The Greatest of the Eldar

[Daniel Telcontar]

BW is right, the discussion is going in circles. I think we should accept each other's opinion, 'cause we will never convince each other anyway.

[Lush]

Ya know, even the bickering about Balrog wings, or lack thereof, was more entertaining than this.
I think of it this way: Tolkien created a complex, detailed world, with many complex, detailed characters. Different people, with different definitions of greatness may read about these characters, and develop their own opinions and ideas regarding each and every one that are based on their own individual values. If one feels very strongly that Finrod Felagund, to make an example of one of my own favorite Elves, is the greatest of the Eldar because of his self-sacrifice, one may very well bristle a statement akin to: "Tolkien says that's not the case, so shut up."
I think that an author's ownership of his work, once that work is made public, lessens to some degree, therefore we should be allowed to have our own opinions of his characters, while applying to them our own unique definition of greatness, and without being told that our thoughts are irrelevant. Furthermore, If Tolkien's definition of greatness is just what obloquy says it is, then it somewhat different from mine.
However, I thinks it's cool that a writer who's female characters were mostly in the background would state that Lúthien Tinúviel is the greatest of the Eldar. And I don't think it's because she was the most beautiful either, though beauty seems to have been of great importance to Mr. Tolkien in regards to his female characters.
Oh, and burrahobbit, I think that Galadriel was hotter than you give her credit for. Remember how Fëanor went wild for that hair of hers? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

So she was the largest of the Eldar? I always imagined her as petite.

Hey now, Mr. Barrow-Wight, tall women can be pretty too. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

You misunderstand the graph, Lush. A regular Elf, by the standards of Men, is totally super hot. Galadriel is more than three times as hot as a regular Elf. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty hot to me.

[Lush]

Oh, Ok. Reading graphs was never a skill of mine anyway, as is evident by my SAT scores. And while we're on the subject of hotness, how come is it that someone said that Dior was the most beautiful of all the creatures on Earth? Didn't it say specifically say in the Sil that that honor belonged to his mum?

[Daniel Telcontar]

One quote says that when he took the Nauglamir around his neck, he was the fairest of the world's children, a child of both elves, humans and maiar. Luthien was maybe more beautiful, I just used this quote as an argument that you can't rely to much on a single quote.

[burrahobbit]

One quote says that when he took the Nauglamir around his neck

But not before. Add to that the fact that the fall of Doriath was largely written by Christopher Tolkien.

[Belin]

Besides, when Luthien wore it, she was so beautiful that she died. You can't beat that...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[the phantom]

Actually, Dior was only the fairest because Luthien was no longer alive. He's declared the fairest when he recieves the Nauglmir (spelled correct?) set with the Silmaril, and the reason he gets it is because Luthien is dead (tough to be the hottest when you're rotting in the ground). I remember text saying something along the lines of "Dior was now the most fair.." the emphasis is on now, meaning he was only the fairest because Luthien was dead at this time. So no, this isn't a textual contradiction. Not that it really matters. I think Luthien was the greatest, but I don't think it's fair to put her in the same boat as the Eldar because she was part angelic being. I would vote for Feanor. That dude rules!

[O'Boile]

obloquy
look at your very first post. You give conflicting quotes, one saying Galadriel and Feanor are the greates, and one saying Luthien. I don't see how you can say there is not conflict.

[Legolas]

O'Boile

The quotes say Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldorin elves and Luthien is the greatest of all elven kindreds.

[burrahobbit]

Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldor. Luthien isn't a Noldo.

[Galorme]

There are many elves who are referred to as 'great', there are others who are referred to as mighty (Glorfinel/fingolfin) and skilled (Daeron/Beleg). I expect that when writing the scattered works of the Sil Tolkein showed favour to the charactor he was currently writing about.

I think that when editing Christopher Tolkein was very careful to never attribute the same title ("Greatest Elf") to two elves, and the fact that Galadriel was the greatest Noldo and Luthien the Greatest of the Eldar was more a by-product of Christopher's editing, probably because of the association of Tuniviel with his mother.

