anybody else, into an obedient zombie. Force and Fear are the *only* weapons Morgoth has against the free will of the Children, weapons that failed notably against Hurin.

And Morgoth *is* contemptible, all the power in the world doesn't change the fact he is a greedy, cowardly traitor to his Father and Siblings who can be tricked and humiliated by a Mortal Man and his Elven Princess, and successfully defied by another 'mere' Mortal. Nor is he any longer the most powerful being in Arda, his evil has gravely diminished him as shown by his inability to change shape.

[davem]

Sorry, but I think Morgoth could have gotten the information out of Hurin quite easily, but I think there was more going on. he wanted to humiliate him, & by extension his enemies.
I also meant the most powerful being in Endor - was rushed at the time I posted (actually still am!) I think Morgoth would qualify as that.

[Kuruharan]

Sorry, but I think Morgoth could have gotten the information out of Hurin quite easily

Then I am afraid that you are missing the point of the entire episode. Hurin's defiance centers around his refusal to tell Morgoth about the location of Gondolin. This is what makes Hurin's actions at the end so tragic because it renders futile the decades of defiance of Morgoth.

There must also be understanding of what the defiance of Morgoth was. It was more than just Hurin's taunts over the course of ten minutes. It was his refusal to speak to Morgoth of the location of Gondolin for thirty years. His silence was part of his defiance.

I am afraid that you are quite wrong about the ease of getting information out of Hurin. Hurin earned his nickname of "Steadfast." Aside from killing there was little else that Morgoth could do to him, and Hurin still would not break.

If he wanted to find out more about Gondolin I'm sure he could, as the most powerful being in Arda, have found an easy way to get the information.

Morwen already capably answered this, but there is something that I will give a little more detail to.

It is evident from some places in the stories that Morgoth still had some of his ESP (for lack of a better word). Note his speech to Mablung at Nargothrond, and the various places in the texts where it says that Morgoth knew more about the deeds and plans of his enemies than was commonly thought.

However, his ability to do this seems to rely on (to some extent) other knowledge of the situation. In other words I think that he had to have somebody there on the ground for him to have knowledge of the situation. I have always believed that there was a little bit of Morgoth in all his servants, and that he kept in touch with these little bits of himself for command/intelligence purposes.

So, since none of his servants could get near Gondolin there was no way that he could find out much about it himself.

he wanted to humiliate him, & by extension his enemies

That is certainly true.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Not completely futile. Though Hurin did give away the general location of Gondolin that information would have done Morgoth little good save for the treachery of Maeglin.

Looking at it another way we might say that Hurin's long defiance bought Gondorlin thirty more years of existence, allowing his nephew Tuor to meet Turgon's daughter Idril and beget Earendil - without whom there would have been no host out of Valinor and no War of Wrath....funny how things hang together in Middle Earth isn't it?

[The Saucepan Man]

On Hurin:

I found Hurin's fate, and his treatment at the hands of Morgoth, to be one of the most shocking and distressing episodes that I have read in the works of JRRT. Davem put it graphically, when he said:

He had been slowly destroyed at the hands of Morgoth for, what, over thirty years. His mind was virtually destroyed. He was seeing the world & events through Morgoth's eyes, & Morgoth's 'vision' was essentially so corrupted that he couldn't see objectively, even if he'd chosen to.

Not only that, but he was made to watch the systematic destruction of his entire family. I cannot imagine a worse fate. Made all the worse, for me, by the fact that his capture was brought about by his loyalty and sense of duty to his lord, Turgon. Death in so doing, as was Huor's fate, I can accept. But to have to undergo what Hurin went through, well it's just utterly horrific.

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."

Absolutely. I find the general treatment of Men by Elves in the First Age to be petty reprehensible. They were certainly considered as "second class citizens", and often seen as no better than cannon fodder. The Fen of Serech is a classic example of that. Turgon seems to have no compunction about leaving Hurin and Huor, and their men, to almost certain death in order to save himself and his people. And the Elves are the ones whose fate on death was known ...

So, in response to Lalaith's original point:

To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife ... Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.

No, I cannot imagine that JRRT ever considered such a fate for him. On his death, his fea would no doubt have gone the (unknown) way of all Men, but he was rightly honoured as one of the greatest among them.

Hurin certainly did not deserve to suffer the way that he did, and it is thoroughly understandable to me that he should end in such despair. But, as Morwen Tindomerel quite rightly points out, he did, ultimately at least, achieve much by his (unimaginable) suffering:

Looking at it another way we might say that Hurin's long defiance bought Gondorlin thirty more years of existence, allowing his nephew Tuor to meet Turgon's daughter Idril and beget Earendil - without whom there would have been no host out of Valinor and no War of Wrath....

No, I cannot imagine that, however he ended his days, Hurin could possibly be damned after all he went through and considering the ultimate outcome of his actions.

On Turin:

Now, there seems to be a general view on this thread that Turin's character, albeit exascerbated by the curse of Morgoth, was the cause of his undoing. It is said that he was rash, hot-headed, unable to think through the consequences of his actions and insensitive to the needs and safety of others. Morwen, for example says that:

... he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision.

Similarly, Aiwendil says:

Indeed, he knows of the curse and is constantly struggling to escape it. It's just that he makes the wrong decisions toward that goal.

