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Old 03-02-2005, 09:21 AM   #41
narfforc
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Sorry Halbarad, But you are putting a living mortal slant on your point. The Nazgul, and that includes their Black Captain, were subservient to the will of Sauron, they had virtually no independent thoughts for power and glory, beyond the designs of their dark master. There would be no power struggle between them, therefore The Morgul Lord would not have worried about his Lieutenant, Gothmog, being a powerful Nazgul. Minas Morgul was the home of The Ringwraiths, The Lieutenant of Morgul was Gothmog. If Gothmog was not a Nazgul, what was he?. Do not forget, Sauron thought that Aragorn may have had The One Ring, He would not send another powerful, independent thinking man to retake it, and maybe fall prey to its corruption. The only beings he could trust were The Nazgul, taking The One Ring, they would have returned it to him. The Hierarchy of any army or battlefield would have demanded that the second most powerful individual would have taken control after the death of The Lord of the Nazgul, and we all know who that was. Tolkien called him The Lieutenant of Morgul, being an ex army officer himself, he would have known that Lieutenant means: An army Officer next below Captain, so who on that battlefield was next in rank below The Black Captain? an Orc! or maybe a Troll even, it had to be something if it was not a Nazgul, so of which mighty race was it.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:32 PM   #42
Halbarad
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You forget that Sauron used men too. Let's look at the Mouth of Sauron. Of him it is said that he was a living man and a great sorcerer.
Quote:
...yet this was no Ringwraith, but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad Dur he was....and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery; and he knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.
A rumoured Black Numenorean he was. This proves that Sauron had powerful Men in his employ: long lived, very powerful, and deeply involved in the big boss' plans. Gothmog could have easily been a twisted man.

I agree that Sauron wouldn't want someone too powerful wresting the ring from Aragorn, if he did indeed have it, so my point falls a little flat. My only counter to that would be that some of Sauron's closest and most trusted servants were there of their own free will, for example the Lieutenant of Barad Dur. Most of Sauron's servants were in fact slaves- orcs, trolls, variags- or men who worshipped Sauron as a God (Easterlings, for example). So, if they were to get the Ring, they would have taken it to Sauron, because the rewards would have been tremendous. Remember, the Ring worked to get back to Sauron, so it wouldn't need to twist a servant taking it back to Sauron. Also, a servant of Sauron would know the fate in store for someone who tried ot keep it away from him, so fear would be a very powerful influence on their actions.

As for the Nazgul not craving power/domain, I said that it was a more contentious idea so your objection is noted. However, I think it is possible because of the arrogance the Witch King shows on both occassions when he speaks. He had cunning and he had a mind that could doubt (read the encounter between him and Eowyn). Look also in The Siege of Gondor, where he says
Quote:
Old fool, this is MY hour
(emphasis mine). Not "Sauron's hour", but "My hour". Sure the Nazgul were completely in thrall to Sauron, but they had full cognitive power (who would lay a siege without the ability to think laterally or whatever), and the rings were originally given to them because they craved power, so that, to me, says that they had the capacity to be jealous. It's a side issue, though.
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Last edited by Halbarad; 03-02-2005 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:25 AM   #43
narfforc
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The desire for power corrupts, yes Sauron used men, but he didnt trust them. We do not know for certain that anyone taking the Ring would hand it over willingly to Sauron. If it entered their mind to become more than what they were, who knows what power the ring would exert. The Ring wanted to be reunited with its master, but in this it failed utterly, certainly none of its bearers ever entertained the idea of giving it to The Dark Lord. There were many times during the journey to Mordor that the Ring`s self-determination could have come into play, most notably, at the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, surely the Ring knew its fate. Sauron trusted none but the Nazgul, for they, through the power of One Ring were extensions of his own being, not even The Lord of the Nazgul would have had the power or the will to break the hold Sauron had on them, but men are unpredictable, treacherous and had unquenchable ambition. Though Melkor hated Men, he also feared them, for Iluvatar had bestowed strange gifts upon them, which those who had sang in The Ainulinale knew well. Although the Nazgul were originally men, they were something quite different by The War of the Ring, they were slaves of the Nine Rings and dependent on the power of The One Ring, and the Power that resided within The Great Ring was of the being of Sauron.
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Old 03-03-2005, 06:41 PM   #44
Halbarad
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Granted.

If Sauron did not trust men, why was the lieutenant of Barad Dur a man who was deep in his plots? In the whole history of the Ring never once did a being already in the service of Sauron handle it. We cannot know (don't get all post-modern on me now) whether a servant of Sauron would have claimed the ring as his own. The greatest power the Ulairi had was fear; complete and utter fear, and so fear of Sauron would have had a slave or a servant return the ring to its master.
Back to my point. If Gothmog was indeed a man I doubt that Sauron would have had much fear of him claiming the Ring. He feared Aragorn or some other powerful Lord takign the Ring and using it against him, and let's not forget that Aragorn was a powerful Man, and Gothmog, if he was a man, would not have had the same innate power for the Ring to give power to. So, Gothmog could have been a man.
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Last edited by Halbarad; 03-03-2005 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:26 PM   #45
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well it's already been answered above, but i'll just put my two cents in anyway. the Nazgul (or ringwraiths in Westron) were once great kings of Men. Once they accepted the Nine Rings from Sauron they were slowly transformed into his servants. Serving as his highest ranking lieutenants, during the War of the Ring, they searched endlessly for the One Ring.
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