Saying this i do personelly feel that Lútien is the greatest Elf with the exception of the later Half-Elven.

[obloquy]

The texts in HoMe are not edited for consistency. The quote I gave was from a piece of text that was speaking of Galadriel and Feanor, not Luthien.

[Elendur]

I think we should take hybrids into account here. It is not fair that pure elves would be measured against elves who are half Maia. I accept that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar. For you people saying she only ever did one great thing, that is not a good argument. She never went out looking to do heroic things. She did it for her love of Beren. It is the same with Ingwe. He hasn't really done anything heroic, yet he is revered by all elves. That is because he is great. What you do doesn't make you great, you just are and that will show when you are put in the position to do great things. I have always like Luthien. She bested Melkor by herself and did it all for love.

But I come back to my original point. Pure elves shouldn't be measured against hybrids like Luthien. Yet she is considered one of the Eldar. Its unfair. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I have always like Glorfindel and Fingolfin best.

[burrahobbit]

Life's not fair, babe. You can't go around excluding people that have natural advantages. It isn't like she took steroids or something. She was born great and she managed to be an Eldar at the same time.

[Elrian]

Sounds like his definition of greatness was meant in an all around way. Galadriel was great in her own way, yeah she made a phial, took over the rule of the Galadhrim and some other great or not so extremely great deeds. Feanor created some Silmarils, that a Valar coveted. When his father was killed and his gems stolen he went absolutely ballistic and goes on a quest to recover his own, whereby he kills his own kind to gain ships, then deserts his own followers by taking the ships then burning them so the rest of the Noldor cannot follow the quest that they swore some oath for. Luthien who is just some half Telerin Elf or Sindar, half Maia, never been to Valinor, hasn't seen the light of the two Trees, goes on a quest for love to gain the Silmaril from Morgoth, sings him simple so they can recover the stone. Then when her guy dies she follows him and sings yet another Valar into submission and gains life albiet a mortal one for herself and her guy. So why was this Luthien so great, hmmm with the power in her song she could do what those other two could never do,heck she could get what ever she wanted from the Valar all she had to do was sing! She did what she did for love, not power, or material gain, or revenge. She was also prettier and more well loved by her people, she didn't desire power like the other two. Also by Tolkien himself saying that she was the greatest of the Eldar should be proof enough.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

circles within circles...to me, also, Luthien is probably the "greatest" of the Eldar in that she wielded the most power, was at the least one of the bravest, and was most beloved of her people...to be corny, the power of love is the greatest power of all
my favourite, however, is Finrod Felagund

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Some people might be hovering the Downs looking for a thread on why Tolkien decided that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.
Y'know, looking for Luthien discussion.
Maybe those poor souls skipped over this popularity vote unknowingly.

Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Discussion over.

But, digress if you will....

[Manwe Sulimo]

If you want to go for the greatest *suggested* Eldar, you can't go wrong with the Three Kings of the Three Kindreds, Ingwë, Elwë, and Finwë. You could probably add Olwë in there, too. After all, they were the kings of the Kindreds, were the first to see the Light of Telperion and Laurelin, and highest in the favour of Manwë. To go even further, Ingwë was the highest, for

The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered ito Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name....The Vanyar were his people; they are the Fair Elves, the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few among Men have spoken with them."

Silmarrilion pp.52-53.
If you are going by the opinion of the Lord of the Valar or the Eldar themselves, it's Ingwë.

[Maédhros]

Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Discussion over.

Ah, but the question is the greatest in what?
Was she the greatest craftmen of the Eldar? I think not.

If you are going by the opinion of the Lord of the Valar or the Eldar themselves, it's Ingwë.

Oh, please. The Valar in their history had made many mistakes, and i wouldn´t take the choice of Ingwë into consideration for the greatest. After all, were was he in the war of Wrath. He was in Valinor under the protection of the Valar, instead of in ME were his people were fighting.