Now, while I agree that Turin does make some very poor choices, I also think that Aiwendil makes a very good point when she says:

... though the wrong choices are made, those wrong choices seem reasonable, or at least understandable.

I think that it is possible to see many of the Turin's decisions as entirely reasonable in light of the information before him. It is only with the benefit of hindsight, and being able to see the consequences of his actions, that we can see his choices as being the wrong ones. A good example is his strategy, while in Nargothrond, of taking the fight to Morgoth, rather than waiting for Morgoth's forces to smoke them out.

I think that Aiwendil, again, put it very well when she said:

The prime example of this ambiguity is in the tension between fate and free will that operates in the Narn. Nearly all of Turin's misfortunes seem, on the surface, to be solely the result of his own actions and choices … But we know that there is something else at work. We know that the tragedies in Turin's life are the result, in some way, of Morgoth's curse.

Turin may very well have made poor choices (and quite obviously did in some cases), but did he ever have any hope of making the right ones? Even had he made the correct choices, would the curse nevertheless have caught up with him?

This is, I think, is the great irony of the Tale of Turin Turambar and the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate and yet Morgoth is able, by means of his curse on Hurin's family, to condemn his wife and children to a destiny governed by fate. Turin names himself the Master of his Fate but, in fact, he never has any hope of escaping it.

The physical manifestation of Morgoth's curse is apparent in Glaurung. Both Turin and Nienor are bewitched by the Dragon in such a way that their fate is placed in Morgoth's hands. But, even when Turin makes decisions free from Glaurung's influence, Morgoth's curse is, as Aiwendil said, at work, ensuring that each choice he makes is the wrong one and brings only death and hardship to those around him.

Yes, Turin did have some character failings. But he also had some great qualities. Courage, tactical nous, kindness and compassion (the latter most apparent from his treatment of Mim). He earns the deep friendhip of Beleg (one Elf who I would not categorise as being too "superior" in his treatment of Men) and the respect of others such as Thingol and Mablung. He also inspires loyalty in a band of cut-throat bandits and, through his influence, they not only become an effective and useful military unit but also, it seems, much nicer people to know.

No, I do not believe that the curse of Morgoth worked by playing on his character failings, for he was no worse in this regard (and, to my mind, probably a lot better) than many others. As I see it, the curse worked by ensuring that, whatever course of action he chose, it would be the wrong one. And this, of course, makes him appear to be someone who always makes the wrong choices.

For me, this is what makes his story so tragic. He struggles so hard to evade his fate and yet, as the reader becomes increasingly aware as his story progresses, it is ultimately all to no avail.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I'm sorry I cannot agree. Tolkien himself says repeatedly that Men *are* the masters of their fates, just as plainly as he says Elves go to Mandos. We must therefore accept that as truth.

But just because Men have the potential to master their fate doesn't mean they can do so automatically or without effort, an effort Turin never made.

Melian by warning Turin to be wary of his passions was clearly indicating that these could be used against him. And that by mastering them he would also master the curse.

It *cannot* be coincidence that every single mistake leading to disaster in the Narn is made in a state of unreasoning emotion, by Morwen, Turin, Nienor and Hurin. Now unless you're suggesting Morgoth was controlling their minds, (which he clearly cannot or Hurin couldn't have withstood him all those years) the House of Hurin *must* take some measure of responsibility for the damage they do to themselves and others.

It is true all of them usually had good reason to be distraught and irrational, Hurin especially, but by letting uncontrolled emotion govern them they left themselves open to Morgoth's manipulation. It is clearly not a case of all decisions being wrong but of wrong decisions being made repeatedly and Morgoth taking full and malicious advantage of the fact.

To believe anything else robs the House of Hurin of their Free Will, which Tolkien also frequently and emphatically affirms as central to the nature of the Children of Eru.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm sorry I cannot agree.

Hehe, I knew this would stir things up. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tolkien himself says repeatedly that Men *are* the masters of their fates, just as plainly as he says Elves go to Mandos. We must therefore accept that as truth.

But that, for me, is precisely the tragedy of the Narn I Hin Hurin. Men are supposed to be masters of their own fate, but the children (and wife) of Hurin are prevented, as a result of Morgoth's curse, from enjoying that luxury.

But just because Men have the potential to master their fate doesn't mean they can do so automatically or without effort, an effort Turin never made.

But surely Turin made great efforts to evade his fate. The fact that he failed to so so does not invalidate those efforts. To me, it is more coincidental that every decision made by Turin, exercising free will, simply played into Morgoth's hands.

Now unless you're suggesting Morgoth was controlling their minds ... the House of Hurin *must* take some measure of responsibility for the damage they do to themselves and others.

It is clearly not a case of all decisions being wrong but of wrong decisions being made repeatedly and Morgoth taking full and malicious advantage of the fact.

This is where we get to the nub of it. Whether you believe that Morgoth took advantage of Turin's character failings, or whether you believe (as I do) that he was doomed whatever course of action he chose, the curse of Morgoth is still at work. Even if it is the uncontrolled passion with which he (sometimes) acts that is his undoing, the curse of Morgoth is still robbing him of his free will by ensuring that his natural instincts work to his detriment.

