Elves and the Tuatha de Danaans - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Glofin · 05-29-2003, 07:51 PM

I must thank every one who has posted on this thread. It has been quite an interesting read.

I have studied the Irish myths and tales for a long time and have come to love them all. And being of Irish descent I take pride in them. I don't try to analyse them that just takes out all the magic. I believe in the old tales. To me they are far more real than TV and Wal-mart. It would be a dull world without the tales of the old days, and without beings such as the Tuatha de Dannan. I prefer the old days my self.

I of to Rivendell, Namarie

Frodo Baggins · 08-10-2004, 05:15 PM

My Dearest Glofin! You have fully stolen the workds from my mouth. Thank you for adding weight to my discussion. I am dragging up this thread to see what other debates I can catch.

P.S. ANYTHING seems more real and worthwhile than Wal-Mart.

THE Ka · 08-13-2004, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

I was talking with a good friend of mine several weeks ago about a few things and they brought up the fact that Tolkien's inspiration for the Elves was based on a people of Irish legend, (that are based on fact, I assure you they were real people) known as the Tuatha de Danaan.

It is said that the Tuatha de Dannans lived in Ireland before the people known as Fomorians, who are related to the Phoenecians and came to Ireland from Spain and France. The Fomorians opressed the Danaans and eventually defeated them, but they did eventually merge into one people, the Celts. There are similarites between the Danaans and the Elves:

Aftern the Danaans were defeated the retreated to remote places and became known as Fairies or as some called them Elves or "shee" in the Irish. The Danaan are descrbed as Fairies that live underground in caves. In The Silmarillion it says "Then the Quendi wandered into the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and starlight[in Irish lore, fairies came out at night],and into the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-Earth." I believe in LOTR Galadriel also said something about elves that never left Middle-Earth dwindled and lived in caves.

It is said in Irish legend that the Danaans had vast knowledge, and were especially talented healers and Musicians (hint hint). It is also said that the Danaans carried long leaf-shaped swords(remember, many elvish swords were leaf-shaped). It is also noted that some of the outsiders that encountered them thought they were gods (remember htat the first men that came to Beleriand thought Finrod Felagund was one of the Valar).

So are they Elves? The de Danaans were real people, and no mistake for that, but legend has a wierd way of twisting reality. What do you think?

Not to be mean but, i believe you have the Fomorians confused with the Milisians. After their defeat, the Danaan retreated underground, preferibly hills. Thus, later becoming "Faery Knolls", "Faery Hills", or "Faery courts". Once in awhile they invited humans to join their courts for sleep and rest, which usually one night became more like several years. This also became associated with "Faery rings" circle groupings of toadstools or other fungi that were considered dangerious to enter into. (One common fact in Irish folk myth was to make sure you had at least one foot outside of the circle, thus avoiding the fact that you would be swept into a circlear dance with the faeries for about seven years, even though to the tresspasser it might seem only several minutes.) As for the Danaans weapons they did carry leaf-shaped weapons, otherwise called "elf shot" or "elf arrow". It was considered both an good an ill luck to aquire or stumble upon one of these.

Some great references for those who are interested in learning more about these wonderful people are listed below:

Faeries by: Brian Froud and Allen Lee

Celtic myth and Magic by: Edian McCoy

Where have the Giants gone? by: Brian Froud

Hope this aids the thread

see you all soon!

Blessed Be,
THE Ka

Glofin · 08-13-2004, 11:25 AM

Well, this has all proved a very interesting read. (As did the re-read) However while the similarities between the Tuatha De Dannan and the elves are true, there is also allot more to the subject than Tolkien just throwing in some Celtic mythology into his books. Even in England you have old Celtic traditions that survive to this days, if festivals and folk tales and things of that nature. Some of the Celtic influence is due to the VERY complex history of the British Isles where you have Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Norman cultures mixing. England is really Anglo-Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. But that is another story.

If I were to go into that I would be writing tomorrow morning. Yet I would like to set a few things straight about the Tuatha De Dannan, whether as a historical people or the gods of myth, as well as a few other errors with some Irish history if have read.

First of all with Tuatha De Dannan in particular, you have to realise that the legends we are reading now have come a very long way from the origins. It is known that the Christian monks who wrote them down would sometimes change certain details and have certain gods dying or this or that to promote Christianity. Also before the stories were written down, you have hundreds of years of embellishment being added to the stories. Then last of all, you have the translation itself. Really the translations are retellings and also colour the stories and interpret it in different ways due to the politics, social conditions, and limited knowledge of the subject at the time of the translations.

Many of the books today are still on the OUT DATED theories of the Victorian era. i.e. people trying to understand things, and sometimes making very wide stretches with certain facts. Much in the same way most people think the Vikings had horned helmets when they never really did.

It is a fact that there are many different translations about the both the origins and the relationships between the different Celtic peoples. Some of these are now being proved or disproved be recent DNA studies with Irish, Scots, Welsh, and people from Northern Spain and Gaul.