[Manwe Sulimo]

But his *son*, Ingwiel, led the Host of Valinor along with Eönwë.

[Lush]

Yes, but just because your son did something brave and cool, doesn't mean that you should be included under that umbrella of courage and coolness. Basically, you can't be great by association.

[Manwe Sulimo]

I never meant it that way, but, oh well. Take it as you will.

[obloquy]

Ah, but the question is the greatest in what?

Wrong. This is not the question. Many people think it is, which is why it has been so difficult for them to wrap their brain around Tolkien's very simple statement. Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness. The issue of her greatness isn't bound up in her deeds or her specific "powers," either. It was just damn good genetics.

Yes, she had an unfair advantage, nobody is denying that. Does that change her nature as an Elda? Nope. Does that change Tolkien's statement? No.

Was she the greatest craftmen of the Eldar? I think not.

This is speculation. We don't have any account of her applying herself to crafts.

Good post, Elrian. I like this part:

She did what she did for love, not power, or material gain, or revenge.

[Legolas]

"After all, were was he in the war of Wrath. He was in Valinor under the protection of the Valar, instead of in ME were his people were fighting."

Perhaps he was being intelligent by staying in Valinor. He knew that's where he was supposed to be, and if the other elves weren't intelligent enough to complete the trip, then they could fend for themselves. They should have followed him and stayed on the journey.

Though I still don't think he was the greatest...I think it's unquestionable. Luthien was. If you disagree, it's possible that you're illiterate.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i agree with daniel telcontar on all that was said.

[obloquy]

I can see that you're going to fit in well here, Morgoth Bauglir.

[Elrian]

A friend of his I assume as it is your first post and first posts are usually in the Novices and Newcomers forum [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I agree with so and so in any post in any forum with nothing more to add is a wasted post or Spam as it is called.

The High Kings did nothing more than go to Valinor as Ambassadors for their people, and lead their people to an island to be taken to the West. They did no mighty deeds. Feanors Silmarils were hallowed by Varda, or they would not have been as great as they were. Feanor would never classify as greatest all around Elf.

[Lush]

Obloquy & Elrian, you're not related by any chance, are you? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

As for the issue of Fëanor, for all his talents and potency of spirit, his screw-ups outweigh all that in my opinion. He lacked kindness, and Tolstoy has convinced me long ago that there can be no greatness where kindness is missing.

[Galorme]

People talk about Lúthien not making anything? What about her magic cloak that she wove from her own hair? It even put Morgoth to sleep (not her singing as many think) and stagered Sauron when he was in full charge, as well as rendering her nearly invisable.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

i forgot my old pass but ive been here for a while reding what you say...

am i considered a noob because i said i agree?and, btw, i dont even know him i just thought his points were good, and i kinda disagree with obloqu (sp heh)

just because i havent posted alot doesnt mean im a novice, i know quite a bit about tolkin

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

legalos: I may have misunderstood, but you say that Ingwë was intelligent enough to stay in Valinor, and if the others didn't complete the journey it was because they were stupid. But don't you realise, that the journey he didn't do was the War of the Wrath, where his people the Vanyar fought along with the remaing Noldorne, or is there some other explanation?

And I do not know Morgoth Bauglir, but I don't understand why you are so hostile against people who don't rely totally on one quote, but who make up their own mind. That whole Dior discussion was because I said he was the fairest, based on one quote. I don't think he was, but it proves how one quote can be understood differently.

Lastly, I think Morgoth Bauglir did well in giving his support. I was glad to know that someone understood me, and agreed, thus proving that I am making some sense.

[Maédhros]

Wrong. This is not the question. Many people think it is, which is why it has been so difficult for them to wrap their brain around Tolkien's very simple statement. Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness.

No. You can´t be the best in everything. While she might be the greatest in certain things, she certainly isn´t the best artisan of the Eldar. I would give that to Feanor, who after all made the Silmarils.