I wouldn't put it as Morgoth controlling his mind, any more than Mandos was controlling the minds of the Noldor as their fate played out. The curse was made, just as Mandos' prophecy was pronounced, and the paths of the protagonists were set. Yes, Turin, Morwen and Nienor had free will to an extent but, however they exercised their free will, their fate would catch up with them. In other words, their free will was delimited by the curse set upon them. Whether through the physical intervention of Morgoth's forces (in particular, the wonderfully malevolent Glaurung) or simply circumstances conspiring against them, the outcome was, unfortunately, unavoidable.

Melian by warning Turin to be wary of his passions was clearly indicating that these could be used against him. And that by mastering them he would also master the curse.

But there is clearly more at work here than simply uncontrolled passion on the part of Morwen, Turin and Nienor. Yes, a number of their actions are governed by uncontrolled emotions. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But, in the case of Hurin's family, those actions inevitably end in disaster. Morwen's decision to leave Doriath and search out her son, and Nienor's decision to folow her are good examples. In different circumstances, those choices might have resulted in a happy family reunion. But, circumstances conspire against them.

And, even had Turin followed Melian's advice and restricted his actions to the purely logical and rational, would he have been any better off? Turin frequently acts on a sensible and rational basis, particularly in his dealings with the outlaws and with Mim. And I cannot really fault the logic behind his strategy of open warfare, while at Nargothrond. And yet, ultimately, his decisions go awry all the same.

To believe anything else robs the House of Hurin of their Free Will, which Tolkien also frequently and emphatically affirms as central to the nature of the Children of Eru.

Yes, this is an issue with which I struggled while reading this fascinating thread. Being fully aware of the central theme of Men being masters of their fate, I tried in vain to see some way in which the tale of the children of Hurin might be seen as consistent with this. But whichever way I look at it, I see the curse of Morgoth as inevitably, and ultimately, robbing Hurin's family of the free will which should rightly have been theirs.

Perhaps the Narn I Hin Hurin is the excpetion that proves the rule. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

*TANGENT TIME*

I probably should have explained my views on this earlier in the thread, but let me take this opportunity to do so.

And I cannot really fault the logic behind his strategy of open warfare, while at Nargothrond.

Turin's strategy of open warfare was wrong-headed, I'm afraid. Fundamentally, it was a mis-assessment of where the advantages of the conflict lay in the case of Nargothrond.

The advantage of Nargothrond lay in the secrecy of its base, combined with the large amount of territory that it controlled (larger than any of the other Noldorian kingdoms, I believe).

In a straight up mano y mano contest, Nargothrond could not hope to defeat Angband. Thus, this is the type of war that Angband would desire to fight.

However, with a secure center and a large domain, the Elves could wage an extremely protracted, messy, violent, costly, and brutal guerrilla war against Angband. This type of warfare was not in Morgoth's interest.

Turin violated a fundamental principle of warfare in that he fought in the way that his enemy desired him to fight, and he did so knowingly. I personally believe that he did this because he let his "chivalry" and his pride get in the way of military principle and practicality.

His reasoning sounds good, and indeed some of them are true, but they are misapplied and used as rationalizations for Turin to do as he wants.

His small open victories were in the end more costly than the smaller victories of ambush could have been because he gave up his primary advantage.

He disliked the policy of ambush for the stated reason that it allowed the orcs to roam freely over the lands. This is an exaggeration. Troops that go along in constant fear of ambush do not go where they would freely. Remember the orcs that Turin chased on the Guarded Plain in his days with the outlaws. The orcs feared the Elves and did not like going there. The orcs were allowed into the domain of Nargothrond, as the saying might go, "All the better to kill you my dear!" This was something that Turin willfully overlooked.

His business about the "time of glory" is an emotional justification of the gratification of his own impulses at the expense of the actual, practical realities of the situation. It boils down to that he wanted to fight in the way that Morgoth wanted him to fight. This in itself may have been part of the curse.

His assessment of the situation that all resistance against Morgoth was doomed is correct. However, for those desiring to actually resist Morgoth, Nargothrond was well situated to put up a good, long, hard, bloody fight.

What Turin did was not fight against Morgoth, he played right into Morgoth's hands.

*END TANGENT TIME*

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Guinevere]

Yes, this is an issue with which I struggled while reading this fascinating thread. Being fully aware of the central theme of Men being masters of their fate, I tried in vain to see some way in which the tale of the children of Hurin might be seen as consistent with this. But whichever way I look at it, I see the curse of Morgoth as inevitably, and ultimately, robbing Hurin's family of the free will which should rightly have been theirs.

Perhaps the Narn I Hin Hurin is the excpetion that proves the rule.

Ah, at last someone who seems to have similar questions as I do!(Otherwise what I was asking was just ignored.) Almost all of those things that Tolkien wrote (in "letters") are relating to the LotR.
I too, find Húrin's fate oddly at variance with the rest of his philosphy. Of course, I haven't read the HoME. Perhaps there can be found a comment on the Narn somwhere in there? ?
But I must admit that in real life it seems somtimes like that. Totally hopeless and Evil is allowed to have it's way and no sign of God at all. Perhaps Tolkien wrote it in just such a mood? After all he wrote the first version in WW I. But the "Narn i hin Hurin" (as in UT) he wrote much later, after The LotR. What were his thoughts about it then?

