Sauron - Physical form in The War of the Ring or not?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That side of The Great Eye Debate is literal-speaking gone mad.

Up until The Council of Elrond did anyone think that Saruman was just a single white hand? No, and with good reason.

[Em]

Not meaning to argue with you olorin, but Odin was a very complicated character, both good AND evil, he had a much darker side to him, just as he gives he takes, he does not heitate to kill if it suits his plans and he obeys no law but his own. No one can trust him completely. The necromancer in the hobbit was inspired by these dark qualities of Odin. i think that Tolkien uses the GOOD side of Odin to create Gandalf, and the BAD side to create Sauron.And anyway, Sauron wasn't always bad.

[Lord of Angmar]

And anyway, Sauron wasn't always bad.

True. He was only bad for several thousand (or million?) years.

[Em]

WELL HE WASN'T!!!
I'm not sticking up for him by the way. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Em]

Well, that exlains the 'eye' theory, but why don't we ever see Sauron? p.s did you know, Sauron's name comes from an old norse wod meaning 'detesable' or 'abominable'?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

We never see Sauron because at the time of the War of the Ring he never went out of Mordor. That is why none of the hobbits saw him, and remember that the story is written by hobbits [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Exactly. The only time we are ever given descriptions of Sauron are in The Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales, both of which are accounts from an Elven or Human point of view.

[Em]

Yeah, but what are the descriptions?

[Lord of Angmar]

Yeah, but what are the descriptions?

Here is the description of Sauron as I recall it:

A giant lidless eyeball was he, wreathed in a terrible flame. At times he would go uncloaked through the land; and it is said that the terror instilled in the hearts of those that saw the Great Eyeball marching with his fell hosts was so great that they would gouge out their own eyes and fall stricken to the ground.

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Lord of Angmar! Don't frighten the newbies! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


Let me rephrase that. We're never really given a word-for-word description of what Sauron looks like, but we have a general idea of his form:

• First Age: possibly a "fairer" form, Gorthaur the Cruel (black, clawed, etc. VERY SCARY)
• Second Age: Annatar/Aulendil (perhaps Elvish looking, but with a strange glint in his eyes, which was what probably tipped off Gil-galad and Galadriel)
• Third Age: merely a presence, though some claim that he manifested himself as a giant, flaming eyeball

That is the general information that we have.

[Gil-Galad]

i was reading the downfall of Numernore, SAuron died when teh island was destoyed, it said his spirit fled back to Mordor, and regained shape as a giant thing in heavy armor(or something liek that)

[Em]

So Sauron was this 'presence'?

[Lord of Angmar]

Em, Sauron was a Maia, and as such did not have any exclusive physical manifestation to represent his spiritual being (that is, until after the fall of Numenor). He could change forms to deceive and influence lesser beings, but once he caused Ar-Pharazon to draw the wrath of the Valar and of Eru Iluvatar, he lost his ability to change forms to please the eye forever, and could never take the form of something lovely, attractive, benevolent or charming again.

[Em]

So was he just a spirit and a flaming eye then?

[Boromir88]

A simple quote will end this argument (hopefully it hasn't already been brought up). Eomer has already said Saruman isn't just a big white hand (lol ha). But anyway onto the quote...

The Palantir
In a low hesitating voice Pippin began again, and slowly his words grew clearer and stronger. "I saw a dark sky, and tall battlements," he said. "And tiny stars. It seemed very far away and long ago, yet hard and claer. Then the stars went in and out - they were cutt off by things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling round the tower. I thought there were nine of them. One began to fly straight towards me, getting bigger and bigger. It had a horrible - no, now! I can't say.
"I tried to get away, because I thought it would fly out; but when it had covered all the globe, it disappeared. Then he[sic] came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood...

No one can force the palantir to lie. Pippin saw "him," and if he saw him, then that must be his physical form, and again no one can force the palantir to lie.

[obloquy]

The argument was settled a long time ago. For some reason it is difficult for some people to read before they post. I predict that, since you have resurrected the topic by posting to it, several people will now read the initial post, and, without bothering to read any responses (or any Tolkien, for that matter), they will ejaculate their own ignorant ideas and/or redundant evidence for this or that side of a nonexistent debate.