But it is pretty safe to say, that the Milesians, the Fir-bolg, and the Tuath de dannan, are different groups of Celts, migrating to Ireland at different times. The Formor, are also most likely a celtic people too. It is also important to note that there was no language difference between all these peoples, this is one reason why they are most likely all Celtic in origin.

But for the most part, the stuff about the Formor being a dark people, and being from Iberia, or the myths about the black Irish, or the darker pre-Celtic people in Ireland being consider fairies, or inferior in race, is all complete and utter bosh brought about by lack of facts in the Victorian period. It is mainly a way of explaining the existence of fairy-folk, monsters of legend and other odd bits and ends of Irish mythology, that has since been disproved.

For example there are no “Black Irish”. The “Black Irish” have the very same DNA (R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype) as the Irish with Red, Brown or Blonde hair. The term Black is meant to describe hair colour.

One of there great mistakes in Celtic history is trying to separate the Proto-Celts, and the Celts. There ARE the same people. What we know as Celtic today did not just spring up out of the rocks. It had to develop. Nor once it developed did it sweep across Europe wiping out all that was already there. Celtic language and Celtic culture developed from the Proto-Celts. So really there is no difference, genetically they are the same people. This means that the Celts, did not wipe out the Proto-Celts, but actually the proto-Celts became what we know today as the Celts.

Still I am in no way un-thankful to the Victorian scholars and their interest in Celtic myths and culture. In fact it is mostly thanks to them that it still survives to this day unbroken from the Bronze Age.

The Milesians, the Fir-bolg, and the Tuatha De Dannan are all of the race of Nemed, which is related to the race of the Parthalonians which I think were mentioned earlier on this thread. This genealogy however is beyond saying one thing is right or wrong, since it goes as far back as the human race can remember. The best thing to too is to examine, ALL the different translations and try finding the most common version. Even in the myths there are different variations.

The Book of Invasions, especially its beginnings are very foggy. This is mainly because the original myths have been tampered with so as for all early races to be traced back to Noah of the Ark.

Now, in regard to the similarity between the Tuatha De Dannan and Tolkien’s elves:

Most of the similarities have already been discussed, however I will add a few of my own observations. First the underground strongholds of the elves, remind me much of the “fairy-mounds” of “Na Síthe” (Irish for the fairy-folk) which were supposedly their underground dwellings and strong holds.

Then there are the obvious similarities in appearance between the Tuatha de Dannan, and the elves, in particularly the Woodelves. This is also reflected in the language of the Woodelves, Sindarian. Still there are some shared characteristics between the Tuatha de Dannan and the Noldar as well.

However, I would not take the Celtic influence in Middle Earth too far. It is there, and strong in certain areas. Still it is among, the Norse, and very heavy Anglo-Saxon influences.

I believe that in truth, the make up of middle earth, is as complex as the make up of England. I seem to recall Tolkien once saying that one of his reasons for writing Middle Earth, was to give England a Mythology of it’s own.

The truth is that England is a beautiful land, that has belonged to many peoples, namely the Celts, (including the Welsh) the Norse and Anglo-Saxons, and last of all a ruling class of Normans. And it is this complex mingling of cultures that shows through in Middle Earth.

Glofin

Elennar Starfire · 10-18-2004, 07:35 PM

Fascinating thread! Wish I had time to read all of it, but my sister needs the computer for homework now...so I'll post what I've got so far, anyway.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Also, Valinor is based on Tir-Nan-Og (I believe that's the correct spelling...not entirely sure though), the Land of Youth, which lies across the sea to the West.

Quote:

And a little off topic I must add in the Wheel of Time there are a group of people called the Tuatha'an who do not commit any violence. Is there anything like that in the Tuatha de Danaans?

I noticed that myself, and wondered. I also noticed the connection (having recently read The DaVinci Code) between the WoT word sa'angreal and sangreal, or Holy Grail.

Quote:

Hey Lyra, don't forget the Aes Sedai, sounds a bit like Aes Sidhe. Methinks that Robert Jordan may know his mythology.

Now that one I hadn't noticed, but thank you for pointing it out!

turgon · 10-31-2004, 10:22 AM

Interesting thread. I never heard of the tuatha de dananns. But am intrigued to find material on the subject. thanks

05-29-2003, 07:51 PM	#41
Glofin Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2003 Location: Mississippi Posts: 19	I must thank every one who has posted on this thread. It has been quite an interesting read. I have studied the Irish myths and tales for a long time and have come to love them all. And being of Irish descent I take pride in them. I don't try to analyse them that just takes out all the magic. I believe in the old tales. To me they are far more real than TV and Wal-mart. It would be a dull world without the tales of the old days, and without beings such as the Tuatha de Dannan. I prefer the old days my self. I of to Rivendell, Namarie __________________ Not all those who wander are lost