No, I cannot imagine that JRRT ever considered such a fate for him. On his death, his fea would no doubt have gone the (unknown) way of all Men, but he was rightly honoured as one of the greatest among them.

That is my opinion as well! At least "beyond the circles of this world" there must be justice.

[Lalaith]

On the one hand, you have Tolkien's own belief in free will. This contrasted strongly with the belief systems you find in most heroic/early literature, which are very fatalistic.
I find Narn more on the side of fatalism than free will. I think this is what makes it such particularly grim reading for modern men and women of the western world, where pre-destination is mostly a forgotten doctrine. (With the exception of those who take astrology as their religion... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )
You get the fatalism feeling particularly with Turin, there is this awful feeling throughout the tale of watching a man trying to get out of a marshy bog, everything he does turns out bad. I personally never got the feeling that he was bringing anything on himself, except in as far as his troubles made him increasingly hurt and hardened, so he became more difficult to help.
But Guinevere, you're right, this doesn't explain *why* Tolkien should have made Narn such a fatalistic story.
Btw Morwen - I'm not entirely disagreeing with you either. As Turin becomes more desperate and unhappy he lashes out at those around him...for example the exchange with his aunt Aerin is very telling.

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[davem]

The issue of free will is central - Flieger makes a big issue of the fact that men are stated by Tolkien not to have been bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (including Elves, which means, according to her, that Elves have no freedom of choice, which I find difficult to believe, but Tolkien stated it clearly).

Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted? That would make him far weaker & more stupid than I always imagined. Yes, Morgoth wanted to find & destroy Gondolin, but he was in no desperate hurry. He was convinced of his ultimate victory, convinced the Valar would never intervene. His pride would never allow him to contemplate defeat by the Elves. All the time his forces were growing. He wasn't desperate to win, as far as he was concerned, victory was a foregone conclusion.

Of course he was wrong about all that, but I really can't believe he would take all that time over Hurin, if he felt he was up against time. Its the very callous & dismissive way he treats Hurin that convinces me he was 'playing with him, like cats with poor mouses' to pararphrase. I think Hurin is maybe less important to Morgoth than Hurin would like to believe. He plays with him, destroys his family before his eyes, & then throws him out to wander, hoping he'll do some damage.

The real horror of the story for me, is that Morgoth inflicts such cruelty, for fun. Morgoth isn't desperately trying to get information out of Hurin. He's biding his time, building his forces for an inevitable (as he thinks) victory, & Hurin is just entertainment.

Hurin is a man. He couldn't defy a Valar. Morgoth might have been weakened, less than he had been, but don't forget what he HAD been. He would have had to fall a long way for a man to be able to defy him. Come on, Finrod couldn't hold out against Sauron. Are we saying Hurin could defy Morgoth successfully?

[Findegil]

originaly Posted by davem:

Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted?

There is no question at all that Húrin could do that and that Morgoth did know he could. The fea of any individual was in its will unbrakeable it could be dominated by fear especialy when incarnated in a body by the fear of bodily damage and could be deluded. But both ways were not effectiv with Húrin. All that information can be found in Ósanwe-kenta.
But of course your argument is not void. Morgoth delighted in the play with Húrin otherwise he would have killed him yust on the spot, because the chance of geting information form Húrin was very small even when it turned out that Húrin in the end did give Morgoth all the info he had about the location of Gondolin.

originaly posted by Guinevere:

Almost all of those things that Tolkien wrote (in "letters") are relating to the LotR.

That's not to be wondered about. JRR Tolkien published in his lifetime (only considering books that deal with Middle-Earth) The Hobbit; The Lord of the Rings; The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road goes ever on (oh! I nearly had forgotten the reading of The Fall of Gondolin that he made once for a aditory).
All the rest of his lifelong writtings on the matters of Middle-Earth are posthum publications. So it is clear that nearly noboddy could ask him any questions about the Narn î chin Húrin and the other storys in the First and Second Age. And thus we can not expact him to give answeres to unasked questions his letters.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Oddly enough I have never seen fatalism in the Narn. What I see, and what I think Tolkien *intended* for the reader to see, is how good people could be manipulated, (*not* controlled) by evil.

The decisions and choices were *always* in the hands of Hurin, Morwen and their Children. They were not foredoomed to make the wrong decisions the chose to do so through lack of thought and self-mastery.

Tolkien, through Manthor, states in so many words that the 'curse' worked by encouraging the fault and flaws of the victims. But because Men are the masters of their own fates, and their own wills, and their own hands, (proven again by Hurin's defiance) the curse can be overcome - it just wasn't.

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Turin violated a fundamental principle of warfare in that he fought in the way that his enemy desired him to fight, and he did so knowingly. I personally believe that he did this because he let his "chivalry" and his pride get in the way of military principle and practicality.

Kuruharan, I agree that Turin’s strategy was, viewed with the benefit of hindsight, the wrong one. But I think that he chose to pursue it for very understandable and logical reasons. The logic in his strategy which I cannot fault is that which Aiwendil quoted in an earlier post:

... victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse.