Edit: But since you've dug up the thread, some may be interested in the topic I linked to above. Instead of editing the posts here, I'll just provide a link to the thread on the new forum. I've recently updated the links in it at the request of a forum friend.

[Morzan29]

Though many here have theorized against the Eye as being Sauron's only physical form, I would like to mention a curious idea that has come to mind. Imagine Sauron as the Necromancer having a wraith-like form in the Hobbit book but afterwards returned to his homeland of Mordor to build his armies and regain his power. I believe fully that the Eye is his shade's form manifested. No matter what Smeagol said of his torture in Mordor, this Eye is the form in which Sauron takes shape since any spirit of his order (like Gandalf) can choose their body. The Eye doesn't bark around orders to every Orc, man, and slave under his control. That would be rediculus. Much like any king or lord, his advisers do the dirty work and speak for him on common errands to his subjects.
This body he has taken is not simply the Eye though. Sauron's mouth (his top human errand boy) is a speaker to his army and even talks to Aragorn on the battlefield since that point is an important moment that the direct speaker for Sauron must be at. Maybe the Mouth is the only thing that speaks telepathically to the Eye inside the Dark Tower. The Eye is Sauron! The Mouth or Sauron speaks, the Eye sees all, and what i find very cool but no one seems to notice is that the nine Ring Wraiths are his NINE remaining fingers...... This common theme of having a body parts being different characters but all a part of the bigger picture is very interesting. Sauron's power, much like any administration, is weaker without followers. The Eye is the mind. The body of administration does the mind's work. If Smeagol was tortured in Mordor by anyone besides orcs, it was the nine wraiths who could be taken as the quote by Smeagol about the Dark Lord's fingers.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morzan29

Though many here have theorized against the Eye as being Sauron's only physical form, I would like to mention a curious idea that has come to mind. Imagine Sauron as the Necromancer having a wraith-like form in the Hobbit book but afterwards returned to his homeland of Mordor to build his armies and regain his power. I believe fully that the Eye is his shade's form manifested.

An interesting idea, but I just don't think that was the case. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien is a fascinating read. In a draft to Letter #246, Tolkien says of Sauron's form:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Why could he not have been indeed in human shape, having one large, red eye, Cyclops-like?

Originally Posted by Morzan29

No matter what Smeagol said of his torture in Mordor, this Eye is the form in which Sauron takes shape since any spirit of his order (like Gandalf) can choose their body. The Eye doesn't bark around orders to every Orc, man, and slave under his control. That would be rediculus. Much like any king or lord, his advisers do the dirty work and speak for him on common errands to his subjects.

While I do agree that Sauron largely used servants to obtain his goals, I think the Eye was merely the symbol chosen by Sauron to represent himself, mainly for his minions.
Aragorn in the books notes that Sauron does not allow his name to be "spelt or spoken" by his servants, and that's in keeping with his desire to be both king and god to them. Having a personal name by which he was known could, in his mind, have detracted from the aura of awe and terror he wished to inspire, Therefore, why not have a fearsome, but impersonal symbol for his troops to regard?

Originally Posted by Morzan29

The Eye is Sauron! The Mouth or Sauron speaks, the Eye sees all, and what i find very cool but no one seems to notice is that the nine Ring Wraiths are his NINE remaining fingers...... This common theme of having a body parts being different characters but all a part of the bigger picture is very interesting. Sauron's power, much like any administration, is weaker without followers. The Eye is the mind. The body of administration does the mind's work. If Smeagol was tortured in Mordor by anyone besides orcs, it was the nine wraiths who could be taken as the quote by Smeagol about the Dark Lord's fingers.

The connection between Sauron's nine fingers and the Nine Nazgûl is interesting, but I think just coincidence. The Nine Rings were obviously made long before Sauron lost his finger, along with his One Ring.
As for the body part analogy, how does that fit with Saruman and his White Hand?

And by the way, welcome to the Downs!

[Zigûr]

Sauron was never an Eye. I think Letter 246 and Gollum's remark put this beyond doubt. From the end of the Second Age onwards, when incarnate, he looked like an unnaturally large man with burning skin and nine fingers. The Eye was his symbol and how his psychic presence was perceived by those who encountered him in or through the unseen world or how its manifestation was interpreted by those who observed his power (see the flash from the summit of Barad-dûr witnessed by Sam in Mordor).