08-10-2004, 05:15 PM	#42
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	My Dearest Glofin! You have fully stolen the workds from my mouth. Thank you for adding weight to my discussion. I am dragging up this thread to see what other debates I can catch. P.S. ANYTHING seems more real and worthwhile than Wal-Mart. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-13-2004, 11:25 AM	#44
Glofin Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2003 Location: Mississippi Posts: 19	Well, this has all proved a very interesting read. (As did the re-read) However while the similarities between the Tuatha De Dannan and the elves are true, there is also allot more to the subject than Tolkien just throwing in some Celtic mythology into his books. Even in England you have old Celtic traditions that survive to this days, if festivals and folk tales and things of that nature. Some of the Celtic influence is due to the VERY complex history of the British Isles where you have Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Norman cultures mixing. England is really Anglo-Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. But that is another story. If I were to go into that I would be writing tomorrow morning. Yet I would like to set a few things straight about the Tuatha De Dannan, whether as a historical people or the gods of myth, as well as a few other errors with some Irish history if have read. First of all with Tuatha De Dannan in particular, you have to realise that the legends we are reading now have come a very long way from the origins. It is known that the Christian monks who wrote them down would sometimes change certain details and have certain gods dying or this or that to promote Christianity. Also before the stories were written down, you have hundreds of years of embellishment being added to the stories. Then last of all, you have the translation itself. Really the translations are retellings and also colour the stories and interpret it in different ways due to the politics, social conditions, and limited knowledge of the subject at the time of the translations. Many of the books today are still on the OUT DATED theories of the Victorian era. i.e. people trying to understand things, and sometimes making very wide stretches with certain facts. Much in the same way most people think the Vikings had horned helmets when they never really did. It is a fact that there are many different translations about the both the origins and the relationships between the different Celtic peoples. Some of these are now being proved or disproved be recent DNA studies with Irish, Scots, Welsh, and people from Northern Spain and Gaul. But it is pretty safe to say, that the Milesians, the Fir-bolg, and the Tuath de dannan, are different groups of Celts, migrating to Ireland at different times. The Formor, are also most likely a celtic people too. It is also important to note that there was no language difference between all these peoples, this is one reason why they are most likely all Celtic in origin. But for the most part, the stuff about the Formor being a dark people, and being from Iberia, or the myths about the black Irish, or the darker pre-Celtic people in Ireland being consider fairies, or inferior in race, is all complete and utter bosh brought about by lack of facts in the Victorian period. It is mainly a way of explaining the existence of fairy-folk, monsters of legend and other odd bits and ends of Irish mythology, that has since been disproved. For example there are no “Black Irish”. The “Black Irish” have the very same DNA (R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype) as the Irish with Red, Brown or Blonde hair. The term Black is meant to describe hair colour. One of there great mistakes in Celtic history is trying to separate the Proto-Celts, and the Celts. There ARE the same people. What we know as Celtic today did not just spring up out of the rocks. It had to develop. Nor once it developed did it sweep across Europe wiping out all that was already there. Celtic language and Celtic culture developed from the Proto-Celts. So really there is no difference, genetically they are the same people. This means that the Celts, did not wipe out the Proto-Celts, but actually the proto-Celts became what we know today as the Celts. Still I am in no way un-thankful to the Victorian scholars and their interest in Celtic myths and culture. In fact it is mostly thanks to them that it still survives to this day unbroken from the Bronze Age. The Milesians, the Fir-bolg, and the Tuatha De Dannan are all of the race of Nemed, which is related to the race of the Parthalonians which I think were mentioned earlier on this thread. This genealogy however is beyond saying one thing is right or wrong, since it goes as far back as the human race can remember. The best thing to too is to examine, ALL the different translations and try finding the most common version. Even in the myths there are different variations. The Book of Invasions, especially its beginnings are very foggy. This is mainly because the original myths have been tampered with so as for all early races to be traced back to Noah of the Ark. Now, in regard to the similarity between the Tuatha De Dannan and Tolkien’s elves: Most of the similarities have already been discussed, however I will add a few of my own observations. First the underground strongholds of the elves, remind me much of the “fairy-mounds” of “Na Síthe” (Irish for the fairy-folk) which were supposedly their underground dwellings and strong holds. Then there are the obvious similarities in appearance between the Tuatha de Dannan, and the elves, in particularly the Woodelves. This is also reflected in the language of the Woodelves, Sindarian. Still there are some shared characteristics between the Tuatha de Dannan and the Noldar as well. However, I would not take the Celtic influence in Middle Earth too far. It is there, and strong in certain areas. Still it is among, the Norse, and very heavy Anglo-Saxon influences. I believe that in truth, the make up of middle earth, is as complex as the make up of England. I seem to recall Tolkien once saying that one of his reasons for writing Middle Earth, was to give England a Mythology of it’s own. The truth is that England is a beautiful land, that has belonged to many peoples, namely the Celts, (including the Welsh) the Norse and Anglo-Saxons, and last of all a ruling class of Normans. And it is this complex mingling of cultures that shows through in Middle Earth. Glofin __________________ Not all those who wander are lost

10-31-2004, 10:22 AM	#46
turgon Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Annagroth Posts: 57	Interesting thread. I never heard of the tuatha de dananns. But am intrigued to find material on the subject. thanks __________________ "What I have left behind I count now no loss, needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages" " MIGHT IS RIGHT, DISSENT IS INTOLERABLE"