Remember that Morgoth’s force that entered the realm of Nargothrond was “greater far … than any scouts had told”. I am sure that Turin felt that he could halt the advance of Morgoth’s army, at least temporarily, while inflicting heavy losses on it. In that, he was mistaken, but only as a result of inaccurate information. Moreover, while Turin did recognise that, ultimately, resistance would be futile, he also recognised that the same result would come about, albeit in the longer term, if nothing was done to halt Morgoth’s advance save to harry his forces through “guerilla warfare” tactics. In those circumstances, it seems to me that his decision to face Morgoth’s forces head on was a fair and reasonable one.

The decisions and choices were *always* in the hands of Hurin, Morwen and their Children. They were not foredoomed to make the wrong decisions the chose to do so through lack of thought and self-mastery.

Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will. They did not have the freedom to make the wrong choices without suffering the consequences of the curse.

But I do think that there is more to the curse than that. If it only came into effect in the event that they made the wrong choices, then it becomes virtually meaningless, since anyone can bring about their own misfortune without any need for a curse by consistently choosing the wrong course of action. In those circumstances, the tale would become, for me, less of a tragedy and more a straight catalogue of errors, and I would not see Turin as a tragic hero at all, but simply someone who brought all his troubles upon himself.

[Kuruharan]

... victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse.

As I already said before, those were not real victories that Turin was winning. They were bait, no more no less. Victory is not always really victory if it is being deliberately used to lure you on to disastrous defeat.

And as I also already said, Turin's speech was exaggerated. The Elves of Nargothrond were not "doing nothing" against Morgoth. They had fairly realistically assessed their chances and followed the course that offered them the best chance of holding out longest, until Turin arrived. Their mode of fighting was not suited to Turin's proud disposition and he persuaded them to change it.

There cannot be much more to it because a logical assessment of the situation says...

Nargothrond could not win in open warfare with Angband. This, then, is how Angband would prefer to fight.

If Nargothrond wants to fight Angband it would do best to adopt a style that Angband does not expect and does not desire.

Finrod, being a smart Elf, thought this out (with a little help from Ulmo no doubt) and adopted the guerrilla strategy.

Turin, being a not-as-bright human, either didn't recognize or ignored the realities of the situation. He wanted to fight in the way that he wanted to fight, and that was that.

So, I don't think that Turin's strategy was particularly fair or reasonable. He had enough information at hand to know that his way would not last long, if only he had cared to take a look at it.

When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy. There was nothing that could save them then. Turin had chosen to play that game, and Nargothrond had to pay the price for it.

*Ahem-Cough* Anyway...

Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will.

Why would that be any greater restriction on free will than you have to do a certain thing in order to be doing the right thing?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Surely, Morwen, if they were required to make the right decisions in order to escape the curse of Morgoth, then that in itself is a restriction on their free will."

Okay I don't understand this at all. The essence of free will is freedom of choice, right? The fact that certain choices are wrong and will lead to disaster if made does nothing to negate that.

"They did not have the freedom to make the wrong choices without suffering the consequences of the curse."

Last time I looked none of us have the 'freedom' to make to make bad choices without suffering consequences - so why should the Hurin family?

But you're looking at this the wrong way around. If they made wrong and foolish choices the curse would make the consequences even worse than they would naturally have been *but* had they made the right choices the curse would have been negated - am I making any sense at all?

"But I do think that there is more to the curse than that. If it only came into effect in the event that they made the wrong choices, then it becomes virtually meaningless, since anyone can bring about their own misfortune without any need for a curse by consistently choosing the wrong course of action."

I wonder if maybe that's the point? The principle of self fulfilling prophecy might apply here.

"In those circumstances, the tale would become, for me, less of a tragedy and more a straight catalogue of errors, and I would not see Turin as a tragic hero at all, but simply someone who brought all his troubles upon himself."

Uh - I thought that was exactly what a tragic hero was; a Man who dispite his gifts brings disaster on himself and others through his own flaws of character as well as external agencies - at least that's what my English teacher said...

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy. There was nothing that could save them then. Turin had chosen to play that game, and Nargothrond had to pay the price for it.

I understand the points that you are making. And I agree that Turin's strategy was the wrong one. All I am saying is that the reasoning which led him to pursue that strategy (in light of the information available to him) makes sense to me, so I see it as the product of rational thought rather than pure, uncontrolled emotion.

Why would that be any greater restriction on free will than you have to do a certain thing in order to be doing the right thing?

The essence of free will is freedom of choice, right? The fact that certain choices are wrong and will lead to disaster if made does nothing to negate that.

Precisely. If Turin's doom is brought about solely by choices based upon the exercise of free will, then the curse of Morgoth is superfluous. If, on the other hand, Morgoth's curse played some part in his downfall, then this represents a restriction on his free will, to the extent of the part played by the curse.

I thought that was exactly what a tragic hero was; a Man who dispite his gifts brings disaster on himself and others through his own flaws of character as well as external agencies (emphasis added)

So, if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?