In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth, as is told in the Quenta Silmarillion.

I don´t see any statement made by JRRT that supports that Luthien was better at crafts than Feanor. Neither in the creation of words.

We don't have any account of her applying herself to crafts.

So wouldn´t JRRT mention if she made something as great as the silmarils.

Feanors Silmarils were hallowed by Varda, or they would not have been as great as they were.

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gaveit back in hues more marvellous than before.
All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them

Fëanor´s silmarils were hallowed by Varda because she was filled with wonder by the works of Fëanor. Her hallowing the Silmarils didn´t made them greater or more beautiful, it just made them "untochable" to evil hands. They were already the best work ever done by an eldar.

[Elrian]

We are not trying to find great artisans here, Feanor made the Silmarils we all know that, he was the greatest artisan , but not the greatest Elf.

Morgoth Bauglir, how can you even argue a point when you can't even spell? Obloquy has a point, several of them in this thread as a matter of fact.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Obloquy said that Luthien was the greatest Eldar meaning she had the most potent spirit; And I can agree to that, since she was half maia. But she is not the greatest craftsman, or warrior, and my point is, that is for each reader to decide whom they think it is. Tolkien disliked allegory, because it was something the writer decided, not the reader; I think he would agree that each reader should read the books carefully, and study them, so that he may decide for himself, instead of taking on quote and then never think of it again. The discussions that we have about the greatest elf encourages everyone to consider whom they think should be considered, and why, thus making them studying the books more.

PS: Don't point out people's spelling errors unless it is so disturbing you don't understand the meaning, many don't have english as their native language, and it isn't fun for them to have their mistakes pointed out.

[Lush]

Tentatively, we have established that Fëanor is the greatest craftsman. That does not, however, raise him above the status of Lúthien. There are too many negative aspects to his nature. Furthermore, one can even argue that Fëanor had a weakness of spirit, when one considers his inability to deal with his anger, his rashness, cruelty, etc. A greater being, in my opinion, would not have acted like Fëanor did.
Moving on, I think the quote that so concerns Daniel in regards to Dior is :
"The Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir;and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm."
Pretty straightforward, one would think, except for the fact that we all "know" that Lúthien was the fairest. To her applies this quote:
"And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be."
Someone who has only read the Silmarillion can easily be confused by the above. Can this be explained by the fact that Lúthien was the fairest over all, while Dior only looked so good when the Silmaril was on his neck? Of course, I have yet to read the Lost Tales. Can anyone who has read that far comment on this?

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Well the reason I made a post about that quote was not because I wanted to debate Dior's looks, but I guess that that is what has happened.
I think Luthien was the most beautiful; The quote says "now", meaning after her death. And Luthien was said to be more beautiful, with the silmaril around her neck, that was possible in the mortal lands.
Dior is not described like that, only that now with the silmaril he was the fairest.
Conclusion: Luthien was more beautiful, but Dior come close and is probably number one when it concerns males.

[Lush]

I wasn't debating looks. You can't really debate looks of fictional characters whom you have never met before. I was commenting on how confusing the whole issue can be.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Lush I'll comment though I've yet to read the lost tales :S from that quote it sounds to me as if, at that particular moment, Dior was the fairest alive...however at this point his mother had died, so she could no longer be "in contention". Therefore when Tolkien said that Luthien was the fairest that was or ever shall be...this applied to all ages, but his reference to Dior implied only the Children still living.
I could be mistaken of course...*shrug* [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Feanaro]

"Furthermore, one can even argue that Fëanor had a weakness of spirit, when one considers his inability to deal with his anger, his rashness, cruelty, etc."

I would disagree entirely. I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

As for the rest of this topic, oblo did not throw a theory out into the fray. He answered a question by stating the author's opinion, which, when applied to his own works, is law. This is not to be contested. This topic should not have carried on for this long. If you don't agree with this, fine, but don't try to argue against the author's opinion (which is much more important than your own on such a subject).