Sauron did not act through agents and emissaries like the Mouth of Sauron and the Nazgûl because he was some giant telepathic eye but rather because there was absolutely no need for him to ever put himself into personal danger by confronting his enemies directly. His (staged) abandonment of Dol Guldur is testament to this. By the Third Age it had become a time consuming and demanding process for Sauron to become incarnate: he had had to do so quickly after his old body was lost in Númenor, and now he had to do so again.

The Ainur could become incarnate however they pleased (Yavanna as a tree, for instance) but I don't think it at any stage behooved Sauron's interests to become incarnate as an isolated body part - he could not have worn his own ring had he recovered it, for starters. We know that he could no longer assume a fair and pleasing form; is it possible that, like Morgoth before him, his 'Dark Lord' body was now the only form he could take?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The Ainur could become incarnate however they pleased (Yavanna as a tree, for instance) but I don't think it at any stage behooved Sauron's interests to become incarnate as an isolated body part - he could not have worn his own ring had he recovered it, for starters.

Indeed. The texts you cite make this quite clear. See also the sketch by J. R. R. Tolkien of Sauron at http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:...n_-_Sauron.jpg .

See also Gollum’s description in The Two Towers where Gollum says, “He has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough.”

In the films Saruman tells Gandalf that Sauron isn’t yet able to “take physical form,” but that is an invention by the film writers.

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the Downs, Morzan!

–Now, about your idea: the thing is, you can’t justify a whole elaborate theory simply by referring back to your own belief in it. Yes, you can think what you like, and you can share your thoughts with us, and all that– but if you’re going to put them forward for serious consideration, as you seem to be, then I’m afraid you have to come up with actual supporting evidence.

(But please don’t think I’m picking on you– what I’ve just said is pretty much “Nerwen’s Standard Lecture to Newbies”.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The Eye was his symbol and how his psychic presence was perceived by those who encountered him in or through the unseen world or how its manifestation was interpreted by those who observed his power (see the flash from the summit of Barad-dûr witnessed by Sam in Mordor).

In line with that, I note that Frodo, as a Ring-bearer who had worn the Ring, seemed to have a special propensity to perceive the Eye. He saw it in the Mirror of Galadriel, and "felt" it while wearing the Ring on Amon Hen. Even earlier than that, while at Rivendell, it seems there was a psychic connection between Frodo and Sauron, via the Ring. Something as innocuous as looking at the night sky apparently put the Eye into his thoughts.

But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

FOTR The Ring Goes South

[Nerwen]

Something I forgot to say earlier–

Originally Posted by Morzan

If Smeagol was tortured in Mordor by anyone besides orcs, it was the nine wraiths who could be taken as the quote by Smeagol about the Dark Lord's fingers.

Morzan, apart from the obvious point that there are nine Ringwraiths, not four (not to mention the quote being from perhaps the least likely character to speak in such complex, obscure metaphors) here’s what he's actually talking about:

"...Oh yes, [said Gollum] there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon."

“That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built,” said Frodo. “It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.”

“Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,” said Gollum, shuddering. “And He hated Isildur’s city."

–The Black Gate is Closed.
As you see, I don’t think it can be reasonably claimed that’s anything but a concrete description.

That’s basically the problem with that whole side of the argument: it rests on assuming total literalism in some cases and the reverse in others, without ever looking at the context.

[Mornorngûr]

This is the single most stupid and ruinous thing ever done by Peter 'Scumbag' Jackson; depicting Sauron as a giant eyeball!.

What the frack man?!?!

The tower of Cirith Ungol is also said to have an eye in it by the way (when talking of the red light), but nobody confuses that description for something foolish.

Sauron was manifest and there need be no further discussion on the matter.

[blantyr]

"I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades."--Frodo

I interpreted "wheel of fire" as being the ring, not the eye. I always thought the 'eye', the ability to see far away, was drawn from the palantir of Minas Ithil. I won't spend the effort trying to correct alternate interpretations, there are too many of them.