[davem]

Findegil, I accept that Morgoth couldn't break Hurin's spirit, only his mind & body. But he was clearly ONLY interested in seeing Hurin's spirit broken, which is why he dealt with him as he did. I think the starting point of that desire was the way Hurin spoke to him when he was brought before him. Morgoth would not have taken that from a 'pathetic, upstart human'. Morgoth decided to completely break Hurin.So, while from our point of view, everything Hurin said about Morgoth was true, Morgoth simply was not going to respond 'You know, Hurin, yopu're right, I have been a thoroughly bad lot over the years, haven't I?. So, it was Hurin's PROUD defiance of him that provoked Morgoth into what he did to Hurin. Actually, I don't much think he cared about destroying Turin & the rest of his family - that was just a good way of teaching Hurin a lesson & breaking his spirit.

[Numenorean]

Unless I misunderstand you Kuru (and it wouldn't be the first time [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) You seem to hold Turins tactics, strategy and mindset wholly responsible for the fall of Nargothrond?

“When the overwhelming force was unleashed by Morgoth, that was the result of Turin's policy.”

But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour:
Silm. (P.253)

“So great was his prowess and skill in warfare on the confines of the Guarded Plain that he himself became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword”

and as a result:

“In the time that followed Turin grew high in favour with Orodreth”

Ok, so Turins idea of warfare differed from the Elves, but for a while it worked, and Orodreth had the power of command to lead Nargothrond whichever way he so desired. As we know he opted to follow Turins councils, so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer. The coming of Glaurung though was inevitable. Given his super-senses of eyesight, influence and awareness, I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.
As to the power or extent thereof of Morgoths curse upon his victims, I found the following statements from Gwindor about Turin quite interesting:
Silm. (P.253)

A doom lies on him

and
Silm. (P.254)

...his right name is Turin son of Hurin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed. Doubt not the power of Morgoth Bauglir! Is it not written in me?

It seems that Gwindor is in no doubt that the power of the curse is very real and not to be underestimated. To me this ties in with what the Saucepan dude stated:

if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?

And Davem I agree with your claim about Morgoth that:

I don't much think he cared about destroying Turin & the rest of his family - that was just a good way of teaching Hurin a lesson & breaking his spirit

Morgoth was confident enough that through his power in the curse the family would inevitably be destroyed. If their 'free will' had been any kind of threat to the curse itself, he would surely have failed to ruin them all as utterly as he did.

[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Lalaith]

Lets not forget that Morgoth had Hurin captured alive beforeHurin had said anything to defy him. He clearly had plans for him already. Why? Here are some possibilities:
1. He wanted, as lots of us have already pointed out, to find Gondolin.
2. He wanted to make an example of him. Hurin, before he had said a word to Morgoth, symbolised something to both men and elves - he was supremely brave and loyal, and his actions at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad defied everything that Morgoth stood for, far more than any words he could have said. Hurin dead would just be another corpse, but Hurin spiritually overcome would really be something, a great show of power. As Turgon said: "Even Hurin Thalion has surrendered to the will of Morgoth."
3. He wanted to drive a rift between men and elves. To alienate Hurin, who previously had been prepared to give up his life for the Firstborn, would be a great achievement for him.

And Saucepan Man, I'm so glad you feel the same way about that wretch Turgon. To use Thalion as cannon fodder. Fie and shame.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"So, if at least an element of Turin's actions can be governed by the curse, going against the general rule that Men have free will, then why should they not all not be so governed?"

External factors influence *all* human choices. If it weren't for said factors there would *be* no choices. It is the power to make choices that is the essence of free will. Turin's *actions* were *never* governed by the curse. His actions were without exception self chosen.

Turin *chose* to take the actions that led to Saeros' death. He *could* have controlled his (justified) anger and brought the matter before Thingol instead of deciding to impose a punishment of his own devising leading inadvertantly to Saeros' death. Whereupon rather than answering for his deeds to Thingol, he decides to flee as a self declared outlaw. And none of these bad choices can have been influenced by Morgoth since his power cannot reach into Doriath.

This however establishes that Turin is rash, thoughtless, and impulsive. After leaving the protection of the Girdle the 'shadow' described by Manthor falls on him encouraging his natural faults and increasing the chances for further bad decisions but *not* causing them. Turin continues to be the master of his own actions. He could have minimized the effect of the curse, even negated it altogether by mastering his faults. Unfortunately he never does.

[Kuruharan]

Ahhhh! My favorite time in the thread, when there are three different lines of discussion to keep track of...hee hee hee.

I see it as the product of rational thought rather than pure, uncontrolled emotion.

Well, there was some sort of thought that went into this. We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision. (I think that I may have just exceeded my quota for words in one sentence ending in "gree.") However, for me the strongest line of evidence is...

But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open... (emphasis mine)

Seems just a bit emotional.

But are we forgetting a crucial factor of anothers free will here? Specifically the free will of the King of Nargothrond and his subjects at this time, Orodreth. He alone led his people, and at no time do I recall Turin seizing power from the King, he earnt his respect through military success and valour....so is it not then Orodreth who should ultimately be blamed, if blame is therefore being served? Without the order of the King, the Elves of Nargothrond may indeed have maintained their stealth & run tactics, for a while longer.

This is certainly true. Orodreth bears a heavy part of the blame. However, the change in policy was Turin's idea, so he also bears a heavy part of the blame.

(Orodreth was not the brightest bulb on the porch.)

I think that the Fall of Nargothrond, given the Doom of the Noldor, was also therefore fait accompli, whether Turin was there or not.

Yes it was. I never believed that they could hold out indefinitely. They could have held out longer than they did and made a much greater bloody snarl of things.

But he was clearly ONLY interested in seeing Hurin's spirit broken, which is why he dealt with him as he did.

I think you are right in your point, to a certain degree. However, Morgoth was clearly interested in matters beyond breaking Hurin. He hated and feared Turgon because he believed that ruin would eventually come to him from Turgon. That in and of itself provides some other interests in the matter. Hurin knew where Turgon might be found, and Morgoth wanted to know that.

Precisely. If Turin's doom is brought about solely by choices based upon the exercise of free will, then the curse of Morgoth is superfluous. If, on the other hand, Morgoth's curse played some part in his downfall, then this represents a restriction on his free will, to the extent of the part played by the curse.

Perhaps it should not be looked on as a restriction so much as an encumbrance. It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

that wretch Turgon

My Gracious...

[The Saucepan Man]

We may just have to agree to disagree on the degree to which each ingredient played a role in the decision.

Agreed. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The degree to which logic on the one hand and emotion on the other influenced the strategy adopted by Turin does not really affect my central point on the manner in which Morgoth’s curse operated.

And none of these bad choices can have been influenced by Morgoth since his power cannot reach into Doriath.

I see no reason why the curse of Morgoth, once pronounced, should not affect Hurin’s kin wherever they might be, even while they are in Doriath. It does not follow from the fact that Morgoth’s forces cannot physically enter, that the curse will be prevented from operating while they are there. Indeed, both Morwen and Nienor make decisions central to the ultimate outcome of the curse while in Doriath: Morwen’s decision to search out her son and Nienor’s decision to follow her mother. I don’t see Morgoth as having influenced those decisions, or indeed Turin’s actions with regard to Saeros. It is more that the events conspire to ensure that the consequences of the courses of action that they choose lead them further towards their doom.

External factors influence *all* human choices. If it weren't for said factors there would *be* no choices. It is the power to make choices that is the essence of free will. Turin's *actions* were *never* governed by the curse. His actions were without exception self chosen.

Yes, external factors do influence human behaviour. And, in the normal course of events, their existence is compatible with the concept of free will, as choice is freely exercised within the external parameters which are set. But here, we are talking about a curse. And not just any curse, but one uttered by the most powerful being in ME (originally the most powerful being in all of Arda). The way I see it, the curse operates by bringing the external factors, which would normally define the exercise of free will, together in such away that they effectively limit, and ultimately negate, the subject’s free will. Yes, choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

... the 'shadow' described by Manthor falls on him encouraging his natural faults and increasing the chances for further bad decisions but *not* causing them.

It dragged him down and made it more likely that he would perform certain actions, but it did not keep him from doing something else.

But this illustrates what I was trying (probably very badly) to explain. If the curse is influencing Turin’s fate by increasing the chances of his decisions going awry, then it is limiting his free will. This is not a case of an external factor indirectly influencing his behaviour, such as a mountain in his way causing him to go round it, but an external factor which is having a direct effect on his capacity to make decisions. In these circumstances, Turin’s choices are not wholly his own. His capacity for free choice is, to some degree, restricted by the operation of the curse. So, if the curse operates in this manner, then it will inherently involve some circumvention of the concept of Man’s free will.

However, I see it as operating slightly differently. Turin does have complete freedom to decide the course of action that he takes in response to any given situation. The curse does not increase his chances of making the wrong decision, but ensures that, whatever decision he does make will be the wrong one, effectively (and ultimately) robbing him of his free will. And it is in this context that I see the tragedy of the tale: no matter how hard he struggles, through choices freely made, to avoid his doom, it is all ultimately to no avail.

And now, I think that I am starting to repeat myself [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] , so we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, Morwen. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lalaith]

choices may freely be made in response to individual situations, but circumstances will ultimately conspire against the subject so as to seal his or her fate.

Free will is a Christian concept. The pagan North European believed in "luck" or fortune: gaefa in old Norse. Translate it as luck, fate or fortune, it is a complicated concept, and packs far more of a moral punch than the word "luck" does in our modern world picture. A man of luck - gaefumadr - does things and they work out for him. He is a man you want on your side. Meanwhile, a man of ill luck constantly causes rows and upsets wherever he goes and whatever he does, and eventually his 'ogaefa' (ill luck) becomes so overwhelming that astute and sensitive people can pick him out as what he is, even in a crowd. To me, poor Turin was very much an 'ogaefumadr', a man of ill luck. That's what I meant when I said that the Narn felt more pagan than other works of Tolkien. By bringing the curse of Morgoth into it, I wonder if Tolkien wasn't bringing a clearer moral lens to the puzzle of pagan 'gaefa.'

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"And now, I think that I am starting to repeat myself , so we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, Morwen."

I know I'm repeating myself. Yes, let's agree to disagree.

[davem]

I wonder how much Morgoth did fear Turgon & the power of Gondolin - His forces destroyed the city in less than a day. We have to keep in mind that, within ME, the accounts were written by his enemies, Elves & Men. Tolkien was well aware that all historical accounts are biased. Look at the stated facts, not the Elves' interpretations. If Morgoth was REALLY afraid of the power of Gondolin, he simply wouldn't have played with Hurin for so long. I suspect he was a lot more confident than is made out.

I don't think Morgoth had any plans for Hurin, or intentions for his fate before he was captured - how could he know he would be captured? I think he was probably surprised (& happy) that he got him, but his plans would have been formulated there & then. He was thinking on his feet. Hurin was a 'gift'. He decided on his course of action based in part on how Hurin behaved before him. If he'd been really desperate to get infomation from him, he'd have put Hurin through torture, broken his mind & got it.

Tragically, I don't think Morgoth saw Hurin as anything more than a proud upstart who needed breaking, & teaching to respect his 'betters'. The fact that he could also do more damage in a wider context would just have been seen as a bonus.

[Lalaith]

But davem, the Silmarillion says "but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth."
The implication being, surely, that they would have just put him to death, like the others, but that Morgoth had particular plans for him.

I find it a problem in this discussion that there are various bits of the story in two different books, the Sil and UT. Does HoME have a complete narrative, can anyone tell me?

[Findegil]

The History of Middle-Earth is not giving full storys of things given in bits in other books. The natur of The History of Middle-Earth is to give even more bits not less. In the case of the Narn î Chin Húrin you will find in the The History of Middle-Earth a chapter about Dríhavel the poet of the Story, a further discription of Hurins and Hours stay in Gondolin, a further acount of the Nirneath Arnoediad, a few drafts for the revelation of the truth about Níniel to Túrin that were not taken up in the story and last but not least The Wanderings of Húrin which discriebed Húrins dealings in Hithlum after his release his approch towards Gondolin and the disaster of Brethil promoted by Húrins coming before the text braeks of.
In addition you can find some older telling of the story (espacialy The Lay of the Children of Húrin)that will add much detail but are not cannon.

Posted by davem:

If he'd been really desperate to get infomation from him, he'd have put Hurin through torture, broken his mind & got it.

Morgoth tried exactly that. But he found him harder than he had expacted. Then he tried to bride him over by the promis of wealth and high rank in his army. But that didn't work either and led Húrin only to mockery. I think that what angered Morgoth mostly was that Húrin precived the truth: Morgoth hadn't any way to get the information out of him as long as he was steadfast.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Numenorean]

Sorry for not letting this aspect of the thread die out, but when Morwen said:

Turin *chose* to take the actions that led to Saeros' death

and Saucepan followed with:

I see no reason why the curse of Morgoth, once pronounced, should not affect Hurin’s kin wherever they might be, even while they are in Doriath

It got me thinking about a couple of things in the Narn that could also be relevant. In his youth Queen Melian the Maia watches over Turin and sets another to do so in her absence, Nellas. Why though? Wasn't Doriath safe for him? Did Melian perceive that the curse would find a way to reach Turin, even within her protected realm?
Given the actions and behaviour of Saeros, she was far-sighted to do so. Which of course leads me to Saeros. What the hell was he on? By all accounts he treated Turin with nothing other than than contempt throughout his formative years. It amazes me that Turin held himself in check for as long as he did, even so "...the silence of Turin displeased Saeros as much as his words" So whatever way we look at it Saeros was out to mock and injure Turin. But what was his black motivation, maybe because he (Turin) was a kinsman of Beren? That seems too loose an association to warrant such 'veiled malice' against lets face it, an innocent youth.
The words of Mablung after the Saeros/Turin dinner table confrontation - U.T (P.81)- offer room for speculation:

...if either be slain it will be an evil deed, more fit for Angband than Doriath, and more evil will come of it...I think that some shadow of the North has reached out to touch us tonight. 'Take heed Saeros son of Ithilbor, lest you do the will of Morgoth in your pride, and remember that you are of the Eldar.'

Saeros of course heeds nothing and instead tries to kill Turin in cold blood from behind, no warning or honor, just a dirty sneak attack that does seem like he is doing the 'will of Morgoth in his pride'. Saeros activated a dark chain of events and brought his doom on himself, but more so on Turin, Morwen and Nienor. Which takes me back to Nellas the maiden, if she hadn't still been watching over Turin, the whole sorry Saeros episode would likely have never been fully explained, and Turin thought guilty of baseless murder. Did Melian therefore forsee that the curse was always going to find its mark, even in Doriath?

[davem]

Findegil, its maybe not something to get into, but I think if you look into it at all, you'll see that torture ALWAYS works. Sorry, but the human body is incredibly sensitive to pain, & also to psychological torture. EVERYONE breaks. They just do. Unless they die first. Morgoth could have broken Hurin, if he'd felt it was important enough. I think the 'torture' Morgoth inflicted on Hurin was designed to cause him extreme pain & distress. But not to get information.

If Morgoth was truly afraid of the power of Gondolin, he would have continued with the torture, not stopped, until Hurin had either told everything he knew, or had died in the process. Come on - Morgoth, REALLY TERRIFIED, gives up on trying to get the info out of Hurin?? No, Morgoth was up to something else. Basically, slowly try & destroy Hurin's spirit, because he took pleasure in that kind of thing.